Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] openwrt and lede - remerge proposal
Well hello there, On 2017-05-11 12:53, Stijn Segers wrote: While, like most people, I'm happy progress has been made towards a re-merge, there still seems quite some passive-agressive behaviour present coming from certain people championing OpenWrt [1] - which, from where I stand, seemed one of the reasons for starting LEDE. Stifling 'free' speech (recently, even to the point of removing messages about the pending re-merge on the OpenWrt forums) was another one; clearly, that one is still very much present as well. One could say old habits die hard, but it still feels like par for the course. What's up with that? You want to remerge with the LEDE project, yet you cannot tolerate any discussion about the actual process on the OpenWrt forums? That's some fine duplicity right there. I guess our vocabularies differ quite a bit, given I see no passive-aggressive statements there. I hope you just misunderstood the ways some things have been worded, as your mail overemphasized certain parts to twist the picture. I could very well say you're championing yourself but somehow I don't see mails from you sent to any lists nor me about questioning the forum moderators' behavior. Of course you could have also stepped up and volunteer to be one, but either of these would have required more energy then this mail. Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning if you're right, but you should also be a bit more empathetic and understand a few things. First of all, forum moderator rights have been given out as we didn't have time to do it ourselves. This also means that after the first few days we didn't spend our time on monitoring what people with moderator rights are doing. Second, and this might be harder to accept, but to a certain degree when the first reply to anything is "OpenWrt is dead, go with LEDE", your behavior might generate a hostile reply. Again, I'm not saying this is right, I'm saying this is standard human behavior. Back to my reply you love referring to: for me it seems you are the one who can't tolerate the discussion and would like to silence opinions (or how they can be expressed) you don't like. You might prefer baroque, I'm free to like renaissance. I can't help but feel very uneasy about this. I'm not implying people who stuck with OpenWrt don't want the best for the project and community (most do), but we all know LEDE was created to remedy exactly these (and other) shortcomings, which made OpenWrt languish to the point it had come to a standstill. Not only did LEDE try to tackle these problems; it has succeeded beyond expectation. Developers are more accessible, you can actually talk to people instead of getting your head bit off, contributions are booming, and the atmosphere overall is friendly and helpful. Discussion is encouraged, not repressed Soviet-style. The reasons of the fork have been discussed quite a few times, and if you think any project will be free of internal politics over a decade, you might want to look into the history of FOSS projects in general :) As the rest of your mail is mostly FUD, let's stick to facts if you consider replying. As the saying goes, in any relationship, there are three sides of the story: his side, her side and the truth. Both sides have hard feelings about certain topics, but this discussion started because we've decided to put those away. I can only ask you to try the same instead of sending mails like this. Thanks, Imre ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] openwrt and lede - remerge proposal
Of course you only see you numbered your notes the wrong way *after* you send your e-mail... The second [3] and [4] should have been [5] and [6] (see inline). Stijn Segers schreef op 2017-05-11 12:53: Hey guys, This might be a bit lengthy, but I should get this off my chest. I feel people are mostly looking at the upside and glossing over the negatives, which is a time bomb, and both projects do not deserve this. Paul's e-mail [0] already touches a lot of the relevant points, and it motivated me to add my own insights to what so far seems to have been a 'good news show' as we say in Dutch. While, like most people, I'm happy progress has been made towards a re-merge, there still seems quite some passive-agressive behaviour present coming from certain people championing OpenWrt [1] - which, from where I stand, seemed one of the reasons for starting LEDE. Stifling 'free' speech (recently, even to the point of removing messages about the pending re-merge on the OpenWrt forums) was another one; clearly, that one is still very much present as well. One could say old habits die hard, but it still feels like par for the course. What's up with that? You want to remerge with the LEDE project, yet you cannot tolerate any discussion about the actual process on the OpenWrt forums? That's some fine duplicity right there. I can't help but feel very uneasy about this. I'm not implying people who stuck with OpenWrt don't want the best for the project and community (most do), but we all know LEDE was created to remedy exactly these (and other) shortcomings, which made OpenWrt languish to the point it had come to a standstill. Not only did LEDE try to tackle these problems; it has succeeded beyond expectation. Developers are more accessible, you can actually talk to people instead of getting your head bit off, contributions are booming, and the atmosphere overall is friendly and helpful. Discussion is encouraged, not repressed Soviet-style. Some of the OpenWrt veterans come across as if they want the re-merge to be rushed, ignoring the actual issues that caused the fork in the first place. In itself, the desire to re-merge might a noble intent, if it didn't taste so much like driven by ulterior, more selfish motives. At the same time, while OpenWrt have little to offer beyond the OpenWrt name and legacy (which, at this point, feels more and more rotten to me, despite all the good things that once came from it), they field some pretty hard nos - very astonishing, given the position they are in: no to abandoning the OpenWrt name, no to abandoning the OpenWrt 'house style' [1]. Luckily, not everyone shares that same attitude [2], but it leaves a very bad taste. Almost like some people haven't learnt from the whole ordeal, and went back to their old ways pretty quickly. It feels pushy, and seems to boil down to 'it's all fine and dandy what you did, but it's still OpenWrt; don't get any illusions, you're not running the show'. This is very toxic, even more so when you realise that an overwhelming majority of active (!) OpenWrt developers either started or joined the LEDE project. Some of the vocal veterans sticking with OpenWrt hardly contribute any code anymore, and haven't done so in a while, or other valuable input, but they were most vocal when the split happened, pointing fingers and accusing people (ironically, people who *did* contribute code, actively maintained infrastructure, and had the interests of the project and community at heart). Again, they are yelling the hardest now, and waving that OpenWrt flag like there's no tomorrow. Imre nothing short of ignores the whole LEDE effort by stating explicitly that LEDE 17.01 (which Hauke put forward as an official OpenWrt 15.01 successor in an initial communication draft about the merge [3]) was NOT its successor [4]. Combined with his push for the OpenWrt name and keeping pretty much everything else OpenWrt (the dysfunctional homepage, the forums), it reeks of a coverup: LEDE was a hiccup, an anomaly, a gene malfunction, something that needs to be corrected and removed from the 'history books' as soon as possible, so it can all feel hunky dory again - and mostly, so it looks and smells like OpenWrt. By now, that smell has turned into quite a stench though. Luckily, the industry and a lot of end users seem to be impervious to it... For me, the OpenWrt name and project by now feels tainted. For months on end, you could browse the OpenWrt forums, or hang in #openwrt and never catch a dev or someone who knew what was (or wasn't) going on. Backends went down, sites disappeared, and it doesn't help to keep pointing to the OpenWrt name 'because the industry only knows OpenWrt', or 'because end users still don't know about LEDE'. Linux has been around for two decades now, and a lot of people with a computer still haven't heard of it. Before Mozilla, the internet only knew IE. Before Linux, sysadmins only knew Unices. Anyway, plenty of comparisons at hand - you get the
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] openwrt and lede - remerge proposal
On 05/11/2017 12:17 AM, Hauke Mehrtens wrote: > Thanks for moving this forward. > > On 05/08/2017 03:19 PM, John Crispin wrote: >> *) github > . >> >> - obsolete the lede github org after a grace period of 3-6 months > > As long as it does not cost us effort I would like to keep the lede > domains and github project up running for longer. This one is a bit tricky. On the one hand, people are referencing our Github repositories in their scripts and dependent projects, so we should keep it around at least for a while; on the other hand, Github doesn't allow disabling PRs (AFAIK), so deleting the project would give developers a clear signal where to contribute. > >> *) landing page >> - update the lede landing page to represent the openwrt name >> - update the landing page to have the same look & feel as the current >> openwrt landing page >> - point openwrt.org at the lede landing page > > I prefer the LEDE design, but with the news like content on the OpenWrt > page, but I do not really care and will not block the merge about this. > Is someone volunteering to prepare a design which also fulfills Imre's > requirements, I am also asking the non LEDE committers and non OpenWrt > core developers? I am not good at this. ;-) I realize this is bikeshedding, but I also very much prefer the LEDE design, it looks much more modern. In particular: - everything with a lot of text has a white background; generally colors are used sparingly - thin grey borders instead of thick black ones The OpenWrt forum design looks a bit better than the landing page, but it still feels too heavy due to the colored backgrounds. Matthias > > Hauke > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] openwrt and lede - remerge proposal
Hauke Mehrtens wrote on Wed May 10 15:17:37 PDT 2017: > On 05/08/2017 03:19 PM, John Crispin wrote: > > *) landing page > > - update the lede landing page to represent the openwrt name > > - update the landing page to have the same look & feel as the current > > openwrt landing page > > - point openwrt.org at the lede landing page > > I prefer the LEDE design, but with the news like content on the OpenWrt > page, but I do not really care and will not block the merge about this. My two cents to the design discussion: The old www.openwrt.org, wiki and downloads site design is rather dusty and looks like 1990s. The "news-like" content of the Openwrt www front page has been problematic due to the strange reason that the page contains a prominent "Headlines" lift box for OLD news but not for current news. Right now it highligts e.g. Backfire 10.03.1 release... Current news items are not listed in the Headlines-liftbox but just displayed in the wide middle column. But does anybody really scroll down that long page to find the next current news item below the topmost one? I have started to complain about that design already in 2011 so this opinion is not new... https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/10655 https://forum.openwrt.org/viewtopic.php?pid=313132#p313132 https://forum.openwrt.org/viewtopic.php?pid=314276#p314276 I hope that if any news-like content gets displayed on the new front page, the old design mistakes can be avoided. > > *) wiki / forum Regarding wiki and forum, I prefer the LEDE's design and the LEDE forum's modern functionality (user targeting, easy picture copy-paste, responsivity etc.) over the old Openwrt forum. That opinion is based on rather active forum usage, as based on the number of posts I am currently the #2 poster on the Openwrt forum and #1 on the LEDE forum. ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
