Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding
On 11/2/2017 1:44 PM, Hartmut Knaack wrote: I agree, that there were no warning signs on the public mailing list. As I said before, all history now; discussing it further serves no purpose. - Mike ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding
Mike Baker wrote on 02.11.2017 16:59: On 11/1/2017 5:18 PM, Hartmut Knaack wrote: This raises some more questions: which terms and conditions did people have to approve to get an @openwrt.org address? Where can these terms and conditions be found? Is every email sent from such an address supposed to be discussed and approved by the group before it gets sent? Furthermore: how many percent of "the group" needs to agree when it comes to disabling someones address? 50% or 67%? The issue is the use of an openwrt email address to make an announcement on behalf of openwrt stating that openwrt had become lede without ever discussing it. There were no warning signs, everybody from openwrt suddenly found out that there was a new project and they had been kicked out. - Mike I'm reading over Jows announcement over and over again, but can not see, where he would announce it on behalf of openwrt. He has been using his @openwrt.org, just like countless times before on the mailing list. I can also not find the claim, that LEDE would be the successor of openwrt, just that quite a lot of active developers would try to start a new project with a different focus on certain issues. I agree, that there were no warning signs on the public mailing list. But still, what have been the terms and conditions for project email addresses? How are sanctions decided? And if I pick up your statement, that using an openwrt email address implies that it is sent on behalf of openwrt (and thus, reviewed by the project members and acknowledged by the majority), there should just be one account for public relations (like version announcements, business communication on behalf of the project). I understand, that your feelings got hurt by the announcement, but your reaction was not professional. So, IMHO you messed up, now deal with it. Thanks, Hartmut ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding
On 11/1/2017 5:18 PM, Hartmut Knaack wrote: This raises some more questions: which terms and conditions did people have to approve to get an @openwrt.org address? Where can these terms and conditions be found? Is every email sent from such an address supposed to be discussed and approved by the group before it gets sent? Furthermore: how many percent of "the group" needs to agree when it comes to disabling someones address? 50% or 67%? The issue is the use of an openwrt email address to make an announcement on behalf of openwrt stating that openwrt had become lede without ever discussing it. There were no warning signs, everybody from openwrt suddenly found out that there was a new project and they had been kicked out. - Mike ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding
On 10/26/2017 09:05 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > Hannu Nymanwrites: > >> Zoltan HERPAI kirjoitti 26.10.2017 klo 18:41: >>> + - >>> + * 2 oz. Orange Juice Combine all juices in a >>> + * 2 oz. Pineapple Juice tall glass filled with >>> + * 2 oz. Grapefruit Juice ice, stir well. >>> + * 2 oz. Cranberry Juice >>> + - >> >> >> Still promoting the drink recipe although the voting is clearly going against >> release names and also all given feedback about drinks has been negative? > > I incidentally have always liked the in-your-face anti-establishment > flair of using codenames based on alcoholic beverages. The drink meme > beats the hell out of corporate blandness with selecting codenames out > of a marketing jar - "Project Olympus!", and is easier to remember than > 17.X.Y. > > "Blurry fish butt" I think was (until recently) a codename for the linux > kernel. > > and I've joked elsewhere that I'd like a codename named "green goddess". > > https://www.allbud.com/marijuana-strains/sativa-dominant-hybrid/green-goddess > >> Please get rid of it. It makes the whole thing looks adolescent. > > And replace it with what? (where was the voting?) The vote happened here: http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/lede-adm/2017-October/000636.html I am also for removing this, without the code names it does not makes any sense. This banner is the first thing companies change to add they own brand. If you want to annoy them, use this license in some important part: ;-) WTFPL (Do What the Fuck You Want To Public License) Hauke ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding
Philip Prindeville wrote on 28.10.2017 23:20: Hi all, Does it seem to anyone else that we’re making this more complicated than it needs to be? If one of the goals we’re going for from here on out is “equality”, then a basic litmus test to be applied to any action might be “does this get us closer to a level playing field, or further away”? Since not everyone gets an @openwrt.org email address, I think the answer to “can we use @openwrt.org email addresses in SOB’s?” is by extension, “no, because it doesn’t get us closer to a level playing field." We don’t need to argue the finer points of the letter of the law if the spirit of the law is already adequately clear. -Philip Full Ack! And in addition, from my point of view, the openwrt mail service got seriously tainted, when the early LEDE founders got their @openwrt.org accounts deactivated without prior notice. What is it worth having such an address in a SOB, if you can't trust that it will last? Thanks, Hartmut ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding
Hi all, Does it seem to anyone else that we’re making this more complicated than it needs to be? If one of the goals we’re going for from here on out is “equality”, then a basic litmus test to be applied to any action might be “does this get us closer to a level playing field, or further away”? Since not everyone gets an @openwrt.org email address, I think the answer to “can we use @openwrt.org email addresses in SOB’s?” is by extension, “no, because it doesn’t get us closer to a level playing field." We don’t need to argue the finer points of the letter of the law if the spirit of the law is already adequately clear. -Philip > On Oct 28, 2017, at 10:56 AM, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote: > > Dear Florian, > > Seems the discussion that was raised on using a personal openwrt address in a > SOB does not do much good so far and it is certainly not my intention to go > against rule #12; I would be sorry if I did. The question I raised is, > although about personal addresses, absolutely not aimed at anyone personally. > > Your thorough reading of the rules makes sense: the future tense of rule #10 > might be interpreted as to mean that existing addresses are exempted. But the > principal reason, equality, mentioned in that very same rule for not offering > (new) accounts under the openwrt domain, is by its sheer nature not > restricted to the future. The wording in the remerge rules tries to leave > some fair lapse for existing accounts, but using that space to the (maximum) > extend that a strict reading of the words would allow, does not seem right. > Usage for the purpose of (still) receiving mail is reasonable, using it > actively for sending mail is ... more complicated. > > On your question whether I purposely did not mention the restriction on > adherence to trademark policy and FOSS purpose, the answer is simple: it did > not seem relevant in this case (there is no reason to believe that the SOB > violated that rule). > > I do not think this issue warrants much more discussion as most that's > relevant has probably been said and the relevance is relative. > It's up to you guys to decide want you want, to weight the odds, regards from > a by-stander, > Paul ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding
Dear Florian, Seems the discussion that was raised on using a personal openwrt address in a SOB does not do much good so far and it is certainly not my intention to go against rule #12; I would be sorry if I did. The question I raised is, although about personal addresses, absolutely not aimed at anyone personally. Your thorough reading of the rules makes sense: the future tense of rule #10 might be interpreted as to mean that existing addresses are exempted. But the principal reason, equality, mentioned in that very same rule for not offering (new) accounts under the openwrt domain, is by its sheer nature not restricted to the future. The wording in the remerge rules tries to leave some fair lapse for existing accounts, but using that space to the (maximum) extend that a strict reading of the words would allow, does not seem right. Usage for the purpose of (still) receiving mail is reasonable, using it actively for sending mail is ... more complicated. On your question whether I purposely did not mention the restriction on adherence to trademark policy and FOSS purpose, the answer is simple: it did not seem relevant in this case (there is no reason to believe that the SOB violated that rule). I do not think this issue warrants much more discussion as most that's relevant has probably been said and the relevance is relative. It's up to you guys to decide want you want, to weight the odds, regards from a by-stander, Paul > Op 27 okt. 2017, om 21:54 heeft Florian Fainellihet > volgende geschreven: > > On 10/27/2017 02:34 AM, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote: >> Dear Imre, >> >> On the info for the version of the patch: my error, must have overlooked the >> included version info, it is indeed included. >> >> About the use of openwrt email addresses in the SOB: >> This has been discussed before, and the arguments against using an openwrt >> mail address as a personal address haven't vanished. >> The address in the SOB is meant to identify a contributor, most likely a >> natural person, not some entity of the openwrt project. Usage of an openwrt >> mail address suggests that the person using that address has another >> position in the project than those that use mail addresses not within the >> openwrt.org domain, which does not go well with LEDE rules. >> >> IIRC, during discussions on the remerge, the following compromis was >> reached: usage of personal openwrt addresses wasn't ruled out completely, >> but only in passive sense, as a means to keep receiving mail on the address >> and active usage for personal business is not allowed. John remerge proposal >> v3 states clearly: >> - mail addresses may under no conditions be used for any personal business, >> consultancy, applying for jobs, ... purposes > > Did you purposely omit the next bullet item that says? > > - any mail sent from an openwrt.org account needs to adhere the > trademark policy and should only be used for FOSS purposes > > Link: > http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/lede-adm/2017-May/000517.html > >> >> As a mail address in a SOB is a personal address, is meant to be that, using >> an openwrt address in a SOB goes directly against the agreed on rules, and >> certainly against the spirit of the LEDE rules that have proven to be >> successful in making the project getting traction and commitment. > > LEDE project rule #10 does only stipulate that new email addresses will > not be given away on the premises of and privacy and equality: > > https://lede-project.org/rules > > 10. The project will not offer email accounts under its project domain > for privacy and equality reasons. > > > That sentence is written with the future tense, and therefore does not > try to impose or specify anything with respect to emails given before > (so in the past). > > Therefore, my reading of the LEDE project rules and the remerge proposal > makes me so inclined as to think that Imre is not in direct violation of > the LEDE project rules regarding the use of an @openwrt.org email > contributor for FOSS perspectives. > > Quite frankly, if the goal is just to give Zoltan and Imre a hard time > and nitpick on everything possible just to delay (purposely or not) the > remerge, then you are doing a great job at it, but this goes against > rule #12. > >> Paul >> >> >> >> >>> Op 26 okt. 2017, om 18:32 heeft Imre Kaloz het volgende >>> geschreven: >>> >>> Hi Paul, >>> >>> On 2017-10-26 18:16, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote: Please, could you add some info on what has changed with the new version of the patch ? And, it would be appreciated when the SOB would not use an openwrt.org mail address (assuming Imre has another suitable mail available). Paul > Op 26 okt. 2017, om 17:41 heeft Zoltan HERPAI > het volgende geschreven: > > Given that we've decided to sail under the same flag for > the
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding
On 10/27/2017 02:34 AM, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote: > Dear Imre, > > On the info for the version of the patch: my error, must have overlooked the > included version info, it is indeed included. > > About the use of openwrt email addresses in the SOB: > This has been discussed before, and the arguments against using an openwrt > mail address as a personal address haven't vanished. > The address in the SOB is meant to identify a contributor, most likely a > natural person, not some entity of the openwrt project. Usage of an openwrt > mail address suggests that the person using that address has another position > in the project than those that use mail addresses not within the openwrt.org > domain, which does not go well with LEDE rules. > > IIRC, during discussions on the remerge, the following compromis was reached: > usage of personal openwrt addresses wasn't ruled out completely, but only in > passive sense, as a means to keep receiving mail on the address and active > usage for personal business is not allowed. John remerge proposal v3 states > clearly: > - mail addresses may under no conditions be used for any personal business, > consultancy, applying for jobs, ... purposes Did you purposely omit the next bullet item that says? - any mail sent from an openwrt.org account needs to adhere the trademark policy and should only be used for FOSS purposes Link: http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/lede-adm/2017-May/000517.html > > As a mail address in a SOB is a personal address, is meant to be that, using > an openwrt address in a SOB goes directly against the agreed on rules, and > certainly against the spirit of the LEDE rules that have proven to be > successful in making the project getting traction and commitment. LEDE project rule #10 does only stipulate that new email addresses will not be given away on the premises of and privacy and equality: https://lede-project.org/rules 10. The project will not offer email accounts under its project domain for privacy and equality reasons. That sentence is written with the future tense, and therefore does not try to impose or specify anything with respect to emails given before (so in the past). Therefore, my reading of the LEDE project rules and the remerge proposal makes me so inclined as to think that Imre is not in direct violation of the LEDE project rules regarding the use of an @openwrt.org email contributor for FOSS perspectives. Quite frankly, if the goal is just to give Zoltan and Imre a hard time and nitpick on everything possible just to delay (purposely or not) the remerge, then you are doing a great job at it, but this goes against rule #12. > Paul > > > > >> Op 26 okt. 2017, om 18:32 heeft Imre Kalozhet volgende >> geschreven: >> >> Hi Paul, >> >> On 2017-10-26 18:16, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote: >>> Please, could you add some info on what has changed with the new version of >>> the patch ? >>> And, it would be appreciated when the SOB would not use an openwrt.org mail >>> address (assuming Imre has another suitable mail available). >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> Op 26 okt. 2017, om 17:41 heeft Zoltan HERPAI het volgende geschreven: Given that we've decided to sail under the same flag for the benefit of the whole community, and acknowledge the achievements of the LEDE project, let's start the final steps of the merge. The git and other sources are untouched until the infra merge. v2: - dismiss bugtracker and forum change - update uhttpd cert gen - update banner - update busybox NSLOOKUP patch Signed-off-by: Zoltan HERPAI Signed-off-by: Imre Kaloz >> >> Please find the changes listed in the description, but left it in above as >> well. As for using another email address, I won't use my personal one for >> this as I don't use this for that, simply as that. This is fully following >> what the merge agreement that has been voted for and got accepted defined. >> >> >> Best, >> Imre >> > > > ___ > Lede-dev mailing list > lede-...@lists.infradead.org > http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev > -- Florian ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding
On 27 October 2017 at 00:32, Imre Kalozwrote: > Hi Paul, > > On 2017-10-26 18:16, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote: > > Please, could you add some info on what has changed with the new version of > the patch ? > And, it would be appreciated when the SOB would not use an openwrt.org mail > address (assuming Imre has another suitable mail available). > > Paul > > Op 26 okt. 2017, om 17:41 heeft Zoltan HERPAI het volgende > geschreven: > > Given that we've decided to sail under the same flag for > the benefit of the whole community, and acknowledge the > achievements of the LEDE project, let's start the final > steps of the merge. > > The git and other sources are untouched until the infra merge. > > v2: - dismiss bugtracker and forum change >- update uhttpd cert gen >- update banner >- update busybox NSLOOKUP patch > > Signed-off-by: Zoltan HERPAI > Signed-off-by: Imre Kaloz > > > Please find the changes listed in the description, but left it in above as > well. As for using another email address, I won't use my personal one for > this as I don't use this for that, simply as that. This is fully following > what the merge agreement that has been voted for and got accepted defined. > > > Best, > > Imre According to the first clause of v3 of the proposal, current LEDE project rules will be adopted into the merged OpenWrt project and that means we need to either start another voting round to reword the project rules on email accounts or the proposal itself contradicts/invalidates itself. Now we are having much fun with the rules... yousong ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding
Hannu Nymanwrote: > Zoltan HERPAI kirjoitti 26.10.2017 klo 18:41: > > + - > > + * 2 oz. Orange Juice Combine all juices in a > > + * 2 oz. Pineapple Juice tall glass filled with > > + * 2 oz. Grapefruit Juice ice, stir well. > > + * 2 oz. Cranberry Juice > > + - > > > Still promoting the drink recipe although the voting is clearly > going against release names and also all given feedback about > drinks has been negative? Not all. I quite like the drinks, I was just strongly against going back to the old name. right now. When DD was chosen it was far from 100% one way or the other too. Cheers, Karl P signature.html Description: OpenPGP Digital Signature ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding
Zoltan HERPAI kirjoitti 26.10.2017 klo 18:41: + - + * 2 oz. Orange Juice Combine all juices in a + * 2 oz. Pineapple Juice tall glass filled with + * 2 oz. Grapefruit Juice ice, stir well. + * 2 oz. Cranberry Juice + - Still promoting the drink recipe although the voting is clearly going against release names and also all given feedback about drinks has been negative? Please get rid of it. It makes the whole thing looks adolescent. ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding
Hi Paul, On 2017-10-26 18:16, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote: Please, could you add some info on what has changed with the new version of the patch ? And, it would be appreciated when the SOB would not use an openwrt.org mail address (assuming Imre has another suitable mail available). Paul Op 26 okt. 2017, om 17:41 heeft Zoltan HERPAIhet volgende geschreven: Given that we've decided to sail under the same flag for the benefit of the whole community, and acknowledge the achievements of the LEDE project, let's start the final steps of the merge. The git and other sources are untouched until the infra merge. v2: - dismiss bugtracker and forum change - update uhttpd cert gen - update banner - update busybox NSLOOKUP patch Signed-off-by: Zoltan HERPAI Signed-off-by: Imre Kaloz Please find the changes listed in the description, but left it in above as well. As for using another email address, I won't use my personal one for this as I don't use this for that, simply as that. This is fully following what the merge agreement that has been voted for and got accepted defined. Best, Imre ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel