Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding

[Mike Baker]

On 11/2/2017 1:44 PM, Hartmut Knaack wrote:

I agree, that there were no warning signs on the public mailing list.

As I said before, all history now; discussing it further serves no purpose.

- Mike
___
openwrt-devel mailing list
openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org
https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel

Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding

[Hartmut Knaack]

Mike Baker wrote on 02.11.2017 16:59:

On 11/1/2017 5:18 PM, Hartmut Knaack wrote:


This raises some more questions: which terms and conditions did people
have
to approve to get an @openwrt.org address? Where can these terms and
conditions be found? Is every email sent from such an address supposed to
be discussed and approved by the group before it gets sent?
Furthermore: how many percent of "the group" needs to agree when it comes
to disabling someones address? 50% or 67%?

The issue is the use of an openwrt email address to make an announcement
on behalf of openwrt stating that openwrt had become lede without ever
discussing it. There were no warning signs, everybody from openwrt
suddenly found out that there was a new project and they had been kicked
out.

- Mike



I'm reading over Jows announcement over and over again, but can not see,
where he would announce it on behalf of openwrt. He has been using his
@openwrt.org, just like countless times before on the mailing list.
I can also not find the claim, that LEDE would be the successor of openwrt,
just that quite a lot of active developers would try to start a new project
with a different focus on certain issues.
I agree, that there were no warning signs on the public mailing list. But
still, what have been the terms and conditions for project email addresses?
How are sanctions decided?
And if I pick up your statement, that using an openwrt email address
implies that it is sent on behalf of openwrt (and thus, reviewed by the
project members and acknowledged by the majority), there should just be one
account for public relations (like version announcements, business
communication on behalf of the project).
I understand, that your feelings got hurt by the announcement, but your
reaction was not professional. So, IMHO you messed up, now deal with it.
Thanks,

Hartmut
___
openwrt-devel mailing list
openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org
https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel

Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding

[Mike Baker]

On 11/1/2017 5:18 PM, Hartmut Knaack wrote:

This raises some more questions: which terms and conditions did people 
have

to approve to get an @openwrt.org address? Where can these terms and
conditions be found? Is every email sent from such an address supposed to
be discussed and approved by the group before it gets sent?
Furthermore: how many percent of "the group" needs to agree when it comes
to disabling someones address? 50% or 67%?
The issue is the use of an openwrt email address to make an announcement 
on behalf of openwrt stating that openwrt had become lede without ever 
discussing it. There were no warning signs, everybody from openwrt 
suddenly found out that there was a new project and they had been kicked 
out.


- Mike
___
openwrt-devel mailing list
openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org
https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel

Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding

[Hauke Mehrtens]

On 10/26/2017 09:05 PM, Dave Taht wrote:
> Hannu Nyman  writes:
> 
>> Zoltan HERPAI kirjoitti 26.10.2017 klo 18:41:
>>> + -
>>> +  * 2 oz. Orange Juice Combine all juices in a
>>> +  * 2 oz. Pineapple Juice  tall glass filled with
>>> +  * 2 oz. Grapefruit Juice ice, stir well.
>>> +  * 2 oz. Cranberry Juice
>>> + -
>>
>>
>> Still promoting the drink recipe although the voting is clearly going against
>> release names and also all given feedback about drinks has been negative?
> 
> I incidentally have always liked the in-your-face anti-establishment
> flair of using codenames based on alcoholic beverages. The drink meme
> beats the hell out of corporate blandness with selecting codenames out
> of a marketing jar - "Project Olympus!", and is easier to remember than
> 17.X.Y.
> 
> "Blurry fish butt" I think was (until recently) a codename for the linux 
> kernel.
> 
> and I've joked elsewhere that I'd like a codename named "green goddess".
> 
> https://www.allbud.com/marijuana-strains/sativa-dominant-hybrid/green-goddess
> 
>> Please get rid of it. It makes the whole thing looks adolescent.
> 
> And replace it with what? (where was the voting?)
The vote happened here:
http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/lede-adm/2017-October/000636.html

I am also for removing this, without the code names it does not makes
any sense.

This banner is the first thing companies change to add they own brand.

If you want to annoy them, use this license in some important part: ;-)
WTFPL (Do What the Fuck You Want To Public License)


Hauke
___
openwrt-devel mailing list
openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org
https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel

Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding

[Hartmut Knaack]

Philip Prindeville wrote on 28.10.2017 23:20:

Hi all,

Does it seem to anyone else that we’re making this more complicated than it 
needs to be?

If one of the goals we’re going for from here on out is “equality”, then a 
basic litmus test to be applied to any action might be “does this get us closer 
to a level playing field, or further away”?

Since not everyone gets an @openwrt.org email address, I think the answer to “can we 
use @openwrt.org email addresses in SOB’s?” is by extension, “no, because it doesn’t 
get us closer to a level playing field."

We don’t need to argue the finer points of the letter of the law if the spirit 
of the law is already adequately clear.

-Philip



Full Ack!
And in addition, from my point of view, the openwrt mail service got
seriously tainted, when the early LEDE founders got their @openwrt.org
accounts deactivated without prior notice. What is it worth having such
an address in a SOB, if you can't trust that it will last?
Thanks,

Hartmut
___
openwrt-devel mailing list
openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org
https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel

Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding

[Philip Prindeville]

Hi all,

Does it seem to anyone else that we’re making this more complicated than it 
needs to be?

If one of the goals we’re going for from here on out is “equality”, then a 
basic litmus test to be applied to any action might be “does this get us closer 
to a level playing field, or further away”?

Since not everyone gets an @openwrt.org email address, I think the answer to 
“can we use @openwrt.org email addresses in SOB’s?” is by extension, “no, 
because it doesn’t get us closer to a level playing field."

We don’t need to argue the finer points of the letter of the law if the spirit 
of the law is already adequately clear.

-Philip


> On Oct 28, 2017, at 10:56 AM, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote:
> 
> Dear Florian,
> 
> Seems the discussion that was raised on using a personal openwrt address in a 
> SOB does not do much good so far and it is certainly not my intention to go 
> against rule #12; I would be sorry if I did. The question I raised is, 
> although about personal addresses, absolutely not aimed at anyone personally.
> 
> Your thorough reading of the rules makes sense: the future tense of rule #10 
> might be interpreted as to mean that existing addresses are exempted. But the 
> principal reason, equality, mentioned in that very same rule for not offering 
> (new) accounts under the openwrt domain, is by its sheer nature not 
> restricted to the future. The wording in the remerge rules tries to leave 
> some fair lapse for existing accounts, but using that space to the (maximum) 
> extend that a strict reading of the words would allow, does not seem right. 
> Usage for the purpose of (still) receiving mail is reasonable, using it 
> actively for sending mail is ... more complicated.
> 
> On your question whether I purposely did not mention the restriction on 
> adherence to trademark policy and FOSS purpose, the answer is simple: it did 
> not seem relevant in this case (there is no reason to believe that the SOB 
> violated that rule).
> 
> I do not think this issue warrants much more discussion as most that's 
> relevant has probably been said and the relevance is relative.
> It's up to you guys to decide want you want, to weight the odds, regards from 
> a by-stander,
> Paul
___
openwrt-devel mailing list
openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org
https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel

Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding

[por]

Dear Florian,

Seems the discussion that was raised on using a personal openwrt address in a 
SOB does not do much good so far and it is certainly not my intention to go 
against rule #12; I would be sorry if I did. The question I raised is, although 
about personal addresses, absolutely not aimed at anyone personally.

Your thorough reading of the rules makes sense: the future tense of rule #10 
might be interpreted as to mean that existing addresses are exempted. But the 
principal reason, equality, mentioned in that very same rule for not offering 
(new) accounts under the openwrt domain, is by its sheer nature not restricted 
to the future. The wording in the remerge rules tries to leave some fair lapse 
for existing accounts, but using that space to the (maximum) extend that a 
strict reading of the words would allow, does not seem right. Usage for the 
purpose of (still) receiving mail is reasonable, using it actively for sending 
mail is ... more complicated.

On your question whether I purposely did not mention the restriction on 
adherence to trademark policy and FOSS purpose, the answer is simple: it did 
not seem relevant in this case (there is no reason to believe that the SOB 
violated that rule).

I do not think this issue warrants much more discussion as most that's relevant 
has probably been said and the relevance is relative.
It's up to you guys to decide want you want, to weight the odds, regards from a 
by-stander,
Paul


> Op 27 okt. 2017, om 21:54 heeft Florian Fainelli  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> On 10/27/2017 02:34 AM, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote:
>> Dear Imre,
>> 
>> On the info for the version of the patch: my error, must have overlooked the 
>> included version info, it is indeed included.
>> 
>> About the use of openwrt email addresses in the SOB:
>> This has been discussed before, and the arguments against using an openwrt 
>> mail address as a personal address haven't vanished.
>> The address in the SOB is meant to identify a contributor, most likely a 
>> natural person, not some entity of the openwrt project. Usage of an openwrt 
>> mail address suggests that the person using that address has another 
>> position in the project than those that use mail addresses not within the 
>> openwrt.org domain, which does not go well with LEDE rules.
>> 
>> IIRC, during discussions on the remerge, the following compromis was 
>> reached: usage of personal openwrt addresses wasn't ruled out completely, 
>> but only in passive sense, as a means to keep receiving mail on the address 
>> and active usage for personal business is not allowed. John remerge proposal 
>> v3 states clearly:
>> - mail addresses may under no conditions be used for any personal business, 
>> consultancy, applying for jobs, ... purposes
> 
> Did you purposely omit the next bullet item that says?
> 
> - any mail sent from an openwrt.org account needs to adhere the
> trademark policy and should only be used for FOSS purposes
> 
> Link:
> http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/lede-adm/2017-May/000517.html
> 
>> 
>> As a mail address in a SOB is a personal address, is meant to be that, using 
>> an openwrt address in a SOB goes directly against the agreed on rules, and 
>> certainly against the spirit of the LEDE rules that have proven to be 
>> successful in making the project getting traction and commitment.
> 
> LEDE project rule #10 does only stipulate that new email addresses will
> not be given away on the premises of and privacy and equality:
> 
> https://lede-project.org/rules
> 
> 10. The project will not offer email accounts under its project domain
> for privacy and equality reasons.
> 
> 
> That sentence is written with the future tense, and therefore does not
> try to impose or specify anything with respect to emails given before
> (so in the past).
> 
> Therefore, my reading of the LEDE project rules and the remerge proposal
> makes me so inclined as to think that Imre is not in direct violation of
> the LEDE project rules regarding the use of an @openwrt.org email
> contributor for FOSS perspectives.
> 
> Quite frankly, if the goal is just to give Zoltan and Imre a hard time
> and nitpick on everything possible just to delay (purposely or not) the
> remerge, then you are doing a great job at it, but this goes against
> rule #12.
> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Op 26 okt. 2017, om 18:32 heeft Imre Kaloz  het volgende 
>>> geschreven:
>>> 
>>> Hi Paul,
>>> 
>>> On 2017-10-26 18:16, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote:
 Please, could you add some info on what has changed with the new version 
 of the patch ?
 And, it would be appreciated when the SOB would not use an openwrt.org 
 mail address (assuming Imre has another suitable mail available).
 
 Paul
 
 
> Op 26 okt. 2017, om 17:41 heeft Zoltan HERPAI 
> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> Given that we've decided to sail under the same flag for
> the 

Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding

[Florian Fainelli]

On 10/27/2017 02:34 AM, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote:
> Dear Imre,
> 
> On the info for the version of the patch: my error, must have overlooked the 
> included version info, it is indeed included.
> 
> About the use of openwrt email addresses in the SOB:
> This has been discussed before, and the arguments against using an openwrt 
> mail address as a personal address haven't vanished.
> The address in the SOB is meant to identify a contributor, most likely a 
> natural person, not some entity of the openwrt project. Usage of an openwrt 
> mail address suggests that the person using that address has another position 
> in the project than those that use mail addresses not within the openwrt.org 
> domain, which does not go well with LEDE rules.
> 
> IIRC, during discussions on the remerge, the following compromis was reached: 
> usage of personal openwrt addresses wasn't ruled out completely, but only in 
> passive sense, as a means to keep receiving mail on the address and active 
> usage for personal business is not allowed. John remerge proposal v3 states 
> clearly:
> - mail addresses may under no conditions be used for any personal business, 
> consultancy, applying for jobs, ... purposes

Did you purposely omit the next bullet item that says?

- any mail sent from an openwrt.org account needs to adhere the
trademark policy and should only be used for FOSS purposes

Link:
http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/lede-adm/2017-May/000517.html

> 
> As a mail address in a SOB is a personal address, is meant to be that, using 
> an openwrt address in a SOB goes directly against the agreed on rules, and 
> certainly against the spirit of the LEDE rules that have proven to be 
> successful in making the project getting traction and commitment.

LEDE project rule #10 does only stipulate that new email addresses will
not be given away on the premises of and privacy and equality:

https://lede-project.org/rules

10. The project will not offer email accounts under its project domain
for privacy and equality reasons.


That sentence is written with the future tense, and therefore does not
try to impose or specify anything with respect to emails given before
(so in the past).

Therefore, my reading of the LEDE project rules and the remerge proposal
makes me so inclined as to think that Imre is not in direct violation of
the LEDE project rules regarding the use of an @openwrt.org email
contributor for FOSS perspectives.

Quite frankly, if the goal is just to give Zoltan and Imre a hard time
and nitpick on everything possible just to delay (purposely or not) the
remerge, then you are doing a great job at it, but this goes against
rule #12.

> Paul
> 
> 
>  
> 
>> Op 26 okt. 2017, om 18:32 heeft Imre Kaloz  het volgende 
>> geschreven:
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> On 2017-10-26 18:16, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote:
>>> Please, could you add some info on what has changed with the new version of 
>>> the patch ?
>>> And, it would be appreciated when the SOB would not use an openwrt.org mail 
>>> address (assuming Imre has another suitable mail available).
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
 Op 26 okt. 2017, om 17:41 heeft Zoltan HERPAI 
  het volgende geschreven:

 Given that we've decided to sail under the same flag for
 the benefit of the whole community, and acknowledge the
 achievements of the LEDE project, let's start the final
 steps of the merge.

 The git and other sources are untouched until the infra merge.

 v2: - dismiss bugtracker and forum change
- update uhttpd cert gen
- update banner
- update busybox NSLOOKUP patch

 Signed-off-by: Zoltan HERPAI 
 

 Signed-off-by: Imre Kaloz 
 



>>
>> Please find the changes listed in the description, but left it in above as 
>> well. As for using another email address, I won't use my personal one for 
>> this as I don't use this for that, simply as that. This is fully following 
>> what the merge agreement that has been voted for and got accepted defined.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> Imre
>>
> 
> 
> ___
> Lede-dev mailing list
> lede-...@lists.infradead.org
> http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/lede-dev
> 


-- 
Florian
___
openwrt-devel mailing list
openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org
https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel

Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding

[Yousong Zhou]

On 27 October 2017 at 00:32, Imre Kaloz  wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> On 2017-10-26 18:16, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote:
>
> Please, could you add some info on what has changed with the new version of
> the patch ?
> And, it would be appreciated when the SOB would not use an openwrt.org mail
> address (assuming Imre has another suitable mail available).
>
> Paul
>
> Op 26 okt. 2017, om 17:41 heeft Zoltan HERPAI  het volgende
> geschreven:
>
> Given that we've decided to sail under the same flag for
> the benefit of the whole community, and acknowledge the
> achievements of the LEDE project, let's start the final
> steps of the merge.
>
> The git and other sources are untouched until the infra merge.
>
> v2: - dismiss bugtracker and forum change
>- update uhttpd cert gen
>- update banner
>- update busybox NSLOOKUP patch
>
> Signed-off-by: Zoltan HERPAI 
> Signed-off-by: Imre Kaloz 
>
>
> Please find the changes listed in the description, but left it in above as
> well. As for using another email address, I won't use my personal one for
> this as I don't use this for that, simply as that. This is fully following
> what the merge agreement that has been voted for and got accepted defined.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Imre

According to the first clause of v3 of the proposal, current LEDE
project rules will be adopted into the merged OpenWrt project and that
means we need to either start another voting round to reword the
project rules on email accounts or the proposal itself
contradicts/invalidates itself.  Now we are having much fun with the
rules...

yousong
___
openwrt-devel mailing list
openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org
https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel

Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding

[Karl Palsson]

Hannu Nyman  wrote:
> Zoltan HERPAI kirjoitti 26.10.2017 klo 18:41:
> > + -
> > +  * 2 oz. Orange Juice Combine all juices in a
> > +  * 2 oz. Pineapple Juice  tall glass filled with
> > +  * 2 oz. Grapefruit Juice ice, stir well.
> > +  * 2 oz. Cranberry Juice
> > + -
> 
> 
> Still promoting the drink recipe although the voting is clearly
> going against release names and also all given feedback about
> drinks has been negative?

Not all.  I quite like the drinks, I was just strongly against going back to 
the old name. right now.  

When DD was chosen it was far from 100% one way or the other too.

Cheers,
Karl P



signature.html
Description: OpenPGP Digital Signature
___
openwrt-devel mailing list
openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org
https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel

Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding

[Hannu Nyman]

Zoltan HERPAI kirjoitti 26.10.2017 klo 18:41:

+ -
+  * 2 oz. Orange Juice Combine all juices in a
+  * 2 oz. Pineapple Juice  tall glass filled with
+  * 2 oz. Grapefruit Juice ice, stir well.
+  * 2 oz. Cranberry Juice
+ -



Still promoting the drink recipe although the voting is clearly going against 
release names and also all given feedback about drinks has been negative?


Please get rid of it. It makes the whole thing looks adolescent.
___
openwrt-devel mailing list
openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org
https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel

Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] [PATCH v2] merge: add OpenWrt branding

[Imre Kaloz]

Hi Paul,

On 2017-10-26 18:16, p...@oranjevos.nl wrote:

Please, could you add some info on what has changed with the new version of the 
patch ?
And, it would be appreciated when the SOB would not use an openwrt.org mail 
address (assuming Imre has another suitable mail available).

Paul


Op 26 okt. 2017, om 17:41 heeft Zoltan HERPAI  het volgende 
geschreven:

Given that we've decided to sail under the same flag for
the benefit of the whole community, and acknowledge the
achievements of the LEDE project, let's start the final
steps of the merge.

The git and other sources are untouched until the infra merge.

v2: - dismiss bugtracker and forum change
- update uhttpd cert gen
- update banner
- update busybox NSLOOKUP patch

Signed-off-by: Zoltan HERPAI
Signed-off-by: Imre Kaloz



Please find the changes listed in the description, but left it in above 
as well. As for using another email address, I won't use my personal one 
for this as I don't use this for that, simply as that. This is fully 
following what the merge agreement that has been voted for and got 
accepted defined.



Best,

Imre


___
openwrt-devel mailing list
openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org
https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel