Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 15:42, Daniel Golle wrote: > > Hi Jonas, > > On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 03:48:29PM +0100, Daniel Golle wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 02:39:26PM +, Jonas Gorski wrote: > > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 14:21, Daniel Golle wrote: > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 01:17:34PM +, Jonas Gorski wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 11:42, Petr Štetiar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Golle [2019-01-07 10:03:09]: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > One. The MT7621 EVB. The TP-LINK RE350 v1 can probably be > > > > > > > converted to > > > > > > > a more sane flash partition layout to gain another megabyte or so. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've looked only at mt7621, so this was just example from one > > > > > > subtarget of > > > > > > ramips target. So I tend to believe, that there's quite more such > > > > > > cases hidden > > > > > > in the tree. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why specific devices? Wouldn't all devices with the resources > > > > > > > (which > > > > > > > boils down to !SMALL_FLASH) be potentially more useful with those > > > > > > > kernel features enabled? > > > > > > > > > > > > You currently can't use !SMALL_FLASH, because this is > > > > > > target/subtarget > > > > > > specific feature, not per device feature. I think, that in order to > > > > > > use this > > > > > > feature, you would need to convert/fix all devices like that > > > > > > TP-Link RE350 > > > > > > from all (sub)targets into tiny subtarget and then you could freely > > > > > > use > > > > > > !SMALL_FLASH. > > > > > > > > > > I agree with not abusing small_flash for that. It has a clear defined > > > > > meaning, and shouldn't have unrelated side effects. > > > > > > > > So what else would the SMALL_FLASH symbol be used for then? > > > > A quick grep reveals that currently already quite a few kernel config > > > > defaults are set according to SMALL_FLASH, see > > > > > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_SWAP > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Support for paging of anonymous > > > > memory (swap)" > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > > > -- > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_KALLSYMS > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Compile the kernel with symbol > > > > table information" > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > > > -- > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_DEBUG_INFO > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Compile the kernel with debug > > > > information" > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > > > -- > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_ELF_CORE > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Enable process core dump support" > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- select KERNEL_COREDUMP > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > > > ... > > > > > > Most of these option only influence the size of the kernel, and have > > > no further runtime side effects. Also small_flash has impact on the > > > compression options used. > > > > They sure do, cache size on small CPUs is a very finite resource > > and having a kernel with debug symbols will make things slower, of > > course. SWAP also makes every single malloc call more expensive and > > is just as well only useful on devices with block storage (ok, and > > zramswap, but lets not talk about that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think a new opt-in symbol for those targets with hardware > > > > > virtualization support and/or beefy enough cpus would make more sense. > > > > > Those virtualization options (probably) don't come for free, they will > > > > > have also a memory and performance impact even when not actively used. > > > > > How much that is (and if this assumption is true) would be nice to > > > > > have in the PR/patch for it. > > > > > > > > This is not about virtualization and none of the features selected > > > > requires any special hardware support apart from the few extra > > > > kilobytes of flash and memory. You are still right, it doesn't come > > > > all for free at runtime in terms of CPU cycles, but the impact is > > > > hardly measurable. > > > > > > > > But sure, I understand that this can be opt-in, so lets call it > > > > 'full_kernel' or something like that and have target maintainers > > > > decide themselves. In the picture I get after browsing through > > > > all targets, it would still end up such that > > > > full_kernel == !small_flash is true for all cases. > > > > > > "Full kernel" really has no real meaning and would describe > > > everything. The name should clearly describe the (non-default) feature > > > set it enables. > > > > But they are not even necessarily related, just closer to the vanilla > >
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
Hi, I lean towards enabling these features by default. With the eventual switch to 4.19, most 4M boards will fall of the cliff anyway. Regards, Jo signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
Hi Jonas, On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 03:48:29PM +0100, Daniel Golle wrote: > On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 02:39:26PM +, Jonas Gorski wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 14:21, Daniel Golle wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 01:17:34PM +, Jonas Gorski wrote: > > > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 11:42, Petr Štetiar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Golle [2019-01-07 10:03:09]: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > One. The MT7621 EVB. The TP-LINK RE350 v1 can probably be converted > > > > > > to > > > > > > a more sane flash partition layout to gain another megabyte or so. > > > > > > > > > > I've looked only at mt7621, so this was just example from one > > > > > subtarget of > > > > > ramips target. So I tend to believe, that there's quite more such > > > > > cases hidden > > > > > in the tree. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > Why specific devices? Wouldn't all devices with the resources (which > > > > > > boils down to !SMALL_FLASH) be potentially more useful with those > > > > > > kernel features enabled? > > > > > > > > > > You currently can't use !SMALL_FLASH, because this is target/subtarget > > > > > specific feature, not per device feature. I think, that in order to > > > > > use this > > > > > feature, you would need to convert/fix all devices like that TP-Link > > > > > RE350 > > > > > from all (sub)targets into tiny subtarget and then you could freely > > > > > use > > > > > !SMALL_FLASH. > > > > > > > > I agree with not abusing small_flash for that. It has a clear defined > > > > meaning, and shouldn't have unrelated side effects. > > > > > > So what else would the SMALL_FLASH symbol be used for then? > > > A quick grep reveals that currently already quite a few kernel config > > > defaults are set according to SMALL_FLASH, see > > > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_SWAP > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Support for paging of anonymous > > > memory (swap)" > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > > -- > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_KALLSYMS > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Compile the kernel with symbol > > > table information" > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > > -- > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_DEBUG_INFO > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Compile the kernel with debug > > > information" > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > > -- > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_ELF_CORE > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Enable process core dump support" > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- select KERNEL_COREDUMP > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > > ... > > > > Most of these option only influence the size of the kernel, and have > > no further runtime side effects. Also small_flash has impact on the > > compression options used. > > They sure do, cache size on small CPUs is a very finite resource > and having a kernel with debug symbols will make things slower, of > course. SWAP also makes every single malloc call more expensive and > is just as well only useful on devices with block storage (ok, and > zramswap, but lets not talk about that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think a new opt-in symbol for those targets with hardware > > > > virtualization support and/or beefy enough cpus would make more sense. > > > > Those virtualization options (probably) don't come for free, they will > > > > have also a memory and performance impact even when not actively used. > > > > How much that is (and if this assumption is true) would be nice to > > > > have in the PR/patch for it. > > > > > > This is not about virtualization and none of the features selected > > > requires any special hardware support apart from the few extra > > > kilobytes of flash and memory. You are still right, it doesn't come > > > all for free at runtime in terms of CPU cycles, but the impact is > > > hardly measurable. > > > > > > But sure, I understand that this can be opt-in, so lets call it > > > 'full_kernel' or something like that and have target maintainers > > > decide themselves. In the picture I get after browsing through > > > all targets, it would still end up such that > > > full_kernel == !small_flash is true for all cases. > > > > "Full kernel" really has no real meaning and would describe > > everything. The name should clearly describe the (non-default) feature > > set it enables. > > But they are not even necessarily related, just closer to the vanilla > default config which is used eg. by Debian and most other Linux distros > so projects like LVM2 started to rely on them. > My goal here is to bring modern generic kernel features into OpenWrt, > they are quite unrelated apart from being left out for space reasons > and because for a
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 02:39:26PM +, Jonas Gorski wrote: > On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 14:21, Daniel Golle wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 01:17:34PM +, Jonas Gorski wrote: > > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 11:42, Petr Štetiar wrote: > > > > > > > > Daniel Golle [2019-01-07 10:03:09]: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > One. The MT7621 EVB. The TP-LINK RE350 v1 can probably be converted to > > > > > a more sane flash partition layout to gain another megabyte or so. > > > > > > > > I've looked only at mt7621, so this was just example from one subtarget > > > > of > > > > ramips target. So I tend to believe, that there's quite more such cases > > > > hidden > > > > in the tree. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > > > > > > > > > Why specific devices? Wouldn't all devices with the resources (which > > > > > boils down to !SMALL_FLASH) be potentially more useful with those > > > > > kernel features enabled? > > > > > > > > You currently can't use !SMALL_FLASH, because this is target/subtarget > > > > specific feature, not per device feature. I think, that in order to use > > > > this > > > > feature, you would need to convert/fix all devices like that TP-Link > > > > RE350 > > > > from all (sub)targets into tiny subtarget and then you could freely use > > > > !SMALL_FLASH. > > > > > > I agree with not abusing small_flash for that. It has a clear defined > > > meaning, and shouldn't have unrelated side effects. > > > > So what else would the SMALL_FLASH symbol be used for then? > > A quick grep reveals that currently already quite a few kernel config > > defaults are set according to SMALL_FLASH, see > > > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_SWAP > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Support for paging of anonymous > > memory (swap)" > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > -- > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_KALLSYMS > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Compile the kernel with symbol table > > information" > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > -- > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_DEBUG_INFO > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Compile the kernel with debug > > information" > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > -- > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_ELF_CORE > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Enable process core dump support" > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- select KERNEL_COREDUMP > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > ... > > Most of these option only influence the size of the kernel, and have > no further runtime side effects. Also small_flash has impact on the > compression options used. They sure do, cache size on small CPUs is a very finite resource and having a kernel with debug symbols will make things slower, of course. SWAP also makes every single malloc call more expensive and is just as well only useful on devices with block storage (ok, and zramswap, but lets not talk about that). > > > > > > > > > I think a new opt-in symbol for those targets with hardware > > > virtualization support and/or beefy enough cpus would make more sense. > > > Those virtualization options (probably) don't come for free, they will > > > have also a memory and performance impact even when not actively used. > > > How much that is (and if this assumption is true) would be nice to > > > have in the PR/patch for it. > > > > This is not about virtualization and none of the features selected > > requires any special hardware support apart from the few extra > > kilobytes of flash and memory. You are still right, it doesn't come > > all for free at runtime in terms of CPU cycles, but the impact is > > hardly measurable. > > > > But sure, I understand that this can be opt-in, so lets call it > > 'full_kernel' or something like that and have target maintainers > > decide themselves. In the picture I get after browsing through > > all targets, it would still end up such that > > full_kernel == !small_flash is true for all cases. > > "Full kernel" really has no real meaning and would describe > everything. The name should clearly describe the (non-default) feature > set it enables. But they are not even necessarily related, just closer to the vanilla default config which is used eg. by Debian and most other Linux distros so projects like LVM2 started to rely on them. My goal here is to bring modern generic kernel features into OpenWrt, they are quite unrelated apart from being left out for space reasons and because for a minimal router/AP they are unneeded. > > > And sure, I can carry out some size measurements and compare memory > > allocation after boot. I'm sure the run-time CPU impact is hardly > > measurable at all. > > Please do so especially on low end devices. Maybe something like > routing throughput
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 14:21, Daniel Golle wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 01:17:34PM +, Jonas Gorski wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 11:42, Petr Štetiar wrote: > > > > > > Daniel Golle [2019-01-07 10:03:09]: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > One. The MT7621 EVB. The TP-LINK RE350 v1 can probably be converted to > > > > a more sane flash partition layout to gain another megabyte or so. > > > > > > I've looked only at mt7621, so this was just example from one subtarget of > > > ramips target. So I tend to believe, that there's quite more such cases > > > hidden > > > in the tree. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > > > > > > > Why specific devices? Wouldn't all devices with the resources (which > > > > boils down to !SMALL_FLASH) be potentially more useful with those > > > > kernel features enabled? > > > > > > You currently can't use !SMALL_FLASH, because this is target/subtarget > > > specific feature, not per device feature. I think, that in order to use > > > this > > > feature, you would need to convert/fix all devices like that TP-Link RE350 > > > from all (sub)targets into tiny subtarget and then you could freely use > > > !SMALL_FLASH. > > > > I agree with not abusing small_flash for that. It has a clear defined > > meaning, and shouldn't have unrelated side effects. > > So what else would the SMALL_FLASH symbol be used for then? > A quick grep reveals that currently already quite a few kernel config > defaults are set according to SMALL_FLASH, see > > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_SWAP > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Support for paging of anonymous memory > (swap)" > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > -- > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_KALLSYMS > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Compile the kernel with symbol table > information" > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > -- > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_DEBUG_INFO > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Compile the kernel with debug > information" > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > -- > origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_ELF_CORE > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Enable process core dump support" > origin/master:Config-kernel.in- select KERNEL_COREDUMP > origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH > ... Most of these option only influence the size of the kernel, and have no further runtime side effects. Also small_flash has impact on the compression options used. > > > > > I think a new opt-in symbol for those targets with hardware > > virtualization support and/or beefy enough cpus would make more sense. > > Those virtualization options (probably) don't come for free, they will > > have also a memory and performance impact even when not actively used. > > How much that is (and if this assumption is true) would be nice to > > have in the PR/patch for it. > > This is not about virtualization and none of the features selected > requires any special hardware support apart from the few extra > kilobytes of flash and memory. You are still right, it doesn't come > all for free at runtime in terms of CPU cycles, but the impact is > hardly measurable. > > But sure, I understand that this can be opt-in, so lets call it > 'full_kernel' or something like that and have target maintainers > decide themselves. In the picture I get after browsing through > all targets, it would still end up such that > full_kernel == !small_flash is true for all cases. "Full kernel" really has no real meaning and would describe everything. The name should clearly describe the (non-default) feature set it enables. > And sure, I can carry out some size measurements and compare memory > allocation after boot. I'm sure the run-time CPU impact is hardly > measurable at all. Please do so especially on low end devices. Maybe something like routing throughput with/without. Regards Jonas ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 01:17:34PM +, Jonas Gorski wrote: > On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 11:42, Petr Štetiar wrote: > > > > Daniel Golle [2019-01-07 10:03:09]: > > > > Hi, > > > > > One. The MT7621 EVB. The TP-LINK RE350 v1 can probably be converted to > > > a more sane flash partition layout to gain another megabyte or so. > > > > I've looked only at mt7621, so this was just example from one subtarget of > > ramips target. So I tend to believe, that there's quite more such cases > > hidden > > in the tree. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > > > > > Why specific devices? Wouldn't all devices with the resources (which > > > boils down to !SMALL_FLASH) be potentially more useful with those > > > kernel features enabled? > > > > You currently can't use !SMALL_FLASH, because this is target/subtarget > > specific feature, not per device feature. I think, that in order to use this > > feature, you would need to convert/fix all devices like that TP-Link RE350 > > from all (sub)targets into tiny subtarget and then you could freely use > > !SMALL_FLASH. > > I agree with not abusing small_flash for that. It has a clear defined > meaning, and shouldn't have unrelated side effects. So what else would the SMALL_FLASH symbol be used for then? A quick grep reveals that currently already quite a few kernel config defaults are set according to SMALL_FLASH, see origin/master:Config-kernel.in- origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_SWAP origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Support for paging of anonymous memory (swap)" origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH -- origin/master:Config-kernel.in- origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_KALLSYMS origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Compile the kernel with symbol table information" origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH -- origin/master:Config-kernel.in- origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_DEBUG_INFO origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Compile the kernel with debug information" origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH -- origin/master:Config-kernel.in-config KERNEL_ELF_CORE origin/master:Config-kernel.in- bool "Enable process core dump support" origin/master:Config-kernel.in- select KERNEL_COREDUMP origin/master:Config-kernel.in: default y if !SMALL_FLASH ... > > I think a new opt-in symbol for those targets with hardware > virtualization support and/or beefy enough cpus would make more sense. > Those virtualization options (probably) don't come for free, they will > have also a memory and performance impact even when not actively used. > How much that is (and if this assumption is true) would be nice to > have in the PR/patch for it. This is not about virtualization and none of the features selected requires any special hardware support apart from the few extra kilobytes of flash and memory. You are still right, it doesn't come all for free at runtime in terms of CPU cycles, but the impact is hardly measurable. But sure, I understand that this can be opt-in, so lets call it 'full_kernel' or something like that and have target maintainers decide themselves. In the picture I get after browsing through all targets, it would still end up such that full_kernel == !small_flash is true for all cases. And sure, I can carry out some size measurements and compare memory allocation after boot. I'm sure the run-time CPU impact is hardly measurable at all. > > > Regards > Jonas ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 11:42, Petr Štetiar wrote: > > Daniel Golle [2019-01-07 10:03:09]: > > Hi, > > > One. The MT7621 EVB. The TP-LINK RE350 v1 can probably be converted to > > a more sane flash partition layout to gain another megabyte or so. > > I've looked only at mt7621, so this was just example from one subtarget of > ramips target. So I tend to believe, that there's quite more such cases hidden > in the tree. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > > > Why specific devices? Wouldn't all devices with the resources (which > > boils down to !SMALL_FLASH) be potentially more useful with those > > kernel features enabled? > > You currently can't use !SMALL_FLASH, because this is target/subtarget > specific feature, not per device feature. I think, that in order to use this > feature, you would need to convert/fix all devices like that TP-Link RE350 > from all (sub)targets into tiny subtarget and then you could freely use > !SMALL_FLASH. I agree with not abusing small_flash for that. It has a clear defined meaning, and shouldn't have unrelated side effects. I think a new opt-in symbol for those targets with hardware virtualization support and/or beefy enough cpus would make more sense. Those virtualization options (probably) don't come for free, they will have also a memory and performance impact even when not actively used. How much that is (and if this assumption is true) would be nice to have in the PR/patch for it. Regards Jonas ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
Daniel Golle [2019-01-07 10:03:09]:
Hi,
> One. The MT7621 EVB. The TP-LINK RE350 v1 can probably be converted to
> a more sane flash partition layout to gain another megabyte or so.
I've looked only at mt7621, so this was just example from one subtarget of
ramips target. So I tend to believe, that there's quite more such cases hidden
in the tree. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> Why specific devices? Wouldn't all devices with the resources (which
> boils down to !SMALL_FLASH) be potentially more useful with those
> kernel features enabled?
You currently can't use !SMALL_FLASH, because this is target/subtarget
specific feature, not per device feature. I think, that in order to use this
feature, you would need to convert/fix all devices like that TP-Link RE350
from all (sub)targets into tiny subtarget and then you could freely use
!SMALL_FLASH.
> I know first hand that this is a reason for businesses I have been working
> for to switch over to OpenEmbedded instead of OpenWrt (and then hire people
> like me to port all the OpenWrt stuff they need into their OE build...).
This is interesting, so instead of adding few config options and building own
images which is quite trivial task, someone is rather moving to completely
different {build,eco}system? Well, you can do that, so why not. And yes, I'm
aware about meta-openwrt OE layer.
-- ynezz
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Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
On 2019-01-07 4:03 a.m., Daniel Golle wrote: > On Tue, Jan 01, 2019 at 08:46:25PM +0100, Petr Štetiar wrote: >> Daniel Golle [2019-01-01 17:56:25]: >> >> Hi, >> >>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:26:58AM +0100, Petr Štetiar wrote: Daniel Golle [2018-12-29 06:51:32]: > config KERNEL_AIO > config KERNEL_FHANDLE > config KERNEL_FANOTIFY > + default y if !SMALL_FLASH What about `FEATURES += nas` to make it clear and don't abuse SMALL_FLASH. >>> This is not necessarily only used on NAS devices. systemd requires >>> FHANDLE and FANOTIFY (eg. when running inside LXC container), lvm2 >>> needs AIO. Both could well run on a modern router or SBC having USB or >>> an SDCARD slot. >> to me it's still just NAS and container use cases. I'm afraid, that adding >> more bloat to kernels for devices with USB and MMC/SD card slots would be >> rejected also. > Well, most modern routers come with USB and/or MMC/SD and Samba > installed in their stock-rom. Apart from that, a lot of useful things > can be done with network namespaces -- we are just not implementing > them because the kernel doesn't have that feature enabled. > (think: have some service connect over VPN, others directly over WAN) > I think really small devices are rare now...and that's what SMALL_FLASH is for (perhaps quantify SMALL would be better though). > config KERNEL_CGROUPS > config KERNEL_CPUSETS > config KERNEL_CGROUP_CPUACCT > config KERNEL_RESOURCE_COUNTERS > config KERNEL_MEMCG > config KERNEL_MEMCG_KMEM > menuconfig KERNEL_CGROUP_SCHED > config KERNEL_FAIR_GROUP_SCHED > config KERNEL_RT_GROUP_SCHED > config KERNEL_NAMESPACES > config KERNEL_LXC_MISC > config KERNEL_SECCOMP_FILTER > config KERNEL_SECCOMP > - default n > + default y if !SMALL_FLASH What about `FEATURES += containers` ? >>> From what I understood FEATURES is supposed to reflect hardware >>> capabilities >> Well, almost. I've found `squashfs` and `ext4` in there also. > True, and I don't think those two symbols make sense when talking > about FEATURES -- all devices do support squashfs without exception, > ext4 can only work on block-type storage, ie. devices booting from > (e)MMC or a SATA drive. So imho we could drop the squashfs symbol > and replace ext4 with a 'block_root' feature which imho would be > more meaningful. +1 >>> -- all the above are generic software features useful on any device having >>> the capacity (ie. flash and RAM) to make use of them. >> But as other Daniel already suggested, !SMALL_FLASH isn't proper group >> selection either. Speaking about the capacity, did you measured how much >> those >> features add to the kernel images? >> Daniel Engberg [2018-12-30 10:21:46]: > however KERNEL_CGROUPS, config KERNEL_NAMESPACES, config KERNEL_LXC_MISC, > KERNEL_SECCOMP_FILTER are very limited use cases to my knowledge and more > or > less only used on x86*? There are other quite powerful platforms like mvebu, imx6, ipq etc. where you could use this as well. >>> I use LXC on oxnas/ox820 (ARM11mpcore) and ramips/mt7621 (MIPS1004Kc), >> Ok, looking at IMAGE_SIZE values for mt7621 yields following results: >> >> IMAGE_SIZE := 6016k TP-LINK RE350 v1 >> IMAGE_SIZE := 7798784 I-O DATA WN-GX300GR >> IMAGE_SIZE := $(ralink_default_fw_size_4M) MT7621 EVB >> IMAGE_SIZE := $(ralink_default_fw_size_8M) AP-MT7621A-V60 EVB >> >> So it wouldn't be wise to add more bloat into kernels for those devices. > I don't think adding ~ 100kb to devices with 8MB of flash or more is a > problem. Regarding that evaluation board with only 4MB of NOR flash: > this is not a real-world device but rather an evalution platform, so > I wouldn't care much about users having to build their own stripped- > down version for that, because it's probably only a few hundred of > those EVBs ever made and most of them are by now collecting dust on > a shelf and will never be used for anything again. +1 >>> running Debian inside LXC containers (and it's annoying that I can't >>> use regular OpenWrt releases or buildbot-generated snapshots on the). >> I would like to do the same, but on the other hand I also understand, why >> your >> patch as it is wouldn't be accepted. Our containers/NAS use cases are still >> very rare, thus it makes no sense to enable those features by default to >> every >> other !SMALL_FLASH target. As you can see on mt7621, it's not marked as >> SMALL_FLASH, yet there are devices which might be considered SMALL_FLASH. > One. The MT7621 EVB. The TP-LINK RE350 v1 can probably be converted to > a more sane flash partition layout to gain another megabyte or so. > >> Now I realize, that it couldn't be handled with FEATURES anyway, as this is >> always too broad group selection and ideally you want to enable those >> features >> for specific devices only, meaning different
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
On Tue, Jan 01, 2019 at 08:46:25PM +0100, Petr Štetiar wrote: > Daniel Golle [2019-01-01 17:56:25]: > > Hi, > > > On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:26:58AM +0100, Petr Štetiar wrote: > > > Daniel Golle [2018-12-29 06:51:32]: > > > > > > > config KERNEL_AIO > > > > config KERNEL_FHANDLE > > > > config KERNEL_FANOTIFY > > > > + default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > > > > > What about `FEATURES += nas` to make it clear and don't abuse SMALL_FLASH. > > > > This is not necessarily only used on NAS devices. systemd requires > > FHANDLE and FANOTIFY (eg. when running inside LXC container), lvm2 > > needs AIO. Both could well run on a modern router or SBC having USB or > > an SDCARD slot. > > to me it's still just NAS and container use cases. I'm afraid, that adding > more bloat to kernels for devices with USB and MMC/SD card slots would be > rejected also. Well, most modern routers come with USB and/or MMC/SD and Samba installed in their stock-rom. Apart from that, a lot of useful things can be done with network namespaces -- we are just not implementing them because the kernel doesn't have that feature enabled. (think: have some service connect over VPN, others directly over WAN) > > > > > config KERNEL_CGROUPS > > > > config KERNEL_CPUSETS > > > > config KERNEL_CGROUP_CPUACCT > > > > config KERNEL_RESOURCE_COUNTERS > > > > config KERNEL_MEMCG > > > > config KERNEL_MEMCG_KMEM > > > > menuconfig KERNEL_CGROUP_SCHED > > > > config KERNEL_FAIR_GROUP_SCHED > > > > config KERNEL_RT_GROUP_SCHED > > > > config KERNEL_NAMESPACES > > > > config KERNEL_LXC_MISC > > > > config KERNEL_SECCOMP_FILTER > > > > config KERNEL_SECCOMP > > > > - default n > > > > + default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > > > > > What about `FEATURES += containers` ? > > > > From what I understood FEATURES is supposed to reflect hardware > > capabilities > > Well, almost. I've found `squashfs` and `ext4` in there also. True, and I don't think those two symbols make sense when talking about FEATURES -- all devices do support squashfs without exception, ext4 can only work on block-type storage, ie. devices booting from (e)MMC or a SATA drive. So imho we could drop the squashfs symbol and replace ext4 with a 'block_root' feature which imho would be more meaningful. > > > -- all the above are generic software features useful on any device having > > the capacity (ie. flash and RAM) to make use of them. > > But as other Daniel already suggested, !SMALL_FLASH isn't proper group > selection either. Speaking about the capacity, did you measured how much those > features add to the kernel images? > > > > Daniel Engberg [2018-12-30 10:21:46]: > > > > > > > however KERNEL_CGROUPS, config KERNEL_NAMESPACES, config > > > > KERNEL_LXC_MISC, > > > > KERNEL_SECCOMP_FILTER are very limited use cases to my knowledge and > > > > more or > > > > less only used on x86*? > > > > > > There are other quite powerful platforms like mvebu, imx6, ipq etc. where > > > you > > > could use this as well. > > > > I use LXC on oxnas/ox820 (ARM11mpcore) and ramips/mt7621 (MIPS1004Kc), > > Ok, looking at IMAGE_SIZE values for mt7621 yields following results: > > IMAGE_SIZE := 6016k TP-LINK RE350 v1 > IMAGE_SIZE := 7798784 I-O DATA WN-GX300GR > IMAGE_SIZE := $(ralink_default_fw_size_4M) MT7621 EVB > IMAGE_SIZE := $(ralink_default_fw_size_8M) AP-MT7621A-V60 EVB > > So it wouldn't be wise to add more bloat into kernels for those devices. I don't think adding ~ 100kb to devices with 8MB of flash or more is a problem. Regarding that evaluation board with only 4MB of NOR flash: this is not a real-world device but rather an evalution platform, so I wouldn't care much about users having to build their own stripped- down version for that, because it's probably only a few hundred of those EVBs ever made and most of them are by now collecting dust on a shelf and will never be used for anything again. > > > running Debian inside LXC containers (and it's annoying that I can't > > use regular OpenWrt releases or buildbot-generated snapshots on the). > > I would like to do the same, but on the other hand I also understand, why your > patch as it is wouldn't be accepted. Our containers/NAS use cases are still > very rare, thus it makes no sense to enable those features by default to every > other !SMALL_FLASH target. As you can see on mt7621, it's not marked as > SMALL_FLASH, yet there are devices which might be considered SMALL_FLASH. One. The MT7621 EVB. The TP-LINK RE350 v1 can probably be converted to a more sane flash partition layout to gain another megabyte or so. > > Now I realize, that it couldn't be handled with FEATURES anyway, as this is > always too broad group selection and ideally you want to enable those features > for specific devices only, meaning different kernels, images etc. Why specific devices? Wouldn't all devices with the resources (which boils down to
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
On 2018-12-29 12:51 a.m., Daniel Golle wrote: > enable kernel features needed for procd-ujail, procd-seccomp, lxc and > lvm2 on devices with big enough flash. Those packages are currently > useless in binary builds due to missing kernel features. > Enable the features on devices which can bare with the extra space > consumption. > On a related note: https://github.com/openwrt/openwrt/pull/1707 fixes a missing symbol with LXC enabled. ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
Daniel Golle [2019-01-01 17:56:25]: Hi, > On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:26:58AM +0100, Petr Štetiar wrote: > > Daniel Golle [2018-12-29 06:51:32]: > > > > > config KERNEL_AIO > > > config KERNEL_FHANDLE > > > config KERNEL_FANOTIFY > > > + default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > > > What about `FEATURES += nas` to make it clear and don't abuse SMALL_FLASH. > > This is not necessarily only used on NAS devices. systemd requires > FHANDLE and FANOTIFY (eg. when running inside LXC container), lvm2 > needs AIO. Both could well run on a modern router or SBC having USB or > an SDCARD slot. to me it's still just NAS and container use cases. I'm afraid, that adding more bloat to kernels for devices with USB and MMC/SD card slots would be rejected also. > > > config KERNEL_CGROUPS > > > config KERNEL_CPUSETS > > > config KERNEL_CGROUP_CPUACCT > > > config KERNEL_RESOURCE_COUNTERS > > > config KERNEL_MEMCG > > > config KERNEL_MEMCG_KMEM > > > menuconfig KERNEL_CGROUP_SCHED > > > config KERNEL_FAIR_GROUP_SCHED > > > config KERNEL_RT_GROUP_SCHED > > > config KERNEL_NAMESPACES > > > config KERNEL_LXC_MISC > > > config KERNEL_SECCOMP_FILTER > > > config KERNEL_SECCOMP > > > - default n > > > + default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > > > What about `FEATURES += containers` ? > > From what I understood FEATURES is supposed to reflect hardware > capabilities Well, almost. I've found `squashfs` and `ext4` in there also. > -- all the above are generic software features useful on any device having > the capacity (ie. flash and RAM) to make use of them. But as other Daniel already suggested, !SMALL_FLASH isn't proper group selection either. Speaking about the capacity, did you measured how much those features add to the kernel images? > > Daniel Engberg [2018-12-30 10:21:46]: > > > > > however KERNEL_CGROUPS, config KERNEL_NAMESPACES, config KERNEL_LXC_MISC, > > > KERNEL_SECCOMP_FILTER are very limited use cases to my knowledge and more > > > or > > > less only used on x86*? > > > > There are other quite powerful platforms like mvebu, imx6, ipq etc. where > > you > > could use this as well. > > I use LXC on oxnas/ox820 (ARM11mpcore) and ramips/mt7621 (MIPS1004Kc), Ok, looking at IMAGE_SIZE values for mt7621 yields following results: IMAGE_SIZE := 6016k TP-LINK RE350 v1 IMAGE_SIZE := 7798784 I-O DATA WN-GX300GR IMAGE_SIZE := $(ralink_default_fw_size_4M) MT7621 EVB IMAGE_SIZE := $(ralink_default_fw_size_8M) AP-MT7621A-V60 EVB So it wouldn't be wise to add more bloat into kernels for those devices. > running Debian inside LXC containers (and it's annoying that I can't > use regular OpenWrt releases or buildbot-generated snapshots on the). I would like to do the same, but on the other hand I also understand, why your patch as it is wouldn't be accepted. Our containers/NAS use cases are still very rare, thus it makes no sense to enable those features by default to every other !SMALL_FLASH target. As you can see on mt7621, it's not marked as SMALL_FLASH, yet there are devices which might be considered SMALL_FLASH. Now I realize, that it couldn't be handled with FEATURES anyway, as this is always too broad group selection and ideally you want to enable those features for specific devices only, meaning different kernels, images etc. -- ynezz ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
Hi! On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:26:58AM +0100, Petr Štetiar wrote: > Daniel Golle [2018-12-29 06:51:32]: > > > config KERNEL_AIO > > config KERNEL_FHANDLE > > config KERNEL_FANOTIFY > > + default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > What about `FEATURES += nas` to make it clear and don't abuse SMALL_FLASH. This is not necessarily only used on NAS devices. systemd requires FHANDLE and FANOTIFY (eg. when running inside LXC container), lvm2 needs AIO. Both could well run on a modern router or SBC having USB or an SDCARD slot. > > > config KERNEL_CGROUPS > > config KERNEL_CPUSETS > > config KERNEL_CGROUP_CPUACCT > > config KERNEL_RESOURCE_COUNTERS > > config KERNEL_MEMCG > > config KERNEL_MEMCG_KMEM > > menuconfig KERNEL_CGROUP_SCHED > > config KERNEL_FAIR_GROUP_SCHED > > config KERNEL_RT_GROUP_SCHED > > config KERNEL_NAMESPACES > > config KERNEL_LXC_MISC > > config KERNEL_SECCOMP_FILTER > > config KERNEL_SECCOMP > > - default n > > + default y if !SMALL_FLASH > > What about `FEATURES += containers` ? From what I understood FEATURES is supposed to reflect hardware capabilities -- all the above are generic software features useful on any device having the capacity (ie. flash and RAM) to make use of them. > > Daniel Engberg [2018-12-30 10:21:46]: > > > however KERNEL_CGROUPS, config KERNEL_NAMESPACES, config KERNEL_LXC_MISC, > > KERNEL_SECCOMP_FILTER are very limited use cases to my knowledge and more or > > less only used on x86*? > > There are other quite powerful platforms like mvebu, imx6, ipq etc. where you > could use this as well. I use LXC on oxnas/ox820 (ARM11mpcore) and ramips/mt7621 (MIPS1004Kc), running Debian inside LXC containers (and it's annoying that I can't use regular OpenWrt releases or buildbot-generated snapshots on the). Cheers Daniel ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
Daniel Golle [2018-12-29 06:51:32]: > config KERNEL_AIO > config KERNEL_FHANDLE > config KERNEL_FANOTIFY > + default y if !SMALL_FLASH What about `FEATURES += nas` to make it clear and don't abuse SMALL_FLASH. > config KERNEL_CGROUPS > config KERNEL_CPUSETS > config KERNEL_CGROUP_CPUACCT > config KERNEL_RESOURCE_COUNTERS > config KERNEL_MEMCG > config KERNEL_MEMCG_KMEM > menuconfig KERNEL_CGROUP_SCHED > config KERNEL_FAIR_GROUP_SCHED > config KERNEL_RT_GROUP_SCHED > config KERNEL_NAMESPACES > config KERNEL_LXC_MISC > config KERNEL_SECCOMP_FILTER > config KERNEL_SECCOMP > - default n > + default y if !SMALL_FLASH What about `FEATURES += containers` ? Daniel Engberg [2018-12-30 10:21:46]: > however KERNEL_CGROUPS, config KERNEL_NAMESPACES, config KERNEL_LXC_MISC, > KERNEL_SECCOMP_FILTER are very limited use cases to my knowledge and more or > less only used on x86*? There are other quite powerful platforms like mvebu, imx6, ipq etc. where you could use this as well. -- ynezz ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] [PATCH] config: enable some useful features on !SMALL_FLASH devices
Hi, KERNEL_AIO, KERNEL_FHANDLE and KERNEL_FANOTIFY makes sense _if_ you're using some kind of storage device however KERNEL_CGROUPS, config KERNEL_NAMESPACES, config KERNEL_LXC_MISC, KERNEL_SECCOMP_FILTER are very limited use cases to my knowledge and more or less only used on x86*? Keep in mind that 8Mbyte flash devices falls under the non tiny category and you don't have much space to begin with and far from everyone uses external storage devices on such devices which requires the kernel features mentioned. Best regards, Daniel ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
