:-) Feeling snowed? || -----Original Message----- || From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] || Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 2:41 PM || To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L || Subject: Re:RE: OT -- MS makes a statement about open-source software || || || OK, who's got the shovel? It's getting deep in here again!! :-) || || ____________________Reply Separator____________________ || Author: "Eric D. Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> || Date: 5/7/2001 9:56 AM || || dude, || || semi-intuitive/deductive? || || re: ".net" || || what I've seen is a lot of the usual eternally poorly, or || partly, thought out MS-hate, mostly secondary/derivative || material on email lists, along with some good criticism || (good as in: based on either sophisticated technical, or || political grounds). || || on the other hand, at this campus, the desktop support R&D || guy, who is more or less agnostic (occasionally slight || pro-MS leanings) says that .net is expectde to take care of || some major vexing problems with client platform rollouts and || maintenance. || || And you saw the forward from the folks at our local user || group who appear to have done some careful preliminary || examination of the two strategies. || || As an "independent", I see massive problems on the MS side. || || BUT, as in virtually all the "conflict" based clashes between || people that have become emotionaly invested in "one side" or || another of an argument about values, beliefs and "aesthetics", || excesses and rhetorical distortions will be in evidence on || both "sides". || || It is easy for people in the "purist" camp of the tech || community to trash MS' greed and monopolistic excesses (and || the underlying value/belief system). It is much harder for || some "purists" to maintain a sophisticated, balanced "good || faith" approach to dialoging with people with other || perspectives, and to engage in healthy self criticism. || || The tendency for people to become obsessive about || "advocating" their own (or their own groups') perspective || and therefore loose the ability to tolerate, and appreciate || other perspectives (especially to the extent of becoming || reactionary) is called "instrumentalization" by social || theorists. || || I've paid more attention to the cultural mapping of these || issues in relation to 1) science/religion dialogue (e.g., || the Kansas School Board controversy about teaching of || evolutionary theory), the broad outlines of "liberal vs. || conservative" conflict over social engineering policies || (esp. public education & welfare state), and issues in || international relations (e.g., Giddens', of the London || School of Economics, "constructivist" perspective). || || ---excerpt--- || || http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0745622674 || || Book Description || || The idea of finding a "third way" in politics has been widely || discussed - not only in the UK, but in the US, Continental Europe || and Latin America. But what is the third way? Supporters of the || notion haven't been able to agree, and critics deny the || possibility altogether. Anthony Giddens shows that developing a || third way is not only a possibility but a necessity in modern || politics. The third way represents the renewal of social democracy || in a world where the views of the old left have become obsolete, || while those of the new right are inadequate and contradictory. A || new social democratic agenda is emerging that is integrated, || robust and wide-ranging. It is an agenda that can rekindle || political idealism. || || The author's previous works, especially "Beyond Left and Right" || (Polity Press 1994), have influenced debates about the social || democracy in many countries across the world. Frequently referred || to in the UK as Tony Blair's guru, Giddens has made a strong || impact on the evolution of New Labour. The author or editor of || over thirty books, he is currently the Director of the London || School of Economics and Political Science. || ... || || ---end--- || || In terms of transcending (not invalidating) the limitations || of older value/belief systems, one useful tool is called || "standpoint epistemology", which assumes that "truth" (or || "beauty", or "good") can legitimately be "seen" from a || variety of differing perspectives, and that definitions of || "difference" don't need to be constrained within the context || of ideas about "exclusion". || || Anyway, while the connection between ideology, partisan || politics, etc. and the computer industry is not at all || obvious or simple, the manner in which people tend to form || oppositional "camps" around ideological positions and || value/belief systems in the "purist vs. popularizer" debate || seems to have many of the same characteristics as in other || instances of conflict oriented social/political interaction. || || The characteristic dysfunctional dynamic would lead one to || expect to frequently see both "sides" in such conflicts || shooting themselves in the foot with wild abandon. || || regards, || ep || || || On 4 May 2001, at 20:00, Mohan, Ross wrote: || || Date sent: Fri, 04 May 2001 20:00:21 -0800 || To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L || <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> || Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] || Organization: Fat City Network Services, San || Diego, California || || ... || || > p.s. btw, your cry to attention at the end....are there articles || > you have in mind supporting your statement that the || anti-MS jihad'ers || > underestimate .Net, or is this an intuitive call? (I am perfectly || > willing to entertain either, or both, as a answer...) || > || > -----Original Message----- || > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L || > Sent: 5/4/2001 6:05 PM || > || > Basically this is just the same old "purists" vs. "popularizers" || > stuff. || > || > But it is classic. Let the jihad rage. || > || > Reverend Torvalds is of course mainly preaching to the choir || > (purists). He ought to at least acknowledge that in the history of || > science, commerce -as applied scientific development- has always || > played an important role as an economic engine, though || frequently in || > considerable tension to the "purist" interests/preferences of || > scientific elites. Of course it is tempting to set up || scientists as || > heroic/romantic figures, but without the social engine of commerce || > chugging along, would the resources have even been there || to support || > all the great innovations that were developed by the || intellectual and || > scientific elites? Of course not. Also, commerce and || science (as we || > know them in the "modern" age since 1600), arose from the same || > underlying cultural/"evolutionary" wellsprings, so the idea of || > separating commerce from science has limited relevance. || > || > I wasn't able to stay awake enough to force myself to || stomach reading || > all of corporate-speak drivel in the MS guy's statement, || but this did || > jump out at me: || > || > ---excerpt--- || > [IP = intellectual property] || > || > ...Finally, the fact that we believe strongly in the value of IP || > protection doesn't mean that we discount the importance of || > contributing to and supporting the public domain of knowledge as || > well. We believe that interaction between the public domain and || > the IP-based sector needs to be based on mutual || responsibility and || > respect. || > || > There is an important and longstanding tradition for the public || > domain of knowledge, or "intellectual commons." This is || reflected || > in many ways, including federal support for basic research, the || > limitations on IP rights reflected in the law and, more || recently, || > the broad practice of contributing technology to public || standards || > groups for the continued development of the Internet. We support || > this and want to continue to be a constructive and responsible || > participant in this community, including making contributions to || > public standards. There is an equally important tradition of || > commercial companies having the opportunity to benefit from and || > apply this public knowledge, including by developing commercial || > products that are protected by IP rights. There are || many examples || > of this, including the many products that grew from research in || > the space program and the advances in speech recognition || > technology that followed work done at pre-eminent institutions || > such as Carnegie Mellon. || > || > ... || > || > ---end--- || > || > Really, the brainwashed idiots/ propagandists at MS are their own || > worst enemy (enema?). If they would just tell the plain || truth instead || > of constantly twisting it and distorting it to fit their || internally || > self-referential greedy mentality, they could make a much || better fair || > case (IMO). || > || > From what I've heard, at this point ".Net" is being dangerously || > underestimated by the anti-MS jihad. || > || > regards, || > ep || > || > || > || > On 4 May 2001, at 11:41, Mohan, Ross scribbled with alacrity and || > cogency: || > || > || > > Boy, that is an excellent response, and one || > > of the best defenses of Open Source i've heard. || > > || > > || -----Original Message----- || > > || From: Jamadagni, Rajendra [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] || > > || Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:22 AM || > > || To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L || > > || Subject: RE: OT -- MS makes a statement about || open-source software || > > || movemen || > > || || > > || || > > || Here is Linus's response .... || > > || || > || > || http://web.siliconvalley.com/content/sv/2001/05/03/opinion/dg || illmor/webl || > og/torvalds.htm || > || > || > -- || > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com || > -- || > Author: Eric D. Pierce || > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] || > || > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 || > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / || Mailing Lists || > || -------------------------------------------------------------------- || > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message || > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in || > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L || > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may || > also send the HELP command for other information (like || subscribing). || > -- || > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com || > -- || > Author: Mohan, Ross || > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] || > || > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 || > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / || Mailing Lists || > || -------------------------------------------------------------------- || > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message || > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in || > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L || > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may || > also send the HELP command for other information (like || subscribing). || || || -- || Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com || -- || Author: Eric D. Pierce || INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] || || Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 || San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / || Mailing Lists || -------------------------------------------------------------------- || To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message || to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in || the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L || (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may || also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). || -- || Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com || -- || Author: || INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] || || Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 || San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / || Mailing Lists || -------------------------------------------------------------------- || To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message || to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in || the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L || (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may || also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). || -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
