RE: RE: RE: Siebel.
You'd almost have to be God to fix it.it consists of 1000s of tables. It took me 2 weeks to reverse into Designer. My customer is not welling to pay for the time to fix the design. "Mohan, Ross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>@fatcity.com on 11/29/2001 04:17:58 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Dick, question for yaif you "owned" Siebel, lock, stock and barrel, what would you do? 1) Fix and switch ALL RI to the database ( oracle and ms and ibm and others) 2) Just fix it where it is broken, but leave it in the app itself 3) leave it out but publish a tech spec document telling users/DBAs how and where to implement RI constraints. 4) something else. I am curious how you would solve Tom Siebel's problem of shipping an app across, say, four or five major different dbms platforms while simultaneously keeping bugs, development costs , requiring consulting and document costs down, and upgrade schedules and bug fixes in place. In other words...if you were "god" how would you fix this problem you see? curious, Ross -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 4:30 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, You ought to be a sales droid! That was a perfectly worded reply and in MANY instances I'll agree with you. The ease or of lack thereof in administering an application is very often decided on by damagement by whether or not they need a dedicated/specialized resource to handle it. Therefore sales droids will constantly downplay that requirement, until the check is in hand. Actually sales droids downplay a lot of requirements for their software until the deal is in the bank. Then they drop the bomb. And then people like us are left to clean up. Dick Goulet -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: RE: Siebel.
Dick, question for yaif you "owned" Siebel, lock, stock and barrel, what would you do? 1) Fix and switch ALL RI to the database ( oracle and ms and ibm and others) 2) Just fix it where it is broken, but leave it in the app itself 3) leave it out but publish a tech spec document telling users/DBAs how and where to implement RI constraints. 4) something else. I am curious how you would solve Tom Siebel's problem of shipping an app across, say, four or five major different dbms platforms while simultaneously keeping bugs, development costs , requiring consulting and document costs down, and upgrade schedules and bug fixes in place. In other words...if you were "god" how would you fix this problem you see? curious, Ross -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 4:30 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, You ought to be a sales droid! That was a perfectly worded reply and in MANY instances I'll agree with you. The ease or of lack thereof in administering an application is very often decided on by damagement by whether or not they need a dedicated/specialized resource to handle it. Therefore sales droids will constantly downplay that requirement, until the check is in hand. Actually sales droids downplay a lot of requirements for their software until the deal is in the bank. Then they drop the bomb. And then people like us are left to clean up. Dick Goulet -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: Siebel.
Dennis, Maybe I'm naive, or I'm giving too much credit to those making the purchase, but I feel that for applications the size and cost of most ERPs you could market them using features such as stability and data integrity along with the bells and whistles. A cleaner schema would also make it easier for companies to integrate the product into their other apps, saving $$. Maybe radical steps don't go with sales and marketing. Henry -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 3:55 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Henry - The issue isn't the major RDBMS vendors, although there can be interesting variations among them when it comes to how RI is implemented. Most successful ERP packages have been around for a number of years, so they have had to be available on many platforms. On some of those platforms the popular database alternative might not have RI. Another aspect from the vendor's point of view is being able to create a package that will work at many, many sites and not require many support calls, especially not require an experienced DBA. While in fact, as you and I know, a serious package on Oracle should be supported by an experienced DBA, when you are in a competitive sales situation, success is spelled by "don't give the customer a reason not to buy our product." If the customer doesn't have a DBA and they get the idea your package requires a good DBA and your competitor is giving out hints that their package doesn't, then the customer might just do something stupid and buy from your competitor. I'll give you an example of this. I don't know anything about Oracle Applications (honest!). However, somebody told me that when it is installed, no indexes are created. If true, that means that a DBA will need to figure out the most common access paths for my site and create indexes. As an ignorant purchaser, I could easily conclude that Oracle Applications were difficult to administer. I fully realize that from the point of view of the experienced DBA there are a lot of reasons why life would be better if the idiot vendor would implement RI, or many other things. I am just saying that the picture looks different from the vendor's point of view, and the minuses probably outweigh the plusses, and certainly for an existing product it must be weighed against other development priorities. And if you decide to add it, then you must figure a way to allow all existing customers to upgrade without causing them a lot of problems and generating a lot of complaints. Oh well, that is probably more than you wanted to know. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:01 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just curious, but which of the major RDBMSs don't have RI? Henry -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:55 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Another factor is that when RI was first introduced, people tended to overuse it and then performance was bad. I don't think this is such a problem today, but I think many ERP packages were either developed before RI was common to all SQL databases, or were discouraged by the initial problems. But I agree that the main factor has been that they try to be compatible with all databases and the easiest way is to maintain their own data dictionary and not implement RI in the database. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Henry Poras INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538
RE: RE: Siebel.
Damn. I've been wracking my brain all day trying to figure out how to say this. Thanks, Dennis. --Walt Weaver Bozeman, Montana -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 1:55 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Henry - The issue isn't the major RDBMS vendors, although there can be interesting variations among them when it comes to how RI is implemented. Most successful ERP packages have been around for a number of years, so they have had to be available on many platforms. On some of those platforms the popular database alternative might not have RI. Another aspect from the vendor's point of view is being able to create a package that will work at many, many sites and not require many support calls, especially not require an experienced DBA. While in fact, as you and I know, a serious package on Oracle should be supported by an experienced DBA, when you are in a competitive sales situation, success is spelled by "don't give the customer a reason not to buy our product." If the customer doesn't have a DBA and they get the idea your package requires a good DBA and your competitor is giving out hints that their package doesn't, then the customer might just do something stupid and buy from your competitor. I'll give you an example of this. I don't know anything about Oracle Applications (honest!). However, somebody told me that when it is installed, no indexes are created. If true, that means that a DBA will need to figure out the most common access paths for my site and create indexes. As an ignorant purchaser, I could easily conclude that Oracle Applications were difficult to administer. I fully realize that from the point of view of the experienced DBA there are a lot of reasons why life would be better if the idiot vendor would implement RI, or many other things. I am just saying that the picture looks different from the vendor's point of view, and the minuses probably outweigh the plusses, and certainly for an existing product it must be weighed against other development priorities. And if you decide to add it, then you must figure a way to allow all existing customers to upgrade without causing them a lot of problems and generating a lot of complaints. Oh well, that is probably more than you wanted to know. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:01 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just curious, but which of the major RDBMSs don't have RI? Henry -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:55 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Another factor is that when RI was first introduced, people tended to overuse it and then performance was bad. I don't think this is such a problem today, but I think many ERP packages were either developed before RI was common to all SQL databases, or were discouraged by the initial problems. But I agree that the main factor has been that they try to be compatible with all databases and the easiest way is to maintain their own data dictionary and not implement RI in the database. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Henry Poras INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a li
RE: RE: Siebel.
Henry - The issue isn't the major RDBMS vendors, although there can be interesting variations among them when it comes to how RI is implemented. Most successful ERP packages have been around for a number of years, so they have had to be available on many platforms. On some of those platforms the popular database alternative might not have RI. Another aspect from the vendor's point of view is being able to create a package that will work at many, many sites and not require many support calls, especially not require an experienced DBA. While in fact, as you and I know, a serious package on Oracle should be supported by an experienced DBA, when you are in a competitive sales situation, success is spelled by "don't give the customer a reason not to buy our product." If the customer doesn't have a DBA and they get the idea your package requires a good DBA and your competitor is giving out hints that their package doesn't, then the customer might just do something stupid and buy from your competitor. I'll give you an example of this. I don't know anything about Oracle Applications (honest!). However, somebody told me that when it is installed, no indexes are created. If true, that means that a DBA will need to figure out the most common access paths for my site and create indexes. As an ignorant purchaser, I could easily conclude that Oracle Applications were difficult to administer. I fully realize that from the point of view of the experienced DBA there are a lot of reasons why life would be better if the idiot vendor would implement RI, or many other things. I am just saying that the picture looks different from the vendor's point of view, and the minuses probably outweigh the plusses, and certainly for an existing product it must be weighed against other development priorities. And if you decide to add it, then you must figure a way to allow all existing customers to upgrade without causing them a lot of problems and generating a lot of complaints. Oh well, that is probably more than you wanted to know. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:01 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just curious, but which of the major RDBMSs don't have RI? Henry -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:55 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Another factor is that when RI was first introduced, people tended to overuse it and then performance was bad. I don't think this is such a problem today, but I think many ERP packages were either developed before RI was common to all SQL databases, or were discouraged by the initial problems. But I agree that the main factor has been that they try to be compatible with all databases and the easiest way is to maintain their own data dictionary and not implement RI in the database. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Henry Poras INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: Siebel.
Another good one is when they change the application from flat files to an RDBMS.. And then continue to forget all about relational database theory.. Love it!! -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 November 2001 14:50 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Henry, I am sorry to have to admit it, but my experience with third party software is that all of them don't want to imbed their referential integrity into the database. I like you also believe it is because they do not have any kind of data model, never mind a 'proper' one Although the reason I was recently given was that it was "proprietary information of a confidential nature". Smells like BS, looks like BS, care to taste it?? We've bothered PeopleSoft for theirs as we have to write some software to interface our Automated line to them. They did finally come up with one, but it is dead wrong. The model they came up with had tables missing, other tables were on the model, but there was no definition of them in the database, and the data integrity on the model did not match the data in the database. Mostly we found that foreign keys are not being completely enforced, and that primary keys are not exactly always unique. One place where I will give on this type of issue is when, for whatever reason, they populate tables in reverse order namely the children before the parents. This I mostly see in massive batch processing. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: Henry Poras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 11/28/2001 11:45 AM Does anybody else get the same feeling as me that it is not that vendors are ignoring proper data models, they don't even know what they are. Henry -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 2:14 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Unfortunately it's the case way too often. Even at the enlightened place where I work, our RI is done at the application level. Not much I can do about it. Our development is done on MySQL and then "ported" to Oracle. --Walt Weaver Bozeman, Montana, USA -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:55 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L BAH!! These bloody application providers leaving the integrity to their bloody applications instead of leaving it in it's rightful place in the database!!! Makes my life 10 times harder!!! Got no consideration at all have they? :P Thanks! Mark -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 November 2001 17:46 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L We use Siebel and no it does NOT have RI. "Mark Leith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>@fatcity.com on 11/28/2001 10:56:07 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Hi Gang, Does anybody use Siebel - I believe it's a CRM package? I'm trying to find out of the Siebel application enforces RI within the database or the application? Anybody know? Cheers Mark === Mark Leith | T: +44 (0)1905 330 281 Sales & Marketing | F: +44 (0)870 127 5283 Cool Tools UK Ltd | E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] === http://www.cool-tools.co.uk Maximising throughput & performance -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself
RE: RE: Siebel.
Just curious, but which of the major RDBMSs don't have RI? Henry -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:55 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Another factor is that when RI was first introduced, people tended to overuse it and then performance was bad. I don't think this is such a problem today, but I think many ERP packages were either developed before RI was common to all SQL databases, or were discouraged by the initial problems. But I agree that the main factor has been that they try to be compatible with all databases and the easiest way is to maintain their own data dictionary and not implement RI in the database. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Henry Poras INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: Siebel.
Another factor is that when RI was first introduced, people tended to overuse it and then performance was bad. I don't think this is such a problem today, but I think many ERP packages were either developed before RI was common to all SQL databases, or were discouraged by the initial problems. But I agree that the main factor has been that they try to be compatible with all databases and the easiest way is to maintain their own data dictionary and not implement RI in the database. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
