orion-list Re: To the ORION PANEL: THANKS

[Reinaldo Martinez]

To The ORION PANEL VIII

Reinaldo Martinez Wrote:

I want to thank all those who’ve been answering my
queries about Szekely. Most of them were real
enlightenment on my doubts. I appreciate their
patience in the face of my ignorance. I now think that
they are not only extreme Jews who reject everything
smelling Christian nor just fanatic Christians trying
to confirm Crhistianism everywhere. Especial thanks to
Dr. Zeev Roitman from the Shrine of the Book; he
invited me to Orion; to Barbara Leger; a fine scholar.
Also to dilligent Lisa Harnan, exhaustive Russell
Gmirken, sharp George Brooks, creative Jack Tornbull,
tweezer-handler David Hinley , zealous Greg Doudna,
and if I have forgotten someone, please accept my
apologies.  Greg proved to be a concerned panel member
with his doubts about my (and Rotman and Bermudez’s)
existence. On my side, I was perhaps also too
satirical in my answer to his overzealous doubts. My
sincere appreciation to all.

To Russell Gmyrken

I got answer from Msgr. Voicu curator of the Secret
Archives of the Vatican Library to the effect that (I
quote) “The document Mr. Szekely speaks about seems to
have never existed. At least in this premises”. Before
that, Msgr. Ammenti also answered that “there is not
such a manuscript in the Vatican Library”. I am
waiting for Szekely’s widow to answer my request for
info regarding her husband’s claims. We can all
imagine what the answer will be. 

About radiocarbon.

Also, regarding your comment to Greg Doudna on radio
carbon, (Correct me if I am wrong), I understand that
Mass Acceleration Spectrometry is a more precise, less
destructive test for dating both organic and inorganic
samples. Would it perhaps be better for the castor oil
contaminated scrolls?

To David Hindley

Your discovery of Gottlieb’s “Edgar Cayce and the Dead
Sea Scrolls” open an entirely new path of search for
my work. I appreciate it. After you touched this point
I noticed the striking similarity of those teachings
(Szekely’s “Essennes”) and the Khabalah which I have
studied. I had not considered a connection with
new-age-turn-of-the century mysticism. Thanks very
much. This helps a lot.

I have been to the Essene Church of Christ’s website.
However I considered the mentioned Carmel Manuscript
as another mischief of some sect members. Hardly bound
to take it seriously. I find it hard to believe John
Allegro actually hid a mss and never tried to show it.
This just is not the Allegro I have known about. I
shall follow the lead on  Jenkin’s “The Esoteric
Christ”. I deeply appreciate all this.

To Lisa Kharnan  : ) 
I’ll get to you off list. It’s too long to post it
here and I wouldn’t want to help clog the forum. 
Thanks for all your comments on “The Essene Gospel”.
Things are getting now more clear every day.

To Jack Kilmon,
After you (and Hindley) touched the point I noticed
the striking similarity of those teachings (Szekely’s
“Essennes”) and the Khabalah which I have studied. It
never occurred to me the connection with
new-age-turn-of-the century mysticism. I did not know
Szekely had claimed translation from Slavonic before
WWII. That only would make him a charlatan alright.
Let alone the entire gospel concoction.


To Russell Gmyrken (again)
Spicy comment, yours on Beskow’s “Strange Tales About
Jesus”. Also the answer from his (supposedly) “Alma
Mater” to the effect that they never had a PhD
Dissertation, nor record on any thesis advisors is
quite enlightening. Grateful I am.

I think this will be the end to Dr. Fakehely’s dirty
tricks. I feel that thousands of people have been
cheated with his books. I also think is our duty to
unmask this and any other of such practices, so he
wont deceive any more people. I’ll do my best.

Thanks again to the panel members and to ORION. It’s a
privilege to be here with such a pack of fine
scholars. I apologize for my impatience on resenting
what I felt were inflated-egos Crhristians and Jewish
alike. And finally: God! how I’d love to be near
Connecticut to attend Schiffman’s conference! I envy
those who can.

Reinaldo Martinez

Anyone also thinks this Fakehely afair should be published?

__
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Re: orion-list Radiocarbon datings and DNA

[RLWinnetka]

Greg Doudna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Marco Rotman wrote on Oct. 22, 2001:
 
  Having followed the discussion so far, it seems to me that Radiocarbon
  datings are useless for dating DSS-fragments (esp. when coming from cave
 4)
  due to the fact that it is unknown if (and if so, how much) castor oil is
  used on the fragment.
  1) Is this conclusion correct?
  2) Would DNA-research lead to more reliable conclusions regarding the date
  of a given manuscript? Or are there similar problems here?
 
 
 What exists now falls a little short of the objective of reliable
 14C datings for individual Qumran texts. Yet this statement
 requires qualification and explanation. In all likelihood most
 of the existing 14C datings on Qumran texts are accurate as
 reported. The problem is that right now it is what I liken to a
 Russian roulette situation--there may be a few dates affected
 by contamination among the 19 Qumran texts dated in the
 Zurich and Tucson series, and our problem is we don't
 know for sure which, or how many.
 
 'Useless' is too strong, however. First, it may be that most
 of the existing datings will be checked and verified at some
 point as having been done on uncontaminated samples, and
 thus the existing datings which are accurate can be distinguished
 from the existing datings for which there may be known
 problems. (rest of useful discussion snipped for brevity)

Greg, since the castor oil was used to enhance the readability of _inscriptions_, it 
seems unlikely to me that the problem is as severe as postulated in the worst case 
study.  Surely the specimens used for destructive carbon 14 testing were taken from 
blank margins, not the actual inscriptions.  Of course, if the specimen were 
thoroughly saturated, the oil could have migrated to the margins also--but probably at 
much lower concentrations.

Robert D. Leonard Jr.
Winnetka, Illinois
U.S.A.
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orion-list Radiocarbon

[Greg Doudna]

Reinaldo Martinez asked:

 Also, regarding your comment to Greg Doudna on radio
 carbon, (Correct me if I am wrong), I understand that
 Mass Acceleration Spectrometry is a more precise, less
 destructive test for dating both organic and inorganic
 samples. Would it perhaps be better for the castor oil
 contaminated scrolls?

Mass Acceleration Spectrometry is a method of
doing radiocarbon dating and has been the method
used already in all Dead Sea text datings. AMS is 
not more accurate or precise than the best of conventional
radiocarbon dating methods. The AMS advantage is not 
in greater accuracy or precision, but in requiring destruction 
of much less material. Due to the sample size consideration, 
AMS is the only practical way of radiocarbon dating texts.

Greg Doudna

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