Re: orion-list Samaritans Watchers + Angels Watchers
David,
I understand the limitations of Strongs. And while I
don't seek to PROVE anything by means of Strongs, I
do use it to EXPLAIN my thoughts and to provide
background of my comments regarding the Hebrew or
Aramaic word in question.
And since I'm not able to read Hebrew or Aramaic, it
can be a useful tool in following the logic of OTHER
contributors to this list. So I assure you, I will
not expect people to agree with me merely because I
make a reference to Strongs. But, for the time being,
I will continue to use Strongs as a point of reference
for discussions, until other lexicon and dictionary
definitions are introduced in a relevant way.
Getting back to your discussion, you write about
'irin and 'ir. And about the meaning of the word
watcher in reference to awake. And you expressed
your skepticism regarding the possible connection
between Samaritans as Watchers, and between Angels
as Watchers.
And yet I found a perfectly marvelous coincidence
just along those lines!
Using a different site:
5892
`iyr [ eer ] or (in the plural) par {awr}; or ayar
(Judges 10:4) {aw-yar'};
from '`uwr' (5782) a city
(a place guarded by waking or a watch)
5893
`Iyr [ eer ] the same as '`iyr' (5892);
Ir, an Israelite:--Ir.
5894
`iyr [ eer ]
(Aramaic) from a root corresponding to '`uwr'
(5782); a watcher, i.e. an angel (as guardian):--watcher.
And what do we see here but another parallel of a
reference to a region and its citizenry (in this case,
Israel), and the term watcher/guard... and SPECIFICALLY
angels. [ In fact, this appears to be the idea behind
even the English phrase guardian angel... but I
digress.]
I do believe the connection between Israel and
Watcher is more than coincidence. In my last
post I had drawn the parallel between the term
for Samaritan and the term for Watcher. And now,
yet again, we find a reference to Israelites
(which would be consistent with the distinction
between those of Israel vs. Judah), which is
phonetically linked to Watchers... and not just
any Watchers but ANGEL watchers.
In the pun-rich literary world of the Jewish
thinkers, I do not think this would have gone unnoticed.
And no doubt the linkage between these word meanings
and the idea that angels were always awake would have
been very attractive to include too.
The Jewish use of puns can make etiologies very tricky
for sure. For a word meaning can evolve that is over-
determined in that it has more than one related
meaning, and EACH meaning is equally valid. If a word
gathers enough puns around it, the original source of
the word can easily become obscured. The word essene
is the textbook example of this. There are lots of
credible explanations for where the word came from,
but we struggle at finding THE source for the word because
it appears that the associated puns had a vitality and
significance too.
In this case, I'm not as concerned about the etiology
of the word watcher or angel as I am in its inevitably
expanded use. And ironically, David, instead of providing
evidence for why the Enochian use of the term Watcher
couldn't be a veiled reference to Samaritan
(i.e., non-Judahite), you've actually provided yet another
clue as to how they COULD be related.
Let's discuss the possibilities a little more, yes?
George Brooks
Tampa, FL
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Re: orion-list Samaritans Watchers + Angels Watchers
David, I find the lack of details in your refutation to be as important as the intolerance of your refutation. Using the very Hebrew term for Angel that you suggested I used, I found a perfectly interesting definition (from a resource with no axe to grind) which SPECIFICALLY links the term Angel to guarding/watching (and not just to waking/watching as you suggested), as well as to a reference to Israelites. And thus we have a DOUBLE correlation with the related terms for Samaritan and Watcher. The key to a valid refutation is to show how the published Hebrew definitions you would prefer to use propose DIFFERENT meanings for the terms. I will patiently wait for you or someone else to provide this. My method, as you would call it, is no different from what others would do with the same information. All 3 words are phonetically identical (or virtually identical), and so the word play potential with these words is evident. What else would you have me do? Totally ignore such AMAZING correlations? I think you overstate the case that in the process I discover nothing. Perhaps you will be more interesting in helping to explore these correlations on another day. Until then, the members of the list will have to contemplate the way these different ideas keep coming together around the Jewish Enochian theme of the Watchers. George Brooks Tampa, FL For private reply, e-mail to George Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Samaritans Watchers + Angels Watchers
since the lines are getting a little weird let me throw in a tangential curve: A friday night sabbath song-- sung universally in many homes-- is in aramaic which borrows phrases from Daniel and weaves them into a breathtaking pastiche with its danielic resonance but totally new composition: its second verse runs (I provide ashkenazic pronunciation because thats how it sounds natural to my polish ears) : I will recite praises morn and eve to you God Holy One, who has created every creature: irin kadishin-- uvenei anosho wild animals and birds of heaven (cf dan 2:38) . now irin kadishin is clearly WATCHERS, HOLY ONES, (Dan 4:14) while the next phrase refers to people.The sense is a transformation and comparison Nebuchnezzar is described in his dream as ruling over people, wild animals (lit animals of the field) and birds, the poet sees Gods domain being higher encompassing angels, plus people animals and birds. However the prosody of the piece suggests breaking it up not angles, holy ones: and people and animals and birds but-- as Angels-- Holy Ones, and bnei anosho, plus animals and birds. a comma coming after anosho. The meolodies I know all break it up this way and it seems to me to be its natural scan. That suggests bnei anosho is also an angelic term for the poet. That suggests a kind of enochian reference to watchers and sons of man. The question is why does the poet join 4:14 (irin) to 2:38 (bnei anosho) -- perhaps just to aggrandize God's realm-- or perhaps because there is a natural allusion for him here and he does not see bnei anosho as simply people. but also as angelic. hence the reference might be to creatures of the lower heavens, the upper heavens; the lower part of the world, the higher part of the world. If so it is the only reference i know of juxtaposing watchers and son(s) of man in an undisputed jewish text. still the internal rhyme might seem to dispute such an interpretation-- irIN kadishIN-- uvenei anoshO, heivat borO veofei shemayO. the counter claim is to group anosho with the first batch to parallel shemayo in the last. 10 syllables (shwas may or may not count) But what seems clear to me is that every stiche in this verse should end in O in this poem--they all do if we group bnei anosho with irin kadishin-- so here is another jump-- maybe not as wild as george's but no less flighty.-- the medieval author knows of ben anash as an angelic term too when coupled with Watchers. Herb Basser [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: David Suter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 4:31 PM Subject: RE: orion-list Samaritans Watchers + Angels Watchers George, With your method you can prove anything you want to prove simply by constructing a roundabout linking of English translations in Strongs. In the process you discover nothing. David Suter Saint Martin's College For private reply, e-mail to Herb Basser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
orion-list Samaritans Watchers
Victory,
You write:
1) What does Buffy the Vampire Slayer have to
do with DSS?
I'll bite what DOES Buffy have to do with the DSS?
Your more serious question was:
2) Could you specify what yo mean by desire to use
a pun to turn praise into shame.
Thanks, Victor
[END OF CLIP]
I'm sure you are familiar with some words and names
that have been amended to make the bible writer's
disapproval of someone fairly evident.
So it doesn't take too much imagination to think
that the Jerusalem leadership might not have wanted
to preserve the more favorable meaning of the word
Samaritan as keeper or doer [of the law].
While there is no obvious shame in the replacement
meaning Watcher it does help to remove the keeper/
doer halo from the Samaritans. Further, we see an
odd use of a word that is phonetically quite similar
to the term related to Samaritan:
08105 shemer {sheh'-mer}
from 08104; TWOT - 2415a; n m pl
AV - lees 4, dregs 1; 5
1) lees, dregs
Here we see shemer = dregs.
But below, we have the adjacent Strong's word:
08104 shamar {shaw-mar'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 2414; v
AV - keep 283, observe 46, heed 35, keeper 28,
preserve 21, beware 9, mark 8, watchman 8, wait 7,
watch 7, regard 5, save 2, misc 9; 468
1) to keep, guard, observe, give heed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to keep, have charge of
1a2) to keep, guard, keep watch and ward,
protect, save life
1a2a) watch, watchman (participle)
1a3) to watch for, wait for
1a4) to watch, observe
1a5) to keep, retain, treasure up (in memory)
1a6) to keep (within bounds), restrain
1a7) to observe, celebrate, keep (sabbath or
covenant or commands), perform (vow)
1a8) to keep, preserve, protect
1a9) to keep, reserve
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be on one's guard, take heed,
take care, beware
1b2) to keep oneself, refrain, abstain
1b3) to be kept, be guarded
1c) (Piel) to keep, pay heed
1d) (Hithpael) to keep oneself from
[END OF CLIP]
As you can see, this word follows quite closely
to the idea of keeping and preserving.
I'm trying to find a concise reference to the
difference of opinion between the Jews and Samaritans
on how their name was TRULY derived.
But in terms of the Enochian watchers it seems
hard to avoid the pun of connecting the wicked and
unpopular angels (called Watchers)... to the wicked
and unpopular Samaritans (called Watchers, Keepers,
and so on).
George
[SIDE NOTE]
I found it interesting that there was another word
that is ALSO connected to idea of keeping or
preserving:
05341 natsar {naw-tsar'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1407; v
AV - keep 38, preserve 13, watchmen 3,
besieged 2, keeper 1, monuments 1,
observe + 07521 1, preserver 1, subtil 1,
hidden things 1, watchers 1; 63
1) to guard, watch, watch over, keep
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to watch, guard, keep
1a2) to preserve, guard from dangers
1a3) to keep, observe, guard with fidelity
1a4) to guard, keep secret
1a5) to be kept close, be blockaded
1a6) watchman (participle)
I find it more than passingly interesting that this
word should be so phonetically similar to another
term that gets thrown around alot:
05342 netser {nay'-tser}
from 05341
TWOT - 1408a; n m
AV - branch 4; 4
1) sprout, shoot, branch (always fig.)
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RE: orion-list Samaritans Watchers
George,
This doesn't work. Strongs is not an appropriate tool for serious
scholarship, and meaning connections based on English equivalents are
much too slippery. The Aramaic term in question for watcher or
angel, (YR ('Ayin-Yod-Resh), means to be awake and designates one of
the immortals (or angels) in contrast to mortals, who sleep (note the
story in the Gilgamesh Epic where Utnapishtim points out to Gilgamesh
that if he cannot stave off sleep, he cannot hope to succeed in his
quest for undying life). It has nothing to do with being a doer or
keeper of the Torah. Even in the Book of Enoch, the term 'ir is
morally neutral, since there are 'irin who remain in heaven as well as
those who take wives and are condemned to the depths of the earth. It's
not going to work as an inversion of Samaritan, which if related to the
root that means watch or guard, would reflect a different connotation.
David Suter
Saint Martin's College
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of George Brooks
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 8:02 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: orion-list Samaritans Watchers
I'm sure you are familiar with some words and names
that have been amended to make the bible writer's
disapproval of someone fairly evident.
So it doesn't take too much imagination to think
that the Jerusalem leadership might not have wanted
to preserve the more favorable meaning of the word
Samaritan as keeper or doer [of the law].
While there is no obvious shame in the replacement
meaning Watcher it does help to remove the keeper/
doer halo from the Samaritans. Further, we see an
odd use of a word that is phonetically quite similar
to the term related to Samaritan:
08105 shemer {sheh'-mer}
from 08104; TWOT - 2415a; n m pl
AV - lees 4, dregs 1; 5
1) lees, dregs
Here we see shemer = dregs.
But below, we have the adjacent Strong's word:
08104 shamar {shaw-mar'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 2414; v
AV - keep 283, observe 46, heed 35, keeper 28,
preserve 21, beware 9, mark 8, watchman 8, wait 7,
watch 7, regard 5, save 2, misc 9; 468
1) to keep, guard, observe, give heed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to keep, have charge of
1a2) to keep, guard, keep watch and ward,
protect, save life
1a2a) watch, watchman (participle)
1a3) to watch for, wait for
1a4) to watch, observe
1a5) to keep, retain, treasure up (in memory)
1a6) to keep (within bounds), restrain
1a7) to observe, celebrate, keep (sabbath or
covenant or commands), perform (vow)
1a8) to keep, preserve, protect
1a9) to keep, reserve
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be on one's guard, take heed,
take care, beware
1b2) to keep oneself, refrain, abstain
1b3) to be kept, be guarded
1c) (Piel) to keep, pay heed
1d) (Hithpael) to keep oneself from
[END OF CLIP]
As you can see, this word follows quite closely
to the idea of keeping and preserving.
I'm trying to find a concise reference to the
difference of opinion between the Jews and Samaritans
on how their name was TRULY derived.
But in terms of the Enochian watchers it seems
hard to avoid the pun of connecting the wicked and
unpopular angels (called Watchers)... to the wicked
and unpopular Samaritans (called Watchers, Keepers,
and so on).
For private reply, e-mail to David Suter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the
message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web
site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
(PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
