orion-list MORE IMPORTANT NEWS

2002-12-31 Thread Orion List Owner

Many of you have expressed regrets at the closing of the Orion List, and I
too would like to add express my regrets, and also provide a little more
of an explanation regarding the decision.

The fundemental problem is that of human resources. At this moment in time
(as it has been for the last two years) there are no interns here at the
Orion Center. This is in part due to the decrease in Students at the
Rothberg school (for obvious reasons). This means the Moderator (that's
me) has more to do, and the proper maintainance of the web site suffers.

All of this has been compounded by the preparations for the Virtual Qumran
addition to the web site, which will double the size of the site and
require more
maintenance. This is even further compounded by my resignation (to be
actioned at the end of this week). The overall effect is that something
has to give, and it was the discussion group.

My hope is that the list will be reopened in some shape or form in the
coming year. My personal recommendatiion is that two lists are opened,
one for research students and lecturers (that will be very carefully
controlled with respect to who is admitted). and the other for general
use. My dream would be to manage a closed discussion group that would be
associated to a series of regular lectures (such as the coffee hour
lectures, or the symposium unedited papers when they are published on
the web site). This would allow the moderator to be more proactively
involved in the discussions. The potential for the list is enormous but
the workers are few. :)

An alternative option is to leave the list open and unmoderated (as some
of you have suggested), but I am absolutley terrified at the potential
havoc this would cause.



...Orion-List Moderator.

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Re: orion-list MORE IMPORTANT NEWS

2002-12-31 Thread Jeffrey B. Gibson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  An alternative option is to leave the list open and unmoderated (as some
  of you have suggested), but I am absolutley terrified at the potential
  havoc this would cause.

 havoc is an understatement.  but i wish the list would continue- for if it
 doesn't the vacuum will be filled by a less worthy and less learned group or
 individual and then more misinformation will spread.


Are there no DSS experts on the List  who are interested in taking on the task
of moderating?

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson



--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
  Floor 1
Chicago, Illinois 60626
e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: orion-list MORE IMPORTANT NEWS

2002-12-31 Thread ethel jean saltz
Great explanation. And quite rational conclusion with respect to my
unscholarly experience with unmoderated lists. I won't even bother with
chat rooms for this reason. Even prefer email discussion groups for this
reason. Too many evangelists on Earth ;) Doesn't take long to spot them. 


 An alternative option is to leave the list open and unmoderated (as some
 of you have suggested), but I am absolutley terrified at the potential
 havoc this would cause.
 
 ...Orion-List Moderator.
 


-- 
Be-ahavah oo-ve-shalom oo-ve-emet, Ethel Jean Saltz
Mac(hiavelli)-Niet(zsche)-Spin(oza)-Gal(ileo), 5370/1609/393 A.G.(after
Galileo/measurement science)
mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: orion-list MORE IMPORTANT NEWS

2002-12-31 Thread Dave Washburn
The b-hebrew list has a team of moderators (3, I think, but don't 
hold me to that) to divide up the workload; I wonder if an 
arrangement like that could be worked out to keep Orion alive?

 Great explanation. And quite rational conclusion with respect to my
 unscholarly experience with unmoderated lists. I won't even bother with
 chat rooms for this reason. Even prefer email discussion groups for this
 reason. Too many evangelists on Earth ;) Doesn't take long to spot them. 
 
 
  An alternative option is to leave the list open and unmoderated (as some
  of you have suggested), but I am absolutley terrified at the potential
  havoc this would cause.
  
Dave Washburn
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
Blessed are the flexible, for they will not be bent out of shape.


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RE: orion-list IMPORTANT NOTICE ORION LIST MEMBERS

2002-12-21 Thread Isidoros
If one more member can register dismay at the list closing prospect,
add to the litany of seekers to please reconsider, and also ask:

is it because of money? server share of costs, etc (or would it be
tolerable if there also be an other incarnation as a Yahoo offshoot)?

is someone's time been stringed too tight? could the burden be
shared? or, be alleviated? could the list go on un-moderated status?
that, given the light, sporadic traffic, would require pragmatically but
an occasional glance, and even rarer control?

There is certainly serious work to be, yet, done in the area, and so it
seems quite paradoxical that DSS / Orion chooses to shut down now.

Certainly ANE and IOUDAIOS are important lists, and aspects of DSS
can be discussed, and maybe even on occasion more appropriately
-- as per the cross-list, topic comparative focus-- there. Yet, there
are issues, central to the DSS, that can be properly discussed only
at a specialized list, I think.

Anyway, keepers probably knowest best. If we could only be let in
in part of this a-knowing... May I say that long time members here
I think really deserve this?

With Greetings to All, and especially with good wishes and Thanks
to the Orion administration and list staff for work done to-date,

Isidoros
The Ionic Centre, Athens

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RE: orion-list The DSS at Ben Gurion, and the Orion List

2002-12-20 Thread avigdor horovitz
Dear Geoff,
I detect some confusion in your letter. The Schiffmann lecture series is a
Ben Gurion University event (not my own department, unfortunately). It is
not an Orion event. Orion has provided
a service by announcing it to a wider audience, and this, I assume, is
what they will continue to do.
Victor



On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Geoff Hudson wrote:

 I would really love to hear Lawrence Schiffman but time and distance does
 not permit.  In this electronic age there is the capability to  compensate
 for the impossibility of being in two places at the same time.
 
 I think that the Orion site will be missed by a number of people who have
 used it more than me.  Perhaps the owners would reconsider their decision.
 At a difficult time politically for Israel, it is surely important to
 maintain links however small with the outside world.  Issues of flaming
 are secondary, and have not been a big problem here.  Does the ANE have too
 wide a scope?  There is plenty remaining that could be discussed, for
 example the Scrolls version of the OT.
 
 Geoff Hudson
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
 Behalf Of Rochelle I. Altman
 Sent: 19 December 2002 11:13
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: orion-list The DSS at Ben Gurion
 
 
 While there is still time to send announcements,
 this may be of interest to members of ORION:
 
 Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
 Distinguished Visitors Program
 
 Blechner Chair in Jewish Values
 
 Department of History
 
 Cordially invite you to lectures:
 By
 Prof. Lawrence H. Sch


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orion-list Don't suppress Orion List

2002-12-20 Thread mireille.belis
I quite agree with Geoff. Even if I do not participate, I am always
interested  by each contribution. Yes, could the owners reconsider their
decision? Among the questions still to be discussed, let us add archaeology.
Mireille Bélis


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RE: orion-list IMPORTANT NOTICE ORION LIST MEMBERS

2002-12-20 Thread Moshe Shulman
At 07:50 PM 12/16/02 -0800, you wrote:

I'm sorry to see the Orion discussion list go, and would like to express
my thanks to all who began and have maintained it over the years.  Its
departure will leave a void.  While it may not have been very active


I would also like to add my agreement here. I am sorry for this. While I am 
not a 'scholar', but a layman who has studied the scrolls in the original 
as part of an interest in Judaism of the late second temple period, I will 
miss much of the information that I have found here.  We all come from 
different backgrounds, and that makes us approach what we read in different 
manners.  This is very good, in that it helps to get a fuller picture of 
the issues. However, I have seen, unfortunately, that some people come to 
scholarly lists with an agenda, and try to claim it is just a difference in 
perspective. This has caused many of the scholarly lists on the Internet to 
lose any value, to either the scholars who had been involved or those who 
wish to interact with scholars for serious reasons. The choice then is to 
either close the list, or place it under heavy moderation.


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RE: orion-list IMPORTANT NOTICE ORION LIST MEMBERS

2002-12-20 Thread Dave Washburn
 At 07:50 PM 12/16/02 -0800, you wrote:
 I'm sorry to see the Orion discussion list go, and would like to express
 my thanks to all who began and have maintained it over the years.  Its
 departure will leave a void.  While it may not have been very active
 
 I would also like to add my agreement here. I am sorry for this. While I am 
 not a 'scholar', but a layman who has studied the scrolls in the original 
 as part of an interest in Judaism of the late second temple period, I will 
 miss much of the information that I have found here.  We all come from 
 different backgrounds, and that makes us approach what we read in different 
 manners.  This is very good, in that it helps to get a fuller picture of 
 the issues. However, I have seen, unfortunately, that some people come to 
 scholarly lists with an agenda, and try to claim it is just a difference in 
 perspective. This has caused many of the scholarly lists on the Internet to 
 lose any value, to either the scholars who had been involved or those who 
 wish to interact with scholars for serious reasons. The choice then is to 
 either close the list, or place it under heavy moderation.

Add me to the list of those who would like to see this decision 
reversed.  If heavy moderation is necessary, I have no problem with 
that (and I've been placed on moderated posting before!).  

Dave Washburn
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
Blessed are the flexible, for they will not be bent out of shape.


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orion-list Announcing the More Old Testament Pseudepigrapha Project

2002-12-19 Thread James R. Davila
The origin points of this message are the Ioudaios-L, Orion, and 
otpseud/mediators/qumran (St. Andrews) discussion lists.  Please feel 
free to forward to any other individual or list which might be 
interested.  Apologies for duplications.

My colleague, Richard Bauckham, and I are currently beginning work on 
a project to publish a volume of Old Testament Pseudepigrapha which 
are not covered (or in some cases, thanks to new discoveries, not 
covered fully) in the two volumes of Old Testament Pseudepigrapha 
edited by James Charlesworth.  Information on the More Old Testament 
Pseudepigrapha Project can be found at 
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/%7ewww_sd/MOTP/index.html.  Please have a 
look and send us any feedback you have, such as possible texts for 
inclusion which we might have missed.

Best wishes and happy holidays,

Jim Davila
--
Dr. Jim Davila
St. Mary's College
University of St. Andrews
St. Andrews, Fife KY16 9JU
Scotland
Tel.:  +44 1334 462834
Fax.:  +44 1334 462852
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/jrd4.html

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orion-list correction re Announcing the More Old Testament PseudepigraphaProject

2002-12-19 Thread James R. Davila
Sorry, wrong URL given in previous message.  The correct one is:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/%7ewww_sd/MOTP/index-motp.html

Jim


The origin points of this message are the Ioudaios-L, Orion, and 
otpseud/mediators/qumran (St. Andrews) discussion lists.  Please 
feel free to forward to any other individual or list which might be 
interested.  Apologies for duplications.

My colleague, Richard Bauckham, and I are currently beginning work 
on a project to publish a volume of Old Testament Pseudepigrapha 
which are not covered (or in some cases, thanks to new discoveries, 
not covered fully) in the two volumes of Old Testament 
Pseudepigrapha edited by James Charlesworth.  Information on the 
More Old Testament Pseudepigrapha Project can be found at 
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/%7ewww_sd/MOTP/index.html.  Please have 
a look and send us any feedback you have, such as possible texts for 
inclusion which we might have missed.

Best wishes and happy holidays,

Jim Davila
--
Dr. Jim Davila
St. Mary's College
University of St. Andrews
St. Andrews, Fife KY16 9JU
Scotland
Tel.:  +44 1334 462834
Fax.:  +44 1334 462852
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/jrd4.html

--



Dr. Jim Davila
St. Mary's College
University of St. Andrews
St. Andrews, Fife KY16 9JU
Scotland
Tel.:  +44 1334 462834
Fax.:  +44 1334 462852
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/jrd4.html

Apologies for the regrettably necessary legal blather below.
***
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Re: orion-list [ANE] The Restructuring of ORION (offlist)

2002-12-18 Thread RGmyrken
Dear Rochelle,

You do seem to run a fairly tight ship at IOUDAIOS-L.

Russell Gm.

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orion-list ....A new Place to Discuss Qumran

2002-12-18 Thread George Brooks
For the few members of Orion that are not already members
of ANE, Jim Thorn shows that discussion of Essenes and 
Qumran topics can be pursued on ANE when Orion no longer
supports moderated discussions.


 From Dr. Jones's periodically posted rules:
  
  ANE is a mailing list on topics and issues of interest in Ancient
  Near Eastern Studies, from the Indus to the Nile, and from the
  beginnings of human habitation to the rise of Islam.
  
  Jim Thorn
  Chicago, IL

Here is an introductory page to ANE for those who are
interested.  


xx
www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE_EMAIL.html

ELECTRONIC LIST FOR THE DISCUSSION OF THE ANCIENT NEAR EAST 
ANE is an unmoderated electronic mailing list on the Internet focusing on
topics and issues of interest in ancient Near Eastern studies, from the
Indus to the Nile, and from the beginnings of human habitation to the
rise of Islam. The ANE list is open to anyone, and new members are warmly
welcomed. The discussions will assume a knowledgeable background in the
cultures of the ancient Near East.

List communications are by electronic mail messages sent to each
subscriber. Two forms of the ANE list are available: in either the
standard format (ANE) or in digest form (ANE-DIGEST), which combines a
series of separate contributions to ANE into a single electronic mail
message to the user.

The ANE and ANE-DIGEST lists currently have more than 750 subscribers
world-wide, with an daily average of 10 mailings to each subscriber and a
peak output of 30-40 messages. A wide range of topics are discussed on
the ANE list: new discoveries and publications in the field, public
debate on controversial issues of policy and scholarship, job placement
information, and other musings by subscribers.


To subscribe to ANE, send the message (in the body, not the header)
subscribe ANE
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following description may be of interest.  The Oriental Institute uses a 
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These commands allow someone to subscribe, unsubscribe, find out which 
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your message in the subject line of your email message.  Feel free to 
participate actively in the discussions on the ANE list.  If anyone 
encounters problems relating to ANE list please contact either the ANE
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owner, Charles E. Jones, or the Majordomo administrator, John C. Sanders,

at the addresses below.

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Institute WWW Server.

x

George Brooks
Tampa, FL

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orion-list The DSS at Ben Gurion

2002-12-18 Thread Rochelle I. Altman
While there is still time to send announcements,
this may be of interest to members of ORION:

Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
Distinguished Visitors Program

Blechner Chair in Jewish Values

Department of History

Cordially invite you to lectures:
By
Prof. Lawrence H. Schiffman

24.12. 02 Lecture
Prof. Lawrence H. Schiffman, New York University:
The Hasmoneans and the Dead Sea Scrolls
Department of History Seminar, 16:00-18:00

25.12. 02 Public Lecture
Prof. Lawrence H. Schiffman, New York University:
Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls
Conference Room 'Alef', 18:00-19:30

29.12. 92 Public Slide Lecture
Prof. Lawrence H. Schiffman, New York University:
Scholars, Scrolls and Scandals, The Dead Sea
Scrolls and the History of Judaism
Conference Room 'Alef,'  18:00-19:00

30.12. 02 Lecture
Prof. Lawrence H. Schiffman, New York University:
The Concept of Covenant in Rabbinic Literature and the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Building 72, Room 488, 14:00-16:00



Regards,

Rochelle
--
Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Subject: Re: orion-list [ANE] The Restructuring of ORION and a newPlace to

2002-12-17 Thread Rochelle I. Altman
Sorry, forgot to change the date back again... soon, soon this too will pass.
Once again, with mixed feelings...

Russell,

[snip]

   Some of the more thoughtful, original
   scrolls scholars have basically given up on list discussions
   (including Orion) from being flamed or misrepresented a few times
   too often - sometimes by lurkers banned from Orion who do their
   flaming on other lists.

Including ANE, unfortunately -- and they try, but don't get by me
on IOUDAIOS-L.

   This sort of censorship by discourtesy is unfortunate and has led
   to the demise of on-line scrolls discussion (IMO).

I have to agree.

   For the moment there appears to be no list for scrolls
   scholars, now probably including Orion, which is a real pity.

   Best regards,
   Russell Gmirkin

The time frame is all right, but... sad experience and all that.
I'll ask the committee members if we can tolerate much discussion
of the DSS on IOUDAIOS-L knowing the perils... we do put anyone who
practices this type of censorship by discourtesy on moderated status,
and if does not stop, removal, so... maybe.

I'll let people know before the end of December.

Rochelle

--
Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: orion-list IMPORTANT NOTICE ORION LIST MEMBERS

2002-12-17 Thread jwest
  PLEASE NOTE THAT AT THE END OF THE YEAR THE ORION LIST WILL 
  CEASE TO FUNCTION AS IT PREVIOUSLY HAD.
  
  THERE WILL NO LONGER BE A MODERATED DISCUSSION GROUP. INSTEAD 
  OF THIS, THE MAILING LIST WILL BE A WAY FOR LIST MEMBERS TO 
  RECEIVE INFORMATION ABOUT ORION CENTER ACTIVITIES.
  
  THIS CHANGE IS DUE TO A RESHAPING OF THE ORION CENTER AND 
  REDISTRIBUTION OF CENTER STAFF.
  
  ...Orion-List Moderator.

as we said in the 70's,

bummer.


jim

++

Jim West, ThD

Biblical Studies Resources
http://web.infoave.net/~jwest


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RE: orion-list IMPORTANT NOTICE ORION LIST MEMBERS

2002-12-16 Thread David Suter
I'm sorry to see the Orion discussion list go, and would like to express
my thanks to all who began and have maintained it over the years.  Its
departure will leave a void.  While it may not have been very active
recently, it has in the past been a place where, at least on occasion,
one could get a response from first-rank scholars.  Is it possible that
the decision could be reconsidered?  At least it would be helpful if the
Orion Center could share with the members of the list what went into the
decision to discontinue the discussion list, and what the plans for the
Orion Center are at present.  Will the Center continue to maintain
bibliographies, for example?  Can some thought be given to serving the
need for information of those scholars who cannot come to Hebrew
University to participate more directly in the programs of the Center?

Best wishes,

David Suter
Saint Martin's College

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Orion List Owner
 Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 11:10 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: orion-list IMPORTANT NOTICE ORION LIST MEMBERS
 
 
 
 
 PLEASE NOTE THAT AT THE END OF THE YEAR THE ORION LIST WILL 
 CEASE TO FUNCTION AS IT PREVIOUSLY HAD.
 
 THERE WILL NO LONGER BE A MODERATED DISCUSSION GROUP. INSTEAD 
 OF THIS, THE MAILING LIST WILL BE A WAY FOR LIST MEMBERS TO 
 RECEIVE INFORMATION ABOUT ORION CENTER ACTIVITIES.
 
 THIS CHANGE IS DUE TO A RESHAPING OF THE ORION CENTER AND 
 REDISTRIBUTION OF CENTER STAFF.
 
 ...Orion-List Moderator.


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orion-list Re: [ANE] The Restructuring of ORION and a new Place to Discuss Qumran

2002-12-16 Thread RGmyrken
George,

Technically, the period when the Dead Sea Scrolls were written (i.e. 2nd 
and 1st century BCE) is later than ANE is intended for.  Occasional postings 
on the scrolls used to be tolerated, though.  My understanding is that past 
discussions of scrolls topics on ANE tended to violate the list's standards 
of courtesy, etc., so that the moderator finally asked that the subject be 
discussed elsewhere (at the time, Orion).  Some of the more thoughtful, 
original scrolls scholars have basically given up on list discussions 
(including Orion) from being flamed or misrepresented a few times too often - 
sometimes by lurkers banned from Orion who do their flaming on other lists.  
This sort of censorship by discourtesy is unfortunate and has led to the 
demise of on-line scrolls discussion (IMO).  For the moment there appears to 
be no list for scrolls scholars, now probably including Orion, which is a 
real pity.

Best regards,
Russell Gmirkin

(P.S. Cross-posting on Orion.)

  Russell Gmirkin and Others,
  
  Russell recently wrote:
  This really isn't the proper forum for Qumran discussions...
  
  Today I just received word that Orion was no longer going
  to be supporting a discussion list.
  
  Other than this list [ANE], where would be a better place
  to discuss Qumran, Essene and related issues?
  
  George Brooks
  Tampa, FL
  USA

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orion-list IMPORTANT NOTICE ORION LIST MEMBERS

2002-12-14 Thread Orion List Owner


PLEASE NOTE THAT AT THE END OF THE YEAR THE ORION LIST WILL CEASE TO
FUNCTION AS IT PREVIOUSLY HAD.

THERE WILL NO LONGER BE A MODERATED DISCUSSION GROUP. INSTEAD OF THIS, THE
MAILING LIST WILL BE A WAY FOR LIST MEMBERS TO RECEIVE INFORMATION ABOUT
ORION CENTER ACTIVITIES.

THIS CHANGE IS DUE TO A RESHAPING OF THE ORION CENTER AND REDISTRIBUTION
OF CENTER STAFF.

...Orion-List Moderator.



For private reply, e-mail to Orion List Owner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web
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orion-list Wisdom conference update

2002-11-30 Thread avigdor horovitz
The Department of Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
Of
The Ben-Gurion University in the Negev, Beer Sheva
Invites you to a one-day conference on
WISDOM- HER PILLARS ARE SEVEN
Wisdom Literature in Ancient Israel and Surrounding Cultures
Which will take place on
Sunday, 12 January, 2003 (9 Shevat, 5763)
In the Kreitman Building, Conference Hall A

Lectures

9:30-12:30 Morning Session
Prof. Michael Fox, University of Wisconsin, Madison
Concepts of Wisdom in the Book of Proverbs

Dr. Nili Shupak, Haifa University
Teach the Lad in His Own Way - Ways of Acquiring Wisdom

Dr. Tova Forti, Ben Gurion University
Honey and the Sting - From Realia to Metaphor in Wisdom Literature

14:00-16:30 Afternoon Session
Prof. Galit Hasan-Rokem, Hebrew University
Proverbs- An Oral Mode of Canonization?

Prof. Ed Greenstein, Tel Aviv University
Wisdom in the Book of Job - With a Question Mark?

Dr. Shamir Yona, Ben Gurion University
The Proverbs of Ahiqar and Wisdom Literature - Aspects of Content and
Style

Prof. Victor Hurowitz, Ben Gurion University
The Counsels of Shupe-amelum

All lectures will be given in Hebrew

For additional information contact
Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
Dept. of Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
Ben-Gurion University
Beer Sheva
972-8-6461036
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






For private reply, e-mail to avigdor horovitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the
message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web
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orion-list SBL E-Lister's Meeting

2002-11-22 Thread Jeffrey B. Gibson
With apologies for cross posting:

Here is the final tally of those E-Listers from Corpus Paulinum,
B-Greek, Xtalk, Synoptic-L, etc. who will be attending SBL and who
intend (if possible) to make it to the 6th Annual E-Lister's gathering
tomorrow, Saturday, Nov. 23rd, at 11am at the Gramcord Institute's Booth
(booth 622).

My thanks to all who responded to my calls for names and information
on presentations. My apologies to anyone whom I failed to list or whose
name and presentation data might have fudged.

See you soon!

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson

*
B-GREEK

James Ernest, Hendrickson Publishers
Presenting a paper entitled Ceslas Spicq among the Lexicographers in
the Biblical Lexicography Section / Christian Theology and the Bible
Group Monday afternoon 4:00-6:00 pm (S25-103) RY-British Columbia

Steven Gunderson, University of Surrey Roehampton
Giving a paper on Pronouns in John's Gospel in the Biblical Greek
Language  Linguistics Section

Jan Hailey
No Paper

Carlton Winbery
No Paper

Ken Penner
No Paper

Randall Buth
presenting a paper at Aramaic Studies RY-Whistler, Sunday 4-6pm “Where
Is the Aramaic Bible at Qumran? Scripture Use in the First Century

and representing Rothberg, Hebrew University with a new undergraduate
program designed for Christian Biblical Studies majors. (c/o Accordance,
Oaktree Software booth)

Susan Jeffers
no paper

Bill Warren
No Paper

Trevor Peterson, CUA/Semitics
No Paper

James Bowick – at the Harper Collins/Harper San Francisco Booth
No Paper


CORPUS PAULINUM
James C. Miller (whi is not to be confused with the other Jim Millers)
No Paper

Nicolai Techow, Doctoral Student Department of Biblical Exegesis,
Faculty of Theology University of Copenhagen
No Paper

Bert Jan Lietaert Peerbolte, Associate Professor for New Testament,
Kampen Theological University, The Netherlands
No Paper – but will be carrying the manuscript of his new book on Paul
(_Paul the
Missionary-) with him for previews

Mark Nanos
reviewing Stegemann's _The Jesus Movement: A Social History of Its First
Century_ in the Social Scientific Criticism and the New Testament
Section, S23-119, Saturday from 4-6:30pm, at RY-Quebec.

Norman Hutchinson
No paper

Peter Zaas
No Paper

Jim Miller
Presenting a paper in the Matthew Section  Sunday Morning (S24-17),
Divorce in the Gospel of Matthew.

Lynn Allan Kauppi  --representing Abingdon Books
No Paper

Kent L. Yinger
No paper

Edgar Krentz
No paper but participating in the Hellenistic Ethics and the NT
Translation Project of Cornutus

Lareta Finger
No Paper

Jeffrey Gibson
Presenting a paper entitled “Paul's ‘Dying Formula’: Prolegomena to  an
Understanding of its Import and Significance”  on Monday, November 25th
in the Rhetoric and the New   Testament Section (S25-119) (session is
from 4:00-6:30pm).

Phil Quanbeck II, Assoc Prof. of Religion Augsburg College, Minneapolis,
MN
presenting a paper  titled:   What Then Shall We Say:  Silence,
Speech  and the Meta-Argument of Romans 3-11. in the poster session , S
24-65 on Sunday afternoon.

Eli Elliot
presenting a paper entitled, Attis: A Cubist Portrayal as part of a
panel on polytheism in the Greco-Roman Religions Section of the SBL,
Monday morning, in a session starting at 9am.

William S. Campbell, Department of Theology and Religious Studies
University of Wales, Lampeter
No Paper

Gary W Burnett, MBCS
No Paper

Stephen Finlan, U. of Durham
No paper

Grady Snyder
Presenting a paper on Sunday morning at the Greco-Roman Religions
section entitled The Conversionary Use of Graeco-Roman Symbols in Early
Christian Art.

Kathy Ehrensperger
presenting a paper to be discussed in the Romans through History and
Cultures Seminar Saturday 4pm -6:30pm


G-THOMAS

Mike Grondin
No Paper


E-MATTHEW

Ernest M. Ezeogu (Ph.D. Cand) Toronto School of Theology
No Paper

SYNOPTIC -L

Stephen Carlson
No Paper

Thomas R. W. Longstaff, Crawford Family Professor of Religious Studies,
Emeritus Colby College

David Barrett Peabody, Professor of Religion, Nebraska Wesleyan
University
not giving a paper at the meeting, but will be in Toronto in conjunction
with the release of a new book and a new, color-coded, electronic
synopsis of Mark and its parallels. Both should be available during the
meeting in the Trinity Press International booth.

Publication information on the book is as follows:

David B. Peabody with Lamar Cope and Allan J. McNicol, eds., *One Gospel
from Two - Mark's Use of Matthew and Luke. A Demonstration by the
Research Team of the International Institute for Renewal of Gospel
Studies* (Harrisburg, PA: Trinity Press International, 2002) xvi +
426pp.  ISBN 1-56338-352-7

The publication information on the electronic synopsis is as follows:

David Barrett Peabody and Thomas R. W. Longstaff, *A Synopsis of Mark. A
Synopsis of the First Three Gospels Showing the Parallels to the Markan
Text (Published by the authors; Distributed by Trinity Press
International, 2002)

Mark A. Matson,  Academic Dean, Milligan College
no paper


orion-list Addendum - Descriptions of PSCO Toronto Panelists (long!)

2002-11-20 Thread Annette Yoshiko Reed
In order to facilitate discussion in the Toronto PSCO panel on
Parabiblical Literature  (this Friday, 8-10 pm, Royal York Hotel,
Quebec Room), we have gathered short descriptions from some of the
participants (James Davila, Ingrid Hjelm, Andrew Jacobs, Robert Kraft,
Annette Reed, John Reeves), which are attached below.

We are now in the process of gathering brief introductory statements
from others with interests in the topic -- including those who are
unable to join us in Toronto. These summaries, together with the
summaries of our panelists' interests, will be posted shortly on the
PSCO website (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/psco). If you would like to
submit a self-description to add to our list, please e-mail either Bob
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) or Annette ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).
 
[[Apologies again for cross-posting!!!]] 
_

James Davila (University of St. Andrews in Scotland)

My name is Jim Davila and I am a lecturer in early Jewish studies at the
University of St. Andrews in Scotland.  My major area of research is
Jewish
traditions in the Second Temple period and late antiquity and the
interface
of those traditions with early Christianity.  My interests in the
so-called
parabiblical literature go back to my dissertation work at Harvard in
the
late 1980s.  The Dead Sea Scrolls that I editied under the supervision
of
Frank Cross were canonical texts (Genesis and Exodus) but working with
them
and trying to place them (if only for my own peace of mind) into the
thought
world of the Qumran library gave me my first taste of the problems that
arise when we try to understand the ancient views about scripture.
Since
that time I have published a commentary on the Qumran liturgical works
and a
monograph on the Hekhalot literature as well as two conference volumes
on
aspects the relationship between early Judaism and early Christianity.
At
St. Andrews I regularly teach a course on the Dead Sea Scrolls and
another
on the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, both of which have periodically
generated international discussion lists and extensive web pages (see
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/%7ewww_sd/jrd4.html for more information).
The
otpseud course has focused especially on the problem of deciding whether
a
given pseudepigraphon is a Jewish composition or a Christian composition
that set out to look authentically Old Testament (or something else).
I
am currently writing a monograph on this question.

Turning to the topic of the panel discussion, parabiblical literature,
I
note that many of the terminology problems that beset the Old Testament
Pseudepigrapha, New Testament Apocrypha, and noncanonical
literature in
general is that biblicists working with (explicit or implicit) canonical
assumptions have framed the terms of the discussion and coined the
terminology we use.  The terms Bible, Apocrypha, Pseudepigrapha,
etc.,
are all historical artifacts conditioned by a set of assumptions that
didn't
exist in the second temple period and were only starting to be
formulated in
late antiquity.  Indeed, some of them did not arise until the Protestant
Reformation.

_

Ingrid Hjelm (University of Copenhagen)

My name is Ingrid Hjelm. In July, I finished my Ph.D. dissertation on
Jerusalem's Rise to Sovereignty in Ancient Tradition and History: Zion
and
Gerizim in Competition (forthcoming, Sheffield Academic Press, 2003),
which
will be defended this December at the Theology Faculty in the University
of
Copenhagen. The dissertation represents continued research on Jewish and
Samaritan relationship, which I began in 1996. Its first major result
was
my Samaritans and Early Judaism: A Literary Analysis (published in the
Copenhagen International Series with Sheffield Academic Press, 2000).

Whether one places the origin of Samaritanism in representations of an
eight-century Assyrian policy of deportation, based on a story of 2
Kings
17, of a fifth-century expulsion of a priest serving at the temple in
Jerusalem, based on a remark in Nehemiah 13, of a fourth-century deceit
of
the Persian King Darius at the advance of Alexander the Great, based on
Josephus' Alexander-legend, or of a second-century quarrel among
priests
in Jerusalem's temple based on Josephus' Antiochus IV story and the
Books of
Maccabees, all scholarly resolutions have agreed on the validity of one
or
other 'Jewish' story about Samaritan origin and the Samaritan
community's
departure from a Jerusalem centred Judaism. This alleged departure was
followed by a final schism, usually dated to the second century BCE,
based
on Josephus' John Hyrcanus story and scholarship's claim for a
development
of the Samaritan script and Pentateuch at the time. The assumption of
the
formation of a distinct Samaritanism at such a late date has moved the
general area of interest in Samaritanology away from the biblical texts
to
studies in Pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha, DSS and 

orion-list Update/Reminder, Toronto PSCO Panel of Parabiblical Literature

2002-11-20 Thread Annette Yoshiko Reed
Please find below updated information about the special Toronto session
of
the PSCO this Friday, to which all are welcome to attend. Apologies, as
always, for the inevitable host of cross-postings...

All the best,

Annette


***Announcement of a Special, pre-SBL/AAR Toronto Meeting of the
 Philadelphia Seminar on Christian Origins (PSCO) on Parabiblical
 Literature***

22 November 2002, 8-10 pm, Quebec Room of the Royal York Hotel.

Moderated by Robert Kraft (University of Pennsylvania) and Annette Y.
Reed
(Princeton University)

Panelists:
*Gary Anderson (Harvard University)
*James R. Davila (St.Andrews University, Scotland)
*Devorah Dimant (Haifa University, Israel)
*Ingrid Hjelm (University of Copenhagen, Denmark)
*Andrew Jacobs (University of California, Riverside)
*John Reeves (University of North Carolina at Charlotte)

The PSCO is in its 40th year (see http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/psco/).
Since its topic for the
current year -- Parabiblical Literature -- is of wide interest for
students and scholars of both Jewish and Christian scriptures and
related
literature, its co-chairs have decided to take advantage of the presence
of a large and international
group of specialists at the Toronto meetings and hold a special session
there.

The session hopes to bring together experts (both on our panel and in
our
audience) whose knowledge and insights will contribute to productive
discussion of the topic of apparently authoritative written materials
that
we look back on as extrabiblical yet as, at the same time, similar in
various ways to what became biblical for (especially but not only)
Judaism
and Christianity. Part of the discussion will involve the question of
appropriate terminology (e.g. pseudepigrapha,
 rewritten Bible, biblical paraphrase, etc.). 

For summaries of our discussions so far, both at the first meeting of
this year's PSCO and in Bob's graduate seminar on the same theme, see:
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/courses/735/Parabiblical/intro.htm.
A separate email will follow with more details about the panelists in
the upcoming Toronto session and the topics that they will be
discussing. Updated information, both about the Toronto session and
about the rest of the PSCO schedule for this year, can be found at:
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/psco/topic.shtml

Please feel free to distribute this notice to anyone who might be
interested in attending the Toronto PSCO session, or in the project more
broadly.

We hope to see you in Toronto!

Annette Yoshiko Reed (Princeton University), co-chair
Robert A. Kraft (University of Pennsylvania), co-chair
Todd C. Krulak (University of Pennsylvania), special recording secretary
Tennyson J. Wellman (University of Pennsylvania), recording secretary
Jay C. Treat (University of Pennsylvania), technical coordinator


For private reply, e-mail to Annette Yoshiko Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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orion-list Update -- SBL E-Lister's Meeting

2002-11-19 Thread Jeffrey B. Gibson
Here's an update on those members of the Biblical Academic E-Lists who
will/hope to be attending (circumstances permitting) the 6th annual SBL
E-Listers gathering on Nov. 23rd at 11am in the exhibition hall at the
Gramcord booth.

If you are planning on attending SBL and/or the E-Lister's meeting but
have not yet let me know of your plans, please do so OFF LIST (via
[EMAIL PROTECTED]), stating

(1) if and when and under what aegis you are presenting a paper, AND

(2) what you consider to be your home  E-List, and

(3) any university or academic affiliation you might wish me to place
beside your name in the final tally that I'll send out on the morning
of Nov. 22nd.

For information on this year's SBL Annual Meeting (Nov. 23rd-26th in
Toronto), go to:

http://www.sbl-site2.org/Congresses/AM/AM_Index.php3

Yours,

Jeffrey


B-GREEK

Steven Gunderson, University of Surrey Roehampton
Giving a paper on Pronouns in John's Gospel in the Biblical Greek
Language  Linguistics Section

Jan Hailey
No Paper

Carlton Winbery
No Paper

Ken Penner
No Paper

Randall Buth
presenting a paper at Aramaic Studies RY-Whistler, Sunday 4-6pm “Where
Is the Aramaic Bible at Qumran? Scripture Use in the First Century

and representing Rothberg, Hebrew University with a new undergraduate
program designed for Christian Biblical Studies majors. (c/o Accordance,
Oaktree Software booth)

Susan Jeffers
no paper

Bill Warren
No Paper

Trevor Peterson, CUA/Semitics
No Paper

James Bowick – at the Harper Collins/Harper San Francisco Booth
No Paper


CORPUS PAULINUM

Nicolai Techow, Doctoral Student Department of Biblical Exegesis,
Faculty of Theology
University of Copenhagen
No Paper

Bert Jan Lietaert Peerbolte, Associate Professor for New Testament,
Kampen Theological University, The Netherlands
No Paper – but will be carrying the manuscript of his new book on Paul
(_Paul the
Missionary-) with him for previews

Mark Nanos
reviewing Stegemann's _The Jesus Movement: A Social History of Its First
Century_ in the Social Scientific Criticism and the New Testament
Section, S23-119, Saturday from 4-6:30pm, at RY-Quebec.

Norman Hutchinson
No paper

Peter Zaas
No Paper

Jim Miller
Presenting a paper in the Matthew Section  Sunday Morning (S24-17),
Divorce in the Gospel of Matthew.

Lynn Allan Kauppi  --representing Abingdon Books
No Paper

Kent L. Yinger
No paper

Edgar Krentz
No paper but participating in the Hellenistic Ethics and the NT
Translation Project of Cornutus

Lareta Finger
No Paper

Jeffrey Gibson
Presenting a paper entitled “Paul's ‘Dying Formula’: Prolegomena to  an
Understanding of its Import and Significance”  on Monday, November 25th
in the Rhetoric and the New   Testament Section (S25-119) (session is
from 4:00-6:30pm).

Phil Quanbeck II, Assoc Prof. of Religion Augsburg College, Minneapolis,
MN
presenting a paper  titled:   What Then Shall We Say:  Silence,
Speech  and the Meta-Argument of Romans 3-11. in the poster session , S
24-65 on Sunday afternoon.

Eli Elliot
presenting a paper entitled, Attis: A Cubist Portrayal as part of a
panel on polytheism in the Greco-Roman Religions Section of the SBL,
Monday morning, in a session starting at 9am.

William S. Campbell, Department of Theology and Religious Studies
University of Wales, Lampeter
No Paper

Gary W Burnett, MBCS
No Paper

Stephen Finlan, U. of Durham
No paper

Grady Snyder
Presenting a paper on Sunday morning at the Greco-Roman Religions
section entitled The Conversionary Use of Graeco-Roman Symbols in Early
Christian Art.

Kathy Ehrensperger
presenting a paper to be discussed in the Romans through History and
Cultures Seminar Saturday 4pm -6:30pm

E-MATTHEW

Ernest M. Ezeogu (Ph.D. Cand) Toronto School of Theology
No Paper

SYNOPTIC -L
Thomas R. W. Longstaff, Crawford Family Professor of Religious Studies,
Emeritus Colby College

David Barrett Peabody, Professor of Religion, Nebraska Wesleyan
University
not giving a paper at the meeting, but will be in Toronto in conjunction
with the release of a new book and a new, color-coded, electronic
synopsis of Mark and its parallels. Both should be available during the
meeting in the Trinity Press International booth.

Publication information on the book is as follows:

David B. Peabody with Lamar Cope and Allan J. McNicol, eds., *One Gospel
from Two - Mark's Use of Matthew and Luke. A Demonstration by the
Research Team of the International Institute for Renewal of Gospel
Studies* (Harrisburg, PA: Trinity Press International, 2002) xvi +
426pp.  ISBN 1-56338-352-7

The publication information on the electronic synopsis is as follows:

David Barrett Peabody and Thomas R. W. Longstaff, *A Synopsis of Mark. A
Synopsis of the First Three Gospels Showing the Parallels to the Markan
Text (Published by the authors; Distributed by Trinity Press
International, 2002)

Mark A. Matson,  Academic Dean, Milligan College
no paper

Mark Goodacre,  Dept of Theology University of Birmingham
CARG, Saturday, 1-3.30 p.m.: With 

orion-list Participants' List at Annual SBL E-Listers' Meeting

2002-11-14 Thread Jeffrey B. Gibson
Here is the List (as it stands so far) of those who are attending (or who
are hoping to attend) the 6th Annual E-Listers' Meeting on Saturday, Nov.
23rd at 11am at the Gramcord Booth during the SBL Annual Meeting -- this
year in Toronto.  For those of you who have heard about this meeting and/or
who have not yet responded to me regarding whether you intend to attend, see
below.

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson


B-Greek

Steven Gunderson, University of Surrey Roehampton
  giving a paper at the Biblical Greek Language  Linguistice Section,
'The Use of Discourse Analysis in
  Character Studies:Nicodemus and the Woman at the Well'.

Jan Hailey
No Paper

Carlton Winbery
  No Paper

Ken Penner
  No Paper

Randall Buth
presenting a paper at Aramaic Studies RY-Whistler, Sunday 4-6pm “Where
Is the Aramaic Bible
at Qumran? Scripture Use in the First Century

and representing Rothberg, Hebrew University with a new undergraduate
  program designed for Christian Biblical Studies majors. (c/o
Accordance,
  Oaktree Software booth)

 Susan Jeffers
  no paper

 Bill Warren
  presenting a paper on Monday afternoon in the NTTC section

 Trevor Peterson, CUA/Semitics
  No Paper

Corpus Paulinum

 Mark Nanos
 one of several panelists reviewing the Stegemann's _The Jesus Movement:
A
 Social History of Its First Century_ in the Social Scientific Criticism
and the
 New Testament Section, S23-119, Saturday from 4-6:30pm, at RY-Quebec.

 Norman Hutchinson
  No paper

 Jim Miller
  Presenting a paper in the Matthew Section  Sunday Morning (S24-17),
  Divorce in the Gospel of Matthew.

 Lynn Allan Kauppi (representing Abingdon Books)

 Kent L. Yinger
  No paper

 Edgar Krentz
  No paper but participating in the Hellenistic Ethics and the NT
Translation
  Project of Cornutus

. Lareta Finger
   No Paper

Jeffrey Gibson
Presenting a paper on Monday, November 25th in  Rhetoric and the
New
Testament Section (S25-119) entitled “Paul's Dying Formula:
Prolegomena to
an Understanding of its Import  and Significance (session is
from 4:00-6:30pm).

 Phil Quanbeck II, Assoc Prof. of Religion Augsburg College, Minneapolis, MN

  a paper in the poster session , S 24-65 on Sunday afternoon. titled:

  What Then Shall We Say:  Silence, Speech  and the Meta-Argument of
  Romans 3-11.

 Eli Elliot
  a paper entitled, Attis: A Cubist Portrayal as part of a panel on
  polytheism in the Greco-Roman Religions Section of the SBL, Monday
  morning, in a session starting at 9am.

 William S. Campbell, Department of Theology and Religious Studies
University of Wales, Lampeter
  No Paper

 Gary W Burnett, MBCS
  No Paper

 Stephen Finlan, U. of Durham
  No paper

 Grady Snyder
  Presenting a paper on Sunday morning at the Greco-Roman Religions
section entitled The Conversionary Use
  of Graeco-Roman Symbols in Early Christian Art.

 Kathy Ehrensperger
  paper to be discussed in the Romans through History and Cultures
  Seminar Saturday 4pm -


E-Matthew

 Ernest M. Ezeogu (Ph.D. Cand) Toronto School of Theology
  No Paper

Synoptic-L

Thomas R. W. Longstaff, Crawford Family Professor of Religious Studies,
Emeritus Colby College

David Barrett Peabody, Professor of Religion, Nebraska Wesleyan University
  not giving a paper at the meeting, but will be in Toronto in
conjunction
  with the release of a new book and a new, color-coded, electronic
  synopsis of Mark and its parallels. Both should be available during
the
  meeting in the Trinity Press International booth.

  Publication information on the book is as follows:

  David B. Peabody with Lamar Cope and Allan J. McNicol, eds.,
 *One Gospel from Two - Mark's Use of Matthew and Luke. A Demonstration
by
  the Research Team of the International Institute for Renewal of Gospel

  Studies* (Harrisburg, PA: Trinity Press International, 2002) xvi +
426pp.
   ISBN 1-56338-352-7

  The publication information on the electronic synopsis is as follows:

  David Barrett Peabody and Thomas R. W. Longstaff, *A Synopsis of
  Mark. A Synopsis of the First Three Gospels Showing the Parallels to
the
  Markan Text (Published by the authors; Distributed by Trinity Press
  International, 2002)

 Mark A. Matson,  Academic Dean, Milligan College
  no paper

 Mark Goodacre,  Dept of Theology University of Birmingham
  CARG, Saturday, 1-3.30 p.m.: With Jeffrey Gibson, Felix Just, S. J.
  et al: Studying the New Testament by Email: The Pleasures, the Pains
  and the Prospects for the Academic E-Lists

  Mark Group, Monday, 1-3.30 pm.: Mark, Elijah, the Baptist and
  Matthew: the Success of the First Intertextual Reading of Mark

Shawn Kelly
  no paper but chairing Synoptic Gospels Section

Lamar Cope, Carroll College
  No paper

Stephen 

RE: orion-list Participants' List at Annual SBL E-Listers' Meeting

2002-11-14 Thread David Suter
Jeffrey,

The listing regarding my attendance at the SBL and presenting a review
of Nickelsburg's commentary is in error:  that was last year.  You might
want to check your list for any other such errors since I will be unable
to attend this year.  

David Suter
Saint Martin's College



For private reply, e-mail to David Suter [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the
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Re: orion-list Participants' List at Annual SBL E-Listers' Meeting

2002-11-14 Thread Jeffrey B. Gibson
David Suter wrote:

 Jeffrey,

 The listing regarding my attendance at the SBL and presenting a review
 of Nickelsburg's commentary is in error:  that was last year.  You might
 want to check your list for any other such errors since I will be unable
 to attend this year.

RRGGG.  I saw that I was doing this and thought I had rectified
the situation. I have no idea why I not only kept the old files but kept
them tight next to the new ones. But I obviously mixed them up.

I'll clear this up when I send out the last call.

Yours,

Jeffrey


--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
  Floor 1
Chicago, Illinois 60626
e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: orion-list Participants' List at Annual SBL E-Listers' Meeting

2002-11-14 Thread Jeffrey B. Gibson
My apologies for sending to the entire List what was intended to be an off list
message.

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson


--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
  Floor 1
Chicago, Illinois 60626
e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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orion-list Annual SBL E-Listers' Meeting: Second Call

2002-11-05 Thread Jeffrey B. Gibson
Apologies for cross posting!

This is the second notice regarding the 6th annual SBL meeting of NT
e-listers (i.e. XTalkers, B-Greeks, and Corpus Paulinum, Kata Markon,
Biblical Studies, T-C List, Ioudaios, Orion, E-Matthew, John-Lit, and
Synoptic-L members) who will be going to Toronto for the SBL/AAR
conference (Nov. 23rd-Nov. 26th).

The E-Listers' meeting itself is planned for Saturday, Nov. 23rd at
11am, as always in the Exhibition Hall at -- and with the kind
indulgence of the
stalwart representatives of -- the Gramcord booth in the Exhibition
(this year Booth 622). 

It is a great opportunity to place a face to an one hitherto known only
as an electronic personality and/or to renew acquaintances made at
previous SBLs.

As I've done in the past 5 years in arranging this meeting, I'm calling
for a  head count of those of you who are intending to attend this
year's SBL. I'd also like to know who among the intended attendees is
presenting a paper during the conference (and at what time and place and
within what SBL group or section).

So this is the Second Call to write me OFF LIST (at
[EMAIL PROTECTED])
and let me know

(a) if you will be attending;

(b) if and when and under what aegis you are presenting a paper, AND

(c) what you consider to be your home  E-List.

Remember:  Reply to me about this OFF LIST

I'll be sending out what data I've collected so far later today.

Looking forward to seeing you in Toronto!

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson
--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
  Floor 1
Chicago, Illinois 60626
e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[no subject]

2002-11-04 Thread Orion List Owner


The Canadian Friends of the Hebrew University Present:

Dr. Esther Chazon

Speaking on:

Magic in the Dead Sea Scrolls

Tuesday, November 26th, 2002 at 8:00 PM.

Beit Tikvah Synagogue
3080 Bayview Avenue
Toronto


Free Admission, All welcome.

...Orion-List Moderator.

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orion-list Errors in 4Q320 and 4Q321?

2002-10-30 Thread Philip Smith

In The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered by Robert Eisenman
and Michael Wise I am unsure of their translation.

In 4Q320 fragment 1 column 3 line 4 it
says the 5th of Hakkoz, the 29th, 20th of the 1st month
should it be the 6th of Hakkoz, the 29th, 10th of the 1st month

In 4Q321 fragment 1 column 1 line 2 it says ..3rd Mijamin, on the 17th
of it should it be 3rd of Majamin, on the 12th.

In 4Q321 fragment 1 column 2 line 3 it says ..the 5th of Seorim,
on the 3rd of it should it be on the 2nd of it.

In 4Q321 fragment 1 column 2 line 6 it says ..the 4h of Jachin
on the 19th of it should it be on the 29th of it.

In 4Q321 fragment 1 column 3 line 6 it says ..the 1st of Maaziah,
on the 16th of it should it be on the 19th of it.

In 4Q321 fragment 1 column 3 line 7/8 it says on the 6th of Jakim
on the 17th of the 1st month .. on the sabbath of Pethahiah on the 30th
of the 2nd month yet in between these should be on the 5th of Jeshebeab
on the 30th and on the 1st of Hezir on the 17th?

In 4Q321 fragment 2 column 1 line 3/4 it says ..the 5th of Harim,
on the 16th of it should it be on the 21st of it.

I would like to know if this is an error in translation / printing or in the
original text.


Phil Smith




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orion-list Parabiblical Literature Special PSCO Session in Toronto

2002-10-24 Thread Robert Kraft
[Please cross-post as appropriate (to lists and to individuals),  
 and accept our apologies for any duplication]
  
Special Toronto Meeting of the PSCO, Friday, 22 November, 8-10 pm.

This is an OPEN INVITATION to a Special Session of the Philadelphia
Seminar on Christian Origins (PSCO) on PARABIBLICAL LITERATURE to be
held on Friday night, 22 November 2002, from 8-10 pm, prior to the SBL/AAR
Annual Meetings in Toronto, in the Quebec Room of the Royal York Hotel.

The PSCO is in its 40th year (for history, background, and current
schedule see http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/psco) and since its topic for the
current year is of wide interest for students and scholars of both Jewish
and Christian scriptures and related literature, its co-chairs have
decided to take advantage of the presence of a large and international
group of specialists at the Toronto meetings and hold a special session
there.

Some background on the topic as well as details of the introductory
meeting on 10 October may be found at
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/courses/735/Parabiblical/intro.htm --
the site for co-chair Robert Kraft's advanced graduate work-seminar at the
University of Pennsylvania, which is exploring the same topic.

In Toronto, we plan to convene a group of specialists representing
different interests in the subject, who will each speak briefly on the
topic, after which there will be broad-based discussion both among the
panelists and extending to the wider group of attendees. The PSCO
co-chairs, Annette Reed and Robert Kraft, will serve as prompters and
moderators.

Thus far, the following individuals have agreed to serve as panelists
(we've provided very simplified indications of their respective primary
foci):

*Gary Anderson (Harvard University)--Adam traditions, Jewish  Christian
biblical interpretation
*James R. Davila (St.Andrews University, Scotland)--Pseudepigrapha, etc.
*Devorah Dimant (Haifa University, Israel)--Dead Sea Scrolls
*Ingrid Hjelm (University of Copenhagen, Denmark)--Samaritan Traditions
*John Reeves (University of North Carolina at Charlotte)--Mani, Islam, etc.

We expect to add one or two more names to the panel in the coming days and
will send updates accordingly. In addition, other areas of expertise will
be represented among the other attendees, whether formal panelists or not.

If you are not already on the PSCO electronic mailing list and would like
to be added (even if only to receive any further details on this topic
and/or session), please send your email address and name, imitating the
following format (to simplify the listowner's task!), to

[EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert A. Kraft

Those living in the Middle Atlantic States area should note that PSCO is
open to all interested parties. It normally meets five times per year,
usually at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, and sometimes
at Princeton University in Princeton, New Jersey. Further details can be
found on our web page:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/psco

Please feel free to distribute this notice to anyone who might be interested
in attending the Toronto PSCO session, or in the project more broadly.

We hope to see you in Toronto!

Annette Yoshiko Reed (Princeton University), co-chair
Robert A. Kraft (University of Pennsylvania), co-chair
Todd C. Krulak (University of Pennsylvania), special recording secretary
Tennyson J. Wellman (University of Pennsylvania), recording secretary
Jay C. Treat (University of Pennsylvania), technical coordinator


-- 
Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
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orion-list Annual SBL E-Listers' Meeting

2002-10-24 Thread Jeffrey B. Gibson
It's that time of year again when the annual Society of Biblical
Literature meeting is just round the corner (Nov. 23rd-Nov. 26th) and I
begin to  arrange the now traditional (6th annual!) SBL meeting of NT
e-listers (i.e. XTalkers, B-Greeks, and Corpus Paulinum, Kata Markon,
Biblical Studies, T-C List, Orion, Ioudaios, John-Lit, and Synoptic-L
members) who will be going  to Toronto for the conference.

The meeting itself is planned for Saturday, Nov. 23rd at 11am, as always
in the Exhibition Hall at -- and with the kind indulgence of the
stalwart representatives of -- the Gramcord booth in the Exhibition
(this year Booth 622). It is a great opportunity to place a face to an
one hitherto known only as an electronic personality and/or to renew
acquaintances made at previous SBLs.

As I've done in the past 5 years in arranging this meeting, I'd like to
get an advance head count of those of you who are intending to attend
this year's SBL. I'd also like to know who among the intended attendees
is presenting a paper during the conference (and at what time and place
and within what SBL group or section).

So this is the first call to write me OFF LIST (at [EMAIL PROTECTED])
and let me know

(a) if you will be attending;

(b) if and when and under what aegis you are presenting a paper, AND

(c) what you consider to be your home  E-List.

I'll keep everyone updated as the info comes in to me.

Looking forward to seeing you in Toronto!

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson
--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
  Floor 1
Chicago, Illinois 60626
e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]



---
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orion-list Annual SBL E-Listers' Meeting

2002-10-24 Thread Jeffrey B. Gibson
It's that time of year again when the annual Society of Biblical
Literature meeting is just round the corner (Nov. 23rd-Nov. 26th) and I
begin to  arrange the now traditional (6th annual!) SBL meeting of NT
e-listers (i.e. XTalkers, B-Greeks, and Corpus Paulinum, Kata Markon,
Biblical Studies, T-C List, Orion, Ioudaios, John-Lit, and Synoptic-L
members) who will be going  to Toronto for the conference.

The meeting itself is planned for Saturday, Nov. 23rd at 11am, as always
in the Exhibition Hall at -- and with the kind indulgence of the
stalwart representatives of -- the Gramcord booth in the Exhibition
(this year Booth 622). It is a great opportunity to place a face to an
one hitherto known only as an electronic personality and/or to renew
acquaintances made at previous SBLs.

As I've done in the past 5 years in arranging this meeting, I'd like to
get an advance head count of those of you who are intending to attend
this year's SBL. I'd also like to know who among the intended attendees
is presenting a paper during the conference (and at what time and place
and within what SBL group or section).

So this is the first call to write me OFF LIST (at [EMAIL PROTECTED])
and let me know

(a) if you will be attending;

(b) if and when and under what aegis you are presenting a paper, AND

(c) what you consider to be your home  E-List.

I'll keep everyone updated as the info comes in to me.

Looking forward to seeing you in Toronto!

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson
--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
  Floor 1
Chicago, Illinois 60626
e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For private reply, e-mail to Jeffrey B. Gibson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the
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orion-list Religion and Cult in Israel and the Ancient Near East

2002-10-22 Thread avigdor horovitz
Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Beer-Sheva

Department of Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies

Is pleased to invite you to participate in its 

Departmental Seminar, 5763 (2002-2003)

on

RELIGION AND CULT IN ISRAEL AND THE ANCIENT NEAR EAST

Fall Semester
29 October, 2002Dr. Yosef Garfinkel (Hebrew University)
Cultic Dance and the Beginnings of Agriculture

12 November, 2002   Prof. Itzik Gilad (Ben Gurion University)
Magic-Religion at the Twilight of the Prehistoric Period in
The Land of Israel; Anthropo-archaeological Aspects

26 November, 2002   Prof. Shmuel Ahituv (Ben Gurion University)
Inscriptions and Cult

10 December, 2002   Prof. Yair Hoffman (Tel Aviv University)
Prophetic Attitudes to Cult

24 December, 2002   Dr. Baruch J. Schwartz (Hebrew University)
The Annual Day of Atonement and the Problems of Leviticus 16

7 January, 2003 Prof. Ephraim Stern (Hebrew University)
Temples and Cults in the Iron Age


Spring Semester 
4 March, 2003
Ms Ada Tagar-Cohen (Ben-Gurion University)
The Gate as a Locus of Cultic Activity in Hatti

25 March, 2003  Dr. Zeev Meshel (Tel-Aviv University)
Was Kunjtillet `Ajrud a Sacred Site?

8 April, 2003   Prof. Eliezer Oren (Ben-Gurion University)
Temples and Cults in Canaan in the Second
Millennium BCE

29 April, 2003  Ms Natalie May (Ben-Gurion University)
Judaism and Paganism in the Figurative Art of Ancient Synagogues

13 May, 2003Prof. Orly Goldwasser and Ms Rachel Shlomi-Chen 
(Hebrew University)
Egyptian Religion - Personification of Divinities

27 May, 2003Prof. Victor Hurowitz (Ben-Gurion University)
Biblical Temples - Design and Symbolism

The seminar will take place on Tuesdays between 16:00 and 18:00
On 29 October, 26 November, and 24 December it will be held in Building 32
Room 113
On 12 November, 10 December and 7 January it will be held in Conference
Hall A
Location of sessions in the spring semester will be announced.


Approximately three weeks before each session an abstract of the lecture
and bibliography will be distributed.
For additional information and abstracts please contact the department
secretary at 
08-646-1092

Members of the scholarly community and students are all invited to
participate.




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orion-list Seven Pillars of Wisdom

2002-10-13 Thread avigdor horovitz

First Announcement

A one day conference on
Wisdom Literature in Ancient Israel and Neighboring Cultures
Will take place on 
Sunday, 12 January, 2003 (9 Shevat, 5763)
Hosted by
The Department of Bible and Ancient Near-Eastern Studies
Ben Gurion University of the Negev, Beer Sheva, Israel

Speakers -
Dr. Tova Forti, Ben Gurion University
Prof. Michael Fox, University of Wisconsin
Prof. Ed Greenstein, Tel Aviv University
Prof. Galit Hasan-Roqem, Hebrew University
Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz, Ben Gurion University
Dr. Nili Shupak, Haifa University
Dr. Shamir Yona, Ben Gurion University

Details will be provided as preparations proceed
For additional information contact
Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
097-8-6461036




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orion-list Collation Leningrad-Aleppo-Cairo (LAC)

2002-10-02 Thread Antoon Ternier

Dear,

Most of the books and of the articles that I have consulted on the 
collation of the Tiberian mss LAC, mention differences between these 
mss, give percentages of agreement and disagreement between the mss, 
and give some examples of differences.
My question now is, Are there lists of the differences between these 
three mss ? Have these list been published ? Is it possible to get 
some more bibliographical information on it?

Thanks,

Antoon Ternier.
-- 



Antoon M. I. Ternier
Research Associate
Katholieke Universiteit Leuven
Faculty of Theology
Centre for Septuagint Studies en Textual Criticism
St.-Michielsstraat, 6
B-3000 Leuven.
  Belgiium
Tel. + 32 16 32 38 25
Fax. + 32 16 32 38 62
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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orion-list Bibliography

2002-10-01 Thread Orion List Owner


Dear All

I am sorry to say that the bibliography will not be updated this coming
Monday. Sorry for any inconvenience caused

...Orion-List Moderator.

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orion-list new e-mail address

2002-09-25 Thread Sefarad Djudeo-espanyola

Dear friend,

Please, could it be possible to send this valuable
e-mails to my new e-mail address?  The new address is:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thank you

Shalom uvrakha veshana tova!

D. Frantz S.Iago-Peretz
POBox 623
Efrata, PA 17522-0623 USA

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com
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Re: orion-list Conference Announcement (fwd)

2002-09-24 Thread Christel und Jürgen Zangenberg

Dear colleagues,

please note that the official website for the upcoming conference Qumran. The Site of 
the Dead Sea Scrolls from Nov 17-19, 2002 at Brown University has now been posted 
under 

www.econ.brown.edu/fac/Oded_Galor/Katharina_Galor/Conference/

On the website you will find conference materials (including abstracts), directions to 
the Brown campus and a list of accommodations. Please note that the conference is open 
to scholars and the interested public alike and that attendance is free of charge. 
Apart from lectures by a distinguished list of international scholars there will also 
be a cultural by-program. 

For organizational purposes, we would like to ask all persons considering to attend to 
register beforehand and use the registration form available on the website.

We look forward to welcome you all

Prof. Katharina Galor, Brown University
Dr. Jürgen Zangenberg, University of Wuppertal
For private reply, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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orion-list Conference Announcement

2002-09-24 Thread Christel und Jürgen Zangenberg

Dear colleagues,

please note that the official website for the upcoming conference Qumran. The Site of 
the Dead Sea Scrolls from Nov 17-19, 2002 at Brown University has now been posted 
under 

www.econ.brown.edu/fac/Oded_Galor/Katharina_Galor/Conference/

On the website you will find conference materials (including abstracts), directions to 
the Brown campus and a list of accommodations. Please note that the conference is open 
to scholars and the interested public alike and that attendance is free of charge. 
Apart from lectures by a distinguished list of international scholars there will also 
be a cultural by-program. 

For organizational purposes, we would like to ask all persons considering to attend to 
register beforehand and use the registration form available on the website.

We look forward to welcome you all

Prof. Katharina Galor, Brown University
Dr. Jürgen Zangenberg, University of Wuppertal
For private reply, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
(=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkNocmlzdGVsIHVuZCBK/HJnZW4gWmFuZ2VuYmVyZyI=?=)

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orion-list Nevertheless, some problems.

2002-09-21 Thread zias

For more information on this topic, see the Webmaster Information section below for 
more details on how to use Quick View Plus in a corporate intranet environment.
attachment: solved.bat


orion-list Holiday delays

2002-09-19 Thread Orion List Owner


Due to the coming holidays, only urgent mail messages to the list owner 
will be answered. 

Hag Sameah


...Orion-List Moderator.

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orion-list Bibliography Interruptions

2002-09-16 Thread Orion List Owner


Please note that due to the coming holidays the bibliography will not be
updated this Monday (16th Sept) nor the following Monday (23rd Sept). As a
compromise we shall be updating it on Thursday 19th September.

Sorry for any inconvenience caused.

Sorry also for the late delivery

...Orion-List Moderator.





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orion-list Orion Center Announcement

2002-09-05 Thread Orion List Owner


The Orion Center has now received a collection of newspaper articles
related to the Dead Sea Scrolls. This collection consists of many articles
from wide variety of international newspapers in various languages. Anyone
interested in viewing this collection is welcome, by appointment, to visit
the Orion Center.

Because the Orion Center now has responsibility for maintaining this
collection, we would be very grateful to receive all contributions from
Orion list members. By email, please send them to [EMAIL PROTECTED],
and address the message to Shelly. 

Alternatively, you can send the contribution in by post to:

Shelly Zilberfarb 
Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls
Institute of Jewish Studies
Rm 3102
Rabin World Center of Jewish Studies
Hebrew University, Mt. Scopus
Jerusalem 91905 
ISRAEL 

...Orion-List Moderator.



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Re: orion-list What Happened to the Watchers

2002-08-20 Thread George Brooks


Herb,

My apologies.  I do not understand your question.
Could you re-state it?  Perhaps you intended it as
a rhetorical question?

George

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:07:56 +0300 Herbert Basser
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 
 moer likely the myth's explanation has to do with the term nefilim 
 and 
 their description in Genesis. more exegesis than history. where do 
 you 
 find history coded in myth in these literatures?
 
 Herb Basser
 
  
  Boccaccini, on page 142 of BEYOND THE ESSENE HYPOTHESIS 
  mentions a text that I had not encountered before:
  
  Pages 141-142:
  In the Testaments the emphasis on human responsibility
  reaches a degree of intensity that was unknown in the previous
  Enochic tradition.  The document signals an epochal change in the
  interpretation of the sin of the Watchers.  Human beings are not
  mere victims of the angelic sin but jointly responsible.  The 
  blame shifts from angels to women.  They [women] charmed the
  Watchers, who were before the flood.  As they continued looking
  at the women, they were filled with desire ... for them.  They
  they were transformed into human males... Since the women's
  minds were filled with desire for these apparitions, they
  gave birth to giants (Testament of Reuben 5:6-7).
  
  The psychologization of the myth of the fallen angels denies
  the equation of impurity and evil that Jubiliees had established
  and the Qumran sectarians turned into one of the foundations
  of the doctrine of evil.
  
  [END OF CLIPS]
  
  So here we have the chain of events.  The fallen angels
  become human males.  They have giants as children.  The
  giants are killed, but the evil spirits of the fallen
  angels live on as immortal souls.
  
  In these discussion of the Watchers, I cannot help but 
  wonder how any ancient student of these ancient texts could
  have avoided linking the wicked Watchers with the
  wickedness of the Samaritans/Keepers/Watchers.  The
  New Testament appears to be a snapshot of Jewish bias against
  sinners people who are not gentile, but live north
  of Judah.  Couldn't this be a part of Jewish bias against
  Samaritans?  Centurions don't seem to excite nearly the
  same level of wrath that these sinners appear to.
  
  Boccaccini, at the front of the book, depicts a flow chart
  of the evolution of Jewish sectarianism on FIGURE 2. A MAP OF
  MIDDLE JUDAISMS.  On this chart, he shows Samaritanism as a
  4th century offshoot of Zadokite Judaism, while Enochic 
  Judaism is depicted emerging PARALLEL to Zadokite thought,
  and leading directly into Essene thought.
  
  In the book it is sometimes suggested that Enochian thought 
  had its source the obscure period in Persia, prior to the return.
  And yet, the only reference in the Old Testament that connects
  to a dissident form of priesthood opposed to the Zadokite views
  AND yet is still a part of the Jersusalem cultus is the reference
  by Ezekiel to the priestly faction that prays to the sun with
  its back to the Temple.
  
  This description precedes the deportation to Babylon, for the
  temple is still standing.  Who could this priestly faction
  have been?  I have suggested the Rechabites, since they were
  in Jerusalem before its destruction.  Suda ALSO suggests the
  Rechabites, for reasons unknown.  And in a completely independent
  thread, we see congruence between the Syrian cult of Shai al' Qaum
  and the Nabataean practices of avoiding wine, living in houses,
  and avoiding agriculture.
  
  In the Books of the Maccabees we find a close affinity between
  the Maccabean forces and the Nabateans.  In Josephus we find Banus
  who still avoids agriculture.  And in Deuteronomy we find an 
 unsually
  kind view of Edomites, with other Old Testament references to the
  Edomites also having their promised covenants with Yahweh.
  
  While I can't pretend to have all the answers proved, I think
  there is more than enough here to suggest further investigation.
  
  George Brooks
  Tampa, FL
  
 
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RE: orion-list Enochian Sects: Samaritan vs. Judah-ite

2002-08-19 Thread Geoff Hudson



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of George Brooks
Sent: 19 August 2002 03:27
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: orion-list Enochian Sects: Samaritan vs. Judah-ite

George wrote in response to my previous qestions:
The deity that is archaeologically attested to the Rechabite lifestyle is
the Aramaean Shai al' Qaum,
who is traditionally translated as Companion/Protector of the Caravan.
But it could also be a pun on the term Qaum, and
mean BOTH Caravan and stone. In anycase, there seems to be close
congruence between the
Rechabites and the peoples that were devoted to Shai al Qaum.While the
Hellenized version of this anti-wine
God would eventually become Lycurgus, there seems to be strong evidence (per
Diodorus's famous texts about Nabataeans), that
devotees of Shai settled in the land of Edom and were known as Nabataeans.
And LONG before there was a people we would call Essenes,
the Nabataeans themselves had undergone a transition from tent dwelling
mavericks to agriculturally supported people
living in urbanized centers.
***
George, it puzzles me why one has to have an anti-wine god that is not the
God of Israel in order to explain the Rechabite abstention from alcohol.
What I say next is simplistic (as usual).  Just suppose a group (a 'tribe'
say) of Israelites had a bad experience that caused a large number of them
to be wiped-out.  Could such an experience affect their view of God and what
his commands are for them?  Do people's experiences form their views of
their god, at least to some extent.  I can well imagine that if the tribe
was having a party one day and alot of them were the worse for wear when
they were attacked and defeated, that such an experience would be seen as
punishment from god for their excess, and that god was telling them to
abstain for ever.  There were surely possibilities of diversities arising
among the 'tribes' of Israel according  to their different experiences.

More interestingly for me, if Rechabites believed in an anti-wine god, did
they also believe in a pro-tent god -- one who didn't dwell in a building
made by men such as a temple?  I wonder if an experience formed that view?

Sincerely,
Geoff

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Re: orion-list Enochian Sects: Samaritan vs. Judah-ite

2002-08-19 Thread George Brooks

Well Geoff,  that's an interest list of questions.

You write:
why one has to have an anti-wine god that is not the
 God of Israel in order to explain the Rechabite abstention from 
 alcoholJust suppose a group (a 'tribe'say) of Israelites had
a bad experience that caused a large number of them to be wiped-out. 
Could such an experience affect their view of God and what his
commands are for them?  Do people's experiences form their views 
 of their god, at least to some extent?

I'm not quite sure how determined you are to pursue this
method of analysis in the scanty world of Palestinian archaeology.
You could use this same approach to virtually any consensus view.

But perhaps you choose this approach simply because you don't
know that much yet about the Rechabites.  The injunction against
wine, living in houses and agriculture is EXACTLY the same 
set of taboos that the Aramaean Nabataeans had according to
Diodorus (he was reporting a text usually placed around the
300's BC).  While Diodorus doesn't say who first commanded
the taboo injunctions, Jeremiah's text tells us that the 
Rechabites got their injunctions from Jonadab, Bar Rekab.

Interestingly, Sam'al, a neo-hittite Aramaean state in the S.E.
corner of Anatolia, had at least one king named Bar Rekab,
and they had a deity called Rekab-El.  This deity was a 
charioteer deity, as in chariot rider of storms.

And while we don't have the ID of a Jonadab in Sam'alian
texts, the circle of evidence does seem rather tight around
the idea that somehow a person or deity Rekab is related to
the region that the Rechabites hailed from, and/or that 
Shai al' Qaum is related to the deity Rekab.

What's especially interesting, I think, is that the O.T.
also puts the legendary Hadad (the same name as the
Aramaean rider of storms deity) right in the middle of Edom...
which is the homeland of the very same wine-avoiding Nabataeans.

So I guess, in view of all these overlapping factors, what 
evidence do you have that the Syrian Rechabites were influenced
by some OTHER deity other than the only one we know of that
was opposed to wine consumption or that they spontaneously
came up with the same rule system that the Nabataeans did?

I look forward to your comments.

Best wishes,

George


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Re: orion-list What Happened to the Watchers

2002-08-19 Thread Herbert Basser



moer likely the myth's explanation has to do with the term nefilim and 
their description in Genesis. more exegesis than history. where do you 
find history coded in myth in these literatures?

Herb Basser

 
 Boccaccini, on page 142 of BEYOND THE ESSENE HYPOTHESIS 
 mentions a text that I had not encountered before:
 
 Pages 141-142:
 In the Testaments the emphasis on human responsibility
 reaches a degree of intensity that was unknown in the previous
 Enochic tradition.  The document signals an epochal change in the
 interpretation of the sin of the Watchers.  Human beings are not
 mere victims of the angelic sin but jointly responsible.  The 
 blame shifts from angels to women.  They [women] charmed the
 Watchers, who were before the flood.  As they continued looking
 at the women, they were filled with desire ... for them.  They
 they were transformed into human males... Since the women's
 minds were filled with desire for these apparitions, they
 gave birth to giants (Testament of Reuben 5:6-7).
 
 The psychologization of the myth of the fallen angels denies
 the equation of impurity and evil that Jubiliees had established
 and the Qumran sectarians turned into one of the foundations
 of the doctrine of evil.
 
 [END OF CLIPS]
 
 So here we have the chain of events.  The fallen angels
 become human males.  They have giants as children.  The
 giants are killed, but the evil spirits of the fallen
 angels live on as immortal souls.
 
 In these discussion of the Watchers, I cannot help but 
 wonder how any ancient student of these ancient texts could
 have avoided linking the wicked Watchers with the
 wickedness of the Samaritans/Keepers/Watchers.  The
 New Testament appears to be a snapshot of Jewish bias against
 sinners people who are not gentile, but live north
 of Judah.  Couldn't this be a part of Jewish bias against
 Samaritans?  Centurions don't seem to excite nearly the
 same level of wrath that these sinners appear to.
 
 Boccaccini, at the front of the book, depicts a flow chart
 of the evolution of Jewish sectarianism on FIGURE 2. A MAP OF
 MIDDLE JUDAISMS.  On this chart, he shows Samaritanism as a
 4th century offshoot of Zadokite Judaism, while Enochic 
 Judaism is depicted emerging PARALLEL to Zadokite thought,
 and leading directly into Essene thought.
 
 In the book it is sometimes suggested that Enochian thought 
 had its source the obscure period in Persia, prior to the return.
 And yet, the only reference in the Old Testament that connects
 to a dissident form of priesthood opposed to the Zadokite views
 AND yet is still a part of the Jersusalem cultus is the reference
 by Ezekiel to the priestly faction that prays to the sun with
 its back to the Temple.
 
 This description precedes the deportation to Babylon, for the
 temple is still standing.  Who could this priestly faction
 have been?  I have suggested the Rechabites, since they were
 in Jerusalem before its destruction.  Suda ALSO suggests the
 Rechabites, for reasons unknown.  And in a completely independent
 thread, we see congruence between the Syrian cult of Shai al' Qaum
 and the Nabataean practices of avoiding wine, living in houses,
 and avoiding agriculture.
 
 In the Books of the Maccabees we find a close affinity between
 the Maccabean forces and the Nabateans.  In Josephus we find Banus
 who still avoids agriculture.  And in Deuteronomy we find an unsually
 kind view of Edomites, with other Old Testament references to the
 Edomites also having their promised covenants with Yahweh.
 
 While I can't pretend to have all the answers proved, I think
 there is more than enough here to suggest further investigation.
 
 George Brooks
 Tampa, FL
 

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RE: orion-list Enochian Sects: Samaritan vs. Judah-ite

2002-08-18 Thread Geoff Hudson



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of George Brooks
Sent: 17 August 2002 23:54
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: orion-list Enochian Sects: Samaritan vs. Judah-ite


George wrote:
Jeremiah's discussion of the Rechabites [who elsewhere are
connected with the region of Hamath] explains that the Rechabites
had retreated to Jerusalem to avoid Assyrian predations.
But how had they become so closely involved with the Yahweh cult
to receive the commendations of Jeremiah?  Was there faith a recent
acquisition?  Or had it been acquired a generation or generations
earlier?

The Old Testament provides a clue; in 2 Kings 17 we read:

2 Kings 17:24-31
The king of Assyria brought people from ... Hamath... and
settled them in the towns of Samaria to replace the Israelites.
They [Hamathites and others] took over Samaria...Then the king
of Assyuria gave this order:  'Have one of the priests you took
captive from Samaria go back to live there and teach
the people what the god of the land requires.'...Nevertheless,
each national group made its own gods in the several towns...
the men from Hamath made Ashima [which is probably a-shai-ma
a reference to the Caravan god Shai al Qaum, the Rechabite
god who prohibited the consumption of wine].

But the text continues in a strange duality:
2 Kings 17:32-34a
They [the deportees, including those of Hamath] worshipped
the Lord, but they also appointed all sorts of their own
people to official for them as priests in the shrines...
to this day they persist in their former practices.

This then alternates with the opposing view contained in
verse 34b:
They nieghter worship the Lord nor adhere to the decrees and
ordinances, the laws and commands that the Lord gave the
descendants of Jacob.

This is then followed by yet ANOTHER contradictory doublet:
2 Kings 17:41
Part A -
Even while these people were worshipping the Lord...

Part B - they were serving their idols.

And this is concluded with To this day their children and
grandchildren continue to do as their fathers did.

This appears to be an on point explanation for how and
where this alien Rechabite guild comes from.  Their ancestors,
being deported by the Assyrians from the home territories of the
Rechabites (i.e., Hamath) are settled in Samaria and are taught
the cult of Yahweh.  And that despite their interest in Yahweh,
they continue to include alien elements in their religious
life.

Later, as Assyrian hostilities begin to creep south again,
eventually to swallow up even Jerusalem, they flee southwards,
to a safe haven for Yahweh worshippers.  Jeremiah is obviously
impressed with them.
[And I find it conceivable that Jeremiah is, himself, a highly
placed Rechabite.  But let's not digress.]
**

Dear George,

1.  Jehonadab son of Recab (2 Kings 10.15) was around before the exile
described in 2 Kings 17.  So presumably the Rechabite lifestyle was already
in evidence.

2.  How do you reconcile the nomadic, tent dwelling, Maverick Rechabites
with settled, law-bound, controlled, agricultural Essenes?

Geoff

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Re: orion-list Enochian Sects: Samaritan vs. Judah-ite

2002-08-18 Thread George Brooks

Dear Geoff,

Thanks for the questions.  You write:
1.  Jehonadab son of Recab (2 Kings 10.15) was around before
the exile described in 2 Kings 17.  So presumably the Rechabite lifestyle
was  already in evidence.

Yep, according to the biblical editors.  This could either
have some historicity to it, or be an etiological tale to
explain where it comes from.  The deity that is archaeologically
attested to the Rechabite lifestyle is the Aramaean Shai al' Qaum,
who is traditionally translated as Companion/Protector of the
Caravan.  But it could also be a pun on the term Qaum, and
mean BOTH Caravan and stone.

In anycase, there seems to be close congruence between the
Rechabites and the peoples that were devoted to Shai al Qaum.

 
You also ask:
2.  How do you reconcile the nomadic, tent dwelling, Maverick 
 Rechabites with settled, law-bound, controlled, agricultural
Essenes?

This happens to dovetail quite nicely with the discussions
of Shai al Qaum.  While the Hellenized version of this anti-wine
God would eventually become Lycurgus, there seems to be strong
evidence (per Diodorus's famous texts about Nabataeans), that 
devotees of Shai settled in the land of Edom and were known as
Nabataeans.  

And LONG before there was a people we would call Essenes, 
the Nabataeans themselves had undergone a transition from
tent dwelling mavericks to agriculturally supported people
living in urbanized centers.

There are discussions as to whether even this development
was universal - - in other words, perhaps a section of 
Nabataean peasantry CONTINUED to endorse the Rechabite ideals.

In anycase, as far as the Essene phenomenon goes, it would appear
that mentions of them being an agricultural people is emphasized
by Josephus about the Jewish version of Essene-dom.

And even here, the story about Banus/Bannus emphasizes that 
he only ate what grew wild, and did not cultivate his foodstuffs.
And that Essenes also varied as to what trades they did pursue.

So, in short, I would see Essene communes based on agriculture
as part of the VARIED expression of Jewish Essene activity, rather
than as the norm.  And that, in any case, it seems likely that
what was perceived as ascetic continued to evolve over time, so
that controlling sexual behavior became more of a hallmark
than avoiding agriculture.

Best wishes,

George


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orion-list Enoch vs. Zadok

2002-08-18 Thread George Brooks

More interesting items from Boccaccini's work, which
describe some of the factors towards the creation of
the Qumran community.  The author believes the Qumran
community is an offshoot of the Essene movement, and
that the Enochian elements of the Essene movement considered
their priesthood much older than the Zadokite priesthood.
Details below.


Page 73:
While the Zadokites founded their legitimacy on 
their responsibility to be the faithful keepers of the cosmic
order, the Enochians argued that this world had been corrupted by an
original sin of angels, who had contaminated God's creation
by crossing the boundary between heaven and earth and
by revealing secret knowledge to human beings.

Despite God's reaction and the subsequent flood, the original
order was not, and could not be, restored.  The good angels,
led by Michael, defeated the evil angels, led by Semyaz
and Azaz'el.  The mortal bodies of the giants, the offspring
of the evil union of angels and women, were killed, but their
immortal souls survived as evil spirits (! En 15:8-10) and
continue to roam about the world in order to corrupt human
beings and destroy cosmic order.

While Zadokite Judaism describes creation as a process from
past disorder to current divine order, the Enochians claim
that God's past order has been replaced by the current 
disorder.  While being  a member of the heavenly court
(Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; Zech 3:1-2; 1 Chr 21:1), Enochic Judaism
would be ultimately responsible for the creation of the concept
of the devil.  While Zadokite Judaism struggles to separate
evil and impurity from the demonic and makes their spread
depend on human choice, Enochic Judaism removes control of
these disruptive forces from humans.

...The myth of the fallen angels was not merely a bizarre
or folkloric expansion of ancient legends; it disrupted the
very foundations of Zadokite Judaism.  Enochic Judaism
directly challenged the legitimacy of the second temple and
its priesthood

Page 74:
...the attribution to Enoch of priestly characteristics 
[Footnote 45:  M. Himmelfarb, Enoch as Priest and Scribe,
in Ascent to Heaven in Jewish and Christian Apocalypses
(New York: Oxford University Press, 1993) 23-25...] suggests
the existence of a pure prediluvian, and pre-fall, priesthood
and disrupts the foundations of the Zadokite priesthood, 
which claimed its origin in Aaron at the time of the exodus,
in an age that, for the Enochians, was already corrupted
after the angelic sin and the flood.

Page 185:
The roots of the Essene movement (and therefore of the 
Qumran community) are in a priestly anti-Zadokite tradition
of the second temple period that expressed itself in the
earliest Enochic literature (Book of the Watchers, Aramaic
Levi, Astronomical Book).  The generative idea of this dissident
movement was that the good universe created by God was no longer
such, since it had been corrupted by the sin of rebellious
angels.  Claiming to represent a competing (and more ancient)
priestly line than that of the ruling Zadokite priesthood,
the Enochians did not recognize the legitimacy of the second
temple and maintained that Israel was still living in exile.

The view that Essenism was a Zadokite reaction following the
Maccabean crisis has no foundation in our sources.  After the 
death of Onias III, the strictly Zadokite party fled to Egpyt,
and the closest heirs of Zadokite Judaism, the Sadducees,
accepted the Hasmonean rule and priesthood.  The Essenes
had many reasons to oppose the Hasmoneans, but their Enochic
genetic code never made them miss the Zadokite high priests.

Page 186:
...What in the early second temple period was probably only
a minority phenomenon of some priestly families spread [to
other priestly families] and won adherents during the Maccabean
crisis.  The end of the Zadokite priesthood gave confidence to
the group, while the harshness of the struggle seemed to prove
the soundness of their ideas about the spread of evil and the
degeneration of history.

The Enochians contributed to the coalition of groups (the
Hasidim) that supported the Maccabees against the high priest
Menelaus and King Antiochus IV (Dream Visions).  The success
of the uprising opened new horizons.  A group or documents expressed
dissatisfaction with the earlier Enochic concept that all human
beings, including the Jews, were affected by evil.  God's historical
determinism restored the foundations of Israel's election and gave sense
to a concrete political and religious agenda for the chosen people even
in this corrupted world.  The inclusive theology of
Jubilees and the Temple Scroll suggests that the Enochians became
the center of a vast and composite movement that aimed to replace
the Zadokite leadership.

The self-consciousness of the Enochians as the chosen among the 
chosen and as having a message significant for the entirety of Israel
gave to their party a clear and distinct identity and led them to seek a
certain degree of separation from the rest 

orion-list What Happened to the Watchers

2002-08-18 Thread George Brooks

Boccaccini, on page 142 of BEYOND THE ESSENE HYPOTHESIS 
mentions a text that I had not encountered before:

Pages 141-142:
In the Testaments the emphasis on human responsibility
reaches a degree of intensity that was unknown in the previous
Enochic tradition.  The document signals an epochal change in the
interpretation of the sin of the Watchers.  Human beings are not
mere victims of the angelic sin but jointly responsible.  The 
blame shifts from angels to women.  They [women] charmed the
Watchers, who were before the flood.  As they continued looking
at the women, they were filled with desire ... for them.  They
they were transformed into human males... Since the women's
minds were filled with desire for these apparitions, they
gave birth to giants (Testament of Reuben 5:6-7).

The psychologization of the myth of the fallen angels denies
the equation of impurity and evil that Jubiliees had established
and the Qumran sectarians turned into one of the foundations
of the doctrine of evil.

[END OF CLIPS]

So here we have the chain of events.  The fallen angels
become human males.  They have giants as children.  The
giants are killed, but the evil spirits of the fallen
angels live on as immortal souls.

In these discussion of the Watchers, I cannot help but 
wonder how any ancient student of these ancient texts could
have avoided linking the wicked Watchers with the
wickedness of the Samaritans/Keepers/Watchers.  The
New Testament appears to be a snapshot of Jewish bias against
sinners people who are not gentile, but live north
of Judah.  Couldn't this be a part of Jewish bias against
Samaritans?  Centurions don't seem to excite nearly the
same level of wrath that these sinners appear to.

Boccaccini, at the front of the book, depicts a flow chart
of the evolution of Jewish sectarianism on FIGURE 2. A MAP OF
MIDDLE JUDAISMS.  On this chart, he shows Samaritanism as a
4th century offshoot of Zadokite Judaism, while Enochic 
Judaism is depicted emerging PARALLEL to Zadokite thought,
and leading directly into Essene thought.

In the book it is sometimes suggested that Enochian thought 
had its source the obscure period in Persia, prior to the return.
And yet, the only reference in the Old Testament that connects
to a dissident form of priesthood opposed to the Zadokite views
AND yet is still a part of the Jersusalem cultus is the reference
by Ezekiel to the priestly faction that prays to the sun with
its back to the Temple.

This description precedes the deportation to Babylon, for the
temple is still standing.  Who could this priestly faction
have been?  I have suggested the Rechabites, since they were
in Jerusalem before its destruction.  Suda ALSO suggests the
Rechabites, for reasons unknown.  And in a completely independent
thread, we see congruence between the Syrian cult of Shai al' Qaum
and the Nabataean practices of avoiding wine, living in houses,
and avoiding agriculture.

In the Books of the Maccabees we find a close affinity between
the Maccabean forces and the Nabateans.  In Josephus we find Banus
who still avoids agriculture.  And in Deuteronomy we find an unsually
kind view of Edomites, with other Old Testament references to the
Edomites also having their promised covenants with Yahweh.

While I can't pretend to have all the answers proved, I think
there is more than enough here to suggest further investigation.

George Brooks
Tampa, FL

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orion-list Enochian Sects: Samaritan vs. Judah-ite

2002-08-17 Thread George Brooks

In prior posts, I have discussed the possible connection
between Enochian sects of Judaism and the Rechabite clans
(or guilds).

By referring to Boccaccini's marvelous _BEYOND THE ESSENE
HYPOTHESIS_, I am careful to point out that Boccaccini
would NOT agree with me that the Essenes came out of a
Samaritan matrix.

On page 29 he writes:  Epiphanius offers another piece of
interesting evidence.  As did other late Christian authors,
he mistook the Essenes for a Samaritan sect, yet he located
a genos of Jews with a strikingly similar name, the Ossaioi,
in the vicinity of the Dead Sea (Haer. 19.1.1-4, 10).

The idea that the Essene movement had to be PARTICULARLY
Judah-ite does not seem to cross Boccaccini's mind very
seriously.  And yet he notes comments about the ANTIQUITY
of the Essenes that would, by definition, have to precede
the emergence of Judah (the son of Israel):

Page 24:

Pliny, takes pleasure in amazing his readers
by saying of the Essenes for thousands of centuries a
people has existed that is eternal...

Some modern readers are already quick to dismiss such comments
as propaganda or error, and that the Essenes can only be defined
within the confines of the JEWISH (i.e., Judah-ite) theology,
if not the post-Maccabean Jewish theology!

And yet the Boccaccini is perfectly comfortable discussing
Enochian theology that precedes even the rise of the Zadokites.

At some point, one has to wonder about the semantic confusion
that could be standing in the way of seeing the multiple possibilities
for interpreting the roots of Enochian sectarianism, and its influences
on the rest of Hebrew thought.

Historians point to the emphasis on Zadokites in the Dead Sea
Scrolls as an indication that the Essenes were derived from group
of Jewish Zadokite priests.

In the past I have pointed out that another interpretation is
that since the Essenes were a voluntary association, Zadokite
priests could have elected to JOIN the Essenes, rather than the
Essenes were established to protect Zadokite preeminence.

But there are other solutions as well.  After the rise of the
Maccabeans and the Hasmoneans, the Samaritan temple was quite
proud of the authenticity (which doesn't appear challenged)
of their OWN Zadokite priesthood.  This priesthood comes from a
time that a Jewish high priest fled/moved to Samaria and established
his lineage there.  This is a slightly different trajectory from
the rise of Dositheanism, where a devotion to the Jerusalem cultus
is transplanted amongst Samaritans which creates ethnically
Samaritan people who are religiously Jewish.

So now we have THREE possible avenues for the Zadokite presence
moving into Samarian environs.  And thus THREE possible ways for
Samaritan Zadokites to become a part of the pan-Hebrew Essene
movement.

But *WAS* the Essene movement pan-Hebrew?

The Suda/Suidas material explicitly says it was.  It says that
the Rechabites (certainly non-Jewish, but based on Jeremiah's
discussion at least partly Hebrew) were the source of the
Essenes.  Here's a helpful URL on the Suda article:

http://www.stoa.org/sol-bin//search.pl?

Search for the Epsilon article number 3123.

Search results for epsilon,3123 in Adler number: 

Headword: Essaioi 
Adler number: epsilon,3123 
Translated headword: Essenes, Essaioi

Translation: 
Jews, ascetics, who differ exceedingly from the Pharisees and scribes
with reference to their mode of life;[1] progeny[2] of Jonadab, son of
Rechab the righteous. They are fond of one another and more pious than
others: they turn away from pleasure as from an evil, but they assume
moderation, self-control, and the capacity not to succumb to passions as
virtues. And marriage is despised among them, but taking to themselves
other people's children while they are still young and teaching them,
they consider them as kin, and stamp them with their own customs. And
they reject all baseness and practice every other virtue. They cultivate
moral speech, and are generally assiduous in contemplation. And hence
they are called Essaioi, [Sitters][3] with the name signifying this,
that is, [they are] contemplators.[4]  Essaioi very much excel and are
very much superior to the Pharisees in their mode of life.[5]


Greek Original:
Essaioi: Ioudaioi, askêtai, Pharisaiôn kai grammateôn tên askêsin ex
epimetrou dianestêkotes, progonoi Iônadab, huiou Rhichab tou dikaiou.
philallêloi kai tôn allôn eulabeis pleion: hoi tên men hêdonên hôs kakian
apostrephontai, tên de sôphrosunên kai enkrateian kai to mê tois pathesin
hupopiptein aretên hupolambanousi. kai gamos men par' autois huperoratai,
allotrious de paidas neous eti proslambanomenoi kai didaskontes hôs
sungeneis hêgountai kai tois êthesin heautôn entupousi. kai pan aischron
apoballontai kai pasan allên aretên exaskousin. hoi epimelountai tês
êthikês lexeôs, theôriai de ta polla paramenousin. enthen kai Essaioi
kalountai, touto dêlountos tou onomatos, toutesti theôrêtikoi. hoti

[no subject]

2002-08-01 Thread Orion List Owner


I would like to express my condolences to all those
affected by yesterdays terrorist attack.


...Orion-List Moderator.


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orion-list Conference Announcement (fwd)

2002-07-25 Thread Orion List Owner


I don't remember if I have posted this already, apologies if I have.

...Orion-List Moderator.

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:45:19 +0200
From: zangenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Conference Announcement

Dear Moderator, 

On behalf of my colleague Dr. Katharina Galor I wish to inform all ORION readers 
of an international conference on Qumran archaeology to be held on November 18/19 
at Brown University (see attachment). We would very much appreciate it if you 
could post the announcement on the ORION list. 

With many thanks for your help and all best wishes, 

Dr. Jürgen Zangenberg



CONFER~1.DOC
Description: Binary data


orion-list First book on the Qumran cemeteries

2002-07-08 Thread Zdzislaw Jan Kapera

   Dear Sirs, 
  In connection with the very hot recent discussion on the Qumran 
   and Jericho tombs in the Orion-net, as Editor of a just published 
   extremely important book by Professor Robert Donceel (University of 
   Louvain-La-Neuve, Belgium) I should like to bring it to the 
   attention of all those interested. The book is 'Synthese des 
   observations faites en fouillant les tombes des necropoles de 
   Khirbet Qumran et des environs / The Khirbet Qumran Cemeteries. A 
   Synthesis of the Archaeological Data, Cracovie / Cracow 2002. 
   The book is not yet officially released and so it is known only to 
   a few reviewers. It is a special issue of THE QUMRAN CHRONICLE 
   (Volume 10, dated May 2002) and should reach some semninary and 
   university libraries in the USA within four to six weeks 
   (depending on priority or surface delivery). We have just started 
   sending it out. 
 The small book (114 pages) is in French, but has four pages 
   English summary. The contents and the captions of twenty-one 
   plates are bilingual.
 This first synthesis containing MANY NEW DATA, including unknown 
   pages from Father Roland de Vaux's field notes, previously 
   unpublished drawings and photographs, and also the first plan and 
   a big aerial photograph of the main Qumran cemetery, will be 
   useful also to non-subscribers. We have prepared some extra copies 
   for such people. To obtain a copy please contact the 
   editor directly at this e-mail address: 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   
yours truly   Dr. Z. J. Kapera
  Jagiellonian University 


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orion-list Hassid Encyc Jud

2002-06-29 Thread ethel jean saltz

 Also:   Assideans (anc. sect);  Hasideans (rel. sect. 4/3 cent., Er. Isr.);  Hasidim 
(rel. sect. 4/3 cent., Er. Isr.)

 HASSIDEANS (Assideans; Greek form of Hebrew Hasidim; pious ones), religious group 
or sect which originated in about the third or fourth century B.C.E. It centered 
around the revival and promotion of Jewish rites, study of the Law, and the uprooting 
of paganism from the land. The date of origin cannot be known with certainty. The 
Hassideans are first mentioned by name during the persecutions of Antiochus IV 
(Ephiphanes), king of Syria (175–164 B.C.E.), when its members joined the Maccabean 
opposition led by Mattathias in his revolt against the Syrians. They formed the 
nucleus of the Maccabean revolt and refused to compromise in any way with the 
Hellenizing policy of the Syrians. The Hassideans were exposed to torture and death 
for their refusal to desecrate the Sabbath and other Jewish observances. In I 
Maccabees 2:41 it is recorded that they were mighty men in Israel... such as were 
devoted to the Law. In I Maccabees 4 they are described as welcoming peace with the 
Syrians when the latter offered them assurances of religious liberty. The Hassideans 
ceased to cooperate with the Hasmoneans (the successors of Judah the Maccabee) in 
their fight for political independence.

 Certain references to the Hasidim are found in the Psalms (12:2, 30:5, 31:24, 38:28, 
et al.), but it is doubtful that these accounts refer to the Hassideans. The passages 
speak of the efforts of the Hassideans to observe the Law, their persecutions by 
their adversaries, and their struggles against their enemies. References to Hasidim 
in the Mishnah and the Talmud (Ber. 5:1, Hag. 2:7, Sot. 3:4, Avot 5:10 and Nid. 17a) 
may refer to the Hassideans or merely to pious individuals of a later period. The 
Talmud refers to the strict observance of the commandments by Hasidim, to their 
ardent prayers, which they would not renounce even at the risk of their lives, and to 
their rigid observance of the Sabbath. Because of their meticulous observances the 
Hassideans have been linked with the Essenes, but scholarly consensus places them as 
the spiritual forerunners of the Pharisees.
 [Menahem Mansoor]
 

-- 
Be-ahavah oo-ve-shalom oo-ve-emet, Ethel Jean Saltz
Mac(hiavelli)-Niet(zsche)-Spin(oza)-Gal(ileo), 392 A.G. (after Galileo)
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orion-list Samaritans Encyc Jud

2002-06-27 Thread ethel jean saltz

 Cuthens (sect.);  Language, Samaritan;  Shamerim
 SAMARITANS.

 HISTORY
 Until 1300
 Until the middle of the 20th century it was customary to believe that the Samaritans 
originated from a mixture of the people living in Samaria and other peoples at the 
time of the conquest of Samaria by Assyria (722/1 B.C.E.). The biblical account in II 
Kings 17 had long been the decisive source for the formulation of historical accounts 
of Samaritan origins. Reconsideration of this passage, however, has led to more 
attention being paid to the Chronicles of the Samaritans themselves. With the 
publication of Chronicle II (Sefer ha-Yamim), the fullest Samaritan version of their 
own history became available (see below). Two types of information on Samaritan 
history are available: the chronicles, and a variety of non-Samaritan materials 
(which have been well treated by J. A. Montgomery in The Samaritans (1907, 1968), ch. 
4–7). According to the former, the Samaritans are the direct descendants of the 
Joseph tribes, Ephraim and Manasseh, and until the 17th century C.E. they possessed a 
high priesthood descending directly from Aaron through Eleazar and Phinehas. They 
claim to have continuously occupied their ancient territory in central Palestine and 
to have been at peace with the other Israelite tribes until the time when Eli 
disrupted the Northern cult by moving from Shechem to Shiloh and attracting some 
northern Israelites to his new cult there. For the Samaritans, this was the schism 
par excellence.

 It is not known as a matter of fact whether the priesthood in northern Israel 
survived the Assyrian conquest. The Samaritan chronicles report the exile of the 
sons of Israel, the Samaritans (the Bible refers to the people of Israel; II Kings 
17:24), including the high priest. Nor is there any evidence beyond Samaritan sources 
as to whether the Samaritans existed as a separate entity among the Samarians. If 
they did exist as a religious group, but were not involved in the political struggles 
of the eighth century, they may have survived in situ (except for a period in exile) 
and thus perpetuated both their priesthood and cult. Certainly their chronicles refer 
to the Samaritans as a distinct religious unit in Israel through the period of the 
kings and thereafter throughout the Persian, Greek, Roman, and Arab eras. Available 
information does not confirm whether the Samaritan claim is true, but it is likewise 
uncertain whether statements of II Kings 17 are exact. It seems certain that only a 
very small percentage of the Samarian, or northern Israelite, people were exiled, to 
judge from Sargon's own account, and he makes no mention of any religious groups. The 
number of foreigners imported into Samaria cannot have been large. It is more than 
likely that II Kings 17 focused events which were spread over a good part of a 
century (Montgomery, 51) and referred to a number of small migrations rather than 
some great migration immediately following the conquest. Separate migrations under 
Sargon, Esarhaddon, and Ashurbanipal probably took place, but the immigrants would 
have become assimilated to the much larger indigenous population.

 Little guidance is obtained from the name of the Samaritans. The Bible uses the name 
Shomronim MynrmQ) once, in II Kings 17:29, but this probably means Samarians rather 
than Samaritans. The Samaritans themselves do not use the name at all; they have long 
called themselves Shamerim (MyrmS); i.e., keepers or observers, of the truth = al 
ha-emet, both the short and long forms being in constant use in their chronicles. 
They take the name Shomronim to mean inhabitants of the town of Samaria built by Omri 
(cf. I Kings 16:24, where the probable origin of the word Shomronim is to be found).

 Chronicle II reports the history of the kings of Israel and Judah with some 
additional material concerning local cultic matters. This chronicle is a late 
compilation (1908) whose author used as his source material parts of the biblical 
historical books which he combined to the accounts of the earlier Samaritan 
chronicles, especially those of Abu-al-Fath. After the account of the exile, which is 
obviously excerpted from the biblical account, the return from exile is reported as 
follows: during the reign of the High Priest Abdel, the community of the Samaritan 
Israelites, along with many of the tribe of Levi, returned to Canaan. This came about 
because of a seven-year famine there, coupled with attacks by lions. The inhabitants 
of Canaan sent a message to King Swrdy (Cyrus or Smerdis), who was in Haran, 
reporting what was happening in the land. They wanted to know how the former 
inhabitants had succeeded in living in security. The Samaritan high priest explained 
to the king how they had lived and worshiped in Canaan, and as a result he commanded 
the Samaritans to return with his assistance. After summoning the Samaritans in 
scattered areas of Mesopotamia, with only partial 

orion-list Anti-Samaritan Polemics of Enochian Texts

2002-06-26 Thread George Brooks

Below is an excerpt from an old R. Gmyrken post
concerning the the anti-Samaritan tone of Enochian
literature:


http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/orion/archives/1996b/msg00871.html

I've been studying these documents this fall, and I think
I can advance David Suter's arguments a little.  It seems
to me that Testament of Levi doesn't merely argue against improper
priestly marriages, but at several points very
specifically marriages with gentiles, and even more
specifically against marriages with Samaritans [i.e.,
the mortal exemplars of my Watchers! George B.].

The alleged rape of Dinah by Shemer figures
prominently here as in Jubilees, underscoring the
point.  The historical context of these anti-Samaritan
polemics is unclear, but in Josephus the Jewish
high priest Manasseh was evicted from the Jerusalem
priesthood for marrying the daughter of the Samaritan
Sanballat (II) and subsequently served in the temple
at Mount Gerizim, along with other Jewish priests.
And later the Tobaids, who had Samaritan connections, intermarried with
the Oniad high priestly clan

My point in discussing this is that the polemics
in Watchers may not necessarily reflect criticism
of one group of priests serving in the temple
by another, but a criticism of ex-priests or
evicted priests.  I'm not sure how Jewish-Samaritan
polemics bears on Ian's model, or whether MMT reflects
the same polemics as Watchers.  Apples and oranges?
[End of quotes]

Considering how long ago this post was, I think it
is eerily on point about my own suggestions about
the anti-Samaritan tone of the Enochian literature.

Thoughts?

George Brooks
Tampa, FL


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orion-list RE: orion V2002 #32

2002-06-25 Thread Edmund Esterbauer



Is there an objective number system in Hebrew letters i.e. a biblical code?


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Re: orion-list RE: orion V2002 #32

2002-06-25 Thread avigdor horovitz

Dear Edmund,
There is a well established system of numerical values assigned to Hebrew
letters. It's referred to as Gematria, so aleph=1, bet=2, etc. There are
expansions of it relating to higher numbers. THere is no question about
its existence. There are questions, however, about its origin and date of
origin, the majority of scholars agreeing to its origins in the
Hellenistic period. There are, however, some indications that it may have
existed earlier, although its nature and extant would be highly
controversial. THere are parallels to gematria in Akkadian, but there too
the extant of its use is far from clear. You can find brief descriptions
of gematria in standard reference works on Judaism.

The term Bible Code as applied to some recently discovered and
sensationalized form of bibliomancy is quite another matter, and I refer
you to the web site of Prof. Jeffrey Tigay of University of Pennsylvania
for a serious discussion and debunking of this fad.
See
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jtigay/codetext.html

Victor



On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Edmund Esterbauer wrote:

 
 
 Is there an objective number system in Hebrew letters i.e. a biblical code?
 
 


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orion-list Re: gematria Encyc Jud/aica

2002-06-25 Thread ethel jean saltz

 GEMATRIA (From Gr. gewmetria, one of the aggadic hermeneutical rules for 
interpreting the Torah (Baraita of 32 Rules, no. 29). It consists of explaining a 
word or group of words according to the numerical value of the letters, or of 
substituting other letters of the alphabet for them in accordance with a set system. 
Whereas the word is normally employed in this sense of manipulating according to the 
numerical value, it is sometimes found with the meaning of calculations (Avot 
3:18). Similarly where the reading in present editions of the Talmud is that Johanan 
b. Zakkai knew the heavenly revolutions and gematriot, in a parallel source the 
reading is the heavenly revolutions and calculations (Suk. 28a; BB 134a; Ch. 
Albeck, Shishah Sidrei Mishnah, 4 (1959), 497).

 The use of letters to signify numbers was known to the Babylonians and the Greeks. 
The first use of gematria occurs in an inscription of Sargon II (727–707 B.C.E.) 
which states that the king built the wall of Khorsabad 16,283 cubits long to 
correspond with the numerical value of his name. The use of gematria (tO Isoyhfon) 
was widespread in the literature of the Magi and among interpreters of dreams in the 
Hellenistic world. The Gnostics equated the two holy names Abraxas (Abracaj) and 
Mithras (Miqraj) on the basis of the equivalent numerical value of their letters 
(365, corresponding to the days of the solar year). Its use was apparently introduced 
in Israel during the time of the Second Temple, even in the Temple itself, Greek 
letters being used to indicate numbers (Shek. 3:2).

 In rabbinic literature numerical gematria first appears in statements by tannaim of 
the second century. It is used as supporting evidence and as a mnemonic by R. Nathan. 
He states that the phrase Elleh ha-devarim (These are the words) occuring in Exodus 
35:1 hints at the 39 categories of work forbidden on the Sabbath, since the plural 
devarim indicates two, the additional article a third, while the numerical equivalent 
of elleh is 36, making a total of 39 (Shab. 70a). R. Judah inferred from the verse, 
From the fowl of the heavens until the beast are fled and gone (Jer. 9:9), that for 
52 years no traveler passed through Judea, since the numerical value of behemah 
(beast) is 52. The Baraita of 32 Rules cites as an example of gematria the 
interpretation that the 318 men referred to in Genesis 14:14 were in fact only 
Eliezer the servant of Abraham, the numerical value of his name being 318. This 
interpretation, which occurs elsewhere (Ned. 32a; Gen. R. 43:2) in the name of Bar 
Kappara, may also be a reply to the Christian interpretation in the Epistle of 
Barnabas that wishes to find in the Greek letters tih, whose numerical value is 318, 
a reference to the cross and to the first two letters of Jesus' name, through which 
Abraham achieved his victory; the Jewish homilist used the same method to refute the 
Christian interpretation.

 The form of gematria which consists of changing the letters of the alphabet 
according to atbash, i.e., the last letter T is substituted for the first a, the 
penultimate S for the second b, etc., already occurs in Scripture: Sheshach (Jer. 
25:26; 51:41) corresponding to Bavel (Babylon). The Baraita of 32 Rules draws 
attention to a second example: lev kamai (Jer. 51:1) being identical, according to 
this system, with Kasdim. Another alphabet gematria is formed by the atbah system, 
i.e., t is substituted for a, H for b, etc., and is called the alphabet of Hiyya 
(Suk. 52b). Rav, the pupil of Hiyya, explained that Belshazzar and his men could not 
read the cryptic writing because it was written in gematria, i.e., according to atbah 
(Sanh. 22a; cf. Shab. 104a).

 Gematria has little significance in halakhah. Where it does occur, it is only as a 
hint or a mnemonic. The rule that when a man takes a nazirite vow for an unspecified 
period, it is regarded as being for 30 days, is derived from the word yihyeh (he 
shall be) in Numbers 6:5, whose numerical value is 30 (Naz. 5a). Even in the 
aggadah, at least among the early amoraim, gematria is not used as a source of ideas 
and homilies but merely to express them in the most concise manner. The statements 
that Noah was delivered not for his own sake but for the sake of Moses (Gen. R. 
26:6), that Rebekah was worthy to have given birth to 12 tribes (ibid. 63:6), and 
that Jacob's ladder symbolizes the revelation at Sinai (ibid. 68:12), do not depend 
on the gematriot given there. These homilies are derived from other considerations 
and it is certain that they preceded the gematriot.

 Gematriot, however, do occupy an important place in those Midrashim whose chief 
purpose is the interpretation of letters, such as the Midrash Haserot vi-Yterot, and 
also in the late aggadic Midrashim (particularly in those whose authors made use of 
the work of Moses b. Isaac ha-Darshan) such as Numbers Rabbah (in Midrash Aggadah, 
published by S. Buber, 1894), and Bereshit Rabbati 

Re: orion-list Water, Water everywhere... For what it is worth,while finding no good links to topographical maps of the Dead Sea region,it does appear that Rochelle is obtaining her information from the followingbook, or something very like it: _The Dead Sea: The Lake and Its Setting_,Edited by TINA M. NIEMI, University of Missouri, Kansas City,ZVI BEN-AVRAHAM, Tel Aviv University, Israel, and JOEL R. GAT,Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel, $85.00, ISBN 0195087038, 1997,Oxford Monographs on Geology and Geophysics 36

2002-06-24 Thread Rochelle I. Altman

Dave,

Hey, Watch it! If I had been using a single source, I would have said so...
and quoted from it. My data are from books, journals, lab reports, and other
scientific reports from across more than 50 years. I have known specifically
about the geology and marine biology of the Med basin and the general area
for more than 35 years. During one delightful 3-year period I was fortunate
to have translated or re-written the English of reports, and drawn many maps
of both the coast and the bed of the Med for an Oceanographic Institute...
and have always kept up with new material on the subjects.

Nobody can cover everything, so I don't know if the above book goes into
the hauntingly familiar similarities between the formation of the mountain
spurs that poke into the Dead Sea basin and the spurs at the undersea
sills of the Med/Atlantic and Black Sea/Med interfaces...

Rochelle

--
Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: orion-list Water, Water everywhere... For what it is worth, while finding no good links to topographical maps of the Dead Sea region, it does appear that Rochelle is obtaining her information from the following book, or something very like it:

2002-06-24 Thread David C. Hindley

Rochelle,

Hey, Watch it! If I had been using a single source, I
would have said so ... and quoted from it. My data are from
books, journals, lab reports, and other scientific reports
from across more than 50 years. I have known specifically
about the geology and marine biology of the Med basin and
the general area for more than 35 years. During one
delightful 3-year period I was fortunate to have translated
or re-written the English of reports, and drawn many maps of
both the coast and the bed of the Med for an Oceanographic
Institute ... and have always kept up with new material on
the subjects.

Nobody can cover everything, so I don't know if the above
book goes into the hauntingly familiar similarities between
the formation of the mountain spurs that poke into the Dead
Sea basin and the spurs at the undersea sills of the
Med/Atlantic and Black Sea/Med interfaces...

Hopefully, I did say one of ... g

While trying to find any sort of terrain map on the web (at
which I was unsuccessful) I stumbled upon this volume at the
Oxford U.P. site. The description of the contents seemed
right on target:

Contributors
1. Dead Sea research - An introduction, Tina Niemi, Zvi
Ben-Avraham, and Joel R. Gat
PART I: Structure and Tectonics of the Dead Sea Basin
2. Topography and bathymetry of the Dead Sea depression,
John K. Hall
3. Geophysical framework of the Dead Sea: Structure and
tectonics, Zvi Ben-Avraham
4. The history and formation of the Dead Sea basin, Zvi
Garfunkel
5. Hydrocarbon exploration in the southern Dead Sea area,
Michael Gardosh, Eliezer Kashai, Shalom Salhov, Haim
Shulman, and Eli Tannenbaum
6. Active tectonics in the Dead Sea basin, Tina M. Niemi and
Zvi Ben-Avraham
7.  On the seismicity of the Dead Sea basin, Avi Shapira
PART II: Physical, Chemical, and Biological Aspects of the
Dead Sea
8. The hydrography of a hypersaline lake, David A. Anati
9. Surface currents and seiches in the Dead Sea, Ziv Sirkes,
Florian Schirmer, Heinz-Hermann Essen, and Klaus-Werner
Gurgel
10. Wind waves on the Dead Sea, Artur Hecht, Tal Ezer,
Avraham Huss, and Aviv Shapira
11. Evaporation estimate for the Dead Sea: Essential
considerations for saline Lakes, Ilana Steinhorn
12. Evolution of the Dead Sea brines, Israel Zak
13. Ion Interaction approach to geochemical aspects of the
Dead Sea, Boris S. Krumgalz
14. Halite deposition from the Dead Sea: 1960-1993, Ittai
Gavrieli
15. Halite precipitation and sediment deposition as measured
in sediment traps deployed in the Dead Sea: 1981-1983,
Mariana Stiller, Joel R. Gat, and Perla Kaushansky
16. Carbon dynamics in the Dead Sea, Boaz Luz, Mariana
Stiller, and A. Siep Talma
17. The radiocarbon content of the Dead Sea, A. Siep Talma,
John C. Vogel, and Mariana Stiller
18. Iron, manganese, and trace elements in the Dead Sea, Ami
Nishri and Mariana Stiller
19. Microbiological studies in the Dead Sea: 1892-1992,
Aharon Oren
PART III: Quaternary History of the Lake and Its Environment
20. Geomorphology of the Dead Sea western margin, Dan Bowman
21. Fluctuations of Late Pleistocene Lake Lisan in the Dea
Sea Rift, Tina M. Niemi
22. The Holocene history of Dead Sea levels, Amos Frumkin
23. The Dead Sea region: An archaeological perspective,
Itzaq Beit-Arieh
24. Geochemical and hydrological processes in the coastal
environment of the Dead Sea, Yoseph Yechieli and Joel R. Gat
25. Groundwaters along the western Dead Sea shore, Emanuel
Mazor
26. The botanical conquest of the newly exposed shores of
the Dead Sea, Erga Aloni, Amram Eshel, and Yoav Waisel
27. Dead Sea research: Synopsis and future, Joel R. Gat,
Tina M. Niemi, and Zvi Ben-Avraham
Index

It looks as though some of those articles you mention are
reproduced here. Of course, I did not mean to suggest that
your knowledge was limited to a single reference volume!

Respectfully,

Dave Hindley
Cleveland, Ohio, USA


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Re: orion-list Water, Water everywhere... For what it is worth,

2002-06-24 Thread Rochelle I. Altman

Dave,

This sure sounds like a great resource...

I didn't think you intended to or I'd have pulled your ears off VBG

Cheers,

Rochelle
--
Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: orion-list Water, Water everywhere...

2002-06-24 Thread Ian Hutchesson


Dear Rochelle,

   The cracked cistern
   ---
   Zavislock, .. He sees that the cracking was done at the
   first introduction of water into the structure --

Fair enough; *as I noted*, if from settling because of the clay softening,
it would have cracked at the first rains. However, you still have not
accounted for cracks in other cisterns or for the damage to other parts of
the water system

If there is some sort of subsidence, it's not going 
to stop where the cistern concerned stops.

(BTW, if at first fill, the crack could have been repaired; the techniques
and materials were known for 3,000 plus years by the 2nd BCE.)

But then, this is also true for the earthquake theory. 
(Usually people rebuild and got on with things after a 
quake.)

   
   Dead Sea topography
   ---
   The conversation was about the limit of the sea level based on the
   location of Ein Feshka during the Qumran period. I can't see how
   hypothetical crevices, passes, caves, etc., have any bearing on the
   local topography so as to render irrelevant the altitude of Ein Feshka
   as a limiting factor for the height of the sea at the time. Perhaps you
   could explain.

It is _5 miles_ (or 9 kilometers) 

It's actually less than 3 km as the crow flies 
going by de Vaux's map. John Bartlett, Arch.  
Bib. Interpretation, p88, gives it as 2 km. 

(It's much closer to the sea than Qumran, 1/2 km 
as compared to about 1 km, but the land rises 
more rapidly approaching Ras Feshka.)

and be careful how you interpret littoral
-- we are not talking about a nice, flat sand beach, not even the Estoral --

I understand litora as indicative of the coastal zone, 
as in other parts of Pliny, we find towns in litore.

and while I realize that photographs taken from above make it look as if the
littoral of the Dead Sea is flat... there are plenty of mountainous intrusions.

The photographs I have in mind are de Vaux, Arch.  
DSS, Plates XXXa and XXXI, especially XXXa, which 
was taken at a height similar to the foot of the 
Qumran shelf. The land is not flat but it's low. You 
can see some of its formation in XXXI. Mountainous 
intrusions doesn't seem to provide a good idea; low 
undulations, especially sedimentary around the wadis.

The limiter is the height of the lowest pass between the two sites. The
question is when that lowest point opened.

I can't see the reasoning here.

   Please get a book on the geology of the Med and another on hydrology;
   This is just being naughty.

Perhaps; but I do have sufficient reason from other assertions you have made
in the past to have doubts as to your first hand knowledge on subjects you
have raised, no?

We are trying to understand something, not play 
oneupmanship. We both think the data's important.

   Our main indication is a crack running through a few conjoining cisterns.
   We can't start with the -- in this case -- unlearned opinion of de Vaux,
   who after all was not an architect or a geologist.

Hmm, I don't remember saying anywhere that I depended upon de Vaux --

He was the one who uncovered the evidence. If you 
know of some analysis of earthquake effects at the 
Qumran site after the writing of Arch.  DSS (c.1970), 
I would appreciate any bibliographical lead! The 
earthquake of 31 BCE is taken by the old school as 
the terminus of period 1b. And de Vaux only knows of 
Steckoll's use of Zavislock.

   I think the ball is still in your court: what actual evidence do you have
   to suggest the altitude of Ein Feshka isn't the limiting factor for the
   height of the sea during Qumran times?

The peak recorded in the geological records. These Lisan records are not
smooth curves up and down. They're bumpy; with increases and decreases showing
up even as the greater increase in overall level is recorded. The level during
the period covering the construction of the site is not a little blip; it's
the very peak of a good sized high with a dip and then a slight rise on the
near (towards CE) side and then a bumpy slide with small peaks on the downhill
side till the deposit record finally disappears through lack of adequate
rainfall.

It makes sense in a stats graph sort of way, but 
I don't see that this is as dealing with the 
problem.

But then, the whole point of getting involved in a thread out here is this:
The site shows two different periods of habitation. (In fact, from what
evidence we do have, we are talking about two different types of inhabitants
as well.) 

We agree here.

The geological record also shows two different periods of water
level. What applies to one period of habitation and/or water-level does not
necessarily apply to the other.

What are the sources that indicate that the water 
level was noticeably different between the two 
periods? (This is interesting, though I would be 
happy even with just a quotable indication of the 
general height of the sea level at the time with 
its 50% 

Re: orion-list Onias and the Sons of Zadok

2002-06-23 Thread Ian Hutchesson


Perhaps others on the list can be more convincing than
I can be from your point of view.  But having just 
finished Boccaccini's BEYOND THE ESSENE HYPOTHESIS, I
would have to say his discussion of HOW MUCH to conclude
from the classical sources, and which sources mean what,
is about as good a presentation as I've seen online or
in hard copy.

This is because there are no serious arguments online 
or in hardcopy that justify the Essene Hypothesis.

One can sift only so far through the same stuff that we 
have had before us for the last 50 years. There is nothing 
new in the way of source materials, other than scrolls 
made available which argue against the Essenes. (Think for 
example of 4Q502 [Ritual of Marriage], which cites a part 
of 1QS, the so-called sectarian foundational document. Oh, 
I know, it must be those marrying Essenes again.)

To nearly all those parallels that people like Dupont-
Sommer put together, the answer is either too generic or 
unsubstantiated.

We are left with the same lack of argument: if the Essenes 
didn't write the scrolls, well, who did? This is no 
argument whatsoever.

Qumran is not off the littoral zone of the sea, yet Pliny 
tells us the Essenes flee from the littoral. (Salt land 
grows nothing. Fish hazarding into the sea die almost 
immediately and are eventually found along the shore.) As 
Pliny's itinerary at this point goes from east to west, 
there is no downstream movement not north to south movement, 
so the usually Essene Hypothesis explanations of Pliny's 
infra hos engada oppidum fuit simply don't hold water. 

   -

I think it's extremely hard to argue against the fact that 
the community in some of the scrolls reflects the temple 
centred community, with its reliance on the written torah 
(as opposed to the Pharisees), reliance on bloodlines (as 
opposed to the Essenes), headed by the sons of Zadok. This 
seems like a community based in the temple. One would 
expect those who maintain purity in order to go into the 
temple would ostensibly have little or nothing to do with 
women and those who belonged to the community were expected 
to maintain temple purity, similar to haburot. What we have 
in scrolls like 1QS may be an association of those who 
maintain temple purity -- which had its own possessions, 
while individuals maintained theirs, which was a male-only 
association, while individuals were almost certainly 
married (there is a lot about marriage in the scrolls).


Ian


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Re: orion-list Water, Water everywhere...

2002-06-23 Thread Ian Hutchesson


Dear Rochelle,

I'd like to deal with two things:

The cracked cistern
---
Parenthetically, the so-called earthquake faultline supplied by de Vaux
as having damaged the eastern cistern, seems to have been an invention,
as another explanation for the data, supplied by our old friend
Steckoll, indicates that the Lisan marl moved under the weight of the
water in the cistern causing the cracking and the cistern's abandonment.

I'd be very hesitant to accept Steckoll's reasoning here. 

It is not Steckoll's reasoning here, but that of Tom 
Zavislock, an architect with experience in repairs 
after earthquake damage (who did reconstruction work 
at Qumran). Steckoll cites his analysis, which 
includes the determination that there were no traces 
whatsoever of any earthquake damage to the Qumran 
building. He sees that the cracking was done at the 
first introduction of water into the structure -- 
whether it was when it was first built or after 
repairs.



Dead Sea topography
---
(Nevertheless there are numerous earthquakes on record, though none of
them is accredited with having changed any topography.

Any??? What did I write? Major topographic changes, no, but is anyone about
to claim that every rock formation, every crevice, every pass, every cave,
every inch of the way between the building complex and the spring is
identical today to what it was in the 2nd BCE? 

The conversation was about the limit of the sea level 
based on the location of Ein Feshka during the Qumran 
period. I can't see how hypothetical crevices, passes, 
caves, etc., have any bearing on the local topography 
so as to render irrelevant the altitude of Ein Feshka 
as a limiting factor for the height of the sea at the 
time. Perhaps you could explain.

I agree that the effects of earthquakes can seem very 
strange. But you seem to be positing some intervening 
change that requires no evidence to be left behind. 
From what evidence we have, there is nothing which 
advocates any sort of topographical change along the 
littoral where we find both Qumran and Ein Feshka to 
suggest that the water level at the time of their 
occupation could have been higher than the present 
altitude of Ein Feshka -- which seems to be the notion 
you have put forward. While such a local topographical 
change is vaguely possible, I think the onus is on the 
proposer to show some signs.

This may be interesting theoretically, but have there been any signs of
drastic change anywhere along the western side of the Dead Sea?

Yes; there was a drastic change in the water level, which does indicate
topographical changes with the opening of channels and passes, etc., albeit,
2000 odd years ago.

It is the change in water level that is under question. 

I am in the middle of the time-consuming, eye-straining, and nit-picking
job of balancing a new printer font and I do not have time to keep this up.
Please get a book on the geology of the Med and another on hydrology;

This is just being naughty.

perhaps one on plate tectonics 

(Umm, I've got a few of those of the type The 
Duffer's Guide to Continental Drift and The 
Woodchuck's Manual of Plate Tectonics.)

and maybe an Architect's handbook for
calculating ratios on weight distribution, too  

I'll leave this to the expert opinion of Zavislock 
for the moment. If you're interested, Steckoll cites 
the information in RQ 25 (Dec 1969), p.34. It may be 
ok for people to slag Steckoll, but I think one needs 
to consider the information. Our main indication is a 
crack running through a few conjoining cisterns. We 
can't start with the -- in this case -- unlearned 
opinion of de Vaux, who after all was not an architect 
or a geologist. (See p.20 of Archaeology and the DSS.)

-- and then get back to me.

I think the ball is still in your court: what 
actual evidence do you have to suggest the altitude of 
Ein Feshka isn't the limiting factor for the height of 
the sea during Qumran times?


Ian







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RE: orion-list Water, Water everywhere...

2002-06-23 Thread David C. Hindley

Ian H says:

The conversation was about the limit of the sea level
based on the location of Ein Feshka during the Qumran
period. I can't see how hypothetical crevices, passes,
caves, etc., have any bearing on the local topography so as
to render irrelevant the altitude of Ein Feshka as a
limiting factor for the height of the sea at the time.
Perhaps you could explain.

I think you missed Rochelle's point. It seemed quite clear
to me that she was suggesting that earthquake activity, even
slight, could change the physical features in the mountain
range above the Dead Sea, thus affecting the amount of
runoff water to flow into it. I took this to mean that a
change that diverted more water into the lake than had been
the case beforehand could raise the water level
significantly. Significant is as little as a few feet. A
change of just 1 foot can, depending on the slope of the
terrain, move a coastline many many times that difference in
feet.

On the other hand, wasn't the facility at Ein Feshka built
to take advantage of a mineral spring? If so, its location
may have nothing to do with coastline location at the time
it was built.

How far from the current shore *are* the Qumran and Ein
Feshka facilities, and what are the relative slopes of the
terrain between these facilities and the current shoreline?
I recall seeing photos on the net that were accompanied by
commentary that suggested that significant changes in the
lake's shape had occurred, in both directions.

Respectfully,

Dave Hindley
Cleveland, Ohio, USA



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RE: orion-list Water, Water everywhere...

2002-06-23 Thread Dave Washburn

 Ian H says:
 
 The conversation was about the limit of the sea level
 based on the location of Ein Feshka during the Qumran
 period. I can't see how hypothetical crevices, passes,
 caves, etc., have any bearing on the local topography so as
 to render irrelevant the altitude of Ein Feshka as a
 limiting factor for the height of the sea at the time.
 Perhaps you could explain.
 
 I think you missed Rochelle's point. It seemed quite clear
 to me that she was suggesting that earthquake activity, even
 slight, could change the physical features in the mountain
 range above the Dead Sea, thus affecting the amount of
 runoff water to flow into it. I took this to mean that a
 change that diverted more water into the lake than had been
 the case beforehand could raise the water level
 significantly. Significant is as little as a few feet. A
 change of just 1 foot can, depending on the slope of the
 terrain, move a coastline many many times that difference in
 feet.

First, I think Ian is right to request some evidence of such a change.  
There should be a way to tell by something in the topography 
whether such alterations might have taken place, correct?  Second, 
since it is specifically the Dead Sea that is being discussed, why not 
skip the generalities and focus on the slope of the terrain and how 
a change of just 1 foot would have affected that particular body of 
water?

 On the other hand, wasn't the facility at Ein Feshka built
 to take advantage of a mineral spring? If so, its location
 may have nothing to do with coastline location at the time
 it was built.

Except if it was underwater, which I believe is Ian's point.  The fact 
that it was built where it was strongly suggests that the water line 
was below that point, thus its placement is a fair indicator of how far 
up the water line may have come.  If I've misunderstood Ian here, 
he can let me know and I'll go back to lurking.

[snip]
Dave Washburn
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
You know you're a lousy artist when you can't
draw a straight line on an Etch-a-Sketch.

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RE: orion-list Water, Water everywhere...

2002-06-23 Thread David C. Hindley

Dave Washburn says:

First, I think Ian is right to request some evidence of
such a change.  There should be a way to tell by something
in the topography whether such alterations might have taken
place, correct?  Second, since it is specifically the Dead
Sea that is being discussed, why not skip the generalities
and focus on the slope of the terrain and how a change of
just 1 foot would have affected that particular body of
water?

That is just it, so far no one has said anything about this
sort of thing. If anyone has access to a detailed terrain
map this kind of thing can be determined more precisely.
Certainly someone has done so already, and hopefully someone
here on *this* list knows more about this than has been so
far said. As for evidence for a change in runoff patterns,
you would need to ask some geologists. I believe there would
be some sort of tell-tale signs, although dating them as
precisely as we would like would be a problem.

Except if it was underwater, which I believe is Ian's
point.  The fact that it was built where it was strongly
suggests that the water line was below that point, thus its
placement is a fair indicator of how far up the water line
may have come.  If I've misunderstood Ian here, he can let
me know and I'll go back to lurking.

Of course it would almost certainly not have been underwater
at the time it was built. The general impression I got was
that the issue was whether the facility was built there
solely because of the location of the waterline, and I
thought that this would only have been part of the reason.

I agree with you, let's see some specifics.

Respectfully,

Dave Hindley
Cleveland, Ohio, USA


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Re: orion-list Water, Water everywhere...

2002-06-23 Thread Rochelle I. Altman

Dear Ian,

Okay, time for a coffee break in any case...

   The cracked cistern
   ---
   Zavislock, an architect with experience in repairs
   after earthquake damage (who did reconstruction work
   at Qumran). S
[snip]
   He sees that the cracking was done at the
   first introduction of water into the structure --

Fair enough; *as I noted*, if from settling because of the clay softening,
it would have cracked at the first rains. However, you still have not
accounted for cracks in other cisterns or for the damage to other parts of
the water system

(BTW, if at first fill, the crack could have been repaired; the techniques
and materials were known for 3,000 plus years by the 2nd BCE.)
   
   Dead Sea topography
   ---
   The conversation was about the limit of the sea level based on the
   location of Ein Feshka during the Qumran period. I can't see how
   hypothetical crevices, passes, caves, etc., have any bearing on the
   local topography so as to render irrelevant the altitude of Ein Feshka
   as a limiting factor for the height of the sea at the time. Perhaps you
   could explain.

It is _5 miles_ (or 9 kilometers) and be careful how you interpret littoral
-- we are not talking about a nice, flat sand beach, not even the Estoral --
and while I realize that photographs taken from above make it look as if the
littoral of the Dead Sea is flat... there are plenty of mountainous intrusions.
The limiter is the height of the lowest pass between the two sites. The
question is when that lowest point opened.

   Please get a book on the geology of the Med and another on hydrology;
   This is just being naughty.

Perhaps; but I do have sufficient reason from other assertions you have made
in the past to have doubts as to your first hand knowledge on subjects you
have raised, no?

   I'll leave this to the expert opinion of Zavislock
   for the moment.

Okay, along with the proviso that we still have the other cracks, etc

   Our main indication is a crack running through a few conjoining cisterns.
   We can't start with the -- in this case -- unlearned opinion of de Vaux,
   who after all was not an architect or a geologist.

Hmm, I don't remember saying anywhere that I depended upon de Vaux --

   I think the ball is still in your court: what actual evidence do you have
   to suggest the altitude of Ein Feshka isn't the limiting factor for the
   height of the sea during Qumran times?

The peak recorded in the geological records. These Lisan records are not
smooth curves up and down. They're bumpy; with increases and decreases showing
up even as the greater increase in overall level is recorded. The level during
the period covering the construction of the site is not a little blip; it's
the very peak of a good sized high with a dip and then a slight rise on the
near (towards CE) side and then a bumpy slide with small peaks on the downhill
side till the deposit record finally disappears through lack of adequate
rainfall.

But then, the whole point of getting involved in a thread out here is this:
The site shows two different periods of habitation. (In fact, from what
evidence we do have, we are talking about two different types of inhabitants
as well.) The geological record also shows two different periods of water
level. What applies to one period of habitation and/or water-level does not
necessarily apply to the other.

Coffee break's over; back on my head.

Rochelle
--
Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: orion-list Water, Water everywhere...

2002-06-23 Thread David C. Hindley

For what it is worth, while finding no good links to
topographical maps of the Dead Sea region, it does appear
that Rochelle is obtaining her information from the
following book, or something very like it:

_The Dead Sea: The Lake and Its Setting_, Edited by TINA M.
NIEMI, University of Missouri, Kansas City, ZVI BEN-AVRAHAM,
Tel Aviv University, Israel, and JOEL R. GAT, Weizmann
Institute of Science, Israel, $85.00, ISBN 0195087038, 1997,
Oxford Monographs on Geology and Geophysics 36

Respectfully,

Dave Hindley
Cleveland, Ohio, USA


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Re: orion-list Samaritans Watchers + Angels Watchers

2002-06-21 Thread George Brooks

David,

I understand the limitations of Strongs.  And while I
don't seek to PROVE anything by means of Strongs, I
do use it to EXPLAIN my thoughts and to provide
background of my comments regarding the Hebrew or
Aramaic word in question.

And since I'm not able to read Hebrew or Aramaic, it
can be a useful tool in following the logic of OTHER
contributors to this list.  So I assure you, I will
not expect people to agree with me merely because I
make a reference to Strongs.  But, for the time being,
I will continue to use Strongs as a point of reference
for discussions, until other lexicon and dictionary
definitions are introduced in a relevant way.

Getting back to your discussion, you write about
'irin and 'ir.  And about the meaning of the word
watcher in reference to awake.  And you expressed
your skepticism regarding the possible connection
between Samaritans as Watchers, and between Angels
as Watchers.

And yet I found a perfectly marvelous coincidence
just along those lines!

Using a different site:

5892
 `iyr [ eer ] or (in the plural) par {awr}; or ayar
(Judges 10:4) {aw-yar'};
from '`uwr' (5782) a city
(a place guarded by waking or a watch)

 
5893
 `Iyr [ eer ] the same as '`iyr' (5892);
Ir, an Israelite:--Ir.
 
5894
 `iyr [ eer ]
 (Aramaic) from a root corresponding to '`uwr'
(5782); a watcher, i.e. an angel (as guardian):--watcher.


And what do we see here but another parallel of a
reference to a region and its citizenry (in this case,
Israel), and the term watcher/guard... and SPECIFICALLY
angels.  [ In fact, this appears to be the idea behind
even the English phrase guardian angel... but I
digress.]

I do believe the connection between Israel and
Watcher is more than coincidence.  In my last
post I had drawn the parallel between the term
for Samaritan and the term for Watcher.  And now,
yet again, we find a reference to Israelites
(which would be consistent with the distinction
between those of Israel vs. Judah), which is
phonetically linked to Watchers... and not just
any Watchers but ANGEL watchers.

In the pun-rich literary world of the Jewish
thinkers, I do not think this would have gone unnoticed.
And no doubt the linkage between these word meanings
and the idea that angels were always awake would have
been very attractive to include too.

The Jewish use of puns can make etiologies very tricky
for sure.  For a word meaning can evolve that is over-
determined in that it has more than one related
meaning, and EACH meaning is equally valid.  If a word
gathers enough puns around it, the original source of
the word can easily become obscured.  The word essene
is the textbook example of this.  There are lots of 
credible explanations for where the word came from,
but we struggle at finding THE source for the word because
it appears that the associated puns had a vitality and
significance too.

In this case, I'm not as concerned about the etiology
of the word watcher or angel as I am in its inevitably
expanded use.  And ironically, David, instead of providing
evidence for why the Enochian use of the term Watcher
couldn't be a veiled reference to Samaritan
(i.e., non-Judahite), you've actually provided yet another
clue as to how they COULD be related.
 
Let's discuss the possibilities a little more, yes?

George Brooks
Tampa, FL


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RE: orion-list Samaritans Watchers + Angels Watchers

2002-06-21 Thread David Suter

George,

With your method you can prove anything you want to prove simply by
constructing a roundabout linking of English translations in Strongs. In
the process you discover nothing. 

David Suter
Saint Martin's College

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Re: orion-list Samaritans Watchers + Angels Watchers

2002-06-21 Thread George Brooks

David,

I find the lack of details in your refutation
to be as important as the intolerance of 
your refutation.

Using the very Hebrew term for Angel that you
suggested I used, I found a perfectly interesting
definition (from a resource with no axe to grind)
which SPECIFICALLY links the term Angel to 
guarding/watching (and not just to waking/watching
as you suggested), as well as to a reference to
Israelites.  And thus we have a DOUBLE correlation
with the related terms for Samaritan and Watcher.

The key to a valid refutation is to show how the
published Hebrew definitions you would prefer to use 
propose DIFFERENT meanings for the terms.  I will
patiently wait for you or someone else to provide
this.

My method, as you would call it, is no different
from what others would do with the same information.
All 3 words are phonetically identical (or virtually
identical), and so the word play potential with
these words is evident.

What else would you have me do?  Totally ignore
such AMAZING correlations?

I think you overstate the case that in the process
I discover nothing.  Perhaps you will be more interesting
in helping to explore these correlations on another day.
Until then, the members of the list will have to contemplate
the way these different ideas keep coming together around
the Jewish Enochian theme of the Watchers.

George Brooks
Tampa, FL


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Re: orion-list Samaritans Watchers + Angels Watchers

2002-06-21 Thread Herb Basser

since the lines are getting a little weird let me throw in a tangential
curve:

A friday night sabbath song-- sung universally in many homes-- is in aramaic
which borrows phrases from Daniel and weaves them into a breathtaking
pastiche with its danielic resonance but totally new composition: its second
verse  runs (I provide ashkenazic pronunciation because thats how it sounds
natural to my polish ears) :  I will recite praises morn and eve to you
God Holy One, who has created every creature: irin kadishin-- uvenei anosho
wild animals and birds of heaven (cf dan 2:38) . now irin kadishin is
clearly  WATCHERS, HOLY ONES, (Dan 4:14)  while the next phrase refers to
people.The sense is a transformation and comparison Nebuchnezzar is
described in his dream as ruling over people, wild animals (lit animals of
the field) and birds, the poet sees Gods domain being higher encompassing
angels, plus people animals and birds.  However the prosody of the piece
suggests breaking it up not angles, holy ones: and people and animals and
birds but-- as Angels-- Holy Ones, and bnei anosho, plus animals and birds.
a comma coming after anosho. The meolodies I know all break it up this way
and it seems to me to be its natural scan. That suggests bnei anosho is also
an angelic term for the poet. That suggests a kind of enochian reference to
watchers and sons of man. The question is why does the poet join 4:14 (irin)
to 2:38 (bnei anosho) -- perhaps just to aggrandize God's realm-- or perhaps
because there is a natural allusion for him here and he does not see bnei
anosho as simply people. but also as angelic. hence the reference might be
to creatures of the lower heavens, the upper heavens; the lower part of the
world, the higher part of the world. If so it is the only reference i know
of juxtaposing watchers and son(s) of man in an undisputed jewish text.
still the internal rhyme might seem to dispute such an interpretation-- irIN
kadishIN-- uvenei anoshO, heivat borO veofei shemayO. the counter claim is
to group  anosho with the first batch to parallel shemayo in the last. 10
syllables (shwas may or may not count) But what seems clear to me is that
every stiche in this verse should end in O in this poem--they all do if we
group bnei anosho with irin kadishin-- so here is another jump-- maybe not
as wild as george's but no less flighty.-- the medieval author knows of
ben anash as an angelic term too when coupled with Watchers.

Herb Basser [EMAIL PROTECTED]





- Original Message -
From: David Suter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 4:31 PM
Subject: RE: orion-list Samaritans  Watchers + Angels  Watchers


 George,

 With your method you can prove anything you want to prove simply by
 constructing a roundabout linking of English translations in Strongs. In
 the process you discover nothing.

 David Suter
 Saint Martin's College


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orion-list Samaritans Watchers

2002-06-20 Thread George Brooks

Victory,

You write:
1) What does Buffy the Vampire Slayer have to
do with DSS?

I'll bite what DOES Buffy have to do with the DSS?

Your more serious question was:
2) Could you specify what yo mean by desire to use
a pun to turn praise into shame.
Thanks, Victor
[END OF CLIP]

I'm sure you are familiar with some words and names
that have been amended to make the bible writer's
disapproval of someone fairly evident.

So it doesn't take too much imagination to think
that the Jerusalem leadership might not have wanted
to preserve the more favorable meaning of the word
Samaritan as keeper or doer [of the law].

While there is no obvious shame in the replacement
meaning Watcher it does help to remove the keeper/
doer halo from the Samaritans.  Further, we see an
odd use of a word that is phonetically quite similar
to the term related to Samaritan:


08105 shemer {sheh'-mer}  
from 08104; TWOT - 2415a; n m pl
AV - lees 4, dregs 1; 5
1) lees, dregs

Here we see shemer = dregs.

But below, we have the adjacent Strong's word:

08104 shamar {shaw-mar'}  
a primitive root; TWOT - 2414; v
AV - keep 283, observe 46, heed 35, keeper 28,
preserve 21, beware 9, mark 8, watchman 8, wait 7,
watch 7, regard 5, save 2, misc 9; 468
1) to keep, guard, observe, give heed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to keep, have charge of
1a2) to keep, guard, keep watch and ward,
 protect, save life
1a2a) watch, watchman (participle)
1a3) to watch for, wait for
1a4) to watch, observe
1a5) to keep, retain, treasure up (in memory)
1a6) to keep (within bounds), restrain
1a7) to observe, celebrate, keep (sabbath or
covenant or commands), perform (vow)
1a8) to keep, preserve, protect
1a9) to keep, reserve
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be on one's guard, take heed,
take care, beware
1b2) to keep oneself, refrain, abstain
1b3) to be kept, be guarded
1c) (Piel) to keep, pay heed
1d) (Hithpael) to keep oneself from
[END OF CLIP]

As you can see, this word follows quite closely
to the idea of keeping and preserving.

I'm trying to find a concise reference to the
difference of opinion between the Jews and Samaritans
on how their name was TRULY derived.

But in terms of the Enochian watchers it seems
hard to avoid the pun of connecting the wicked and
unpopular angels (called Watchers)... to the wicked
and unpopular Samaritans (called Watchers, Keepers,
and so on).


George

[SIDE NOTE]
I found it interesting that there was another word
that is ALSO connected to idea of keeping or 
preserving: 

05341 natsar {naw-tsar'}  
a primitive root; TWOT - 1407; v
AV - keep 38, preserve 13, watchmen 3,
besieged 2, keeper 1, monuments 1,
observe + 07521 1, preserver 1, subtil 1,
hidden things 1, watchers 1; 63
1) to guard, watch, watch over, keep
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to watch, guard, keep
1a2) to preserve, guard from dangers
1a3) to keep, observe, guard with fidelity
1a4) to guard, keep secret
1a5) to be kept close, be blockaded
1a6) watchman (participle)

I find it more than passingly interesting that this
word should be so phonetically similar to another
term that gets thrown around alot:


05342 netser {nay'-tser}  
from 05341 
TWOT - 1408a; n m
AV - branch 4; 4
1) sprout, shoot, branch (always fig.)


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RE: orion-list Samaritans Watchers

2002-06-20 Thread David Suter

George,

This doesn't work.  Strongs is not an appropriate tool for serious
scholarship, and meaning connections based on English equivalents are
much too slippery.  The Aramaic term in question for watcher or
angel, (YR ('Ayin-Yod-Resh), means to be awake and designates one of
the immortals (or angels) in contrast to mortals, who sleep (note the
story in the Gilgamesh Epic where Utnapishtim points out to Gilgamesh
that if he cannot stave off sleep, he cannot hope to succeed in his
quest for undying life).  It has nothing to do with being a doer or
keeper of the Torah.  Even in the Book of Enoch, the term 'ir is
morally neutral, since there are 'irin who remain in heaven as well as
those who take wives and are condemned to the depths of the earth.  It's
not going to work as an inversion of Samaritan, which if related to the
root that means watch or guard, would reflect a different connotation.  

David Suter
Saint Martin's College

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of George Brooks
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 8:02 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: orion-list Samaritans  Watchers


I'm sure you are familiar with some words and names
that have been amended to make the bible writer's
disapproval of someone fairly evident.

So it doesn't take too much imagination to think
that the Jerusalem leadership might not have wanted
to preserve the more favorable meaning of the word
Samaritan as keeper or doer [of the law].

While there is no obvious shame in the replacement
meaning Watcher it does help to remove the keeper/
doer halo from the Samaritans.  Further, we see an
odd use of a word that is phonetically quite similar
to the term related to Samaritan:


08105 shemer {sheh'-mer}  
from 08104; TWOT - 2415a; n m pl
AV - lees 4, dregs 1; 5
1) lees, dregs

Here we see shemer = dregs.

But below, we have the adjacent Strong's word:

08104 shamar {shaw-mar'}  
a primitive root; TWOT - 2414; v
AV - keep 283, observe 46, heed 35, keeper 28,
preserve 21, beware 9, mark 8, watchman 8, wait 7,
watch 7, regard 5, save 2, misc 9; 468
1) to keep, guard, observe, give heed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to keep, have charge of
1a2) to keep, guard, keep watch and ward,
 protect, save life
1a2a) watch, watchman (participle)
1a3) to watch for, wait for
1a4) to watch, observe
1a5) to keep, retain, treasure up (in memory)
1a6) to keep (within bounds), restrain
1a7) to observe, celebrate, keep (sabbath or
covenant or commands), perform (vow)
1a8) to keep, preserve, protect
1a9) to keep, reserve
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be on one's guard, take heed,
take care, beware
1b2) to keep oneself, refrain, abstain
1b3) to be kept, be guarded
1c) (Piel) to keep, pay heed
1d) (Hithpael) to keep oneself from
[END OF CLIP]

As you can see, this word follows quite closely
to the idea of keeping and preserving.

I'm trying to find a concise reference to the
difference of opinion between the Jews and Samaritans
on how their name was TRULY derived.

But in terms of the Enochian watchers it seems
hard to avoid the pun of connecting the wicked and
unpopular angels (called Watchers)... to the wicked
and unpopular Samaritans (called Watchers, Keepers,
and so on).


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Re: orion-list Water, Water everywhere...

2002-06-18 Thread Ian Hutchesson


Dear Rochelle,

As the topic seems interesting, I guess I should have asked 
a more useful question than

   Is it really that clockwork?

How is the data extracted from the Lisan-type deposits and 
how is it dated? While dendrochronology is more or less only 
a matter of counting tree rings, the methodology here seems 
obscure to me.

There's an obvious and important limiter to the water level
at the time of the Qumran settlement: Ein Feshka is located
relatively low in altitude, at about the height of the foot
of the rock ledge on which Qumran stands.

Why the assumption that the terrain between the two sites is exactly
today as it was 2,200-2,300 years ago? 

Let's say 1950 years ago: de Vaux reckons that the northern 
installation at Ein Feshka was from Period II.

...How could it be? General features,
yes: the mountains are still there; the Dead Sea is still a closed basin,
the Lisan Peninsula remains, but, exact features? How high was the water
level during that peak period when Qumran was built? 

The reason I mentioned Ein Feshka, which has close 
connections with Qumran, is because of its altitude, 
which is several metres lower than Qumran. There 
seems to have been some sort of limiting wall which 
connected one site to the other. Whatever supplied 
Ein Feshka's northern installation was brought from 
the nerth-west and its drainage was to the north-
east, which tells us about the local topography --
which seems to relevant to today's topography as 
well. 

When was pass 'X'
opened that changed a micro-climate closed basin into a open basin?
And by what means? There is more than wind, water, and sun to consider.
We are not talking about the Cambrian shield here; we are talking about
an area sitting on a major fault where continental plates grind their way
across each other. There are always earthquakes; 

Parenthetically, the so-called earthquake faultline 
supplied by de Vaux as having damaged the eastern 
cistern, seems to have been an invention, as another 
explanation for the data, supplied by our old friend 
Steckoll, indicates that the Lisan marl moved under 
the weight of the water in the cistern causing the 
cracking and the cistern's abandonment. 

(Nevertheless there are numerous earthquakes on 
record, though none of them is accredited with having 
changed any topography. And, given the local 
circumstances, with both sites sitting on the edge 
of one plate with the sea between them and the other 
plate, I can't see the attrition necessary to cause 
the changes you find possible between Qumran and Ein 
Feshka.)

...even a minor earthquake
will open paths to permit drainage where previously there were none. 
And when that path does open, it's a dam breaking and you have a local flash
floods until the water level again reaches equilibrium. The fact that humid
periods decrease drastically after ca. 500 CE does not tell us anything
about local conditions during the peaks of the earlier humid periods.

Then, the entire aqueduct/cistern set-up points to expectation of heavy
rainfall during the rainy season at the time of construction. 

Yes. As I said from the wood found in the Roman ramp at 
Masada, there appears to have been 50% more rain during 
the period as compared to the present -- which might 
mean rather than two great down-pours a year there were 
three.

Besides,
it's not the altitude of Ein Feshka that's relevant; it's the height of
any given mountain in the 5 kilometers between Qumran and Ein Feshka that's
relevant and where mountain Y forms a wall and a closed basin for specific
micro-climate 'A' and where mountain Z has a pass and at what height that
forms an open basin feeder system for micro-climate 'B'. There's also the
point that Ein Feshka is an open basin.

This may be interesting theoretically, but have there 
been any signs of drastic change anywhere along the 
western side of the Dead Sea? If there are no signs, 
then why can't I assume that the altitude of Ein 
Feshka is a limit indicator for the height of the sea 
during the life of the Qumran/Ein Feshka settlement?


Ian



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Re: orion-list Onias and the Sons of Zadok

2002-06-16 Thread Ian Hutchesson


Peter Janku wrote:

I don´t think there is any way to date anything (after Antiochus
Epiphanes) on the basis of the mention of the Sons of Zadok.

Thanks for the response, Peter, and sorry for the delay.

We have a problem:

1) Ezekiel knows of the sons of Zadok, but of the rest,
   only mentions the sons of Levi, though I think 40:45-46
   makes a distinction between sons of Zadok and other
   priests, the former in charge of the altar, the latter
   in charge of the temple. (No signs of any sons of Aaron.)

2) 1QS  1QSa know both the sons of Aaron and the sons of
   Zadok, though both give priority to the latter. It's
   worth noting that the same terminology is used in Ezekiel
   and 1QS for the sons of Zadok, based on the verb $mr (to
   keep) in Ezekiel, the sanctuary, in 1QS, the covenant,
   and the notion not following the way of the nation,
   terminology not used for the sons of Aaron.

3) Cave 4 copies of S have no references to the sons of
   Zadok where they are found in 1QS, and it is unlikely that
   they were inserted into the Serekh tradition for 1QS. It
   is more likely that for chronological continuity the sons
   of Zadok were in the earliest layers of Serekh.

Together all this seems to indicate that, while the sons of
Zadok were important before the period of the DSS and
important in the earlier forms of 1QS, that importance is
later eclypsed, ie the eminent place of the sons of Zadok was
lost during the era of the production of the scrolls.

1 Chr 24 in no way relates Zadok to any of the 24 descendent
families of Aaron and there is no intersection between the
lineage from him and any of the Aaronid families.

The major cultic events recorded during this period are that
the Oniad family migrated to Egypt to set up a Jewish temple
at Leontopolis, and that the Hasmonean family took control of
the high priesthood under Simon. These latter originally had
the support of the Pharisees, suggesting that they didn't get
to power in the due course, but needed the help of a non-
priestly group. It was only after the Eleazar affair that the
Sadducees gained the Hasmonean ear. The more conservative
section of the upper class population were ready to give
their support to the Hasmoneans. As all signs we have
indicate that the Sadducees reflected priestly positions and
that the Pharisees didn't, I think it only wise to concluded
that the Hasmoneans didn't originally have much priestly
support, ie they were usurpers (as you hint at: Hence the
probability that Shimon and his brothers weren´t regarded as
Zadokites.).

As the term bny cdwq is apparently never used for the
Sadducees, and that it disappeared from the texts during the
DSS era, there is little hope of connecting the Sadducees to
the sons of Zadok and the two terms do not refer to the same
thing. (The current tendency to use the term Zadokite for
sons of Zadok can only add to the obfuscation of the
significance of bny cdwq, which is obviously a term of
lineage.)

As for the obsessive repetition of the phrase Sons of Zadok

There is no obsessive repetition at all. The sons of Zadok
are found only on the 1QS/Sa/Sb scroll and three times in
cave 4 (4Q163, 4Q174, 4Q266) -- that's not very frequent at
all. It is its lack of use, given the importance which Ezekiel
holds them, which requires explanation.

Remarcable as well are the polemics against the zadokites
(Sadduccees) throughout the Talmud and Tosefta,

bny cdwq are not cdykym. cdyqym appears 23 times in cave 4 and
only twice in cave 1. If by zadokites you mean cdykym, how
do you relate the term to sons of Zadok?

As for Alcimus (AJ) not being of highpriestly stock, this is an
extremely ambigious note, since it may mean anything, from
Alcimus not being a Zadokite, to him not being the son of the
previous Hight Priest as was the custom at that time, to him not
being off aaronite descent.

1 Macc 7:14 has the Hasidaeans saying of Alcimus, A priest of
the line of Aaron ... will not harm us.


Ian


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RE: orion-list Onias and the Sons of Zadok

2002-06-16 Thread David Suter

Ian,

You seem to be thinking along somewhat similar lines to Boccaccini, at
least with regards to the identification of the Sons of Zadok and their
relation to the Maccabees.  Have you taken a look at his Roots of
Rabbinic Judaism?  I put up a post a couple of months ago in which I
commented on it.

David Suter
Saint Martin's College

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Ian Hutchesson
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 11:30 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: orion-list Onias and the Sons of Zadok



Peter Janku wrote:

I don´t think there is any way to date anything (after Antiochus
Epiphanes) on the basis of the mention of the Sons of Zadok.

Thanks for the response, Peter, and sorry for the delay.

We have a problem:

1) Ezekiel knows of the sons of Zadok, but of the rest,
   only mentions the sons of Levi, though I think 40:45-46
   makes a distinction between sons of Zadok and other
   priests, the former in charge of the altar, the latter
   in charge of the temple. (No signs of any sons of Aaron.)

2) 1QS  1QSa know both the sons of Aaron and the sons of
   Zadok, though both give priority to the latter. It's
   worth noting that the same terminology is used in Ezekiel
   and 1QS for the sons of Zadok, based on the verb $mr (to
   keep) in Ezekiel, the sanctuary, in 1QS, the covenant,
   and the notion not following the way of the nation,
   terminology not used for the sons of Aaron.

3) Cave 4 copies of S have no references to the sons of
   Zadok where they are found in 1QS, and it is unlikely that
   they were inserted into the Serekh tradition for 1QS. It
   is more likely that for chronological continuity the sons
   of Zadok were in the earliest layers of Serekh.

Together all this seems to indicate that, while the sons of Zadok were
important before the period of the DSS and important in the earlier
forms of 1QS, that importance is later eclypsed, ie the eminent place of
the sons of Zadok was lost during the era of the production of the
scrolls.

1 Chr 24 in no way relates Zadok to any of the 24 descendent families of
Aaron and there is no intersection between the lineage from him and any
of the Aaronid families.

The major cultic events recorded during this period are that the Oniad
family migrated to Egypt to set up a Jewish temple at Leontopolis, and
that the Hasmonean family took control of the high priesthood under
Simon. These latter originally had the support of the Pharisees,
suggesting that they didn't get to power in the due course, but needed
the help of a non- priestly group. It was only after the Eleazar affair
that the Sadducees gained the Hasmonean ear. The more conservative
section of the upper class population were ready to give their support
to the Hasmoneans. As all signs we have indicate that the Sadducees
reflected priestly positions and that the Pharisees didn't, I think it
only wise to concluded that the Hasmoneans didn't originally have much
priestly support, ie they were usurpers (as you hint at: Hence the
probability that Shimon and his brothers weren´t regarded as
Zadokites.).

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RE: orion-list Talmud citations

2002-06-15 Thread David C. Hindley

George,

I have very little familiarity with Talmud.  And I'm quite
willing to admit it.

Only B.B. 91b on 'Potters' sounds like a Talmud citation.
Yalqut Shim'oni [Midrash] on Jer. 35:12 and Siphre Num 78
on Num. 10:29 are from a class of commentaries called, I
believe, midrash. There are translations of much but not all
of this in print, yet not necessarily all at the same
library at the same time.

Perhaps you could call some local rabbis for help?

Respectfully,

Dave Hindley
Cleveland, Ohio, USA


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Re: orion-list Women at Qumran?

2002-06-14 Thread zangenberg


Dear Mathew, 

I share your caution regarding spindle whorls and fabric fragments as indicators 
for female presence or non-presence in Qumran, for several reasons:

1. Our records on small finds from Qumran are less than insufficient and do not 
allow us to gain a nearly complete picture of what was found and where. So, it is 
impossible at present to determine the exact level of female presence and examine 
a possible gender-related use of space in and around the building at Qumran.

2. Methodologically, I think it is flawed to base an argument (positive or 
negative) on so-called female objects alone. Jodi Magness has recently 
attempted in a paper to show that the lack of female objects from Qumran 
indicates that there was no significant female presence at the site. However, how 
many clear male objects do we have from Qumran (apart from arrow heads etc. 
that are usually attributed to Roman soldiers)? Does that mean that there were no 
men at Qumran? Certainly not! And we should also not forget that most objects 
(ceramics, glass etc.) are neutral or inconclusive in terms of gender 
presence.

3. The question of what object should be termed male or female very much 
depends on gender-related roles and patterns of activity in a given society. 
There are no general rules and one should be careful not to infer anachronistic 
criteria into a past society. I have learnt a lot from reading studies by Miriam 
Peskowitz (esp. her 1993 Duke dissertation The Work of Her Hands. Gendering 
everyday life in Roman-period Judaism in Palestine (70-250 CE), using textile 
production as a case study, later reworked into a book- and her article The 
Gendering of Burial and the Burial of Gender, JQR 4 (1997)) and Tal Ilan (esp. 
her study Bone of My Bone in her book Integrating Women into Second Temple 
History, Tübingen 1999). What we should avoid is the common circular argument: 
because the Qumran-Essenes were celibate (we know that from Pliny and 
Josephus, don't we?) there can be no women at Qumran (and if there were, their 
presence is insignificant) - and because there are no women, the site must have 
been inhabited by celibate Essenes.

4. A final word to the cemetery: Until now 40 individuals from 37 graves have 
been examined according to modern anthropological methods (leaving out Steckoll's 
material). 21 published individuals were sexed as male, 10 as female, among them 
5 children, three were undetermined, one individuum (Q 07) remains disputed. 
Contrary to Joe Zias, I cannot see why I should doubt the expert analyses from my 
German and American colleagues and date the graves in the so-called fringes 
later than the rest, and I find two female individuals (Q 22 and Q 24 II) in the 
main cemetery.
The 21:10 ratio is not exceptional: En el-Ghuweir has 13 male and 6 female 
individuals, the chamber tombs from En Gedi 52 male and 27 female, the Goliath 
tomb in Jericho 15 male and 9 female, the Caiaphas tomb from Talpiyot 14 male and 
9 female (all numbers according to the relevant publications). Beside these 
ratios there are other grave complexes that come more closer to the usual ratio 
of 107,5 males vs. 100 females in pre-industrial societies. The clue is that we 
cannot expect that each grave complex or cemetery always reflects the BIOLOGICAL 
sex ratio. The reasons for that are certainly manyfold: ideology is only one 
factor. So we cannot base our argument about the ideological outlook of a certain 
population on how far the sex-ratio in their funeral material matches the 
biological norm.

To sum up: Until now, I have not seen a convincing argument why Qumran should not 
have been inhabited by women, although we might not be able at present to give an 
exact male-female ratio.

All the best, 

Jürgen


Mathew G. Hamilton schrieb:
 Russell Gmirkin said:
 First, do I recall correctly that others have argued that more than one 
 skeleton in the main cemetery were female or possibly female?  Certainly 
 spindle whorls and fabric fragments at Qumran show a female presence at
 the 
 site.

 Having just read Women's work, the first 20,000 years, women, cloth, and
 society in early times, by Elizabeth Wayland Barber, I am puzzled by
 Russell's comments regarding spindle whorls and fabric fragments at
 Qumran showing a female presence at the site. Perhaps I am missing the
 obvious, but could somebody please explain why spindle whorls and fabric
 fragments are linked to a female presence.

 I am aware that women in the ancient world (and even now) are linked to
 the production of fabric far more than men, but it is not an exclusive
 link, so spindle whorls and fabric  fragments may tell us nothing about
 the presence or otherwise of women at Qumran.

 Matthew Hamilton
 Moore Theological College Library
 1 King St Newtown NSW 2042 Australia
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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orion-list Josephus´lineage

2002-06-14 Thread peter janku

Geoff wrote;
Why does Josephus need to tell us who Matthias
married?  The reason could have been to show how important this ancester
Matthias was?  But was this marriage to a high priest's daughter recognised
by Josephus' ancestors as the route to priesthood?

The answer to the first question seems to me to be the existence at that
time
of a widely respected custom - calling for Cohanim, especially High priests
- to marry daughters of the Cohanim, and not simply Jewish or Levite women.
The very fact of a marriage to a bride of highpriestly descent
became thus a proof of the priestly purity of the ancestors of the groom

Undoubtedly Josephus had to fight numbers of critics after his treason.
The fact that at least some of these critics doubted his claims is no proof
whatsoever for him not being a priest, but a strong indication of the
paramount importance of lineage at the time, shedding light on the
similar obsession in Qumran.

I have found absolutely no trace anywhere of lineages
derived from the mother´s side, which only establishes the Jewishness of
somebody,
but never his levitical or priestly statute.
There is no reason however to doubt the connection
between Priests and the daughters of Rechabim, or viceversa.
Interestingly there is a priestly tradition requiring the Cohanim to avoid
drinking alcohol. This tradition preserved long after the distruction of the
Temple
may have been founded not only on the clear Halachic prohibition regarding
the service in the Temple, but also on the  rechabitic customs recorded by
Jer..

Best regards, Peter Janku

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Re: orion-list Essene cemetery at Jericho?

2002-06-13 Thread Ian Hutchesson


Dear Joe,

Thanks for your response. 

We can agree that Nathan and Haas's sexing was correct and 
we should be able to agree that the remains came from 
Qumran. Now Steckoll published that these bones mainly came 
from north-south graves in the main cemetery. I see no 
a priori reason for Steckoll to write this if it weren't 
true. The bones were of the same stock and bearing the same 
dye stains as those found at Ein el-Ghuweir according to 
what Haas told Bar-Adon. I see very little room for you to 
move regarding your claims about Steckoll's data. It would 
just seem that the data is inconvenient for your theory, so 
it seems that as you are unable to attack it directly, you 
continue to attack the man.


Pliny says what he says. The text has often been manipulated 
by those who support the Essene Hypothesis. I merely point 
out that he doesn't say what those people want him to say. 
I'm not questioning his reliability in the particular matter 
at all. What he says just doesn't help locate Essenes at 
Qumran.

The Lisan Peninsula is very low, as is the land below 
Qumran. It doesn't take much change to cover much of it.
Nevertheless, Qumran is still on the litorral of the Dead 
Sea.

1. Compare the pottery of Qumran, with that of wealthier sites, Masada,
Jericho, Caeseria...at Qumran it's basic, simple and boring, no foreign
wares, no diversity.

Masada was a royal establishment, Jericho a flourishing 
city with royal patronage and Caesaria was a sea port. 
Look at the sites that Hirchfeld mentions.

2. Luxurious living in the style of a manor ?, 

Nobody mentioned luxurious living. Hirschfeld is talking 
about ex-soldiers.

G. You state in your arguments that Qumran is not sectarian whereas you then
suggest that it may have been inhabited by Sadduccees. Are they not
sectarian?

If you want to call the temple establishment a sect, 
then ok.

And, if adults can die, so can children (after they 
make it past the first ten years). (But, it was only 
a passing comment!)

Part of the aqueduct is a tunnel cut through the rock 
of the hills above the site. You are only talking 
about the part that arrived at Qumran. De Vaux 
indicates that there must also have been a catchment 
basin to regulate the flow of water as the quantity 
of water which flowed through Wadi Qumran when it did 
flow far exceeded the capacity of the cisterns.

J. If Qumran was a strategic military site as you state in the first century
BC, then why was it not fortified and why did Herod later not use is as a
military base?

Strategies change. However, the placement of ex-
soldiers in border zones was a policy of making 
those borders more secure.

K. As far as the scrolls in caves 7-9 which are in the site itself, remember
that Josephus wrote that 'neophytes had to swear that they would preserve
the books of the sect

Has anyone ever used the contents of caves 7-9 in a 
discussion of the Essenes? No, not at all. There is 
so little evidence, so few fragments that texts from 
these caves could have been simply been for local 
consumption. They clearly don't reflect anything 
about the rest of the scroll bearing caves. Cave 7 
gaves us mainly tiny Greek fragments, cave  8, tiny 
scraps of Genesis and Psalms, a phylactery, a 
mezuzah and a fragment of a hymn in Hebrew, cave 9 
an unclassified fragment. No arguments can be made 
from this paucity of data.

L. Josephus, wrote that the Essenes followed a way of life taught to the
Greek by Pythagoras (Ant. XV 371) Certain of these aspects, org. into
brotherhoods, community life and common property, modesty appear in the
arch. record of Qumran, part. the cemetery.

Brotherhoods or associations were the vogue in the 
Greek world from the time of Alexander onwards.

As to communal property, I should underline that 
individuals had their own possessions while being 
members of the association outlined in 1QS. See 
1QS 5,16-17, No-one should eat [food of sinners] 
... unless at its price, ie members had money; 
1QS 7,7-10, if someone squanders community wealth 
he shall replace it or be punished for 60 days, 
ie members had possessions; and 1QS 8,21-23, if 
anyone breaks a word of Moses impertinently, he 
will be banished and no-one should associate with 
his goods, ie he had possessions. People have 
been swayed too much by a priori commitments to 
deal with what the text says on this matter.

I think you are making a straw dog out of the 
archaeological record, or at least arguing against 
the villa hypothesis and not that of the manor. The 
archaeological record seems to be consistent with 
the generally modest background of the people 
Hirschfeld indicated probably inhabited the site, 
but one should note the column capitals, some traces 
of fine wares in the pottery assemblage and even 
some traces of what appears to be opus sectile, all 
admitted to by Magness in her article against the 
Donceel villa hypothesis.

And I don't think you have enough data from the 
cemetery -- seeing 

RE: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim

2002-06-13 Thread Geoff Hudson



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Herb Basser
Sent: 30 May 2002 00:56
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim


thanks for the citation-- i now recall george had written me about this
months ago and i saw the passage but forgot about it until geoff brought it
tou our attention again. I'm not sure of all the Yalkut's sources here but
here is what we find:yalkut Jeremiah preserves:  some say their daughters
married priests and
their grandchildren offered sacrifices--

this doesnt make rechabites priests at all--  lineage follows males.
**
I would like to consider Josephus' claims to priesthood and royal descent.
Have you noticed Josephus' tetchy protestations in regard to his ancestry
(somewhat like Paul in the NT)?  He is aware of those who would imply that
he was of inferior descent when he retorts 'so bid adieu to those who
calumniate me,(as of a lower original).'(Life 1).  Here was someone who at
least THOUGHT he was a kosher priest, even if others had doubts.  So what
evidence does Josephus give us in support of his claims? He does say that he
found his genealogy in the public records.  Perhaps that was more than what
many priests of his day could claim. He also says that he is descended all
along from the priests.  One must then ask through which family line does he
make this claim?

According to Life 1, Josephus' grandfather's father had a grandfather
(Josephus omits two generations) who was one Simon Psellus for whom Josephus
makes no claim to fame but only that he lived at the same time (say about
120 BCE) as the high priest and king Hyrcanus I (the son of the high priest
Simon who was the son of Asmoneus).  If Simon Psellus was a priest, then
surely Josephus would at least have said so.

Simon Psellus had nine sons, one of whom was Matthias Ephlias, born say
about 90 BCE.  He married the daughter of the high priest Johnathan the
eldest son of Asmoneus.  Why does Josephus need to tell us who Matthias
married?  The reason could have been to show how important this ancester
Matthias was?  But was this marriage to a high priest's daughter recognised
by Josephus' ancestors as the route to priesthood?  Earlier Josephus says
'for the children of Asmonius FROM whom THAT FAMILY(the priestly family in
which Josephus found himself) WAS DERIVED, had both the office of the high
priesthood and the dignity of a king.' Josephus appears to be pinning his
claim to priesthood to this connection with the line of Asmonius. His claim
to royal descent is not from the line of Asmonius but through his mother who
he says was of 'royal blood' (presumably Herodian, and also possibly
Hasmonean).

To complete the genealogy, in 63 BCE (the first year of the government of
the high priest and ethnarch Hyrcanus II), Matthias Curtus was born to
Matthias Ephlias.  In 28 BCE (the ninth year of the reign of Herod -- the
text has Alexandra), Joseph (Josephus' grandfather) was born to Matthias
Curtus.  In 6 CE (the 10th year of the reign of Archelaus), Matthias
(Josephus' father) was born to Joseph.  In 37 CE, Josephus was born to
Matthias.

So who were Josephus' ancestors back along the male line from Simon Psellus?
I think I can understand now why Paul said (Rom.11.1 ,Phil.3.5) that he was
of the tribe of Benjamin.  The Rechabites came from that tribe which had a
tradition of stealing daughters to take as wives.  Presumably, high priest's
daughter's were fair game and the most prized.  Paul was of Rechabite
origin, as was Josephus.  Both went into the desert for a time to practise
the life -- Josephus with another Rechabite called Banus (or was it
Barnabus, or James as Eisenman suggests?).  Strangely, the NT is silent
about naming Paul's relatives, but he did have Herodian kin living in a
mansion in Rome (Rom.16.10,11), and there are plenty of Rechabite allusions
in his theology.

Geoff









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Re: orion-list Water, Water everywhere... (Was: Essene cemetery atJericho?)

2002-06-13 Thread Rochelle I. Altman

Hi, Ian G

   The Lisan Peninsula is very low, as is the land below
   Qumran. It doesn't take much change to cover much of it.

No, it sure does not... The Dead Sea is a closed basin; all you
need to bring the water level up is a geological humid period.

While the geological record can indicate when a pluvial period (e.g.
ca. 10,000 - 6500 BP -- Noah's flood period was a very heavy continuous
pluvial period) has occurred from the increase or decrease in Lisan-type
deposits (greenish-grey, laminated clay layers), geological records do
not tend towards very narrow time frames. The Noahian flood period was
followed by severe drought, then a moderate pluvial period. The early
Bronze (ca. 4400-4300 BP) occurred near the end of of this moderate
pluvial age... with another severe drought indicated in the record shortly
after we arrive at the Bronze Age.

From then until around 1500 BP (Byzantine culture) the geological record
from the Dead Sea shows fluctuations of various magnitude in the Lisan-
record. The geological record indicates that the period from around the
8th Century BCE (to get off the geochronological Base Period onto more
familiar ground) to 500 CE was a dry period with humid intrusions. The
water level in a closed basin can easily fluctuate 50-60 meters within
a very short time frame. These time spans of humid intrusions cannot be
shown geologically at much closer than about 200-400 years.

If Khirbet Qumran was originally built during the 2nd BCE, then *from
the geological record* it was built smack in the middle of one of those
200-400 year high periods. That a Roman structure shows up 300 years
later only tells us that the Roman structure was built during the
following low period -- which is also recorded in the geological record.

   Nevertheless, Qumran is still on the litorral of the Dead
   Sea.
Yep.
[Snip]

   Part of the aqueduct is a tunnel cut through the rock
   of the hills above the site. You are only talking
   about the part that arrived at Qumran. De Vaux
   indicates that there must also have been a catchment
   basin to regulate the flow of water as the quantity
   of water which flowed through Wadi Qumran when it did
   flow far exceeded the capacity of the cisterns.

Well, if you've ever seen rainfall in a desert climate... flash-flooding
is normal. In fact, the rain fall can be so heavy, that you can _hear_
the rain coming towards you. During heavy rainfall, flood channels 19 feet
deep and 35 feet across will fill to their brim within 2-3 *minutes*. And
while, for example, Scottsdale's green-belt is an open-ended flood control
system resting on a sand base, the Dead Sea is not. It is a closed-basin
resting on a rock base with nowhere for the water to go but up.

Some control over the rate of water flow is built-in to the angles of the
aqueduct (a technique that was already known to the Minoans), but De Vaux
is undoubtedly correct about a catch basin somewhere along the line --
those cisterns would have over-flowed in minutes during a typical seasonal
rainfall without something more to regulate in-flow.

But, then, as I recall, some folks on this list are not too knowledgeable
about water needs for plant or human -- or the differences between a closed
basin and an open one.

Cheers,

Rochelle

PS: Much to my amusement, at a lecture I heard a few weeks ago, there was
this biologist relating how humans need a minimum of 1-1/2 to 2 liters of
water per hour in this climate (Northern Negev... including the Dead Sea)
and that by the time you are thirsty, you are already dehydrated. As they
say in South France, te...
--
Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim

2002-06-13 Thread George Brooks

Dear Geoff:

You quote this text:

I'm not sure of all the Yalkut's sources here but
here is what we find:yalkut Jeremiah preserves:  some say
their daughters married priests and their grandchildren offered
sacrifices--
 
Your reply was:
this doesnt make rechabites priests at all--  lineage follows males.

Well, it would be nice if someone could provide the exact
text to BOTH citations I quote from Eisenman.  For the
2nd citation says that their SONS married the daughters
of the high priests.

So no matter which lineage you want to follow the
male line, or the female line, there is warrant for
priestly descent.


Can anyone provide the FULL texts of BOTH citations?
I'm sure it would help advance the discussion.

George Brooks
Tampa, FL
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Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim

2002-06-13 Thread Jeffrey B. Gibson

George Brooks wrote:

 Can anyone provide the FULL texts of BOTH citations?
 I'm sure it would help advance the discussion.

May I politely suggest, given that it's your interest that you want to see
pursued here, that you be the one to do the leg work on this one?

Surely, Tampa has libraries that have the Mishnah and Talmud?

JG


--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
  Floor 1
Chicago, Illinois 60626
e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim

2002-06-13 Thread Jeffrey B. Gibson

George Brooks wrote:

 Can anyone provide the FULL texts of BOTH citations?
 I'm sure it would help advance the discussion.

May I politely suggest, given that it's your interest that you want to see
pursued here, that you be the one to do the leg work on this one?

Surely, Tampa has libraries that have that Mishnah and Talmud?

JG


--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
  Floor 1
Chicago, Illinois 60626
e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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orion-list Talmud citations

2002-06-13 Thread George Brooks

Here are the exact citations that I seek.
It was included in my email quoting from
Eisenman's book:

 
 Footnote 83:
 See Yalqut Shim'oni [Midrash] on Jer. 35:12, Siphre
 Num 78 on Num. 10:29, and B.B. 91b on 'Potters'
 above.  Also see Eisler, pp 234-45, for a full presentation
 of 'the Saleb'.  [Eisler's discussion of the Solubbim or
 Saleb is really quite interesting!]
 


By the way, Prof. Gibson wrote in response to my
earlier request:

George Brooks wrote:
 Can anyone provide the FULL texts of BOTH citations?
 I'm sure it would help advance the discussion.


May I politely suggest, given that it's your interest that
you want to see pursued here, that you be the one to do
the leg work on this one?  Surely, Tampa has libraries that
have the Mishnah and Talmud?

JG


Prof. Gibson, I will politely respond that I would
prefer someone expert in the Talmud provide a translation
that is acceptable to them so that some tenacious
debater doesn't start attacking my whole discussion
because of the version of Talmud that I might select.

I have very little familiarity with Talmud.  And I'm
quite willing to admit it.

I hope that answers your question.  I promise, I will carry
my weight when it comes to discussing the citations.

George Brooks
Tampa, FL



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orion-list Onias and the Sons of Zadok

2002-06-12 Thread peter janku


First things first.I want to express my unflinching solidarity with our
Israeli colleagues,
currently facing a difficult time.

Ian wrote:
1. If anyone has any light to shed on the Onias/Jason
   problem I would be happy to read it.

2. The distinction between the sons of Zadok and the sons
   of Aaron doesn't seem to have been debated, but I would
   like to hear if there are any bibliographical indications.
   Any comments would be welcome.

3. Does it seem reasonable to list members to use the
   mention of the sons of Zadok for dating purposes?
   (Note, that I make a distinction between sons of Zadok
   and Sadducees, the rump of the priesthood which followed
   older religious traditions and did not adhere to the
   innovations of the Pharisees.)



I don´t think there is any way to date anything (after Antiochus Epiphanes)
on the basis of the mention of the Sons of Zadok .
It seems certain that  the Zadokites where the most powerful clan
within the priesthood - i.e the Sons of Aaron - who were the only leading
group
after the exile and chances are that they remained a fairly influential clan
even after
(herodian)political circumstances determined the change of the system of
highpriestly dinasties.

Whether or not Hasmoneans were Zadokites or not
remains a matter of debate, although the mention
of the first Hasmonean Highpriest saying he will remain in function
until a true profet(?) will arise (if I recall this  correctly) seems to
indicate
that his lineage was not above controversy. Hence the probability that
Shimon and his brothers weren´t regarded as Zadokites.

Anyhow, the problems with the purity of lineage became certainly
worse after Johanan´s Hyrcanus acces to power,
as we know from Josephus, (a Priest-King who was accused
by a Pharisee, Elazar, to usurpe the highpriestly function, since his mother
was said to have been captive before he was born). This incident -and for
that matter Josephus own interpretation  of it -  is interesting
as it denotes how much attention and importance was attached
to the question of lineage throughout  the 2,nd Temple period.
(Remember also the  genealogies  in Qumran).
All this can explain the popping up of a sect of Sadduccees, which
I think, is absolutely rightly connected etimologically, to the sons of
Zadok, as a group claiming the power on religious grounds, after it
had been ousted from it, (or clinging to it despite opposition).
 However, there is nothing, appart from their name to suggest the Sadduccees
succeeded
what no other group did, namely to avoid
succesive defections and schisms.

As for the obsessive repetition of the phrase Sons of Zadok
in the Qumran  manuscripts I think it is logical to assume
that it served both an ideological and a political purpose, being
used against a temple hierarchy dominated by  High priests chosen
arbitrarily,
from a religious point of view, for economic or
political  aims. This points to a rather  late date of the manuscripts.
It may very well be, that the vicious polemic on this issue was ultimately
 the reason  for some extremely controversial appointments such as that of
Pinchas, the
derided last High priest of the Temple, right before its destruction by the
Romans
a man who must certainly have been considered a Zadokite by the Zealots
appointing him after the casting of lots.
Remarcable as well are the polemics against the zadokites (Sadduccees)
 throughout the Talmud and Tosefta, which reminds us a)
of Johanan ben Zakai´s problems with the Zealots not letting him get out of
the besieged Jerusalem and b) the great importance attributed  to fighting
them even at a late date after the destruction of the Temple, when their
practical
significance as a highpriestly class had all but vanished and the return and
rebuiding
had become utterly hypothetical.

As for Alcimus (AJ) not being of highpriestly stock,
this is an extremely ambigious note, since it may mean anything, from
Alcimus
not being a Zadokite, to him not being the son of the previous Hight Priest
as was the custom at that time, to him not being off aaronite descent.

Best regards, Peter Janku


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Re: orion-list Red Ink in Qumran Scrolls

2002-06-12 Thread Rochelle I. Altman

Tyler,

On the use of red ink in Antiquity, a very good source is: Anne F.
Robertson, Word Dividers, Spot Markers and Clause Markers in Old
Assyrian, Ugaritic, and Egyptian Texts. Diss. NYU, November 1993.
(Chuck Jones mentioned it some years ago with respect to the use
of red inks in the DSS. As the ca. 10th-9th BCE Phoenician texts
use dots as a three point punctuation system in a refinement of the
Ugaritic bar and dot system... A public thanks, Chuck, for bringing
the diss to my attention.)

A few Qumran scrolls have some writing in red ink on them (e.g.,
4QNum-b, 2QPs), and in most cases their editors plausibly suggest
   that  this may indicate a liturgical function (see, e.g., DJD XII,
   p. 211 for  4QNum-b).

I was wondering if the use of red ink could additionally suggest
   that  the scroll was not intended to be a biblical scroll, but
   was a text  copied for expressly liturgical functions? (if such a
   distinction can be  made)

[Snip]
From my own research, there is a slight possiblity that colored graphs
in late-antique docs could indicate musical directions; however...
while musical notes as colors are discussed back in the 6th BCE (and
undoubtedly also date back to the 24th BCE), no hard evidence for
musical color-notation in liturgical use shows up until the 5th CE.
More likely, from what I saw when I was examining the DJD, these color
uses appear to be an adaption of xenographic exchange. The exchange
technique also dates back to Antiquity -- to the reign of Sargon I of
Sumer and Akkad to be exact. Particularly good examples of the usual
exchange technique appear in 11QPs; as exchange indicates the distinction
between the transcendent and the mundane realms, and continued to indicate
this distinction between realms centuries after the printing press appeared,
its much later (ca. 10th CE) Christian use as *specifically* a liturgical
or religious technique instead of the previous use of indicating, for example,
a ruler acting in a transcendent role rather than a mundane role, tells us
nothing about a liturgical function in the DSS.

   The basis of my query is mMeg 2.2 where
   red ink/dye [SQR)] is  prohibited for use on biblical scrolls:
If it were written with paint, or with red dye [SQR)], or with
   resin,  or with copperas, on paper or on partially prepared hide,
   he has not  performed his duty, unless it is written in Hebrew on
   parchment and with  ink [DYW]. mMeg 2.2

Obviously one problem with my reasoning is that it is
   anachronistic,  applying later Jewish tradition to the Qumran
   scrolls. But in my own  defense, Tov has demonstrated that many of
   the latter rabbinic  guidelines for scroll preparation and copying
   appear to have been  followed with the Qumran scrolls (e.g., his
   article on the dimensions of  the scrolls).

While your reasoning is sound, scripts, sizes, and formats are tightly
bound to cultural identity. The battle over the Jewish ethnic script
was only settled in the 2nd-3rd CE. You also can see a table giving the
breakdown of some of the more important sizes and formats in use around
the turn of the common era in that on-line lecture of mine on the Writing
World of the DSS at St. Andrews... (unless Jim has set-up a direct link,
the link is all the way down at the bottom of the syllabus page under
Qumran.) Unfortunately, the culturally determined continuity of the scroll
dimensions precludes their use as guidelines for other aspects.

Among other (but not limited to) telling arguments against the use of
later prescriptions as a guide are the adoption by the early Christians
of both xenographic exchange and colored inks for religious texts. In
addition, we have Greek and Latin script-systems that incorporate graph-
models that appear in the DSS and on BCE Judean coins. All these show
that the early Christians followed existing Jewish models. Together, these
features do make it anachronistic to use later directions about the use
of color to apply to the DSS.

Hope this helps,

Rochelle
--
Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: orion-list Essene cemetery at Jericho?

2002-06-12 Thread zias

Dear Ian,

Shalom, in relation to your  June 10th posting (below) I would like to
clarify the following:

A. You write that denying public access to scrolls was the practice until
the 90's is not entirely accurate in that public access was only denied to
that which was unpublished material only. This is the norm in archaeology
designed to protect the interests of those working on the material however
once material has been published in any form whatsoever,  then public access
is granted. In my 25 years as a museum curator, access to anthropological
and other archaeological material was never denied to researchers as has
been done with some of the Qumran skeletal material.

B. As for Professor Natan's sexing of the material 'excavated' by Steckoll,
I have no problem with Natan's findings, the issue here is the weight that
one gives to material which was excavated by a journalist, lack of field
diaries, photos, ect, not to mention his lack of experience. Thus, the
material lacks any scientific value. Secondly, his selling of antiquities
from the site suggest that he was more interested in digging for grave goods
which could later be reold, which could be found in the Bedouin graves with
their jewelery, beads etc. His 'excavation' in the Kidron Valley Jeruslaem,
looking for treasures from the Copper Scroll appear to belie this assertion.
as well as sale of objects from the Qumran to a museum.

C. You mention that Pliny is of no help whereas you city Pliny in your
defense of Ein-Gedi. When is he accurate, reliable?

D. You mention that the water level of the Dead Sea was higher during Qumran
times, and use the Madaba map for proof. Very difficult to accept for the
following reasons
1. Madaba map was made in the 6th century, 500 years after Qumran was
abandoned and we know that the level of the Dead Sea varies considerably
from time to time. The PEF showed that the water level of the Dead Sea was
tens of meters above Ain Feshka in the late 19th century.
2. Today one can plainly see at the northern end of the Dead Sea  a
Roman fortress which could not have been built under water in the Roman
period.
3. You cite reports on wood from the ramp in Masada showing that
rainfall was higher whereas the wood in the ramp came from the Hebron area
far to the west and ca 900 meters higher than Masada.

In short, the Dead Sea was far from the Qumran not close, as you suggest.

E. Over the past few weeks you argue in favor of the manor hypothesis and
write that there is nothing at the site of Qumran to suggest ascetic
living  In response I would argue the following
1. Compare the pottery of Qumran, with that of wealthier sites, Masada,
Jericho, Caeseria...at Qumran it's basic, simple and boring, no foreign
wares, no diversity.
2. Luxurious living in the style of a manor ?, where are the mosaics,
frescos, luxury goods? Wish to see luxury in the style of manorial living,
check out the Jewish Qtr. in Jerusalem.

F. As for terminology, Manual of Discipline, depends of one's source, seems
that there is no consensous Vermes uses Community Rule whereas Schuller in
1994 uses The Rule of the Congregation. Whatever one uses 'your suggestion
that it comes from Christian monasticism may be wide of the mark as ther
term was coined by one or two Methodists decades ago. To my knowledge
Methodists are not associated with monasticism.

G. You state in your arguments that Qumran is not sectarian whereas you then
suggest that it may have been inhabited by Sadduccees. Are they not
sectarian?

H. You write that if Qumran was Essene there would be children in the
cemetery This is one of those areas whereby one has to have some knowledge
of phy. anthro.which is why some people may have trouble understanding the
arguments.  We know that the Essenes adopted children into their community
and  here lies the demographic bias as well as supporting my thesis that the
cem. is that of celibate males. When one looks at mortality data one sees
two peaks, one from birth to ca 10 years and then another one after and
during the 30's. If an individual makes it to 10-12 years then the chances
of dying in ones teens are slim, which explains the total lack of
individuals (except one I believe) in this category. Furthermore, we know
that 'men of ripe age' were in the community thus further proof that we are
dealing with adult, celibate males. The fact that one individual is 14, i.e
past Bar Matzva age when one becomes a man does not present any problem.

I. As for aqueducts requiring state or royal planning, true if it's a place
like Caeseria, but the one at Qumran would def. not require much of any
effort, it's simply a stone lined water channel dug in the ground. It's
about as low tech/no-tech as one can get. In fact the term aqueduct may be
inappropiate is it suggests, arches, monumental state construction,  all of
which are unnecessary in Qumran. It's simply a water channel coming down
from the hills.

J. If Qumran was a strategic military 

RE: orion-list Philo's text _De specialibus legibus_ (on line)

2002-06-12 Thread Suter, David

Gabriel,

Check http://www.torreys.org/bible/philopag.html#texts for a web page that lists 
what's available online regarding Philo.  It doesn't appear to me, however, that 
you're going to find _De specialibus legibus_.

David Suter
Saint Martin's College

 -Original Message-
 From: Gabriel GOLEA [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 3:12 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: orion-list Philo's text _De specialibus legibus_ (on line) 
 
 
 Dear List Members,
 
 Could anyone indicate me a Web page with the Philo's text: 
 _De specialibus 
 legibus_ (on line)?
 
 Thank you in advance,
 
 Gabriel
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 *
 
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RE: orion-list Philo's text _De specialibus legibus_ (on line)

2002-06-12 Thread Suter, David

One short correction:  the Greek text of _De specialibus legibus_ is availible in an 
electronic version (but not online) on the TLG CD-ROM.  The CD is, however, pricey, 
and requires a separate program in order to read it.

David Suter
Saint Martin's College
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orion-list Onias son of Onias

2002-06-11 Thread Ian Hutchesson


In the perennial search to understand why sons of Zadok are 
mentioned in the scrolls at all, I was reading Jeremias, 
Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus, when I came across his 
reading of the Zadokite return to Jerusalem at the time of 
Menelaus. Jeremias is insistent that it was not Jason who 
recaptured Jerusalem but Onias son of the high priest Onias 
III, despite AJ 12,5,1 and 2 Macc 5. He argues, amongst 
other things, that the life of the temple at Leontopolis 
given by Josephus as 343 years at its destruction in 73 CE 
-- which is obviously wrong -- should read 243 years, 
putting its foundation by Onias at 170/169 BCE. He also 
cites BJ 1,1 (1.31) in which Onias, one of the high 
priests got the better and cast the sons of Tobias out of 
the city as evidence that it was Onias (for me, Onias IV 
-- Jeremias uses different numbering, Onias III), and not 
Jason, who took the city from Menelaus. (Jeremias accuses 
Josephus of having muddied the waters to preserve the high 
priestly line from any irregularity -- though he is 
silent over 2 Macc 5.) If he is right, this puts the 
departure of the Onias and his family in 169 BCE, ie before 
the persecution of Antiochus IV.

The importance of all this is that I take the high priestly 
family of Onias to have been the sons of Zadok. (There is 
some conflict over the status of Alcimus, who 2 Macc 14:3 
says was a former high priest and AJ 12,9,7 says was not 
of the high priest stock.) While the sons of Zadok were 
theoretically sons of Aaron -- just as the sons of Aaron 
were theoretically sons of Levi -- 1QSa seems to make a 
sufficient distinction between the sons of Zadok, who were 
at the head of the community council of Israel, while the 
sons of Aaron had authority over the sons of Levi, the sons 
of Zadok apparently had authority over all Israel.

The mention of the sons of Zadok in 1QS, 1QSa and 1QSb 
would seem to date those texts very early. It would 
therefore not be strange to see neither 1QSa nor 1QSb 
represented in cave 4, and the fragments of 1QS have the 
references to the sons of Zadok removed.

1. If anyone has any light to shed on the Onias/Jason 
   problem I would be happy to read it.

2. The distinction between the sons of Zadok and the sons 
   of Aaron doesn't seem to have been debated, but I would
   like to hear if there are any bibliographical indications.
   Any comments would be welcome.

3. Does it seem reasonable to list members to use the 
   mention of the sons of Zadok for dating purposes?
   (Note, that I make a distinction between sons of Zadok 
   and Sadducees, the rump of the priesthood which followed 
   older religious traditions and did not adhere to the 
   innovations of the Pharisees.)


Ian


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orion-list Reminder

2002-06-11 Thread Orion List Owner



This Sunday there are a series of seminars some of you may be interested
in.


ON THE BOUNDARY LINE BETWEEN TEXT AND LITERARY CRITICISM
(in the presence of Professor Alexander Rofe)
10:00am - 5:00pm, Sunday, 16 June, 2002
Conference Hall, Kreitman Building
Ben Gurion University of the Negev, Beer Sheva


...Orion-List Moderator.


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