Re: orion-list Re: Definition of Essenes

2002-01-08 Thread Dierk van den Berg


- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 4:56 AM
Subject: Re: orion-list Re: Definition of Essenes


 Greg,
 
   Very good. Can you say something about these Essenes
   of your definition that goes beyond tautology ('Essenes
   are the ones Josephus calls Essenes')? Can you attempt
   to define the term without using the term itself in the
   definition?

Is that a public thread or a semi-private discourse?
NB I have found my copy of Bergmeier.

Dierk


For private reply, e-mail to Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the
message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web
site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
(PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)



Re: orion-list Re: Definition of Essenes

2002-01-08 Thread peter janku


Dear George,

things seem to be extremely complicated concerning the distinction between
the three groups
(maybe four? maybe dozens, to speak with
Johanan ben Zakai, who attributes the fall of Jerusalem to sectarian
divisions).

Communal life for instance
is characteristic not only for the   Essenes as described by Philo and
Josephus,
but also, in a sense, for the Haverim, belonging to the Pharisaic group.
The Zadokites, against whom much of the polemic of the Rabbis
and the NT is directed - are they only the resurrection- and/or- the- oral-
Torah -denying group known through
the Greek transliteration as the Sadducees or do they include Essenes as
well?
If the authors of the scrolls found in Qumran included Essenes, than this
should be the case.
The point is, I think, to reconstitute the puzzle
and gain a dynamic image of the progressive divisions of  the postexilic
Jewish society,
starting with the dispute of Esra-Nehemiah with intermarriage, priests that
can´t prove their origin
and the Samaritans
and ending with the expansions of Christianity in theHellenistic  world.
What the definition of Essenes  is concerned, my guess is that we have to go
back to the time
Josephus ( clearly an Essene sympathizers, if not a  member of a group that,
as we´are told
included married people) says things started to go wrong with the
highpriestly  institution.
This should take us back even to times long before the Hasmonean era, which
brought about another dissidence of
priests deriving their descendance from Zaddok. Understanding the priestly
impact on the Judean society of
the first postexilic times (and its political and ideological context) seems
to me to be essential in explaining the various divisions
taking place throughout the second temple period.
Methodoligically, I agree with you that we should concentrate mnore on
probabilities than on absolute - and as such inexistant -certanties.
Peter Janku


For private reply, e-mail to peter janku [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the
message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web
site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
(PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)



Re: orion-list Re: Definition of Essenes (Suidas)

2002-01-07 Thread RGmyrken

As a follow-up to my last posting, I did some research on-line and found 
a translation of John Cassian (http://www.osb.org/lectio/cassian/index.html). 
 Much of the Institutes is obviously based on Philo's Therapeutae, but there 
is no mention of Rechabites, and Cassian only (incorrectly) traced Egyptian 
monasticism to Mark's church founded in Egypt.  I note that in The 
Conferences 21.4 he extols the Rechabites as a group that went beyond the 
requirements of the law.  So there was praise of the Rechabites among 
Christian ascetics of c. 400 CE.  I suspect that some church father of the 
period 400-1000 CE made the full connection and claimed that Christian 
asceticism descended from the Rechabites by way of the therapeutae.  But 
Patristic literature in not my forte, so I will end my imput on the 
Rechabites in the Suda with that suggestion.

Best regards,
Russell Gmirkin
For private reply, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the
message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web
site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
(PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)