[ozmidwifery] homebirth article

2006-02-03 Thread jo








FYI



Jo





Special delivery
for mums

Author: Danielle
Teutsch
Date: 02/02/2006
Words: 824
Source: SMH







Publication: Sydney
Morning Herald
Section: Health  Science
Page: 6



Giving birth at home is
slowly shedding its hippie image, writes Danielle Teutsch. 

Something radical is happening at St George Hospital in Kogarah. The
hospital is offering homebirth as
an option for expectant mums. Not only does NSW Health approve, it is footing
the bill for insurance. 

For the past decade, homebirth
has been depicted as unsafe hippie nonsense, and the numbers of women doing it
have fallen accordingly. 

The 2003 Mothers and Babies report found 0.2 per cent of women gave
birth at home, and overall numbers had fallen from 182 to 132 in a five-year
period. 

The number is miniscule, admits Associate Professor Nicky Leap, area director of midwifery practice.
It has had an alternative image, associated with an alternative
lifestyle, she says. 

There is still a small but significant group of women who want to give
birth without medical intervention, she says. Until now, their options have
been limited unless they were prepared to pay up to $5000 for a private
midwife. Some women were also reported to be freebirthing - having
babies at home without medical support. 

Independent midwives the world over are not able to get
insurance, she says. But homebirth
with hospital back-up should be an option for all low-risk women. 

The homebirth outreach
program at St George is the culmination of a decade of lobbying by the hospital
and midwifery groups - the NSW Government was finally convinced that the
program would satisfy safety standards. 

The program started taking bookings in May last year and has had its
first birth. About three women each month are using the service, says St George
Hospital's head of women's and children's health, Dr Greg Davis - and the
number is expected to rise. 

The program has not been introduced at St George by accident. Unlike in
some other maternity wards, where turf wars have been conducted
between midwives and obstetricians, the two groups work in harmony at St
George. 

Davis, who also works in private obstetrics, says he cannot understand
why his fellow obstetricians make such a fuss about homebirth. My colleagues are very
suspicious of this, he says. They are worried about safety, but
midwifery-led care at home is the same as having a baby in a birth
centre. 

Davis
says fears about homebirth, such
as increased risk of perinatal death and neonatal respiratory difficulty, have
been overstated. 

Obstetricians worry about unavoidable complications that may be
life threatening such as prolapse and post-partum hemorrhaging. But if you take
that argument to its logical conclusion, it means someone can only deliver in a
tertiary unit with intensive care - which is totally impractical, he
says. 

He points to a US
study, published in the British Medical Journal, the largest to date on homebirth, which found it was no less safe
than giving birth in a hospital. Only 12 per cent of women in the study were
moved to hospital, with a quarter of the cases for urgent reasons, and the rest
for non-urgent reasons such as fatigue and lack of progress. 

Professor Caroline Homer, director of the Centre for Midwifery and
Family Health at UTS, says women are carefully screened before they are
admitted to the homebirth program
to make sure they are low-risk patients, according to guidelines developed by
the Australian College of Midwives. Each birth is
attended by two midwives equipped to deal with medical emergencies; and there
are protocols for transferring to a hospital if necessary. 

BIRTH NEAR KITCHEN TOASTED WITH CHAMPERS AND CAKE 

For her first pregnancy, Narelle Batterham, 34, went to a private
hospital with an obstetrician. Her doctor was on holidays when she delivered so
another obstetrician was brought in, who insisted she give birth while on her
back. 

It was not a position I would have chosen, Batterham says.
In hindsight, I could have said no, but not being confident, I just let
it go. 

When she became pregnant again, her obstetrician's fees had doubled, so
she booked into the birth centre at St George Hospital. I liked the idea
I would be seen by the same midwives all the way through, so I wouldn't have a
stranger when I gave birth. I had a water birth there and it was an excellent
experience. 

For her third child she decided to have a homebirth, as part of the St George Hospital outreach program,
confident that the hospital was nearby if there was an emergency. 

It's been a natural progression. In my head I was treating it as
if I was in a birth centre, Batterham says. 

She planned to use her spa bath at home during labour. But her labour
progressed so quickly that she gave birth on a mattress in an open area near
the kitchen, assisted by two midwives who arrived just in time. It was so
hot, and that was an area that was air-conditioned, she says. 

Her daughters, 

RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

2006-02-03 Thread Dean Jo
Title: Message



I 
think it is ESSENTIAL for midwives and consumer groups to be working together on 
this one. Amazingly enough, many complaints we hear about are from women 
who feel their midwife let them down. Interesting issue (as I am a doula 
also, perception and expectation of support is of great interest). 


Most 
would agree with the fragmented care currently offered there is a huge reliance 
on trusting someone who has just walked in the door. anyone caring for a 
woman tries to do their best; but their best may not correspond with the woman's 
needs, even the 'nicest' midwife can upset someone unintentionally. where 
does the accountability lie? bit tricky there...probably too hard to 
define: but it doesn't remove the fact that some woman is feeling like 
shit.

I 
think it is important for midwives and doctors (if they would ever listen) to 
listen to the trauma experienced by women. From experience I can say that 
MY perception of a particular birth was it was positive: but to the woman is was 
shit. Care providers need to base their post birth care on not what 
defines positive to them, but what defines positive to each individual 
womanso easy in this system! NOT.

I wish 
that one particular person who posted on Janet's Accessing Artimise list would 
give me permission to paste some of her recent post about the grief she felt 
postnatally.over a year later. To exploit her pain would be adding to 
her grief: but her words are so powerful, it is heart breaking. 

Trauma 
after birth effects so many and there seems to be little being done to minimize 
it. Bugger all beingdone to acknowledge it. passing the sense of 
responsibility on to others seems to be the way.

The 
'head in the sand', 'too hard basket', 'total denial', 'my hands are tied' 
mentality has to stop soon before birth trauma claims more than a woman's 
soul. 

I am 
deeply concerned about the lack of information provided by participants of this 
list (a deep source of supportive woman focused care providers) o the topic of 
post cs support. From a consumers perspective: if people like yourselves 
cant offer up strategies to minimize trauma after cs, then what are we to 
do? It doesn't bode well.

no 
disrespect intended. I value and hold all active members of this list - 
however as a consumer it is my right and my role to point out weakness. 
birth trauma is a huge weakness that needs to be dealt with.The 
ideals of one on one midwifery should not be seen as the solution to current 
trauma. yes it will hopefully reduce the trauma of future women, but for 
those who birth today...there is stuff all except isolationnot what they 
need.

I was 
hoping to hear multitudes of posts sharing the methods of supporting and 
educating women about cs birth: information on post cs care: methods of 
debriefing that does more than shift blame: words of wisdom about how we as a 
society are caring for our future.

*sigh* 

love 
Jo

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet 
  FraserSent: Friday, February 03, 2006 2:58 PMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  Speaking as someone who 
  helps pick up the pieces after these scenarios, this is what I offer as a 
  starting point:
  http://www.joyousbirth.info/articles/dealingtraumaticbirth.html
  As well as a pamphlet on 
  PTSD symptoms, and one for partners on how to support a traumatised 
  woman.
  
  The various groups I run 
  offer peer support and accurate birthing information. We encourage women to 
  seek their birth records and go through them with a disinterested party, to 
  look at the reasons why they made choices which put them in more vulnerable 
  positions, and provide resouces with how to make more nurturing choices next 
  time - provided it's not an emergency hysterectomy as that's a whole other 
  kettle of fish. We offer contacts for groups and counselling in each state, 
  where they exist.
  : )
  J
  I'll be interested to see 
  what those closer to the coalface are offering to consumers as well. It would 
  be neat to work in concert!
  --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by 
  AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/249 - Release 
  Date: 2/2/2006


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/249 - Release Date: 2/2/2006
 


Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

2006-02-03 Thread Janet Fraser
Title: Message



Jo, you're speaking from my 
heart as well. I was at a meeting last year of women working to support others 
in birth trauma. All of us had been suicidal at one point, myself included, none 
of us had had any support from careproviders.
I'm always happy to share my 
journey but it rarely scores a comment on ozmid. What this means I cannot judge 
but it makes me fear for other women in my position if we can't talk about it 
with careproviders. It's not about blame, it's about responsibility for our 
actions as consumers and a hope that our careproviders will also take 
responsibility for their actions. We really need everyone to be be truly "with 
woman" on this one, not with protocol and not with status quo.
J

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Dean 
   Jo 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:43 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  
  I 
  think it is ESSENTIAL for midwives and consumer groups to be working together 
  on this one. Amazingly enough, many complaints we hear about are from 
  women who feel their midwife let them down. Interesting issue (as I am a 
  doula also, perception and expectation of support is of great interest). 
  
  
  Most 
  would agree with the fragmented care currently offered there is a huge 
  reliance on trusting someone who has just walked in the door. anyone 
  caring for a woman tries to do their best; but their best may not correspond 
  with the woman's needs, even the 'nicest' midwife can upset someone 
  unintentionally. where does the accountability lie? bit tricky 
  there...probably too hard to define: but it doesn't remove the fact that some 
  woman is feeling like shit.
  
  I 
  think it is important for midwives and doctors (if they would ever listen) to 
  listen to the trauma experienced by women. From experience I can say 
  that MY perception of a particular birth was it was positive: but to the woman 
  is was shit. Care providers need to base their post birth care on not 
  what defines positive to them, but what defines positive to each individual 
  womanso easy in this system! NOT.
  
  I 
  wish that one particular person who posted on Janet's Accessing Artimise list 
  would give me permission to paste some of her recent post about the grief she 
  felt postnatally.over a year later. To exploit her pain would be 
  adding to her grief: but her words are so powerful, it is heart 
  breaking. 
  Trauma after birth effects so many and there seems to be little being 
  done to minimize it. Bugger all beingdone to acknowledge it. 
  passing the sense of responsibility on to others seems to be the 
  way.
  
  The 
  'head in the sand', 'too hard basket', 'total denial', 'my hands are tied' 
  mentality has to stop soon before birth trauma claims more than a woman's 
  soul. 
  
  I am 
  deeply concerned about the lack of information provided by participants of 
  this list (a deep source of supportive woman focused care providers) o the 
  topic of post cs support. From a consumers perspective: if people like 
  yourselves cant offer up strategies to minimize trauma after cs, then what are 
  we to do? It doesn't bode well.
  
  no 
  disrespect intended. I value and hold all active members of this list - 
  however as a consumer it is my right and my role to point out weakness. 
  birth trauma is a huge weakness that needs to be dealt with.The 
  ideals of one on one midwifery should not be seen as the solution to current 
  trauma. yes it will hopefully reduce the trauma of future women, but for 
  those who birth today...there is stuff all except isolationnot what they 
  need.
  
  I 
  was hoping to hear multitudes of posts sharing the methods of supporting and 
  educating women about cs birth: information on post cs care: methods of 
  debriefing that does more than shift blame: words of wisdom about how we as a 
  society are caring for our future.
  
  *sigh* 
  
  love 
  Jo
  

-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet 
FraserSent: Friday, February 03, 2006 2:58 PMTo: 
ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
support
Speaking as someone who 
helps pick up the pieces after these scenarios, this is what I offer as a 
starting point:
http://www.joyousbirth.info/articles/dealingtraumaticbirth.html
As well as a pamphlet on 
PTSD symptoms, and one for partners on how to support a traumatised 
woman.

The various groups I run 
offer peer support and accurate birthing information. We encourage women to 
seek their birth records and go through them with a disinterested party, to 
look at the reasons why they made choices which put them in more vulnerable 
positions, and provide resouces with how to make more nurturing choices next 
time - provided it's not an emergency hysterectomy as 

Re: [ozmidwifery] nice story....

2006-02-03 Thread Janet Fraser



I'm glad there was someone to 
"deliver" her baby. Sigh. Don't women give birth?
Cute otherwise ; 
)
J

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Steve 
   Janine Clark 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 9:21 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] nice 
  story
  
  
  Farm birth nothing to kid 
  aboutCarla Danaher03feb06MANY four-legged kids have been born at Collingwood 
  Children's Farm, but never a two-legged one . . . until 
  now.Brunswick woman Nicole Allard gave birth to Saskia under a peppercorn tree at the farm on Sunday 
  afternoon. 
  A baby 
  goat born at the farm later that day has been named Saskia in her honour. 
  
  Nicole 
  and her partner Julian Elliott, both doctors, were on a family outing with 
  their two children when the 36-year-old went into labour. 
  
  They had 
  been aid workers in Cambodia for the past three years. 
  
  The pair 
  only returned home to Melbourne so they could have their baby in a local 
  hospital, not knowing she would be born at a farm instead. 
  
  But, 
  after trying to walk to her car, Nicole knew she wasn't going to make it to 
  the hospital in time. 
  After 
  farm staff fetched towels and cordoned off the area, Julian delivered his 
  daughter under a peppercorn tree, with their children watching on. 
  
  "It was 
  beautiful to have a child outside," Nicole said. 
  "The 
  thing I'm most relieved about is that I delivered there and not one of the 
  other places I was last week, like 
  Federation 
  Square." 
  Mother 
  and baby are doing well, with Saskia a healthy 
  3.5kg. 
  Collingwood Children's Farm assistant manager Frank 
  Palomares said the happy event came as quite a shock 
  to staff. 
  "Our 
  farmers are trained to deliver animals, but not humans," he said. 
  
  


RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

2006-02-03 Thread adamnamy
Title: Message








On the
subject of traumatized womenmy two cents



When I
was 22 and pregnant for the first time, I had an innate fear, more like terror
really of going to hospital for the birth. I dont know what drove me
to so actively avoid a hospital birth but I just knew that it would be an
experience that triggered feelings of being assaulted and overpowered. It
was my during my booking visit when the male doctor lifted my dress and casually
remarked Im just going to feel your breasts now that I realized
how disempowered all women are in this process-one which belongs to them
ironically enough! I saw the midwife cringing in the corner, feeling
acutely aware of his insensitivities but speechless and feeling powerless to act
in my defense. He (the doctor) just seemed to have no idea that you
actually need to get permission from a person before you cross into their
private spaces, and that something of a respectful rapport is useful (he had
spent the previous 10 minutes chastising me for my fear of needles and sternly telling me that I had no
choice about having blood tests for this and that reason. But back
to the carefree hands bitI sat bolt upright and said no your not
I decided then and there that I didnt not want any interference
because it was inherently disempowering and the doctors attitude patronizing.
I knew I needed encouragement, nurturing, information and most of all, for the
experience to transform me I needed a healing birth experience. Any woman
who has experienced sexual trauma (and lets face itthats a
lot of us!) will always need gentle handling. The tiny snippet of hospital
based care I saw was definitely not that!



Now
when I listen to mainstream birthing women talk about birth, I
hear the language of submission. My ob decided such and such
or they told me I had to.. or they made me birth on
my back. It is always something being done to her;
she rarely describes herself as the active participant. It actually makes
me feel sick to hear it. By and large women just arent making
their own choices and most of the time I suspect they are not supported by partners,
doctors or even midwives when they do. When are we all going
to realize that the choices made on our behalf, about our bodies and our babies
are sometimes made by someone with conflicting interests, a different agenda
and really bad, archaic research to back it up? My experience of
hospitals (and I work in one as a nurse, not midwifeyet) is that often we
nurses still dont have the confidence to challenge the old medical
dinosaur. Women need good information and solid back-up from their
midwives (I know that I am preaching to the converted here). And midwives need
to do that boldly, shamelessly and confidently, or we give women the idea that
it is naughty to have a different view, or to challenge the
status quo. Had the midwife I spoke of earlier had the guts to say pull
the doctor up on his insensitivity at the time (do they hesitate to tell us
when they think we have erred?) I may have had more confidence in the
system. But as it turned out my choice was a good one and the older I get
the more convinced I become that the machine we call maternity care
is not care at all. We might as well call them baby
factory units because the reality is; they are more like factories than
places where women are cared for holistically.



The
changes that we are seeking here have boundaries that stretch far beyond the
walls of any maternity unit. We women still face sexism in a multitude of ways
that we either try to ignore or pretend dont exist. However this
has to be one of the crucial battlefields for women in the recovery of their autonomy
and freedom. It will take a long timebut I am prepared to see it
through. And in the mean time I recommend independent midwives and
homebirth to any one inspired by my beautiful, healing homebirth. Some
times I hesitate to tell my story because it must appear blissfully utopian in
contrast to some womens experiences. But maybe those traumatized women
want to hear that such a birth is possible, so I tell it as plainly and gently
as I can-always hopeful that they might have the confidence in themselves,
their bodies and their babies to birth without interference next time. 



Amy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Janet Fraser
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006
8:30 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs
support







Jo, you're
speaking from my heart as well. I was at a meeting last year of women working
to support others in birth trauma. All of us had been suicidal at one point,
myself included, none of us had had any support from careproviders.





I'm always happy
to share my journey but it rarely scores a comment on ozmid. What this means I
cannot judge but it makes me fear for other women in my position if we can't
talk about it with careproviders. It's not about blame, it's about
responsibility for our actions as 

Re: [ozmidwifery] nice story....

2006-02-03 Thread jesse/jayne



How about the dad in Melbourne yesterday morning 
that delivered his baby in the back of the car?! My kids were 
listening to the news on the radio and my youngest said "WOW!! A MAN HAD A 
BABY!"

Jayne



  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Janet 
  Fraser 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:31 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] nice 
  story
  
  I'm glad there was someone 
  to "deliver" her baby. Sigh. Don't women give birth?
  Cute otherwise ; 
  )
  J
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Steve 
 Janine Clark 
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 9:21 
PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] nice 
story


Farm birth nothing to kid 
aboutCarla Danaher03feb06MANY four-legged kids have been born at Collingwood 
Children's Farm, but never a two-legged one . . . until 
now.Brunswick woman Nicole Allard gave birth to Saskia under a peppercorn tree at the farm on Sunday 
afternoon. 
A baby 
goat born at the farm later that day has been named Saskia in her honour. 

Nicole 
and her partner Julian Elliott, both doctors, were on a family outing with 
their two children when the 36-year-old went into labour. 

They 
had been aid workers in Cambodia for the past three years. 

The 
pair only returned home to Melbourne so they could have their baby in a 
local hospital, not knowing she would be born at a farm instead. 

But, 
after trying to walk to her car, Nicole knew she wasn't going to make it to 
the hospital in time. 
After 
farm staff fetched towels and cordoned off the area, Julian delivered his 
daughter under a peppercorn tree, with their children watching on. 

"It was 
beautiful to have a child outside," Nicole said. 

"The 
thing I'm most relieved about is that I delivered there and not one of the 
other places I was last week, like 
Federation 
Square." 
Mother 
and baby are doing well, with Saskia a healthy 
3.5kg. 
Collingwood Children's Farm assistant manager Frank 
Palomares said the happy event came as quite a 
shock to staff. 
"Our 
farmers are trained to deliver animals, but not humans," he said. 




[ozmidwifery] Wish me luck...

2006-02-03 Thread Jo Watson
Well, after nine months on maternity leave, my finances (and my  
husband!) have told me it is time to do some casual shifts at work.   
This morning is my first one.  I am just doing a 6 hour shift, and my  
husband will bring my 8 month old, Will, to work for me at 10am for a  
feed. :)  (these are the benefits of working in a 'baby friendly'  
hospital...)


I am a little nervous!  Being a hospital based Midwife, having had a  
wonderful babymoon after an awesome homebirth - I wonder if I will be  
any different as a Midwife??  We'll see.


There is a great discussion on 'Extended Breastfeeding' on the UK  
Midwifery list - anyone keeping an eye on that?  I find it amazing  
that so many people are against breastfeeding in public, not to  
mention extended BF.


Anyway, time to don the 'still too small' uniform...

Regards,
Jo

--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.


RE: [ozmidwifery] Wish me luck...

2006-02-03 Thread jo
Good luck Jo, hope all goes well.

jo

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jo Watson
Sent: Saturday, 4 February 2006 9:12 AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Wish me luck...

Well, after nine months on maternity leave, my finances (and my  
husband!) have told me it is time to do some casual shifts at work.   
This morning is my first one.  I am just doing a 6 hour shift, and my  
husband will bring my 8 month old, Will, to work for me at 10am for a  
feed. :)  (these are the benefits of working in a 'baby friendly'  
hospital...)

I am a little nervous!  Being a hospital based Midwife, having had a  
wonderful babymoon after an awesome homebirth - I wonder if I will be  
any different as a Midwife??  We'll see.

There is a great discussion on 'Extended Breastfeeding' on the UK  
Midwifery list - anyone keeping an eye on that?  I find it amazing  
that so many people are against breastfeeding in public, not to  
mention extended BF.

Anyway, time to don the 'still too small' uniform...

Regards,
Jo

--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.


--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.


RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

2006-02-03 Thread Nicole Carver
Title: Message



Hi 
Amy,
You 
have shared some amazing insights (some would say they should not be amazing) 
and I wonder if I could have your permission to share them with my colleagues 
and students? De-identified if you wish. Happy for you to reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] either 
way.
Kind 
regards,
Nicole 
Carver,
Midwife.

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
  adamnamySent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 2:17 AMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  
  On 
  the subject of traumatized women…my two cents
  
  When 
  I was 22 and pregnant for the first time, I had an innate fear, more like 
  terror really of going to hospital for the birth. I don’t know what 
  drove me to so actively avoid a hospital birth but I just knew that it would 
  be an experience that triggered feelings of being assaulted and 
  overpowered. It was my during my booking visit when the male doctor 
  lifted my dress and casually remarked “I’m just going to feel your breasts 
  now” that I realized how disempowered all women are in this process-one which 
  belongs to them ironically enough! I saw the midwife cringing in the 
  corner, feeling acutely aware of his insensitivities but speechless and 
  feeling powerless to act in my defense. He (the doctor) just seemed to 
  have no idea that you actually need to get permission from a person before you 
  cross into their private spaces, and that something of a respectful rapport is 
  useful (he had spent the previous 10 minutes chastising me for my fear of 
  needles and sternly telling me 
  that I “had no choice” about having blood tests for this and that 
  reason. But back to the carefree hands bit…I sat bolt upright and said 
  “no your not” I decided then and there that I didn’t not want any 
  interference because it was inherently disempowering and the doctors attitude 
  patronizing. I knew I needed encouragement, nurturing, information and 
  most of all, for the experience to transform me I needed a healing birth 
  experience. Any woman who has experienced sexual trauma (and let’s face 
  it…that’s a lot of us!) will always need gentle handling. The tiny 
  snippet of hospital based care I saw was definitely not 
  that!
  
  Now 
  when I listen to “mainstream birthing” women talk about birth, I hear the 
  language of submission. “My ob decided such and such” or “they told me I 
  had to…..” or “they made me birth on my back”. It is always something 
  “being done” to her; she rarely describes herself as the active 
  participant. It actually makes me feel sick to hear it. By and 
  large women just aren’t making their own choices and most of the time I 
  suspect they are not supported by partners, doctors or even midwives when they 
  do. When are we all going to realize that the choices made 
  on our behalf, about our bodies and our babies are sometimes made by someone 
  with conflicting interests, a different agenda and really bad, archaic 
  research to back it up? My experience of hospitals (and I work in one as 
  a nurse, not midwife…yet) is that often we nurses still don’t have the 
  confidence to challenge the old medical dinosaur. Women need good 
  information and solid back-up from their midwives (I know that I am preaching 
  to the converted here). And midwives need to do that boldly, shamelessly and 
  confidently, or we give women the idea that it is “naughty” to have a 
  different view, or to challenge the status quo. Had the midwife I spoke 
  of earlier had the guts to say pull the doctor up on his insensitivity at the 
  time (do they hesitate to tell us when they think we have erred?) I may have 
  had more confidence in the system. But as it turned out my choice was a 
  good one and the older I get the more convinced I become that the machine we 
  call “maternity care” is not “care” at all. We might as well call 
  them “baby factory units” because the reality is; they are more like factories 
  than places where women are cared for 
  holistically.
  
  The 
  changes that we are seeking here have boundaries that stretch far beyond the 
  walls of any maternity unit. We women still face sexism in a multitude of ways 
  that we either try to ignore or pretend don’t exist. However this has to 
  be one of the crucial battlefields for women in the recovery of their autonomy 
  and freedom. It will take a long time…but I am prepared to see it 
  through. And in the mean time I recommend independent midwives and 
  homebirth to any one inspired by my beautiful, healing homebirth. Some 
  times I hesitate to tell my story because it must appear blissfully utopian in 
  contrast to some women’s experiences. But maybe those traumatized women 
  want to hear that such a birth is possible, so I tell it as plainly and gently 
  as I can-always hopeful that they might have the confidence in themselves, 
  their bodies and their babies to birth 

RE: [ozmidwifery] Wish me luck...

2006-02-03 Thread Mary Murphy

All the best for your challenging day and the days ahead!  As a woman who
enjoyed an empowering birth, YOU know what CAN be achieved.  Just little
things that make a big difference...closed door, dim lights, no V.E a woman
unless it is absolutely necessary (she may have suffered sexual abuse)treat
her very gently whether you know or not, it's policy isn't enough reason
to do things, quiet voices, not talking about extraneous things (like the
cricket, your big night out etc) asking permission for things you need to
do, people not entering the room uninvited. Your breastfeeding experience
will help you be empathetic to women in similar situations. DO be nervous...
it will help you be more sensitive.  Thinking of you today as ever, Mary M


Well, after nine months on maternity leave, my finances (and my  
husband!) have told me it is time to do some casual shifts at work.   
This morning is my first one.  I am just doing a 6 hour shift, and my  
husband will bring my 8 month old, Will, to work for me at 10am for a  
feed. :)  (these are the benefits of working in a 'baby friendly'  
hospital...)

I am a little nervous!  Being a hospital based Midwife, having had a  
wonderful babymoon after an awesome homebirth - I wonder if I will be  
any different as a Midwife??  We'll see.

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Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

2006-02-03 Thread Andrea Quanchi
Janet  JoI can only speak about the places I have worked where the vast majority of midwives are mothers and choose to work part time. If you are with a woman in labour and or attend her LUSCS you may not even get to see her again during her stay. She will see a different midwife/s each shift and only stay in hospital 2-3 days. In my experience( and it has been a few years) it is unusual for the feelings you are talking about to come anywhere near the point where the woman is willing to discuss them with a total stranger no matter how nice they appear on first meeting. The women are in a state of shock.  The reality is that as a hospital employed midwife you are unlikely to ever to see the woman again after she is discharged from your unit on day 3-4. If you have any suggestions for how we should handle this I for one am willing to listen. I personally try to speak to all such women and their partners and suggest that down the track they may experience some PTS and need to talk with their midwife again and suggest that they call but have never had a woman do this. Should we give them a handout? Perhaps someone who has been through the experience could design one because its not that we dont care but we are as much at a loss on how to deal with it as you suggest.I am in no way excusing  but try and consider the frustration of turning up to work every day and facing a situation that you know sucks and is letting down women daily. It is wearing and what makes midwives give it up. The passionate ones find their way to something better but the majority just give up and become the turn up, do what I have to and get my pay variety not because they didn't once have the passion but that they had to give up or quit for their own survival. The system doesn't encourage thought about what happens to the women and their families before they walk in the door let alone after they leave. Did you know that the NBV sees the following as warning signs that the nurse or midwife may be breaching professional boundaries and may need to seek professional guidance• frequent thinking of the patient while away from work • seeing the patient for an out of hours appointment at a venue when no other staff are present • self-disclosure of information of a personal nature to a patient  • undue concern about meeting expectations of the patient or family • feelings of personal responsibility for patient progress • awareness of greater irritation if system delays patient progress how ridiculous is this because I for one cant switch off the minute I leave the place and often worry about the havoc that has been created in women's lives and that I know the system offers no resources to help them recover from it. I think everyone is with you on this but we need concrete suggestions that can be incorporated into the system we have while we keep fighting to change it. Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been part of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this fit with the MCH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or not) her birth  be involved in this? I ( and probably lots of others on this list) am listeningAndrea QauanchiOn 03/02/2006, at 11:30 PM, Janet Fraser wrote:Jo, you're speaking from my heart as well. I was at a meeting last year of women working to support others in birth trauma. All of us had been suicidal at one point, myself included, none of us had had any support from careproviders.I'm always happy to share my journey but it rarely scores a comment on ozmid. What this means I cannot judge but it makes me fear for other women in my position if we can't talk about it with careproviders. It's not about blame, it's about responsibility for our actions as consumers and a hope that our careproviders will also take responsibility for their actions. We really need everyone to be be truly "with woman" on this one, not with protocol and not with status quo.J- Original Message -From: Dean  JoTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:43 PMSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs supportI think it is ESSENTIAL for midwives and consumer groups to be working together on this one.  Amazingly enough, many complaints we hear about are from women who feel their midwife let them down.  Interesting issue (as I am a doula also, perception and expectation of support is of great interest).  Most would agree with the fragmented care currently offered there is a huge reliance on trusting someone who has just walked in the door.  anyone caring for a woman tries to do their best; but their best may not correspond with the woman's needs, even the 'nicest' midwife can upset 

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

2006-02-03 Thread Janet Fraser



I remember it but I disagree 
with it entirely. It struck me as no more logical and useful than the obstetric 
refusal to offer OFP because a study showing a crude, almost silly form of it 
didn't have the desired effect. (10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the 
lifestyle operation that is true OFP)
Talking therapies are pretty 
much the only "cure" for PTSD and that's been well demonstrated over and over. 
The one study showing otherwise holds no weight.
J

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Mary 
  Murphy 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 
  AM
  Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  
  
  I believe there is 
  some research out there that looked at de-briefing women after birth, 
  particularly traumatic births. As I remember it, the research did not 
  show that this debriefing had particularly helpful outcomes. Of course 
  it is all in the Who, the When and the How. Does anyone remember 
  it? Mary 
  Murphy
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Andrea 
  wrote:
  
  Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up 
  appointment with the midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they 
  may have been part of the problem, should all women have a follow up 
  appointment but the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment 
  with, at what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How 
  does this fit with the MCH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on 
  going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who 
  attended (or not) her birth be involved in 
  this?
  
  


Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

2006-02-03 Thread Andrea Quanchi
Yeh, Janet but how do we make talking therapies available to the women who need them and who do you see is the person who should be providing this 'therapy' and whenAndreaOn 04/02/2006, at 11:19 AM, Janet Fraser wrote:I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me as no more logical and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP because a study showing a crude, almost silly form of it didn't have the desired effect. (10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the lifestyle operation that is true OFP)Talking therapies are pretty much the only "cure" for PTSD and that's been well demonstrated over and over. The one study showing otherwise holds no weight.J- Original Message -From: Mary MurphyTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AMSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs supportI believe there is some research out there that looked at de-briefing women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I remember it, the research did not show that this debriefing had particularly helpful outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the How.  Does anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy Andrea wrote:Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been part of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this fit with the MCH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or not) her birth  be involved in this?  

[ozmidwifery] internet

2006-02-03 Thread Sylvia Boutsalis
Title: Message



Hi all,


My cousin told me she recently googled our name 
"Boutsalis" and came up with quite a few hits. So out of curiosity I did 
it just yesturday on both yahoo and google. Do you know that my questions 
to Ozmid came up on the search? 

I thought this list is private and yet the questions I 
had about hair dye and baby poo came up? Would anyone else like to try 
their own names to see what happens. I didn't check other names because 
you know what you wrote better than I do. We express some radical views on the 
list and wouldn't want anyone getting into trouble.

Are the moderators aware of this...Andrea?

Sylvia Boutsalis
Adelaide


Re: [ozmidwifery] internet

2006-02-03 Thread Andrea Quanchi
No the list has never been private and anyone can get hold of anything that is on any chat list in the world and pass it on to whom ever they please including the persons or organisations that people are talking about  whether directly or indirectly and we all need to remember this when we submit to the list.thats the internet for youAndrea QuanchiOn 04/02/2006, at 11:48 AM, Sylvia Boutsalis wrote:  Hi all,  My cousin told me she recently googled our name "Boutsalis" and came up with quite a few hits.  So out of curiosity I did it just yesturday on both yahoo and google.  Do you know that my questions to Ozmid came up on the search?   I thought this list is private and yet the questions I had about hair dye and baby poo came up?  Would anyone else like to try their own names to see what happens.  I didn't check other names because you know what you wrote better than I do. We express some radical views on the list and wouldn't want anyone getting into trouble. Are the moderators aware of this...Andrea? Sylvia BoutsalisAdelaide

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

2006-02-03 Thread Janet Fraser
No, exactly, Jo. I mentioned yesterday (I think?) that I'm currently helping
a woman totally retraumatised by her hospital debriefing. It's called
Sanctuary Trauma, when a person is retraumatised, sometimes more seriously,
because they were mistreated when they sought help with a primary trauma. To
me it's like getting counselling from your rapist.
J
- Original Message - 
From: Jo Bourne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support


Talking therapies may be the only cure, that certainly sounds right to me.
However I can't imagine having been raped, assaulted OR traumatised by my
birth experience and then wanting to do that talking in the place or with
the people where it happened. Perhaps in the last stages of healing, as a
final letting go/closure thing, but certainly not in the very first days of
the shock. I did not have a remotely traumatic birth experience but have had
other traumas in my life and have had a lot of talking to do about them, I
can't think of one occasion I wanted to go back to the person/place that was
the source of the trauma.

At 11:19 AM +1100 4/2/06, Janet Fraser wrote:
I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me as no more
logical and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP because a study
showing a crude, almost silly form of it didn't have the desired effect.
(10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the lifestyle operation that is
true OFP)
Talking therapies are pretty much the only cure for PTSD and that's been
well demonstrated over and over. The one study showing otherwise holds no
weight.
J

- Original Message -
From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Mary Murphy
To: mailto:ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

I believe there is some research out there that looked at de-briefing women
after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I remember it, the research
did not show that this debriefing had particularly helpful outcomes.  Of
course it is all in the Who, the When and the How.  Does anyone remember it?
Mary Murphy


Andrea wrote:
Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the
midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been part
of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but the woman
be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at what stage would
this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this fit with the
MCH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care? How does her
doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or not) her birth
be involved in this?



-- 
Jo Bourne
Virtual Artists Pty Ltd
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

2006-02-03 Thread Janet Fraser



"Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the 
midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been part of 
the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but the woman be 
allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at what stage would this 
be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this fit with the MCH 
nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care? How does her doctor, 
be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or not) her birth be 
involved in this?"

Andrea these are definitely on 
track about post-trauma, but how about measures to prevent the 
trauma in the first place?PTSD is not inevitable as I've seen women 
experience very traumatic births either through staff mishandling or purely "no 
fault" as it were, stuff that just goes wrong but through the intervention of 
JUST ONE kind, loving staff member, the woman has suffered no lasting ill 
effects. It would also require so many changes of mindset on the part of those 
CPs too. People believe that birth is traumatic in itself and that drugs and 
interventions improve, not detract from, the experience. This is not the case 
for most women who had no need of those interventions in the first place. Real 
debriefing can only occur in a place with no vested interest in the outcome. 
Hospitals are keen to avoid what they see as potential lititgation and will 
refuse to listen to emotional pain as valid. I have a close friend who has 
written proof in her records of serious mistakes, outright lies, really shocking 
stuff that has left her gutted for years. She tried desparately to talk to the 
hospital but despite the lies being in black and white in her record the only 
response has been total denial, we were right, we know what we're doing, you're 
wrong. She had a barely qualified surgeon perform surgery she neither needed nor 
consented to, and he left a large chunk of placenta behind. Of course the 
massive infection was treated as malingering until she got a private u/s and had 
it confirmed. Hospital response? No, we didn't do that. It must be something 
else. She now has a lifelong battle with horrible scarring from the crap job 
that was done and the resulting infection, as well as chronic systemic candida 
from the months and months of antibs required. This was her second unnecessary 
surgery but most people around her, medical people included, view her as 
fortunate to have access to western medical care. Her ideal birth now is under a 
tree a long way from such care. She said no to the caesarean, she told every 
person she saw in the hospital that she didn't consent, she ran outside and 
smoked compulsively hoping this would stop her being given an epidural (which 
incidentally didn't work so she felt the whole surgery, something else the 
hospital deny happened. Hard to think she'd imagine that.). When she tried to 
talk about how traumatised she is, she was told that it was just leftover trauma 
from her first caesarean and nothing to do with all these factors. She 
also had her baby taken to SCN and didn't meet him for 24 hours later by which 
time he'd been ff with thickened formula without her consent for perceived 
reflux. Major Melbourne hospital.

What we REALLY need is to 
prevent it in the first place. How can we do this? Well I offered to talk to 
students in the hospital where my birthrape occurred but have never been taken 
up on it. I'mnot really surprised even though my offer was entirely 
genuine.

We need to impress upon those 
involved in care that "informed consent" does not mean massaging the truth, 
telling outright lies, manipulating women "You want the best for your baby don't 
you? Take this drug."
We need NO to mean no, so that 
when a woman says no she is respected. I'm not sure that all the people who see 
vaginas every day for a living necessarily respect the sanctity of women's 
bodies. I certainly received no respect for my body in my hospital experience. 

If a woman screams when you 
touch her, STOP TOUCHING HER. Leave the room if you've scared her, make sure 
someone else takes over from you. Apologise as soon as possible.
Just a few quick hints but I 
can provide a lot more.

We also only have funding and 
recognition of PND in this country. PND is a great diagnosis which puts all the 
blame on the defective woman and recognises no possibility that she may actually 
have PTSD. I've spoken to numerous PND support groups, and women who attend 
them, and most are rubbish. There is no discussion of birth although most of the 
women are traumatised by their experience or at the very least require intensive 
debriefing. Most of them involve exhortations to get more sleep, generally by 
weaning and ff, and do nice things for yourself. Wildly inappropriate and 
unhelpful. When I was suicidal from PTSD I saw my GP who insisted on booking me 
into a PND unit. I kept repeating over and over that I didn't have PND. He 

[ozmidwifery] PTSD

2006-02-03 Thread Michelle Windsor
In relation to the previous posts.. I recently attended a lecture by Professor Debra Creedy (from Griffith University, Qld) on PTSD in relation to birth. She said that psychologists have accused her and her colleagues of making pathology where none exists!! You can read more of her work at:www.gu.edu.au/ins/collections/proflects/creedy02.pdfwww.qnc.qld.gov.au/upload/pdfs/research_grants/Research_Report_Creedy.pdfCheers   Michelle
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

2006-02-03 Thread Nicole Carver



HI 
Mary,
I 
remember reading about that research and being surprised. I have discussed it 
with the psych nurse employed where I work, who spends time nearly every day 
with women who have experienced traumatic births (or perceived them to be even 
when we might not have called them such). She feels it does help. Even one visit 
can help women who want to understand what happened to them and why. Some 
require much more, and thankfully our maternity support workers are great with 
these women. However, it is a tragedy that we need to have these workers. They 
do also work with antenatal and postnatal depression.
I 
can't remember the specifics, but I don't recall being particularly impressed 
with the methodology of the study that you mention. And if women want to talk 
about their experience they should be able to, whether it is formal debriefing 
or whatever. I suppose you don't want to treat all women the same, ie what is 
appropriate debriefing for one woman, would not necessarily work for another. If 
you did try to treat them the same it would not be surprising if it did not 
work.
Nicole 
Carver.

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Mary 
  MurphySent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:59 AMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  
  I believe there is 
  some research out there that looked at de-briefing women after birth, 
  particularly traumatic births. As I remember it, the research did not 
  show that this debriefing had particularly helpful outcomes. Of course 
  it is all in the Who, the When and the How. Does anyone remember 
  it? Mary 
  Murphy
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Andrea 
  wrote:
  
  Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up 
  appointment with the midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they 
  may have been part of the problem, should all women have a follow up 
  appointment but the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment 
  with, at what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How 
  does this fit with the MCH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on 
  going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who 
  attended (or not) her birth be involved in 
  this?