Re: [PAYCO] Re: Festive Message

2017-01-23 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
0749226361

On 20 Jan 2017 07:40, "'tembelani xundu' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress"
 wrote:

> Can I get your number Poqo. You can sms it or whatsupp it to me
> 0741531525/0731531525
>
>
>
> On Thursday, January 5, 2017 2:26 PM, sipho mnguni <
> sipho.samang...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> people will come and go but the PAC will remain.therefore i urge the
> members to remain focus to the cause and when the moment arrive we must be
> in the perfect balance and correct our mistakes.Our first port of call is
> to go to the masses and assume responsibilities which are overlooked by
> those at helm of this tree that is rooted from the african soil.2 we need
> to orbserve our calander.3 inclusive congress
>
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi <
> nrkgag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> M'Afrika Maoka
>
> The path to rebuild the PAC is depended on defactionalising the PAC and
> forging principled unity, this is the only logical path to arrest what some
> perceive as PAC disintegration and thrown into political oblivion.
>
> All members inclusive interbranch regional and Provincial meetings should
> be organised on regular basis to defactionalise the PAC from the bottom up
> aiming to forge principled unity and implement the 1959 Africanist
> manifesto.
>
> All public representatives should not be replaced and they should complete
> their terms and encouraged to work with all PAC members and branches and
> component structures.
>
> All component structures should be operate within their respective
> constitutions and abide by PAC Constitution adaoptedin GaMatlala Tompi
> Seleke Congress
>
> Moving forward, Unite and Rally the Afrikans masses to overthrow white
> supremacy and capitalism stands as a fundamental daunting task for every
> PAC member to action 24 hours and 7 days. 1959 Afrikanist Manifesto is the
> crystal political mandates.
>
> 2019 PAC must Govern only a united revolutionary PAC can realise this
> objective.
>
> Shango lashu
> Nkrumah Kgagudi
>
> On 23 Dec 2016 06:25, "Richard Maoka"  wrote:
>
>
> Kindly receive the attached
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Maoka RN
>
>
> --
> --
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Re: [PAYCO] Re: Festive Message

2017-01-19 Thread 'tembelani xundu' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
Can I get your number Poqo. You can sms it or whatsupp it to me 
0741531525/0731531525
 

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 2:26 PM, sipho mnguni 
 wrote:
 

 people will come and go but the PAC will remain.therefore i urge the members 
to remain focus to the cause and when the moment arrive we must be in the 
perfect balance and correct our mistakes.Our first port of call is to go to the 
masses and assume responsibilities which are overlooked by those at helm of 
this tree that is rooted from the african soil.2 we need to orbserve our 
calander.3 inclusive congress 
On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi  
wrote:

M'Afrika Maoka
The path to rebuild the PAC is depended on defactionalising the PAC and forging 
principled unity, this is the only logical path to arrest what some perceive as 
PAC disintegration and thrown into political oblivion. 
All members inclusive interbranch regional and Provincial meetings should be 
organised on regular basis to defactionalise the PAC from the bottom up aiming 
to forge principled unity and implement the 1959 Africanist manifesto.
All public representatives should not be replaced and they should complete 
their terms and encouraged to work with all PAC members and branches and 
component structures. 
All component structures should be operate within their respective 
constitutions and abide by PAC Constitution adaoptedin GaMatlala Tompi Seleke 
Congress 
Moving forward, Unite and Rally the Afrikans masses to overthrow white 
supremacy and capitalism stands as a fundamental daunting task for every PAC 
member to action 24 hours and 7 days. 1959 Afrikanist Manifesto is the crystal 
political mandates.  
2019 PAC must Govern only a united revolutionary PAC can realise this objective.
Shango lashuNkrumah Kgagudi

On 23 Dec 2016 06:25, "Richard Maoka"  wrote:

 
Kindly receive the attached
Kind Regards
Maoka RN

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Re: [PAYCO] Invitation: MEN ON THE MOUNTAIN (a Pan-Afrikan "initiation" for Brothers)

2016-09-16 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Izwe lethu! Brother Buntu

On 16 Sep 2016 09:13, "BabaBuntu"  wrote:

> *M'Afrika,*
>
> eBukhosini Solutions is inviting all Afrikan Brothers to
>
> *MEN ON THE MOUNTAIN*
>
> *1st October (all day)*
>
> *Johannesburg, Gauteng*
>
>
> See FB link here: https://web.facebook.com/events/1154566634600248/
>
>
>
> MEN ON THE MOUNTAIN: A Day To Remember!
>
>
>
> Saturday 1 October 2016 (all day)
>
> Information: Pitsi Ragophala 074 690 4012, pi...@ebukhosinisolutions.co.za
>
>
>
> SHABAKA – MEN OF AFRIKA invites to an all-day session for Afrikan Men
> (18+) on Black Male Self Development, sexuality, reproduction, marriage and
> relationships from a Pan-Afrikan Male perspective. Basically, there are no
> taboos!
>
>
>
> MEN ON THE MOUNTAIN takes place outside in nature, is based on
> Afrikan-Centred views and is for Afrikan Men who seek to understand
> themselves and how to build a powerful relationship with an Afrikan woman
> and stay devoted to the empowerment of Afrikan Families/Communities. The
> session is coordinated by Warrior Men from SHABAKA - MEN OF AFRIKA.
>
>
>
> If you are interested, send your email address, name and age – and you
> will receive a personal invitation with more details. Note that the session
> is informed by Pan-Afrikan cultural philosophy and practice, but not linked
> to any religious or political institution. It is suitable for ALL Black men
> of all age groups, over 18 years, who are open to Pan-Afrikan ideas.
>
>
> Izwe Lethu iAfrika!
>
>
> i...@ebukhosinisolutions.co.za
>
> SHABAKA – MEN OF AFRIKA / eBukhosini Solutions
>
> www.ebukhosinisolutions.co.za
>
>
>
> --
> Afrikan Salutations, BABA BUNTU
> Executive Director
> Johannesburg
>
> Our web: www.ebukhosinisolutions.co.za
> Our Facebook: www.facebook.com/ebukhosinisolutions/
> My YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/bababuntu
> My Skype: baba.buntu
>
>
> --
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Re: [PAYCO] APLA IMBIZO

2016-09-15 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
APLA National Imbizo

The APLA National Imbizo will be held on:

Date: 01 October 2016
Place: Bloemfontein
Venue: is available and will be announced in due course.

Those who wish to make accommodation arrangements, please make sure that
you make bookings in Bloemfontein Central, not far from Mimosa Mall.

This is a call to all former APLA forces to come reminisce and where
practical see how best can we help each other going forward.

For more details contact Ntsiki Kungwayo aka Nosipho Gaca @ 082 224 1686
during working hours or send an email to ntsikikungw...@gmail.com

Please share

On 14 Sep 2016 18:54, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:

> Comrade Nkrumah
>
> Meeting is where issues are discussed and resolved.
>
> The point still stands. There are two PAC NEC structures by default as we
> speak. we cannot deny that. They are product of PAC "conference"  whether
> the status of those conferences is debatable, or not. That is the reason
> parliament through IEC accepted Mphahlele as the PAC President by default.
> Parliament later recognized Mphethi and later Mbinda as PAC President based
> on court rulings. Whether such decisions were right or wrong is another
> issue all together. Courts give structures legality, not legitimate. There
> is difference legality and legitimacy. It is only conferences / congresses
> that give legitimacy to party structures elected constitutionally (in line
> with the PAC Constitution).
>
> The top-down approach is different from the approach I proposed. It works
> outside the PAC Constitution, not in line with the PAC Constitution. My
> proposal is the three structures should be engaged to get their buy-in to
> convene congress jointly. If Mbinda's faction pulls out of the talks but
> all other PAC structures (including its component structures eg, APLAMVA,
> PAYCO and PASMA) agree to  continue with the talks and convening of the PAC
> Special Conference, the conference can continue. Majority rules even in
> political parties. PAC belongs to all PAC members, not to Mbinda faction
> only. PAC cannot be left to the mercy of one individual or one faction /
> group.
>
> On the issue of attending ongoing unity conferences or meetings at
> provincial and regional levels, I cannot attend them. There is no PAM
> decision mandated me to attend such meetings. As a principled, loyal PAM
> member  I can only attend meetings outside of PAM if I am mandated to do so
> by PAM to represent it in those conferences / meetings, not myself.
> Currently, there are PAM members mandated to attend unity talks on behalf
> of PAM, not me. PAM made the decision consciously.
>
> My input in this payco group to unity talks' approaches is personal. It is
> not the official PAM position. it is just an advice to comrades to look at
> a big picture when dealing with the unity talks. I have the right to do so
> especially that I am not in the PAM NEC /PEC/REC/BEC at the moment. I just
> know that PAM has no precondition to unity talks or attendance of unity
> meetings / conferences at the moment.
>
> Izwe Lethu!
>
>
>
>
>
> On 14 September 2016 at 18:01, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi <
> nrkgag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Cde Chargein
>>
>> Best we meet and discuss these approaches, some parts of your arguments
>> hold other have their own defects and self contradictory. And, no court
>> ruled in favour of Mbinda-Moloto as legitimate national leadership of PAC,
>> the same applies to the parallel Letlapa's NEC. The latest judgement refers
>> Mbinda-Moloto NEC as a line of communication for or on IEC related matters,
>> elections had passed consequently their elections role has lapsed.
>>
>> If both parallel NECs are illegitimate as per PAC Constitution then an
>> illegitimate structure can't be entrusted pursue legitimate constitutional
>> roles.
>>
>> If Mbinda-Moloto NECs and Letlapa's NEC reject a reconciliatory approach
>> of a Joint Committee then what? This  once again becomes an issue for PAC
>> members to explore sustainable alternative paths to forge principled unity.
>> Remember what you are proposing was tried and done by Unity Coordinating
>> Committee led by Joe Thloloe, Dinners and other party Veterans the same
>> unity process is at suspense as we speak because Mbinda-Moloto leadership
>> faction rejected the same unity approach you proposing. While PAM
>> delegation and Letlapa's NEC leadership faction accepted the unity call.
>>
>> Lastly let's not raise leadership factions to be demigods to arrest and
>> frustrate the unity of PAC with impunity.
>>
>> Party Membership must close ranks with party Veterans and pursue the
>> programme to forge principled unity of the PAC;, PAM and any leadership
>> faction which embraces this call of principled party Unity must also close
>> ranks and march ahead.
>>
>> Shango lashu
>>
>> Nkrumah
>>
>> On 14 Sep 2016 17:30, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>>
>>> The problem is: How do you dissolve the two contested PAC NEC structures

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-14 Thread Chargein Mabaso
Comrade Nkrumah

Meeting is where issues are discussed and resolved.

The point still stands. There are two PAC NEC structures by default as we
speak. we cannot deny that. They are product of PAC "conference"  whether
the status of those conferences is debatable, or not. That is the reason
parliament through IEC accepted Mphahlele as the PAC President by default.
Parliament later recognized Mphethi and later Mbinda as PAC President based
on court rulings. Whether such decisions were right or wrong is another
issue all together. Courts give structures legality, not legitimate. There
is difference legality and legitimacy. It is only conferences / congresses
that give legitimacy to party structures elected constitutionally (in line
with the PAC Constitution).

The top-down approach is different from the approach I proposed. It works
outside the PAC Constitution, not in line with the PAC Constitution. My
proposal is the three structures should be engaged to get their buy-in to
convene congress jointly. If Mbinda's faction pulls out of the talks but
all other PAC structures (including its component structures eg, APLAMVA,
PAYCO and PASMA) agree to  continue with the talks and convening of the PAC
Special Conference, the conference can continue. Majority rules even in
political parties. PAC belongs to all PAC members, not to Mbinda faction
only. PAC cannot be left to the mercy of one individual or one faction /
group.

On the issue of attending ongoing unity conferences or meetings at
provincial and regional levels, I cannot attend them. There is no PAM
decision mandated me to attend such meetings. As a principled, loyal PAM
member  I can only attend meetings outside of PAM if I am mandated to do so
by PAM to represent it in those conferences / meetings, not myself.
Currently, there are PAM members mandated to attend unity talks on behalf
of PAM, not me. PAM made the decision consciously.

My input in this payco group to unity talks' approaches is personal. It is
not the official PAM position. it is just an advice to comrades to look at
a big picture when dealing with the unity talks. I have the right to do so
especially that I am not in the PAM NEC /PEC/REC/BEC at the moment. I just
know that PAM has no precondition to unity talks or attendance of unity
meetings / conferences at the moment.

Izwe Lethu!





On 14 September 2016 at 18:01, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi 
wrote:

> Cde Chargein
>
> Best we meet and discuss these approaches, some parts of your arguments
> hold other have their own defects and self contradictory. And, no court
> ruled in favour of Mbinda-Moloto as legitimate national leadership of PAC,
> the same applies to the parallel Letlapa's NEC. The latest judgement refers
> Mbinda-Moloto NEC as a line of communication for or on IEC related matters,
> elections had passed consequently their elections role has lapsed.
>
> If both parallel NECs are illegitimate as per PAC Constitution then an
> illegitimate structure can't be entrusted pursue legitimate constitutional
> roles.
>
> If Mbinda-Moloto NECs and Letlapa's NEC reject a reconciliatory approach
> of a Joint Committee then what? This  once again becomes an issue for PAC
> members to explore sustainable alternative paths to forge principled unity.
> Remember what you are proposing was tried and done by Unity Coordinating
> Committee led by Joe Thloloe, Dinners and other party Veterans the same
> unity process is at suspense as we speak because Mbinda-Moloto leadership
> faction rejected the same unity approach you proposing. While PAM
> delegation and Letlapa's NEC leadership faction accepted the unity call.
>
> Lastly let's not raise leadership factions to be demigods to arrest and
> frustrate the unity of PAC with impunity.
>
> Party Membership must close ranks with party Veterans and pursue the
> programme to forge principled unity of the PAC;, PAM and any leadership
> faction which embraces this call of principled party Unity must also close
> ranks and march ahead.
>
> Shango lashu
>
> Nkrumah
>
> On 14 Sep 2016 17:30, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>
>> The problem is: How do you dissolve the two contested PAC NEC structures
>> not in a conference / congress, the highest decision-making bodies of the
>> Party, as per the PAC Constitution? How do you convene the properly
>> constituted PAC National Conference / Congress in line with the PAC
>> Constitution? Which clause (s) in the PAC Constitution will be followed to
>> establish the new structure constitutionally and also have the powers to
>> convene the PAC National Conference or Congress in line with the PAC
>> Constitution? According to the PAC Constitution, it is only the PAC NEC has
>> powers to convene the PAC National Conference / Congress, not other
>> structure?(Refer to the PAC Constitution). All PAC activities are only
>> guided by the PAC Basic Documents, nothing more, nothing less. Hence, the
>> need to get the buy-in from the existing 

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-14 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Cde Chargein

A provincial unity meeting is planned for the October 2015, I encourage you
attend provincial meetings and also there will be Vaal Regional meeting
somewhere in October.

Shango lashu
Nkrumah

On 14 Sep 2016 18:01, "Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi"  wrote:

> Cde Chargein
>
> Best we meet and discuss these approaches, some parts of your arguments
> hold other have their own defects and self contradictory. And, no court
> ruled in favour of Mbinda-Moloto as legitimate national leadership of PAC,
> the same applies to the parallel Letlapa's NEC. The latest judgement refers
> Mbinda-Moloto NEC as a line of communication for or on IEC related matters,
> elections had passed consequently their elections role has lapsed.
>
> If both parallel NECs are illegitimate as per PAC Constitution then an
> illegitimate structure can't be entrusted pursue legitimate constitutional
> roles.
>
> If Mbinda-Moloto NECs and Letlapa's NEC reject a reconciliatory approach
> of a Joint Committee then what? This  once again becomes an issue for PAC
> members to explore sustainable alternative paths to forge principled unity.
> Remember what you are proposing was tried and done by Unity Coordinating
> Committee led by Joe Thloloe, Dinners and other party Veterans the same
> unity process is at suspense as we speak because Mbinda-Moloto leadership
> faction rejected the same unity approach you proposing. While PAM
> delegation and Letlapa's NEC leadership faction accepted the unity call.
>
> Lastly let's not raise leadership factions to be demigods to arrest and
> frustrate the unity of PAC with impunity.
>
> Party Membership must close ranks with party Veterans and pursue the
> programme to forge principled unity of the PAC;, PAM and any leadership
> faction which embraces this call of principled party Unity must also close
> ranks and march ahead.
>
> Shango lashu
>
> Nkrumah
>
> On 14 Sep 2016 17:30, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>
>> The problem is: How do you dissolve the two contested PAC NEC structures
>> not in a conference / congress, the highest decision-making bodies of the
>> Party, as per the PAC Constitution? How do you convene the properly
>> constituted PAC National Conference / Congress in line with the PAC
>> Constitution? Which clause (s) in the PAC Constitution will be followed to
>> establish the new structure constitutionally and also have the powers to
>> convene the PAC National Conference or Congress in line with the PAC
>> Constitution? According to the PAC Constitution, it is only the PAC NEC has
>> powers to convene the PAC National Conference / Congress, not other
>> structure?(Refer to the PAC Constitution). All PAC activities are only
>> guided by the PAC Basic Documents, nothing more, nothing less. Hence, the
>> need to get the buy-in from the existing NEC structures as constitutionally
>> recognized entities elected in a PAC "Conferences" because they constitute
>> PAC National leadership even by default. I used "Conferences" to emphasize
>> the fact that that is so even if their status is debatable within the PAC.
>> Remember, the decisions of courts of laws are not in line with and outside
>> the PAC Constitution. They cannot be reached in violation of the PAC
>> Constitution and then be binding to PAC members. Mbinda-led NEC may be
>> legally recognised as PAC NEC but may at the same time unconstitutional and
>> illlegimate within the PAC because it was elected in violation of the PAC
>> Constitution. The same may apply to Mphahlele-led NEC. It is only a
>> properly constituted PAC Conference / Conference can make such a decision,
>> not courts or law or some kangaroo courts in some corners. Hence, the need
>> to convene a properly constituted PAC Conference / Congress jointly
>> organised by, at least, the two PAC NECs.
>>
>> Comrade, let's remember: two wrongs do not make a right. We cannot
>> correct the wrongs of others through our own wrong ways. The right way to
>> run PAC affairs is to do everything in line with the PAC Basic Documents,
>> especially the Constitution in this case. Any decisions (resolutions) taken
>> outside the PAC national conferences / congresses are not PAC decisions
>> (resolutions). Party decisions affecting branches are taken at branch
>> meetings or AGMs, those affecting regional  or provincial structures are
>> taken at Regional or provincial conferences / congresses and also those
>> affecting national structures are taken at national conferences /
>> congresses as per the PAC Constitution as we know it. Any decisions taken
>> not in line with the PAC Constitution are not PAC decisions / resolutions.
>>
>> This simply means the bottom-up approach will be in violation of the PAC
>> Constitution and as such will be unconstitutional. That is the reason I
>> said there is no logic in this approach as far as PAC processes and
>> constitution are concerned. Its result will not be different from the
>> Top-down approach. Both 

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-14 Thread Chargein Mabaso
The problem is: How do you dissolve the two contested PAC NEC structures
not in a conference / congress, the highest decision-making bodies of the
Party, as per the PAC Constitution? How do you convene the properly
constituted PAC National Conference / Congress in line with the PAC
Constitution? Which clause (s) in the PAC Constitution will be followed to
establish the new structure constitutionally and also have the powers to
convene the PAC National Conference or Congress in line with the PAC
Constitution? According to the PAC Constitution, it is only the PAC NEC has
powers to convene the PAC National Conference / Congress, not other
structure?(Refer to the PAC Constitution). All PAC activities are only
guided by the PAC Basic Documents, nothing more, nothing less. Hence, the
need to get the buy-in from the existing NEC structures as constitutionally
recognized entities elected in a PAC "Conferences" because they constitute
PAC National leadership even by default. I used "Conferences" to emphasize
the fact that that is so even if their status is debatable within the PAC.
Remember, the decisions of courts of laws are not in line with and outside
the PAC Constitution. They cannot be reached in violation of the PAC
Constitution and then be binding to PAC members. Mbinda-led NEC may be
legally recognised as PAC NEC but may at the same time unconstitutional and
illlegimate within the PAC because it was elected in violation of the PAC
Constitution. The same may apply to Mphahlele-led NEC. It is only a
properly constituted PAC Conference / Conference can make such a decision,
not courts or law or some kangaroo courts in some corners. Hence, the need
to convene a properly constituted PAC Conference / Congress jointly
organised by, at least, the two PAC NECs.

Comrade, let's remember: two wrongs do not make a right. We cannot correct
the wrongs of others through our own wrong ways. The right way to run PAC
affairs is to do everything in line with the PAC Basic Documents,
especially the Constitution in this case. Any decisions (resolutions) taken
outside the PAC national conferences / congresses are not PAC decisions
(resolutions). Party decisions affecting branches are taken at branch
meetings or AGMs, those affecting regional  or provincial structures are
taken at Regional or provincial conferences / congresses and also those
affecting national structures are taken at national conferences /
congresses as per the PAC Constitution as we know it. Any decisions taken
not in line with the PAC Constitution are not PAC decisions / resolutions.

This simply means the bottom-up approach will be in violation of the PAC
Constitution and as such will be unconstitutional. That is the reason I
said there is no logic in this approach as far as PAC processes and
constitution are concerned. Its result will not be different from the
Top-down approach. Both approaches are recipes for a breakaway from the PAC
because their outcomes will not be PAC structures as per the PAC
Constitution.The current leadership will be justify to expel the organisers
of those dubious conferences / congresses as rebels who are destined to
damage the image of PAC.  Both approaches (Bottom-up / Top-dpwn) will reach
political cul-del-sac very soon. Their results will suffer from illegality,
unconstitutionality and illegitimacy.

I rest my case.

Izwe Lethu!





On 14 September 2016 at 13:19, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi 
wrote:

> Comrade Chargein
>
> The two approaches are contradictory both can unfold simultaneously
> leading to a PAC UNITY National Conference, that is, Bottom-up and
> Dissolution of parallel NEC's the formation of a Joint Committee then PAC
> National Unity Conference.
>
> Shango lashu
> Nkrumah
>
> On 14 Sep 2016 09:40, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>
>> Comrade Nkrumah
>>
>> Who calls the conference may be a major obstacle to my proposal but it
>> can be overcome through collective effort. The feasible solution is to
>> convene the special conference or congress jointly and the conference /
>> congress to be co-chared by the joint  / collective leadership of the three
>> NECs (two PAC NECS and PAM NEC). That is, the two PAC NECs and PAM NEC  to
>> come together and convene the conference / congress jointly. That is not
>> something new. After the PAC unbanning, the PAC Central Committee from
>> exile under the leadership of PAC Chairman Johnson Mlambo and PAM NEC
>> (representing PAC in the hone front) under the leadership of President
>> Clarence Makwetu convened the 2nd PAC Congress jointly to elect the
>> collective PAC leadership. Comrade Johnson Mlambo and other former PAC
>> leaders can advised the joint committee how to convene conference /
>> congress jointly from their experience. The joint committee may be composed
>> of two representives from two PAC factions and PAM e,g, presidents and
>> secretary=-generals of the three factions. Any arrangement can be decided
>> on.  Nothing is 

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-14 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Comrade Chargein

The two approaches are contradictory both can unfold simultaneously leading
to a PAC UNITY National Conference, that is, Bottom-up and Dissolution of
parallel NEC's the formation of a Joint Committee then PAC National Unity
Conference.

Shango lashu
Nkrumah

On 14 Sep 2016 09:40, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:

> Comrade Nkrumah
>
> Who calls the conference may be a major obstacle to my proposal but it can
> be overcome through collective effort. The feasible solution is to convene
> the special conference or congress jointly and the conference / congress to
> be co-chared by the joint  / collective leadership of the three NECs (two
> PAC NECS and PAM NEC). That is, the two PAC NECs and PAM NEC  to come
> together and convene the conference / congress jointly. That is not
> something new. After the PAC unbanning, the PAC Central Committee from
> exile under the leadership of PAC Chairman Johnson Mlambo and PAM NEC
> (representing PAC in the hone front) under the leadership of President
> Clarence Makwetu convened the 2nd PAC Congress jointly to elect the
> collective PAC leadership. Comrade Johnson Mlambo and other former PAC
> leaders can advised the joint committee how to convene conference /
> congress jointly from their experience. The joint committee may be composed
> of two representives from two PAC factions and PAM e,g, presidents and
> secretary=-generals of the three factions. Any arrangement can be decided
> on.  Nothing is impossible.
>
> I know Mbinda-Moloto will try to resist the inclusion of Mphahlele's
> faction in the convening of the conference / congress. The truth is there
> can be no unity withiin the PAC without Mphahlele's faction. That we must
> admit it. We all need each other. Mbinda faction needs both PAM and
> Mphahlele's faction and vice-versa. I know many people are scared of
> Mphahlele as an individual for his consistence for what he believes in but
> they cannot wish him away from the PAC just like that. He is part and
> parcel of the PAC. He is an asset and liability of the PAC like Mabaso,
> Ntsie, Narius, Fihla, Mbinda, etc. We are products of PAC and no other
> political party. To wish us away from the PAC is wishful thinking. We will
> remain PAC inside or outside PAC. PAC must just learn how to live with us
> like Julius Malaema to the ANC  or else we will be a toothache to the PAC,
> both individually or collectively. That is a fact.
>
> Comrades, PAM has no preconditions before attending PAC Special unity
> Conference/Congress if we are invited accordingly and as long as we are
> invited by PAC, not PAC factions (both Mbinda and Mphahlele faction or even
> new PAC faction). We will definitely attend a properly organised PAC
> Special Conference / Congress as long it will be organiised in line with
> the PAC Constitution adopted before Qwaqwa Congress (at Tompie Seleka
> Congress) as that is undoctored PAC Constitution.  If PAC does not have it,
> we have it in our custody.
>
> Comrades, we are not scared to be swallowed by PAC leadership. We know
> what we stand for and what we expect for PAC unity to materialize.  We have
> the right to march out of any unity conference / congress if it is not what
> we expected or even later breakaway from the unholy marriage. We are not
> obliged to unite if we are not the like-minded.
>
> That is our position.
>
> Izwe Lethu!
>
> On 13 September 2016 at 18:57, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi <
> nrkgag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Cde Chargein
>>
>> Conference convened by who, when there are parallel NEC's?
>>
>> Which Constitution become applicable to convene such a conference since
>> Mbinda-Moloto leadership faction follows it's own adopted in 2015 while
>> others follow GaMatlala 2000 Constitution?
>>
>> Will PAM accede to follow PAC protocols?
>>
>> Shango lashu
>>
>> Nkrumah
>>
>> On 13 Sep 2016 17:54, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>>
>>> Comrade Nkrumah
>>>
>>> i made my proposal in the document i drafted. I believe a special
>>> unity conference or congress should be convened to do wholistic
>>> introspextion and maximum self-criticism and ceiticism as a party,
>>> learn lessons from our successes and failures, take drastic
>>> resolutions to uproot factiomalism in the party, disband all factions
>>> and NEC structures elected based on factions, develop Party-building
>>> programme to unite the Party into a great party, establish collective
>>> leadership for collective responsibility, etc .
>>>
>>> On 13/09/2016, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi  wrote:
>>> > Cde Chargein
>>> >
>>> > Point taken, then what's your proposal to defactionalise and forge
>>> > principled unity?
>>> >
>>> > Regards
>>> > Nkrumah
>>> >
>>> > On 13 Sep 2016 13:34, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Comrade Nkrumah
>>> >>
>>> >> Sorry, I meant Bottom-up approach.
>>> >>
>>> >> The explanation you gave do not assist
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On 13 September 2016 at 

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-13 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Cde Chargein

Conference convened by who, when there are parallel NEC's?

Which Constitution become applicable to convene such a conference since
Mbinda-Moloto leadership faction follows it's own adopted in 2015 while
others follow GaMatlala 2000 Constitution?

Will PAM accede to follow PAC protocols?

Shango lashu

Nkrumah

On 13 Sep 2016 17:54, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:

> Comrade Nkrumah
>
> i made my proposal in the document i drafted. I believe a special
> unity conference or congress should be convened to do wholistic
> introspextion and maximum self-criticism and ceiticism as a party,
> learn lessons from our successes and failures, take drastic
> resolutions to uproot factiomalism in the party, disband all factions
> and NEC structures elected based on factions, develop Party-building
> programme to unite the Party into a great party, establish collective
> leadership for collective responsibility, etc .
>
> On 13/09/2016, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi  wrote:
> > Cde Chargein
> >
> > Point taken, then what's your proposal to defactionalise and forge
> > principled unity?
> >
> > Regards
> > Nkrumah
> >
> > On 13 Sep 2016 13:34, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
> >
> >> Comrade Nkrumah
> >>
> >> Sorry, I meant Bottom-up approach.
> >>
> >> The explanation you gave do not assist
> >>
> >>
> >> On 13 September 2016 at 12:07, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi <
> >> nrkgag...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Cde Chargin
> >> >
> >> > I expressed and explained bottom-up approach not a top-up approach,
> >> >
> >> > Top-up approach is when members converged for the first time for an
> >> > unity
> >> > conference hoping to resolve leadership factions in two days (48
> hours)
> >> and
> >> > also generate a PoA. Those who succeeds to attend a conference may
> lack
> >> > a
> >> > mandate thus represent their own individual jackets thus its highly
> >> elitist
> >> > since those with financial resources without branches nor mandates can
> >> > attend the conference .
> >> >
> >> > But the bottom-up approach is a members driven process hence the
> >> necessity
> >> > to defactionalise and forge unity from branches  and regional levels
> as
> >> > a
> >> > priority, thus members take full ownership to drive principled unity
> of
> >> the
> >> > PAC since members generate mandates and define the principles of party
> >> > unity; Bottom up approach is democratic and transparent programmatic
> >> > approach. In a bottom-up approach the individual base elements of the
> >> > system are first specified in great detail by members define the
> >> > problem
> >> > and formulate necessary interventions which constitutes a solution.
> >> > These
> >> > elements are then linked together to form larger subsystems, which
> then
> >> in
> >> > turn are linked, sometimes in many levels, until a complete top-level
> >> > system is formed. This strategy often resembles a "seed" model, by
> >> > which
> >> > the beginnings are small but eventually grow in complexity and
> >> > completeness. A "*bottom-up*" approach to changes one that works from
> >> > the  grassroots (members and branches)—from a large number of people
> >> > working together, through regular interaction they cause a decision to
> >> > arise from their joint involvement. A decision by a number of
> >> > activists,
> >> > students, or victims of some incident to take action is a "bottom-up"
> >> > decision. A bottom-up approach can be thought of as an incremental
> >> > change
> >> > approach that represents an emergent process cultivated and upheld
> >> > primarily by members.
> >> >
> >> > Direct (repeat) response you question on "holding two rallies in one
> >> > province and still claim unity in the PAC will be realized soon." Two
> >> > rallies are held as a consequence of parallel structures but if
> members
> >> per
> >> > region example if PAC members in Vaal region do meet at an inclusive
> >> > regional meeting and resolve not to attend rallies organised by what
> >> > factionalised leadership meaning members consciously resolves to
> >> > denounce
> >> > and boycott factionalised rallies, meetings and any gathering will
> >> catalyse
> >> > the collapse of factions. In Vaal and other regions, the following
> >> > bottom
> >> > up approach can used. We invited both Mbinda and Letlapa leaderships
> to
> >> an
> >> > inclusive annual regional conference in 2015 for a frank discussions
> on
> >> the
> >> > state of the party (effectively we either work with all of them
> >> > simultaneously or none of them) and also in PAC Johannesburg Region,
> >> > members took a resolution to remain pro-PAC and united around
> >> > principles
> >> > which defines PAC, thus the members resolved to denounce factionalism
> >> > and
> >> > boycott (not-attend) any (or all) factionalised rallies, meetings,
> >> > conference and events. In Johannesburg Regions, members have started
> >> > working together and are encouraged 

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-13 Thread Chargein Mabaso
Comrade Nkrumah

i made my proposal in the document i drafted. I believe a special
unity conference or congress should be convened to do wholistic
introspextion and maximum self-criticism and ceiticism as a party,
learn lessons from our successes and failures, take drastic
resolutions to uproot factiomalism in the party, disband all factions
and NEC structures elected based on factions, develop Party-building
programme to unite the Party into a great party, establish collective
leadership for collective responsibility, etc .

On 13/09/2016, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi  wrote:
> Cde Chargein
>
> Point taken, then what's your proposal to defactionalise and forge
> principled unity?
>
> Regards
> Nkrumah
>
> On 13 Sep 2016 13:34, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>
>> Comrade Nkrumah
>>
>> Sorry, I meant Bottom-up approach.
>>
>> The explanation you gave do not assist
>>
>>
>> On 13 September 2016 at 12:07, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi <
>> nrkgag...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Cde Chargin
>> >
>> > I expressed and explained bottom-up approach not a top-up approach,
>> >
>> > Top-up approach is when members converged for the first time for an
>> > unity
>> > conference hoping to resolve leadership factions in two days (48 hours)
>> and
>> > also generate a PoA. Those who succeeds to attend a conference may lack
>> > a
>> > mandate thus represent their own individual jackets thus its highly
>> elitist
>> > since those with financial resources without branches nor mandates can
>> > attend the conference .
>> >
>> > But the bottom-up approach is a members driven process hence the
>> necessity
>> > to defactionalise and forge unity from branches  and regional levels as
>> > a
>> > priority, thus members take full ownership to drive principled unity of
>> the
>> > PAC since members generate mandates and define the principles of party
>> > unity; Bottom up approach is democratic and transparent programmatic
>> > approach. In a bottom-up approach the individual base elements of the
>> > system are first specified in great detail by members define the
>> > problem
>> > and formulate necessary interventions which constitutes a solution.
>> > These
>> > elements are then linked together to form larger subsystems, which then
>> in
>> > turn are linked, sometimes in many levels, until a complete top-level
>> > system is formed. This strategy often resembles a "seed" model, by
>> > which
>> > the beginnings are small but eventually grow in complexity and
>> > completeness. A "*bottom-up*" approach to changes one that works from
>> > the  grassroots (members and branches)—from a large number of people
>> > working together, through regular interaction they cause a decision to
>> > arise from their joint involvement. A decision by a number of
>> > activists,
>> > students, or victims of some incident to take action is a "bottom-up"
>> > decision. A bottom-up approach can be thought of as an incremental
>> > change
>> > approach that represents an emergent process cultivated and upheld
>> > primarily by members.
>> >
>> > Direct (repeat) response you question on "holding two rallies in one
>> > province and still claim unity in the PAC will be realized soon." Two
>> > rallies are held as a consequence of parallel structures but if members
>> per
>> > region example if PAC members in Vaal region do meet at an inclusive
>> > regional meeting and resolve not to attend rallies organised by what
>> > factionalised leadership meaning members consciously resolves to
>> > denounce
>> > and boycott factionalised rallies, meetings and any gathering will
>> catalyse
>> > the collapse of factions. In Vaal and other regions, the following
>> > bottom
>> > up approach can used. We invited both Mbinda and Letlapa leaderships to
>> an
>> > inclusive annual regional conference in 2015 for a frank discussions on
>> the
>> > state of the party (effectively we either work with all of them
>> > simultaneously or none of them) and also in PAC Johannesburg Region,
>> > members took a resolution to remain pro-PAC and united around
>> > principles
>> > which defines PAC, thus the members resolved to denounce factionalism
>> > and
>> > boycott (not-attend) any (or all) factionalised rallies, meetings,
>> > conference and events. In Johannesburg Regions, members have started
>> > working together and are encouraged to organise regular inclusive
>> > branch
>> > meetings and inclusive regional meetings. All members are encouraged to
>> > return to their respective branches and belong to a unified PAC branch.
>> We
>> > as PAC members have taken the decisions to forge unity and rebuild
>> > party
>> > structures namely branches and regional structures which should
>> > propagate
>> > revolutionary Pan Africanism, Aims and Objectives of the PAC.  Regular
>> > inclusive regional meetings are held and we reach out to as many
>> > PAC (including PAM) members to attend and participate in party
>> (re)building
>> > programme.
>> >

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-13 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Cde Chargein

Point taken, then what's your proposal to defactionalise and forge
principled unity?

Regards
Nkrumah

On 13 Sep 2016 13:34, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:

> Comrade Nkrumah
>
> Sorry, I meant Bottom-up approach.
>
> The explanation you gave do not assist
>
>
> On 13 September 2016 at 12:07, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi <
> nrkgag...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Cde Chargin
> >
> > I expressed and explained bottom-up approach not a top-up approach,
> >
> > Top-up approach is when members converged for the first time for an unity
> > conference hoping to resolve leadership factions in two days (48 hours)
> and
> > also generate a PoA. Those who succeeds to attend a conference may lack a
> > mandate thus represent their own individual jackets thus its highly
> elitist
> > since those with financial resources without branches nor mandates can
> > attend the conference .
> >
> > But the bottom-up approach is a members driven process hence the
> necessity
> > to defactionalise and forge unity from branches  and regional levels as a
> > priority, thus members take full ownership to drive principled unity of
> the
> > PAC since members generate mandates and define the principles of party
> > unity; Bottom up approach is democratic and transparent programmatic
> > approach. In a bottom-up approach the individual base elements of the
> > system are first specified in great detail by members define the problem
> > and formulate necessary interventions which constitutes a solution. These
> > elements are then linked together to form larger subsystems, which then
> in
> > turn are linked, sometimes in many levels, until a complete top-level
> > system is formed. This strategy often resembles a "seed" model, by which
> > the beginnings are small but eventually grow in complexity and
> > completeness. A "*bottom-up*" approach to changes one that works from
> > the  grassroots (members and branches)—from a large number of people
> > working together, through regular interaction they cause a decision to
> > arise from their joint involvement. A decision by a number of activists,
> > students, or victims of some incident to take action is a "bottom-up"
> > decision. A bottom-up approach can be thought of as an incremental change
> > approach that represents an emergent process cultivated and upheld
> > primarily by members.
> >
> > Direct (repeat) response you question on "holding two rallies in one
> > province and still claim unity in the PAC will be realized soon." Two
> > rallies are held as a consequence of parallel structures but if members
> per
> > region example if PAC members in Vaal region do meet at an inclusive
> > regional meeting and resolve not to attend rallies organised by what
> > factionalised leadership meaning members consciously resolves to denounce
> > and boycott factionalised rallies, meetings and any gathering will
> catalyse
> > the collapse of factions. In Vaal and other regions, the following bottom
> > up approach can used. We invited both Mbinda and Letlapa leaderships to
> an
> > inclusive annual regional conference in 2015 for a frank discussions on
> the
> > state of the party (effectively we either work with all of them
> > simultaneously or none of them) and also in PAC Johannesburg Region,
> > members took a resolution to remain pro-PAC and united around principles
> > which defines PAC, thus the members resolved to denounce factionalism and
> > boycott (not-attend) any (or all) factionalised rallies, meetings,
> > conference and events. In Johannesburg Regions, members have started
> > working together and are encouraged to organise regular inclusive branch
> > meetings and inclusive regional meetings. All members are encouraged to
> > return to their respective branches and belong to a unified PAC branch.
> We
> > as PAC members have taken the decisions to forge unity and rebuild party
> > structures namely branches and regional structures which should propagate
> > revolutionary Pan Africanism, Aims and Objectives of the PAC.  Regular
> > inclusive regional meetings are held and we reach out to as many
> > PAC (including PAM) members to attend and participate in party
> (re)building
> > programme.
> >
> > [image: Figure 3. Top-down and bottom-up approach to problem solving.]
> > The next stage is coordinate a PAC 3rd Gauteng PAC Unity Consultative
> > Meeting, to consider a PAC Gauteng Provincial Unity Plan of Action.
> What's
> > fundamental is members must agree as to what constitute forged principled
> > unity and how to achieve it a provincial level, and how to monitor
> progress
> > to defactionalise the PAC and forge principled unity at a provincial
> level
> > meaning from branch to regional to provincial level.  Finally
> > organisationally we aim at a set of i
>
> --
> --
> Sending your posting to payco@googlegroups.com
>
> Unsubscribe by sending an email to payco-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>
> You can also visit 

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-13 Thread Chargein Mabaso
Comrade Nkrumah

Sorry, I meant Bottom-up approach.

The explanation you gave do not assist


On 13 September 2016 at 12:07, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi 
wrote:

> Cde Chargin
>
> I expressed and explained bottom-up approach not a top-up approach,
>
> Top-up approach is when members converged for the first time for an unity
> conference hoping to resolve leadership factions in two days (48 hours) and
> also generate a PoA. Those who succeeds to attend a conference may lack a
> mandate thus represent their own individual jackets thus its highly elitist
> since those with financial resources without branches nor mandates can
> attend the conference .
>
> But the bottom-up approach is a members driven process hence the necessity
> to defactionalise and forge unity from branches  and regional levels as a
> priority, thus members take full ownership to drive principled unity of the
> PAC since members generate mandates and define the principles of party
> unity; Bottom up approach is democratic and transparent programmatic
> approach. In a bottom-up approach the individual base elements of the
> system are first specified in great detail by members define the problem
> and formulate necessary interventions which constitutes a solution. These
> elements are then linked together to form larger subsystems, which then in
> turn are linked, sometimes in many levels, until a complete top-level
> system is formed. This strategy often resembles a "seed" model, by which
> the beginnings are small but eventually grow in complexity and
> completeness. A "*bottom-up*" approach to changes one that works from
> the  grassroots (members and branches)—from a large number of people
> working together, through regular interaction they cause a decision to
> arise from their joint involvement. A decision by a number of activists,
> students, or victims of some incident to take action is a "bottom-up"
> decision. A bottom-up approach can be thought of as an incremental change
> approach that represents an emergent process cultivated and upheld
> primarily by members.
>
> Direct (repeat) response you question on "holding two rallies in one
> province and still claim unity in the PAC will be realized soon." Two
> rallies are held as a consequence of parallel structures but if members per
> region example if PAC members in Vaal region do meet at an inclusive
> regional meeting and resolve not to attend rallies organised by what
> factionalised leadership meaning members consciously resolves to denounce
> and boycott factionalised rallies, meetings and any gathering will catalyse
> the collapse of factions. In Vaal and other regions, the following bottom
> up approach can used. We invited both Mbinda and Letlapa leaderships to an
> inclusive annual regional conference in 2015 for a frank discussions on the
> state of the party (effectively we either work with all of them
> simultaneously or none of them) and also in PAC Johannesburg Region,
> members took a resolution to remain pro-PAC and united around principles
> which defines PAC, thus the members resolved to denounce factionalism and
> boycott (not-attend) any (or all) factionalised rallies, meetings,
> conference and events. In Johannesburg Regions, members have started
> working together and are encouraged to organise regular inclusive branch
> meetings and inclusive regional meetings. All members are encouraged to
> return to their respective branches and belong to a unified PAC branch. We
> as PAC members have taken the decisions to forge unity and rebuild party
> structures namely branches and regional structures which should propagate
> revolutionary Pan Africanism, Aims and Objectives of the PAC.  Regular
> inclusive regional meetings are held and we reach out to as many
> PAC (including PAM) members to attend and participate in party (re)building
> programme.
>
> [image: Figure 3. Top-down and bottom-up approach to problem solving.]
> The next stage is coordinate a PAC 3rd Gauteng PAC Unity Consultative
> Meeting, to consider a PAC Gauteng Provincial Unity Plan of Action. What's
> fundamental is members must agree as to what constitute forged principled
> unity and how to achieve it a provincial level, and how to monitor progress
> to defactionalise the PAC and forge principled unity at a provincial level
> meaning from branch to regional to provincial level.  Finally
> organisationally we aim at a set of i

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Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-13 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Cde Chargin

I expressed and explained bottom-up approach not a top-up approach,

Top-up approach is when members converged for the first time for an unity
conference hoping to resolve leadership factions in two days (48 hours) and
also generate a PoA. Those who succeeds to attend a conference may lack a
mandate thus represent their own individual jackets thus its highly elitist
since those with financial resources without branches nor mandates can
attend the conference .

But the bottom-up approach is a members driven process hence the necessity
to defactionalise and forge unity from branches  and regional levels as a
priority, thus members take full ownership to drive principled unity of the
PAC since members generate mandates and define the principles of party
unity; Bottom up approach is democratic and transparent programmatic
approach. In a bottom-up approach the individual base elements of the
system are first specified in great detail by members define the problem
and formulate necessary interventions which constitutes a solution. These
elements are then linked together to form larger subsystems, which then in
turn are linked, sometimes in many levels, until a complete top-level
system is formed. This strategy often resembles a "seed" model, by which
the beginnings are small but eventually grow in complexity and
completeness. A "*bottom-up*" approach to changes one that works from the
grassroots (members and branches)—from a large number of people working
together, through regular interaction they cause a decision to arise from
their joint involvement. A decision by a number of activists, students, or
victims of some incident to take action is a "bottom-up" decision. A
bottom-up approach can be thought of as an incremental change approach that
represents an emergent process cultivated and upheld primarily by members.

Direct (repeat) response you question on "holding two rallies in one
province and still claim unity in the PAC will be realized soon." Two
rallies are held as a consequence of parallel structures but if members per
region example if PAC members in Vaal region do meet at an inclusive
regional meeting and resolve not to attend rallies organised by what
factionalised leadership meaning members consciously resolves to denounce
and boycott factionalised rallies, meetings and any gathering will catalyse
the collapse of factions. In Vaal and other regions, the following bottom
up approach can used. We invited both Mbinda and Letlapa leaderships to an
inclusive annual regional conference in 2015 for a frank discussions on the
state of the party (effectively we either work with all of them
simultaneously or none of them) and also in PAC Johannesburg Region,
members took a resolution to remain pro-PAC and united around principles
which defines PAC, thus the members resolved to denounce factionalism and
boycott (not-attend) any (or all) factionalised rallies, meetings,
conference and events. In Johannesburg Regions, members have started
working together and are encouraged to organise regular inclusive branch
meetings and inclusive regional meetings. All members are encouraged to
return to their respective branches and belong to a unified PAC branch. We
as PAC members have taken the decisions to forge unity and rebuild party
structures namely branches and regional structures which should propagate
revolutionary Pan Africanism, Aims and Objectives of the PAC.  Regular
inclusive regional meetings are held and we reach out to as many
PAC (including PAM) members to attend and participate in party (re)building
programme.

[image: Figure 3. Top-down and bottom-up approach to problem solving.]
The next stage is coordinate a PAC 3rd Gauteng PAC Unity Consultative
Meeting, to consider a PAC Gauteng Provincial Unity Plan of Action. What's
fundamental is members must agree as to what constitute forged principled
unity and how to achieve it a provincial level, and how to monitor progress
to defactionalise the PAC and forge principled unity at a provincial level
meaning from branch to regional to provincial level.  Finally
organisationally we aim at a set of interrelated components which interact
with one another in an organised fashion towards a common purpose’, thus
bottom up (not top up) approach as a systemic approach includes a set of
activities that lead and control the overall design, implementation and
integration of a complex set of interacting components.

Shango lashu
Nkrumah

On 13 September 2016 at 10:20, Chargein Mabaso 
wrote:

> Comrade Nkrumah
>
> Does it mean your Top-up approach cannot address a typical case prevailing
> in the Vaal which is currently happening in the Party throughout the
> country. I am still waiting for your response on this issue and the reason
> for holding two rallies in one province and still claim unity in the PAC
> will be realized soon.
>
> Let’s turn to the concept of factions or factionalism.
>
> ln a political party, a faction is simply a 

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-13 Thread Chargein Mabaso
Comrade Nkrumah

Does it mean your Top-up approach cannot address a typical case prevailing
in the Vaal which is currently happening in the Party throughout the
country. I am still waiting for your response on this issue and the reason
for holding two rallies in one province and still claim unity in the PAC
will be realized soon.

Let’s turn to the concept of factions or factionalism.

ln a political party, a faction is simply a group of individuals with a
common political purpose and is sometimes referred to as a power bloc or
even a caucus in its embryonic stage. All the current factions in the PAC
started as legitimate caucuses, not necessary full blown factions. We
learned later that all caucuses are nothing but factions in their embryonic
stage, whether ideological or leadership factions. The main aim of any
faction is to advance a particular policy or policy agenda and/or
preventing the adoption of alternative policies and supporting given
individuals to position of power within the organisationto represent and
advance the faction’s agenda. A faction can also be based around supporting
a given person, a leader, to be elected into leadership position. The
former is the ideological faction and the latter is leadership faction.

For example, the Africanists were an ideological faction within the ANC in
the 1950s. They developed the revolutionary Nation-Building Programme and
forced it down the throat of the reformist ANC Old Guards during the ANC
National Conference held in Bloemfontein in 1949. The ANC adopted the
Programme of Action after a fierce political battle and the Old Guard later
regurgitated it in 1955. Whoever wanted to be voted to lead the ANC in the
1949 ANC Bloemfontein Conference as its President was required as a
prerequisite to accept and endorse the Programme of Action and commit
himself/her to uphold the Programme in his/her term of office. The
Africanist faction fought fireless to opposed the ANC adoption of Freedom
Charter in 1955. Unlike the Africanist ideological faction, the PAC
factions formed after the 1993 Umtata Conference up to today were and are
still the leadership factions, not ideological factions. They were or are
still based on around supporting a given person to the PAC President based
on the Messiah mentality. e.g.. Dr. Mogoba, Dr Pheko, Maxwell
Nemadzhivhanani, Letlapa Mphahlele, Thami Plaatjie, Luthando Mbinda,
Mphethi, etc. Malema’s faction within the ANCYL focused all its efforts on
one policy issue, nationalization of key economic sectors of the South
African economy (mines, banks, big industries, etc) so as to assume the
status of an ideological faction within the ANC just like the Africanists
to avoid being reduced into a mere leadership faction like the current PAC
factions. The T.M. Ntantala’s faction in exile also assumed the status of
an ideological faction whose proposed policy positions were enshrined in
the New Road of Revolution. The Revolutionary Watchdogs tried to assume a
policy stand too against the Constituent Assembly in the pre-1994 era just
like T.M. Ntatala and Malema’s factions within the PAC and ANC,
respectively.

The point is Clause 15 of the PAC Disciplinary Code refers leadership
faction, not to ideological factions. Ideological factions are healthy in
any active political party. They are an indication of dynamism in the
political life of an organisation. It must be encouraged at all times.
Without ideological struggles, the Party will degenerate, both politically
and ideologically.

So far we have all failed to form ideological factions within the PAC in
the post-1994 era of the New Democracy. We have all not outgrown leadership
factions. That is why some of us resist the disbandment of current
leadership factions. We need PAC unity to avail the opportunity for the
realignment of revolutionary and progressive forces both inside and outside
the PAC based on a minimum programme (agreed upon policies or policy
agenda). We can call it an Africanist or Socialist Agenda and constitute
ourselves into a Revolutionary Vanguard or Revolutionary Pan Africanists or
Africanist Socialist Democrats to advocate for an Africanist Socialist
Democracy proposed by the founders of PAC . That is, we must follow
steadfastly on the footsteps of Robert Mangaliso Sobukwe and Dr. Kwame
Nkrumah, not leaders of current leadership factions.

I hope I made my point clear on the concept of factions.



Izwe Lethu!

On 12 September 2016 at 18:57, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi 
wrote:

> Cde Chargein
>
> I requested that you define and describe factionalism and factions for us,
> this will assist to move from the same wavelength.
>
> There are members who resolved not to attend any event and meetings which
> furthers factionalism. These are members keen to forge unity and are
> working with other party members, thus parallel structures are on a decline
> in many parts of Gauteng. The dying parallel structures will logically lead
> to PAC hosting one 

RE: [PAYCO]

2016-09-13 Thread Sebenzile Mlaza
  




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Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-12 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Cde Chargein

I requested that you define and describe factionalism and factions for us,
this will assist to move from the same wavelength.

There are members who resolved not to attend any event and meetings which
furthers factionalism. These are members keen to forge unity and are
working with other party members, thus parallel structures are on a decline
in many parts of Gauteng. The dying parallel structures will logically lead
to PAC hosting one inclusive party events, we can't oversimplify the task
to forge principled unity and defactionalise the party it's an internal
struggle in it's own nature given the ideological contradictions prevalent
within the party.

The decisive battle to be won it's when party members in mass reject and
denounce factional gatherings including a factional leaders and the same
members resort to forge unity from their respective areas and build from
that base.

Shango lashu
Nkrumah

On 12 Sep 2016 18:34, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:

> Comrade Nkrumah
>
> Theory is only good if it can address praxtical problems. You did
> explain how will your Bottom-up approach can solve current dilema in
> the Vaal. You did expolain why in Gaung there are two PAC rallIes
> whenever the Party commemorates important days in its calender if your
> apporoach works. You are two factions. That is clear. A united PAC in
> Gauteng is expected to hold one rally,, not two or more on the same
> day. May be there is lack of understanding of factions and
> factionalism here or defence of factionalism. That is another debate
> on its own.
>
> On 12/09/2016, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi  wrote:
> > Cde Chargein
> >
> > We run the risk to label everything and effort as a faction, please 1.
> > define and describe a faction.
> >
> > Secondly, it's evident we disagree on the approach to forge principled
> > unity. We advocate a Bottom-up approach which has proven itself to be
> most
> > effective to defactionalise, reconcile and forge unity in the PAC
> starting
> > from branch level leading to national level- national conference to
> > consolidate and create a PoA. Among many ingredients the bottom-Up
> approach
> > is Inclusive Branch and regional meetings to forge unity should be
> > facilitated by members accepted by such that the unification process is
> > credible and has integrity.  A party unification process which is members
> > centred and members driven premised on the very same principle of
> > Democratic Centralism.
> >
> > As opposed to members who are highly factionalised meeting for the first
> > time at a national conference hoping to achieve unity in less 48 hours
> > national conference.
> >
> > Shango lashu
> >
> > On 12 Sep 2016 16:42, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
> >
> >> Comrade Nkrumah
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The Top-up approach sounds good in theory but not in practice. The
> >> Marxist philosophy of dialectical materialism *“…emphasizes the
> >> dependence of theory on practice, emphasizes that theory is based on
> >> practice and in turn serves practice.”* [*Mao Tse Tung on Theory and
> >> Practice*]. Theory does not serve itself. The same applies to natural
> >> science and our current challenge to unite the PAC. That is, the
> >> correctness of the Top-up approach should be based on practice. Ours is
> >> to
> >> be put the Top-up approach on test through practice.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Let’s take, for example, the Vaal area as a typical case in hand. The
> >> Top-up approach assumes (makes hypothesis that) if comrade Apa Pooe (who
> >> belongs to Mphahlele faction) convenes a branch or regional meeting
> today
> >> that such a meeting will be attended by comrade Nthate (who belongs to
> >> Mbinda-Moloto faction) without any tensions ending up to verbal attacks
> >> and
> >> physical fights. That is incorrect. In the same meeting comrade
> >> Solundwane
> >> or Mabaso, a PAM member, are also expected to attend that meeting
> without
> >> tensions simmering. The same is true if the meeting is convened by cde
> >> Nthate or cde Mabaso. The meeting will fuel unnecessary tensions and
> will
> >> be a recipe for more conflict than unity. Remember all these factions
> >> still
> >> have scores to settle which are still there. They are gone just because
> >> of
> >> the talk for unity. In the same meeting convened by APA Pooe, President
> >> Mphahlele will be invited to address the meeting as a PAC President as
> it
> >> is the case now in every funeral chaired by his faction. If the meeting
> >> is
> >> called by cde Nthate, President Mbinda or Moloto will also be invited to
> >> address the meeting as the PAC President or Secretary General.  The same
> >> applies to President Maseko. He will address the meeting as a PAM
> >> President
> >> too. That will be confusion at its best, if not madness.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> All these comrades believe they were and are still correct in their
> views
> >> and acts. I personally believe our 

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-12 Thread Chargein Mabaso
Comrade Nkrumah

Theory is only good if it can address praxtical problems. You did
explain how will your Bottom-up approach can solve current dilema in
the Vaal. You did expolain why in Gaung there are two PAC rallIes
whenever the Party commemorates important days in its calender if your
apporoach works. You are two factions. That is clear. A united PAC in
Gauteng is expected to hold one rally,, not two or more on the same
day. May be there is lack of understanding of factions and
factionalism here or defence of factionalism. That is another debate
on its own.

On 12/09/2016, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi  wrote:
> Cde Chargein
>
> We run the risk to label everything and effort as a faction, please 1.
> define and describe a faction.
>
> Secondly, it's evident we disagree on the approach to forge principled
> unity. We advocate a Bottom-up approach which has proven itself to be most
> effective to defactionalise, reconcile and forge unity in the PAC starting
> from branch level leading to national level- national conference to
> consolidate and create a PoA. Among many ingredients the bottom-Up approach
> is Inclusive Branch and regional meetings to forge unity should be
> facilitated by members accepted by such that the unification process is
> credible and has integrity.  A party unification process which is members
> centred and members driven premised on the very same principle of
> Democratic Centralism.
>
> As opposed to members who are highly factionalised meeting for the first
> time at a national conference hoping to achieve unity in less 48 hours
> national conference.
>
> Shango lashu
>
> On 12 Sep 2016 16:42, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>
>> Comrade Nkrumah
>>
>>
>>
>> The Top-up approach sounds good in theory but not in practice. The
>> Marxist philosophy of dialectical materialism *“…emphasizes the
>> dependence of theory on practice, emphasizes that theory is based on
>> practice and in turn serves practice.”* [*Mao Tse Tung on Theory and
>> Practice*]. Theory does not serve itself. The same applies to natural
>> science and our current challenge to unite the PAC. That is, the
>> correctness of the Top-up approach should be based on practice. Ours is
>> to
>> be put the Top-up approach on test through practice.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let’s take, for example, the Vaal area as a typical case in hand. The
>> Top-up approach assumes (makes hypothesis that) if comrade Apa Pooe (who
>> belongs to Mphahlele faction) convenes a branch or regional meeting today
>> that such a meeting will be attended by comrade Nthate (who belongs to
>> Mbinda-Moloto faction) without any tensions ending up to verbal attacks
>> and
>> physical fights. That is incorrect. In the same meeting comrade
>> Solundwane
>> or Mabaso, a PAM member, are also expected to attend that meeting without
>> tensions simmering. The same is true if the meeting is convened by cde
>> Nthate or cde Mabaso. The meeting will fuel unnecessary tensions and will
>> be a recipe for more conflict than unity. Remember all these factions
>> still
>> have scores to settle which are still there. They are gone just because
>> of
>> the talk for unity. In the same meeting convened by APA Pooe, President
>> Mphahlele will be invited to address the meeting as a PAC President as it
>> is the case now in every funeral chaired by his faction. If the meeting
>> is
>> called by cde Nthate, President Mbinda or Moloto will also be invited to
>> address the meeting as the PAC President or Secretary General.  The same
>> applies to President Maseko. He will address the meeting as a PAM
>> President
>> too. That will be confusion at its best, if not madness.
>>
>>
>>
>> All these comrades believe they were and are still correct in their views
>> and acts. I personally believe our decision to form PAM was correct. I
>> still maintain my views till now. I need to be told that it was wrong.
>> The
>> same is true for Pooe and Nthate. They also believe they were and are
>> still
>> right. Even you comrade Nkrumah you believe you were and are still
>> correct
>> in your own views and acts. That is why there is the need for a special
>> conference or congress to iron out our differences, once and for all. We
>> need to be brutal frank to each other We are not in a revolution to nurse
>> each other’s egos and feelings. If we were all wrong we must be told in
>> no
>> uncertain terms to avoid the repeat of the same mistakes in the future.
>> All
>> these factions must admit they were wrong based on the PAC Basic
>> Documents
>> and be prepared to correct their attitudes and promise not to repeat the
>> same mistakes again. To cover up our wrongdoings  will be disservice to
>> PAC
>> and the revolution. We must all be prepared to take full responsibility
>> for
>> all our actions, not certain people. No one is exempted from making
>> mistakes in the revolution. I want to see that day whose hands are clean
>> in
>> the current crisis.
>>
>>
>>
>> As 

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-12 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Cde Chargein

We run the risk to label everything and effort as a faction, please 1.
define and describe a faction.

Secondly, it's evident we disagree on the approach to forge principled
unity. We advocate a Bottom-up approach which has proven itself to be most
effective to defactionalise, reconcile and forge unity in the PAC starting
from branch level leading to national level- national conference to
consolidate and create a PoA. Among many ingredients the bottom-Up approach
is Inclusive Branch and regional meetings to forge unity should be
facilitated by members accepted by such that the unification process is
credible and has integrity.  A party unification process which is members
centred and members driven premised on the very same principle of
Democratic Centralism.

As opposed to members who are highly factionalised meeting for the first
time at a national conference hoping to achieve unity in less 48 hours
national conference.

Shango lashu

On 12 Sep 2016 16:42, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:

> Comrade Nkrumah
>
>
>
> The Top-up approach sounds good in theory but not in practice. The
> Marxist philosophy of dialectical materialism *“…emphasizes the
> dependence of theory on practice, emphasizes that theory is based on
> practice and in turn serves practice.”* [*Mao Tse Tung on Theory and
> Practice*]. Theory does not serve itself. The same applies to natural
> science and our current challenge to unite the PAC. That is, the
> correctness of the Top-up approach should be based on practice. Ours is to
> be put the Top-up approach on test through practice.
>
>
>
> Let’s take, for example, the Vaal area as a typical case in hand. The
> Top-up approach assumes (makes hypothesis that) if comrade Apa Pooe (who
> belongs to Mphahlele faction) convenes a branch or regional meeting today
> that such a meeting will be attended by comrade Nthate (who belongs to
> Mbinda-Moloto faction) without any tensions ending up to verbal attacks and
> physical fights. That is incorrect. In the same meeting comrade Solundwane
> or Mabaso, a PAM member, are also expected to attend that meeting without
> tensions simmering. The same is true if the meeting is convened by cde
> Nthate or cde Mabaso. The meeting will fuel unnecessary tensions and will
> be a recipe for more conflict than unity. Remember all these factions still
> have scores to settle which are still there. They are gone just because of
> the talk for unity. In the same meeting convened by APA Pooe, President
> Mphahlele will be invited to address the meeting as a PAC President as it
> is the case now in every funeral chaired by his faction. If the meeting is
> called by cde Nthate, President Mbinda or Moloto will also be invited to
> address the meeting as the PAC President or Secretary General.  The same
> applies to President Maseko. He will address the meeting as a PAM President
> too. That will be confusion at its best, if not madness.
>
>
>
> All these comrades believe they were and are still correct in their views
> and acts. I personally believe our decision to form PAM was correct. I
> still maintain my views till now. I need to be told that it was wrong. The
> same is true for Pooe and Nthate. They also believe they were and are still
> right. Even you comrade Nkrumah you believe you were and are still correct
> in your own views and acts. That is why there is the need for a special
> conference or congress to iron out our differences, once and for all. We
> need to be brutal frank to each other We are not in a revolution to nurse
> each other’s egos and feelings. If we were all wrong we must be told in no
> uncertain terms to avoid the repeat of the same mistakes in the future. All
> these factions must admit they were wrong based on the PAC Basic Documents
> and be prepared to correct their attitudes and promise not to repeat the
> same mistakes again. To cover up our wrongdoings  will be disservice to PAC
> and the revolution. We must all be prepared to take full responsibility for
> all our actions, not certain people. No one is exempted from making
> mistakes in the revolution. I want to see that day whose hands are clean in
> the current crisis.
>
>
>
> As revolutionaries, we must not afraid of criticism. Let’s practice what
> we preach. Those who are opposed to the conference or congress are scared
> of maximum self-criticism and criticism. They are afraid to to correct
> their mistakes and are prepared to repeat them. They are cowards who always
> want to appear clean.
>
>
>
> The Top-up approach will definitely complicate matters. Let’s accept it.
>
>
>
> Currently, PAM members have experienced strange treatment at all unity
> meetings organised at branch, regional and provincial level by any faction.
> They are told to first disband PAM before unity is discussed or recognised
> within the PAC. Funny enough, the same does not apply to PAC factions which
> are multiplying day by day. WHY? The reasons are those factions do 

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-12 Thread Chargein Mabaso
Comrade Nkrumah



The Top-up approach sounds good in theory but not in practice. The Marxist
philosophy of dialectical materialism *“…emphasizes the dependence of
theory on practice, emphasizes that theory is based on practice and in turn
serves practice.”* [*Mao Tse Tung on Theory and Practice*]. Theory does not
serve itself. The same applies to natural science and our current challenge
to unite the PAC. That is, the correctness of the Top-up approach should be
based on practice. Ours is to be put the Top-up approach on test through
practice.



Let’s take, for example, the Vaal area as a typical case in hand. The
Top-up approach assumes (makes hypothesis that) if comrade Apa Pooe (who
belongs to Mphahlele faction) convenes a branch or regional meeting today
that such a meeting will be attended by comrade Nthate (who belongs to
Mbinda-Moloto faction) without any tensions ending up to verbal attacks and
physical fights. That is incorrect. In the same meeting comrade Solundwane
or Mabaso, a PAM member, are also expected to attend that meeting without
tensions simmering. The same is true if the meeting is convened by cde
Nthate or cde Mabaso. The meeting will fuel unnecessary tensions and will
be a recipe for more conflict than unity. Remember all these factions still
have scores to settle which are still there. They are gone just because of
the talk for unity. In the same meeting convened by APA Pooe, President
Mphahlele will be invited to address the meeting as a PAC President as it
is the case now in every funeral chaired by his faction. If the meeting is
called by cde Nthate, President Mbinda or Moloto will also be invited to
address the meeting as the PAC President or Secretary General.  The same
applies to President Maseko. He will address the meeting as a PAM President
too. That will be confusion at its best, if not madness.



All these comrades believe they were and are still correct in their views
and acts. I personally believe our decision to form PAM was correct. I
still maintain my views till now. I need to be told that it was wrong. The
same is true for Pooe and Nthate. They also believe they were and are still
right. Even you comrade Nkrumah you believe you were and are still correct
in your own views and acts. That is why there is the need for a special
conference or congress to iron out our differences, once and for all. We
need to be brutal frank to each other We are not in a revolution to nurse
each other’s egos and feelings. If we were all wrong we must be told in no
uncertain terms to avoid the repeat of the same mistakes in the future. All
these factions must admit they were wrong based on the PAC Basic Documents
and be prepared to correct their attitudes and promise not to repeat the
same mistakes again. To cover up our wrongdoings  will be disservice to PAC
and the revolution. We must all be prepared to take full responsibility for
all our actions, not certain people. No one is exempted from making
mistakes in the revolution. I want to see that day whose hands are clean in
the current crisis.



As revolutionaries, we must not afraid of criticism. Let’s practice what we
preach. Those who are opposed to the conference or congress are scared of
maximum self-criticism and criticism. They are afraid to to correct their
mistakes and are prepared to repeat them. They are cowards who always want
to appear clean.



The Top-up approach will definitely complicate matters. Let’s accept it.



Currently, PAM members have experienced strange treatment at all unity
meetings organised at branch, regional and provincial level by any faction.
They are told to first disband PAM before unity is discussed or recognised
within the PAC. Funny enough, the same does not apply to PAC factions which
are multiplying day by day. WHY? The reasons are those factions do not
believe there is crisis within the PAC and those socalled unity talks are
between PAM and one of the PAC factions, not between PAM and one, united
PAC. It is either between PAM and Mphahlele’s faction or Mbinda’s faction
or the new PAC faction formed, consciously or unconsciously, around Gauteng
which normally have rallies around Soweto not attending rallies organised
by Mbinda-Moloto’s faction. What do you call such meetings? They are
nothing but an attempt to consolidate individual factions turning them into
super-factions instead of uniting PAC. That is the true meaning of the
Top-up approach.



The Top-up approach is also doomed to fail. It will reach its political
cul-de-sac sooner than expected. It’s a waste of time and fruitless
exercise. It must be treated as such.



A new approach is needed if we are serious about PAC unity. A principled,
scientific approach based on the 1959 Basic Documents is the only solution
to the current PAC crisis. All factions and parties must, first, be
disbanded at a conference or congress level, not only PAM. That is what all
PAC factions do not want. A new leadership must be put in place based on

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-09 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Comrade Charge-in



Factionalism within the party which has exhibited itself in many ills such
as the parallel National Leadership structures including other party
structures, is a manifestation of both the ideo-political and organisation
degeneration, primarily degeneration of the branches and members of the
PAC, hence the rot and decay we see.



Legitimacy of any leadership is derived from popular explicit and implicit
consent of the governed (members and branches) acting through, and as
determined and prescribed by the PAC Constitution and Disciplinary
Code. Whether
a leadership has authority, in the sense that members and branches obey its
instructions and laws, we can ask whether it(leadership) has legitimacy.
The term legitimate comes from the Latin for ‘lawful’. In the most basic
sense, a national leadership is legitimate if it exists and operates
according to the law in this case PAC Constitution and Disciplinary Code
thus enjoy full support and recognition of members and branches. Branches
are the party's basic blocks, they are a determining factor of unity or
perpetuation of factions, if they are strong or weak. If the majority or
ideally all members and branches withdraw their recognition and association
of any national leadership then no-one leadership can claim legitimacy.



Weak branches and members are susceptible to evil influences, hence the
feuding parallel National Leaderships thrives on the basis of an
ideologically weak, confused and divided membership and/or branches. Acting
outside of the PAC Constitution and Disciplinary code, the feuding
leaderships uses and exploit differences of whatever nature prevalent among
members and/or branches thus coordinate and recognise those members and/or
branches who legitimizes it, this then make an illegitimate leadership
by default become legitimate.



Unified members acting through their Branches constitutes the basic
building blocks of the party as per the party disciplinary code. If a
branch based members disagree and they operate outside the party
constitution and disciplinary code,  and their
disagreements persistently remain unresolved such an internal environment
will either breed factionalism or create a fertile ground for factionalism
to prevail.



Bottom-up implies refers to party members centred and driven unity process
to defactionalise the party from the branch level to regional level etc.
Acting within the principle of democratic centralism, inclusive branch
meetings composed of all PAC members drawn across feuding groupings and
also inclusive inter-branch regional meetings equally composed of all
members drawn from feuding groupings, PAM and any other PAC members seeking
principled unity has proven to e the most effective method to
defactionalise and forge principled unity; such regular meetings, political
classes included  are coordinated and organised to take place on regular
basis (example monthly).



Our Party is not simply an aggregate of individual members. It is a
unified, organic body established according to a definite principle. It is
a composite of its leaders and its rank and file. The Party as an
organization at all levels and the broad body of the membership and it has
been established in accordance with a definite principle, that is,
democratic centralism in the Party.



·Organise regular all members inclusive branch meetings;

·Reconstitute branches and operate within party constitution and
disciplinary code;

·Organise regular all members regional meetings;

·Reconstitute regions and operate within the party constitution and
disciplinary code;

·Organise ideological and political workshops on regular basis at
regional and provincial level;

·Initiate and organise mass based community struggles;

·Organise regular all inclusive provincial meetings to consolidate
unity with common purpose and consolidate gains made;

·Approach the PAC national unity conference from a position of
unity achieved from the bottom to top, that is branches to regional then
provincial;



Avoid attending and convening national conferences coming from your
branches and regions being divided and highly factionalised, instead
approach national unity conference from a position where concrete steps and
actions has been taken, gains had been to forge principle unity from the
branch level moving upward.


If P .A.C. wants to forge ahead, it must adopt and carry out this principle
with firmness and thoroughness. To address and root out Factionalism which
the party basic documents has concluded that “Factionalism is the enemy of
solidarity and unity of action”, the Party basic documents also concludes
that “to destroy it (factionalism) at its roots, maximum self-criticism
should be encouraged within the movement. A movement that adopts democratic
centralism in its approach to its organizational problems will know how to
deal with the virus of factionalism”. And that “Where the 

Re: [PAYCO]

2016-09-08 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Cde Charge in

Thanks for the document which I perused, your critique of Top Down and
Bottom Up strategies fails to recognise the solutions presented or arising
from each strategy and also that both strategies are capable to converge as
long as there the two strategies are not executed from an antagonist
initiators.

Please note: Not all PAC Branches and regions have parallel structures, in
some areas parallel structures have collapsed, this present a space to
rebuild ftom the bottom.

I suggest a session to exchange ideas on your paper.

Shango lashu
Nkrumah

On 8 Sep 2016 13:28, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:

> Ma-Afrika
>
> Please find the attached document as my objective contribution to the
> debate on unity talks within the Pan Africanist camp. It is my sincere hope
> that the contribution will kick-start the derailed talks into motion in the
> right direction.
>
> Izwe Lethu!
>
> .
>
> --
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Re: [PAYCO] PAC and the Court Ruling

2016-08-18 Thread Chargein Mabaso
MAfrika, Good day.

The current political developments in our country at the moment have open a
new opportunity for Pan Africanists to go back to the drawing board and do
some serious introspection. The current voter apathy, poor PAC/PAM
performance  and the politics of coalitions after the recent local
government elections say a lot to any serious-minded political party still
wishing to continue to exist and survive in the current turbulent political
situation in South Africa. We are entering interesting times in the history
of our country. The developments send a clear message to all of us about
the coming National Elections in 2019. We must do something now or forget
about making impact in 2019. We must position ourselves now to be either
the ruling party, or the official opposition, or  a kingmaker in 2019. It
is our chance as a monolithic united party not factions and breakaway
parties. If we are serious enough, we can make it. If not, serious-minded
Pan Africanists should come together and form one voice like the EFF did.
We cannot waste our precious time with nicetime clowns who are paying
lip-service to unity whilst inwardly opposed to it. Let's give them the
last chance up to the end of September 2016 and kiss and say goodbye
to unity talks.Get me right: A united PAC can be an ideal situation. A
united PAC can become the ruling party in 2019. It is possible. It is no
longer a pie in the sky. If PAC unity is not achievable in our lifetime
because of some political turncoats in our midst, it's bad luck. Mafrika,
we must ask ourselves why voters prefer to vote for everyone else (every
Jack and Jill) but not Pan Africanists. They also vote for independents but
not us, WHY? We must answer that question. Other parties are having
sleepless nights positioning themselves strategically for 2019. Pan
Africanists will from now onward be busy fighting each otherin courts of
law  instead of closing ranks and position themselves to occupy the
existing political vacuum in our country. Many of the people who did not
vote do not associate themselves with the current political stream (ANC, DA
and EFF). They have no political home.In the meantime, we are aloof and
divorced from the masses but not PASMA. PASMA is deeply involved is student
politics. The question is: did PASMA vote in the local elections? Which
party they voted for? Remember: I said some PASMA members belong to other
political parties, not necessary to PAC as many people wish us to believe,
unlike PASO we launched in 1989. Comrades, we cannot expect to be voted
into power if we do not lead the masses in their daily struggles where
 they are fighting for their bread and butter issues in their communities
and workplaces through civic movements, trade unions, youth organisations,
etc. We cannot avoid theses questions for too long if we are serious about
wining power. Did NACTU affiliates vote in these elections? Which party
they voted for? Where is Maqhekeni? I only saw him on TV with ANC ministers
Pravin Gordon. Is he still a PAC member like Sdumo of Cosatu is an ANC
member? Something is wrong somewhere? Where is Narius Moloto as NACTU
Secretary General? Is he still a PAC member? Where is NACTU they lead?
Which party NACTU members voted for? These are the difficult questions we
must ask a conference or bosberaad? All these comrades should account if
they are deployed by the Party in NACTU and PASMA. We cannot call them to
account if they are there for themselves. I talk from experience. We were
instructed by Zeph Mothopeng to launch PASO and we accounted to him and to
PAC leadership accordingly for PASO activities, not to ourselves. We were
at one stage instructed to recruit PASO members to join PAC and APLA, and
we did just that. That is why we adopted the slogan, "PASO By Day, APLA By
Night!" What is wrong with PASMA, PAYCO, and NACTU? Where are they
accounting to, to themselves? Hayi khona Something must be done.
.COSATU, ANCYL, SASCO and SANCO are all accounting to the ANC leadership.
If they cannot acount to our Party, we must disband them and launch new
ones. That is it. We cannot have fellow travelers in politics. .

The truth is: We have all failed the Party in one way or another, even for
not asking ourselves the right questions. .


Mafrika, bourgeois mentality of relying on campaigns just few weeks before
elections does not work. I did not work for the past 22 years. When are we
going to learn it? Are we so dumb to learn from our past mistakes? Let's
wake up from the political stupor. other parties are wide awake except
us..PAC grew overnight after the Status and Positive Action Camapains. It
also grew in strength after the launch of AZANYU and PASO. It did not grow
because of posters, TV shows, etc. Mass action is what counts, not mass
demonstration. The chaos caused by EFF in parliament and land grabs is
paying dividends now. It has opted to play opposition role in the coalition
politics so as to continue creating chaos and havoc in 

Re: [PAYCO] PAC and the Court Ruling

2016-08-16 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
PASMA as a PAC Component structure continues to lead students mass
agitation in regard to fees must fall.

Nkrumah

On 15 August 2016 at 12:55, Mphiri Masoga  wrote:

> Good Morning MaAfrika
>
> What happened to PASMA AND ARM?
>
> Regards,
>
> *electronically send no signed - authentic *
>
> Mphiri Masoga
> SACWU
> T (012) 320 6472 - 5
> F (012) 320 2179
> F2email: 086 225 4254
> Email: mphi...@gmail.com
> C 073 182 2656
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 12:19 PM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi <
> nrkgag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 10 February 2012 at 11:26, Chargein Mabaso 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Comrades
>>>
>>> Letlapa lost the court appeal. We have been proved right on the
>>> violation of the PAC. But, who will bell the cat within the PAC, and
>>> how? Let's wait and see. Power struggles and smear campaigns that
>>> always divide the Pan Africanist camp will now show its ugly face
>>> instead of focusing at the mammoth task at hand. Some snubbing has
>>> already started.
>>>
>>> Good luck, noble sons and daughters of Soil. You are now facing a big
>>> test. Only men and women of vision can shoulder this huge
>>> responsibility successfully. We are watching you keenly. Kazi ukuba
>>> izozala nkomoni?
>>>
>>> Izwe Lethu!
>>>
>>> Charge-in Mabaso
>>> Ex- PASO Veteran
>>> 0710203554
>>>
>>> On 2/6/12, mmas...@webmail.co.za  wrote:
>>> > The outcome of the Court proceedings in the matter pertaining to the
>>> > legality of the Alice Congress was as interesting as has been the many
>>> other
>>> > legal fracas the PAC has had to endure over the years.
>>> >
>>> > Whilst this is continued evidence of the Party leadership s inability
>>> to
>>> > find the key driving anchors, there is another dimension I find
>>> attractive
>>> > for analysis. The dimension of leadership, and a point has to be made
>>> here
>>> > that whilst leadership is the single most important glue for
>>> organisational
>>> > viability, there are many other variables that hold sway to a party s
>>> > direction and success.
>>> >
>>> > And whilst I welcome the Court decision and it must be said well done
>>> to the
>>> > engineers of it, I must admit that I was not an inch surprised of this
>>> > ruling. My preoccupation is on something else I will share later on,
>>> herein.
>>> >
>>> > In less than six months of office it became evident that President
>>> Letlapa
>>> > (perhaps as he then was) had embarked on a no return path to self
>>> > destruction and organisational paralysis. Contrary to what many people
>>> > PERCEIVE it increasingly became clear that there was real incapacity
>>> to take
>>> > decisions including on matters about which we had given a clear
>>> mandate, for
>>> > his benefit some of them. A telling example was his failure to secure
>>> proper
>>> > accomodation for himself when we had, some of us millitantly at the
>>> time,
>>> > resolved that he should sign as signatory and secure himself decent
>>> place.
>>> > He was our President and had our undivided support and loyalty. The
>>> list of
>>> > indecision instances is sizeable.
>>> >
>>> > Perhaps the indecision was a result of leadership inexperience and
>>> would be
>>> > cured with time, so we wanted to convince ourselves.
>>> >
>>> > But then other things happened. In post apartheid SA he presided and
>>> > engineered the break up of the PAC into small insignificant pieces.
>>> This was
>>> > very painful and it still is. Two splinter movements sprang out of the
>>> > party, including his attempt at killing PAYCO by introducing some
>>> league
>>> > concept. I personally have little regard for the two individuals who
>>> led
>>> > these splinter groups as they are just as much opportunists. The issue
>>> is
>>> > that the desire for people to break up Parties is always there but
>>> > leadership prevails. In cases where the split is not avoidable,
>>> > organisational performance must absolve you as some form of
>>> 'mitigation'. In
>>> > this instance the party is on a desperate downslide appealing to
>>> mainly the
>>> > few councillor segments most of whom are driven by survivalist
>>> interests.
>>> >
>>> > So having seen all of these, the outcome was always on the cards.
>>> >
>>> > My real issue is what then, and I think we must tread slowly,
>>> carefully and
>>> > robustly drawing from our past experiences.
>>> >
>>> > There is no doubt as there never was, that the Alice concoction was ill
>>> > advised and fatal for the Party. Whatever we do on the leadership
>>> question,
>>> > we must place cadres in charge only once we know fully well what they
>>> stand
>>> > for and what their character make is. It is this aspect we should
>>> engage
>>> > each other accross.
>>> >
>>> > Izwe Lethu iAfrika !
>>> >
>>> > Matome Mashao
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my BlackBerry®
>>> >
>>> > -Original Message-
>>> > From: Tommy ka-Ntando 
>>> > Sender: 

Re: [PAYCO] Re: Notice of Extended NEC Meeting and Agenda

2016-05-27 Thread Chargein Mabaso
atjie;
>>> mokoenaad; esei...@fedcraw.org.za; Eddy Thobejane; Dave Hammond;
>>> Malesela Mogashwa;
>>> ic...@telkomsa.net; Inqubela Phambili; p...@npswu.org.co.za;
>>> ad...@fedcraw.org.za; generalsecret...@mwasa.org.za;
>>> hoteli...@iburst.co.za; headoff...@sacwu.org.za; legalu...@sacwu.co.za;
>>> brian.gam...@unioinlife.co.za; Admin @ Pac; Alton Mphethi; Michael
>>> Muendane;
>>> sg; dsg; david mabitsela; miles.ndl...@yahoo.com; justice mvakali;
>>> bulanng...@gmail.com; isaacl; Mohlomphegi Mphahlele; Nakaphala Matlala;
>>>  paccapemetro; Mapula Nkoana; Mangaliso Mdhlela;
>>> joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; Ligege Takalani; richardmaoka; L.R. Mbinda;
>>> L Lekgwathi; Wandisile Gajana;
>>> Smoll Zondo; phillip Dhlamini; Mbulelo Raymond; dud...@webmail.co.za;
>>> Billiard Seth
>>> Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Re: Notice of Extended NEC Meeting and Agenda
>>>
>>>
>>> Comrade Eddie.
>>>
>>>
>>> Please nind your language when you talk to another comrades-in-arms.
>>> There is neither absolute honest and absolute truth in what is happening
>>> in the Pan Africanist fold. Your deeds do not serve PAC interest but
>>> those of your faction and enenies, consciously or uncomsciously. We are
>>> busy talking about PAC unity and you guys are busy engaged in personal
>>> and factional agendas. Don't pretend as if you do not know PAC political
>>> dynamics is at the moment. Your NEC is also a NEC for a particular
>>> faction too. It is not better than other PAC factions. Currently, your
>>> faction (Mbinda-Moloto faction) is canerous, reactionary and
>>> countrrevolution. It is counterrevolutionary and reactionary for any
>>> member to be a stumblig block (opposed /
>>> obstacle) to Party unity. Genuine loyal PAC leaders ought run the Party
>>> through properly constituted PAC conferences and congresses as
>>> stipulated by the PAC Constitution, not through neocolonial courts and
>>> factional conferences and congresses. What you are doing is tantamount
>>> to working for our enemies, consciously or unconsciously. If the PAC
>>> unity fails because of you, comrades, be rest assured, history will
>>> judge you harshly, both individually and collectively. It will be unkind
>>> to you as it did to other wrong elemnts in the Party throughout the
>>> political life of PAC. Continue messing the Party at your risk and
>>> peril! Remember the Oath of Allegation you took. It still applies.
>>> History will be judge unkindly. Narius Moloto
>>> has no clean hands as you think. He played a major in the destruction of
>>> PAC
>>> to where it is today. He cannot pretend otherwise. Once beaten twice
>>> shy. Guys, you can run but you cannot hide. You can't fool us again.
>>> We are watching your deeds with keen interest! Continue, comrades,
>>> messing the PAC. We will be observers (Qubani sizakubamb'ikhuba!)
>>>
>>> Izwe Lethu!
>>>
>>>
>>> On 26/05/2016, eddie mfulwane <rammymfulw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Cde Apa
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm extremely disturbed with you sending me these rubbish to me. I
>>>> know you are normal and a man of your age is expected to have some
>>>> level of maturity. Continuing with this non existing dream that you
>>>> are PAC or worse PAC leadership comes to me as a concern that old men
>>>>  who are suppose to be busy with family responsibilities are busy
>>>> chasing shadows.
>>>>
>>>> I hope its for the last time you include my email in these foolish
>>>> non existing dream. *GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD'S...YOU HAVE LOST AND
>>>> THEREFORE NO LONGER PAC LEADERSHIP!!*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Seating here looking at what you call an agenda, I see you talking of
>>>>  Elections and IEC related matters and I wonder where are you going
>>>> to submit the names, or anything you resolve on in this joke of a
>>>> meeting.
>>>>
>>>> President Luthando Mbinda and other leaders of other parties are busy
>>>>  with IEC processes ...setting timetables and guidelines and you guys
>>>>  are still lying to each other, that there is some little hope
>>>> somewhere that you will create some confusion and submit whatever you
>>>>  intend to.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Never again should you confuse me for being part of your dream
&g

Re: [PAYCO] Re: Notice of Extended NEC Meeting and Agenda

2016-05-26 Thread Chargein Mabaso
Comrade Eddie.

Please nind your language when you talk to another comrades-in-arms.
There is neither absolute honest and absolute truth in what is
happening in the Pan Africanist fold. Your deeds do not serve PAC
interest but those of your faction and enenies, consciously or
uncomsciously. We are busy talking about PAC unity and you guys are
busy engaged in personal and factional agendas. Don't pretend as if
you do not know PAC political dynamics is at the moment. Your NEC is
also a NEC for a particular faction too. It is not better than other
PAC factions. Currently, your faction (Mbinda-Moloto faction) is
canerous, reactionary and countrrevolution. It is counterrevolutionary
and reactionary for any member to be a stumblig block (opposed /
obstacle) to Party unity. Genuine loyal PAC leaders ought run the
Party through properly constituted PAC conferences and congresses as
stipulated by the PAC Constitution, not through neocolonial courts and
factional conferences and congresses. What you are doing is tantamount
to working for our enemies, consciously or unconsciously. If the PAC
unity fails because of you, comrades, be rest assured, history will
judge you harshly, both individually and collectively. It will be
unkind to you as it did to other  wrong elemnts in the Party
throughout the political life of PAC. Continue messing the Party at
your risk and peril! Remember the Oath of Allegation you took. It
still applies. History will be judge unkindly. Narius Moloto has no
clean hands as you think. He played a major in the destruction of PAC
to where it is today. He cannot pretend otherwise. Once beaten twice
shy. Guys, you can run but you cannot hide. You can't fool us again.
We are watching your deeds with keen interest! Continue, comrades,
messing the PAC. We will be observers (Qubani sizakubamb'ikhuba!)

Izwe Lethu!

On 26/05/2016, eddie mfulwane  wrote:
> Cde Apa
>
> I'm extremely disturbed with you sending me these rubbish to me. I know you
> are normal and a man of your age is expected to have some level of
> maturity. Continuing with this non existing dream that you are PAC or worse
> PAC leadership comes to me as a concern that old men who are suppose to be
> busy with family responsibilities are busy chasing shadows.
>
> I hope its for the last time you include my email in these foolish non
> existing dream. *GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD'S...YOU HAVE LOST AND THEREFORE
> NO LONGER PAC LEADERSHIP!!*
>
> Seating here looking at what you call an agenda, I see you talking of
> Elections and IEC related matters and I wonder where are you going to
> submit the names, or anything you resolve on in this joke of a meeting.
>
> President Luthando Mbinda and other leaders of other parties are busy with
> IEC processes ...setting timetables and guidelines and you guys are still
> lying to each other, that there is some little hope somewhere that you will
> create some confusion and submit whatever you intend to.
>
>
> Never again should you confuse me for being part of your dream I'm a
> sober PAC member who knows who and what PAC is and that is nothing like
> you. Get a life or be bold enough to go start your own little organisation.
>
> *Oooh as a South African citizen you are welcome to join the PAC LGE 2016
> Manifesto Launch on the 28th May 2016 at Attrigeville @ 10H00 and VOTE PAC
> on 03rd August 2016.*
>
>
> Yours in PAC behind the leadership of President Luthando Mbinda
>
> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 4:20 AM, vakele mkandawire 
> wrote:
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> Kindly find attached Notice of Extended NEC Meeting and Agenda.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Apa Pooe
>> Sec for Information and Publicity
>> Mobile Number: 083 9402 755
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *RE.Mfulwane*
>
>
>
>
> *Pan-Africanist Youth Congress Office Of the Secretary Generalcde Eddie
> MfulwaneCell: 084 376 6634*
>
> --
> --
> Sending your posting to payco@googlegroups.com
>
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>
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>
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Re: [PAYCO] Time to call it quits for my Pres.

2015-09-21 Thread Chargein Mabaso
Comrades,

President Mugabe was sabotage by his own party to expose him or even
to send a clear signal to those who don't want him to step down within
Zanu Pf for their own good reasons. That is clear not to my mind.
Let's wait and see the next signal.

On the point of eloquent leaders, i have a different view. Most of
eloquent leaders do not go beyond eloquence nowadays. Most of them are
spineless. They cannot stand alone on principle. Unprincipled leaders
cannot make in a party. Many of them find it difficult to lead the
Party and give up easily. They can be crowd pullers outside the party
but leading the party does not end there. Take the example of Mandela
and Mbeki. When Mbeki took over, we doubted him if he will reach
Mandela's crow pulling capability. My own assessment is Mbeki was a
stronger leaders even more than Mandela as far as leading the ANC. He
could handle ANC dynamics better than Mandela but he was not eloquent
or charismatic like Mandela. Moreso, I worked in the past with highly
chariSmatic and eloquence PASO and AZANYU leaders. Many of them found
it difficulty to lead an organisation. Leading is a another ball game
altogether. That is why many parties employ eloquent speakers as
spokespersons, ot President of the Party. A good leader must excell in
uniting and leading the party properly into the theatre of struggle.
He / she must master how to exercise his /her powers effective and
efficiently as a leader without abusing them.  He must a true
democratic centralist who knows the limits of democratic centralism.
He must neither be a dictator nor spineless democrat. Furthermore, he
must not try to imitate another leader's style of leadership. He /she
must himself / herself. There a few such people in any party. At the
same, he must be part of a revolutionary collective, not a faction.

On 9/21/15, Sebenzile Mlaza <sebenzi...@raf.co.za> wrote:
>
>
> Revolutionary greetings all,
>
>
> Reading an already delivered speech by president Mugabe is definitely not a
> transgression, but remember State of the Nation addresses are simply not
> delivered off the cuff, right? Imbedded in them are hopes and inspirations
> of the Nation; they encampus the country's vision thus making the incident
> not trivial. Some leaders even memorize them so to appear to be orators ala
> Cicero, that's what many of them do; I suspect Obama does the same, despite
> being not indictable to read a wrong speech but this faux pas can't be
> regarded as a piccadillo for reasons aforementioned.
>
>
>
> Having said that, perhaps a phraseologically self short-charging was used by
> saying: "He must call it quits." These words were used with the knowledge
> that ZANU isn't just a one man show, president Mugabe certainly has fidus
> Achates in his party some whom he was in the trenches with he can pass the
> baton to. If he feels he could still run the relay without handing over the
> baton to a new energized sprinter, it then smacks of scepticism for his own
> comrades so mishaps like reading anachronistic speeches will continue. Where
> he mentally agile, as he is known to be, he was supposed to rehash the
> speech triggered by an engram, no one would have noticed and we wouldn't be
> having this debate today.
>
>
>
> It will be naive to think that he isn't been taken advantage of because of
> his age. By whom it may be asked? Not by the Imperialist West, certainly not
> by compradors in the MDC but by his own comrades in ZANU because such
> speeches are not simply put on a lectern for a reader, even eloquent
> preachers visit the Bible in the absence of congregants and pretend the next
> day to be au fait with the gospel when delivering a homily.
>
>
>
> Fears that if he steps down there shall be political upheaval in Zimbabwe
> and that may spill over to South Africa. Then this is like a deferment of
> the inevitable because president Mugabe is not immortal. As we speak a
> countless number of our Zimbabwe brothers and sisters are in South Africa
> some whom white settlers take advantage of because of their illegal status.
>
> It's time president Mugabe handed the baton to a trusted comrade who would
> run the mile not because of him having read a previously delivered speech
> but of his dotage seen by us ‘his admirers’ and I repeat ‘HIS ADMIRERS.’
>
>
>
> From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com]
> Sent: 21 September 2015 08:14 AM
> To: payco@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Time to call it quits for my Pres.
>
> Dear Comrades
>
> There are two ways to look at this. Oratory goes a long way in drawing mass
> appeal. All organizations that have succeeded had the oratory being integral
> to their success. People used to walk long distances to listen to their
> leaders speak with pep and zest, now they

RE: [PAYCO] Time to call it quits for my Pres.

2015-09-20 Thread Hulisani
Comrade Linda, any ideas on who should succeed Oldman RG Mugabe and his peers 
in ZANU- PF leadership? I think though ZANU-PF is keenly aware of the 
succession matter and is probably fairly prepared for the inevitable departure 
of Mugabe and his peers. 

 
> Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Time to call it quits for my Pres.
> To: payco@googlegroups.com
> From: kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za
> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 17:48:02 +
> 
> I think our love for the old man to a certain extent blind us to reality. 
> That Mugabe is old is an undeniable fact? That he's now susceptible to things 
> that happens to older people such as tripping on stairways, falling in the 
> bathroom, getting ill often and ofcourse reading a wrong speech without 
> realizing. Oflate the oldman has been committing serious mistakes that 
> embarrasses all of us, example was when he made statements loaded with tribal 
> hatred recently. 
> 
> Ofcourse the persons in the Presidents Office responsible for speech writing 
> and Head of the President's office must be taken to task for this blunder. 
> Having said that, the President cannot be absolved from this blunder, he 
> should have realized whilst reading the speech that he had once read it. If 
> the President reads his speeches with comprehension he could have realised on 
> the first 2 paragraphs of the speech except if he couldn't recall because of 
> age.
> 
> I remain convinced comrades that succession has never been this urgent. When 
> our leader Fidel Castro was being overtaken by age he voluntarily handed the 
> baton. The Oldman RG Mugabe must hand the baton. 
> 
> Izwe lethu!
> Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Chargein Mabaso <chargein...@gmail.com>
> Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 18:55:46 
> To: <payco@googlegroups.com>
> Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Time to call it quits for my Pres.
> 
> Comrades,
> 
> Let's be serious. This is a serious matter just like when President
> Boris Yeltsin of Russia tripped and staggered infront of the public
> media making mockery of himself. He was redicule and dubbed as being
> drunk on an important occassion and called to resign. .
> 
> Ma-Afrika, there is no way that the State President of a country can
> read a wrong speech in a public platform by accident or omission by
> his personal aids. How can that happen in any country? Where was the
> speech writer who is paid to do that?  I also have the same question.
> Where were the communications department, VIP proetection, security
> and intelligent structures who are paid to protect the image
> (reputation) of the President and that of Zimbabwe as country when
> this fiasco happened? The President is the face of the country. That
> is why enemies of any couuntry target the President as their enemey
> number one. Look at the tight security of President Obama wherever he
> goes. Look at the noise in many papers about  wrong sign language
> interpreter (psychopath) who stood next to President Obama during
> Mandela!s Memorial service.  Any threat against President Obama's life
> and image is a direct threat to America as a country, not just to
> Obama as an individual. What happened to President Mugabe was a clear
> sabotage from within his own camp.  Embarassing the President of a
> country is a punishable offence, if not high treason, for anyone who
> did it, consciously or unconsciously. The whole saga did come as a
> surprise after Mujuru crisis in Zimbabwe, if we know her influence and
> that of her husband in the military, security and intelligence
> structures in Zimbabwe.. I guess so. The whole issue seems to be an
> inside job to deepen the crisis in Zimbabwe and check the reaction of
> the Mugabe:s inner circle. Recently, it was reported on papers that
> few days after Mnangagwa was elected as Vice President at the expense
> of Joyce Muju head, poison was found in his office afer his secretary
> collapdsed and rushed to hospital due to inhalation of the poisonous
> gases (attempted assassination of the second in command). That was
> very serious. Once beaten twice shy. What will be the third move after
> this one? My guess is as good as yours.
> 
> On 9/19/15, Hulisani <mmbar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Evening comrades, I wouldn't want to necessary venture into either side of
> > the debate regarding whether or not Mugabe should leave as a matter of
> > urgency. I think the speech incident is being blown out of proportion in so
> > far as Mugabe is being blamed for the oversight. My understanding is that
> > Mugabe has a communication team that assist him with these issues who must
> > make sure th

Re: [PAYCO] Time to call it quits for my Pres.

2015-09-20 Thread Chargein Mabaso
Comrades,

Let's be serious. This is a serious matter just like when President
Boris Yeltsin of Russia tripped and staggered infront of the public
media making mockery of himself. He was redicule and dubbed as being
drunk on an important occassion and called to resign. .

Ma-Afrika, there is no way that the State President of a country can
read a wrong speech in a public platform by accident or omission by
his personal aids. How can that happen in any country? Where was the
speech writer who is paid to do that?  I also have the same question.
Where were the communications department, VIP proetection, security
and intelligent structures who are paid to protect the image
(reputation) of the President and that of Zimbabwe as country when
this fiasco happened? The President is the face of the country. That
is why enemies of any couuntry target the President as their enemey
number one. Look at the tight security of President Obama wherever he
goes. Look at the noise in many papers about  wrong sign language
interpreter (psychopath) who stood next to President Obama during
Mandela!s Memorial service.  Any threat against President Obama's life
and image is a direct threat to America as a country, not just to
Obama as an individual. What happened to President Mugabe was a clear
sabotage from within his own camp.  Embarassing the President of a
country is a punishable offence, if not high treason, for anyone who
did it, consciously or unconsciously. The whole saga did come as a
surprise after Mujuru crisis in Zimbabwe, if we know her influence and
that of her husband in the military, security and intelligence
structures in Zimbabwe.. I guess so. The whole issue seems to be an
inside job to deepen the crisis in Zimbabwe and check the reaction of
the Mugabe:s inner circle. Recently, it was reported on papers that
few days after Mnangagwa was elected as Vice President at the expense
of Joyce Muju head, poison was found in his office afer his secretary
collapdsed and rushed to hospital due to inhalation of the poisonous
gases (attempted assassination of the second in command). That was
very serious. Once beaten twice shy. What will be the third move after
this one? My guess is as good as yours.

On 9/19/15, Hulisani <mmbar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Evening comrades, I wouldn't want to necessary venture into either side of
> the debate regarding whether or not Mugabe should leave as a matter of
> urgency. I think the speech incident is being blown out of proportion in so
> far as Mugabe is being blamed for the oversight. My understanding is that
> Mugabe has a communication team that assist him with these issues who must
> make sure the president has the right speech for the right occasion, whether
> or not he personally wrote the speech himself. So how it ought to work is
> that someone will type the speech, print it, place it on the pulpit before
> Mugabe ascends to the podium. This despite whether or not the president has
> kept a copy for himself. In my view, if anyone must go with immediate
> effect, it is definitely the speech writer or the head of his communication
> for being casual and not taking their salaried jobs seriously. Even then I
> would say firing who ever is responsible for this will amount to some kind
> of heavy handedness. Overall I think the issue of reading the wrong speech
> is for all intents and purposes trivial. I'm sure for any president, this
> would be the least oversight, which would not warrant calls for a leader to
> step down. I am not sure if age has anything to do with it. Even if it has,
> in the bigger scheme of things (I insist reading a wrong speech is a minor
> oversight, it is not even a transgression), does the reading of the speech
> outweighs all other political considerations for retaining the leader? I
> think not, instead my view is that the media has made sure to sensationalize
> this issue as they always do.
>
>
>> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:13:28 +0200
>> Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Time to call it quits for my Pres.
>> From: chargein...@gmail.com
>> To: payco@googlegroups.com
>>
>> It is not as easy as like that for him, comrade. If Mugabe goes, there
>> will be political upheaval in Zimbabwe. It will mean regime change.
>> His Inner Circle will have to go too. That will be costly. It is the
>> one forcing him to remain in power. It's a political marriage unti
>> death. .even if he wants to go but they are definitely telling not to
>> abandone them. They want Mugabe to rule until his last day on earth so
>> that they can turn him into a deity like Mandela, Lenin, Mao Tse Tung
>> to continue ruling and scare political rivals opposing them as
>> disrespecting Mugabe's last will and vision. This is exactly what is
>> going in PAC. Letlapa Mphahlele may be forced to remain PAC President
>> ev

RE: [PAYCO] Time to call it quits for my Pres.

2015-09-19 Thread Hulisani
Evening comrades, I wouldn't want to necessary venture into either side of the 
debate regarding whether or not Mugabe should leave as a matter of urgency. I 
think the speech incident is being blown out of proportion in so far as Mugabe 
is being blamed for the oversight. My understanding is that Mugabe has a 
communication team that assist him with these issues who must make sure the 
president has the right speech for the right occasion, whether or not he 
personally wrote the speech himself. So how it ought to work is that someone 
will type the speech, print it, place it on the pulpit before Mugabe ascends to 
the podium. This despite whether or not the president has kept a copy for 
himself. In my view, if anyone must go with immediate effect, it is definitely 
the speech writer or the head of his communication for being casual and not 
taking their salaried jobs seriously. Even then I would say firing who ever is 
responsible for this will amount to some kind of heavy handedness. Overall I 
think the issue of reading the wrong speech is for all intents and purposes 
trivial. I'm sure for any president, this would be the least oversight, which 
would not warrant calls for a leader to step down. I am not sure if age has 
anything to do with it. Even if it has, in the bigger scheme of things (I 
insist reading a wrong speech is a minor oversight, it is not even a 
transgression), does the reading of the speech outweighs all other political 
considerations for retaining the leader? I think not, instead my view is that 
the media has made sure to sensationalize this issue as they always do. 

 
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:13:28 +0200
> Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Time to call it quits for my Pres.
> From: chargein...@gmail.com
> To: payco@googlegroups.com
> 
> It is not as easy as like that for him, comrade. If Mugabe goes, there
> will be political upheaval in Zimbabwe. It will mean regime change.
> His Inner Circle will have to go too. That will be costly. It is the
> one forcing him to remain in power. It's a political marriage unti
> death. .even if he wants to go but they are definitely telling not to
> abandone them. They want Mugabe to rule until his last day on earth so
> that they can turn him into a deity like Mandela, Lenin, Mao Tse Tung
> to continue ruling and scare political rivals opposing them as
> disrespecting Mugabe's last will and vision. This is exactly what is
> going in PAC. Letlapa Mphahlele may be forced to remain PAC President
> even when the writing is on the wall for him. He will only voluntarily
> step down when his Inner Circle in his faction see it it fit. They
> know his downfall is also theirs. There will be regime change in the
> PAC too. Bangamafanankosi lamadoda! That's it. He cannot abandfone
> them at this stage. Not NOW! Thami Plaatjies did that. His reputation
> went to zero. His is now a declared traitor to his comrades-in-arms.
> Letlapa does not want to be in the same boat. It's about reputation,
> nothing more.
> 
> Understand Mugabe's dilemma comrade. Those who want him to go are
> vying for his inner circle and Zanu- his lehacy too. Remember: When
> you fire the CEO, you must also fire his inner circle too. You saw
> what happened Egyptian President Mubarak and his inner circle after he
> stepped down. They were under severe attack. Hence, the overthrow of
> the democratically elected President Morsi. Mubarak's regime made
> wrong calculation. Mugabe learned a lesson from President Mubara and
> Gaddafi. He doesn want the same to happen to him. I am sure President
> Zuma has similar fears. His enemies will call for his arrest for his
> role in Matabeleland crisis. Another problem is when Mugabe steps
> down, it will be chaos in Zim. Mugabe is a uniting figure for both
> Zanu and Zimbabwean people. If I was a Zanu member, I will oppose the
> move to force Mugabe to retire without a clear successor.
> Unforetunately, such a successor will not be Mugabe 2 You saw what
> happened to PAC when we said Makwetu must go without succession plan
> in place. It was and is still chaos in PAC till today. We all created
> the PAC chaos unaware and unconsciously. That is why we must all bear
> the consequences now.  It's our mess. We are to blame. PAC went from
> bad to worsE. Same will happen in Zimbabwe. If he dies in power,
> Zimbabweans can handle the transition with care and with the sensitive
> it deserves unlike if he resigns. Resigning will work in the interest
> of the enemies of Zimbabwe. Unfortunate, Zanu is losing good cadres
> like Joyce Mujuru in the meantime. Careerists, opportunists and agents
> are definitely exploitinbg the situation in Zimbabwe for their own
> hidden agendas. The true is, whether we like it or not,  the chaos in
> Zim will spill over to South Africa with positive and negative result

Re: [PAYCO] Time to call it quits for my Pres.

2015-09-18 Thread Linda Ndebele
It was indeed the most embarrassing moment. Succession has never been this 
urgent. The Old Man has played his part, let him hand over the baton.
Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!

-Original Message-
From: Sebenzile Mlaza 
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 06:53:47 
To: 'payco@googlegroups.com'
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: [PAYCO] Time to call it quits for my Pres.



Revolutionary greetings to all,

President Robert Mugabe delivered a State of the Nation Speech he had 
previously delivered.
It's time our good president calls it quits, this is a sign of senility.

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Re: [PAYCO] Time to call it quits for my Pres.

2015-09-18 Thread Chargein Mabaso
It is not as easy as like that for him, comrade. If Mugabe goes, there
will be political upheaval in Zimbabwe. It will mean regime change.
His Inner Circle will have to go too. That will be costly. It is the
one forcing him to remain in power. It's a political marriage unti
death. .even if he wants to go but they are definitely telling not to
abandone them. They want Mugabe to rule until his last day on earth so
that they can turn him into a deity like Mandela, Lenin, Mao Tse Tung
to continue ruling and scare political rivals opposing them as
disrespecting Mugabe's last will and vision. This is exactly what is
going in PAC. Letlapa Mphahlele may be forced to remain PAC President
even when the writing is on the wall for him. He will only voluntarily
step down when his Inner Circle in his faction see it it fit. They
know his downfall is also theirs. There will be regime change in the
PAC too. Bangamafanankosi lamadoda! That's it. He cannot abandfone
them at this stage. Not NOW! Thami Plaatjies did that. His reputation
went to zero. His is now a declared traitor to his comrades-in-arms.
Letlapa does not want to be in the same boat. It's about reputation,
nothing more.

Understand Mugabe's dilemma comrade. Those who want him to go are
vying for his inner circle and Zanu- his lehacy too. Remember: When
you fire the CEO, you must also fire his inner circle too. You saw
what happened Egyptian President Mubarak and his inner circle after he
stepped down. They were under severe attack. Hence, the overthrow of
the democratically elected President Morsi. Mubarak's regime made
wrong calculation. Mugabe learned a lesson from President Mubara and
Gaddafi. He doesn want the same to happen to him. I am sure President
Zuma has similar fears. His enemies will call for his arrest for his
role in Matabeleland crisis. Another problem is when Mugabe steps
down, it will be chaos in Zim. Mugabe is a uniting figure for both
Zanu and Zimbabwean people. If I was a Zanu member, I will oppose the
move to force Mugabe to retire without a clear successor.
Unforetunately, such a successor will not be Mugabe 2 You saw what
happened to PAC when we said Makwetu must go without succession plan
in place. It was and is still chaos in PAC till today. We all created
the PAC chaos unaware and unconsciously. That is why we must all bear
the consequences now.  It's our mess. We are to blame. PAC went from
bad to worsE. Same will happen in Zimbabwe. If he dies in power,
Zimbabweans can handle the transition with care and with the sensitive
it deserves unlike if he resigns. Resigning will work in the interest
of the enemies of Zimbabwe. Unfortunate, Zanu is losing good cadres
like Joyce Mujuru in the meantime. Careerists, opportunists and agents
are definitely exploitinbg the situation in Zimbabwe for their own
hidden agendas. The true is, whether we like it or not,  the chaos in
Zim will spill over to South Africa with positive and negative results
depending on the balance of forces in our country. It's a great
challenge, indeed.

On 9/18/15, Sebenzile Mlaza  wrote:
>
>
> Revolutionary greetings to all,
>
> President Robert Mugabe delivered a State of the Nation Speech he had
> previously delivered.
> It's time our good president calls it quits, this is a sign of senility.
>
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Re: [PAYCO] Sarcastic Anthropology.

2015-09-14 Thread 'Sebenzile Mlaza' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
Evening Cde Mawethu,

Judging by the brain size of so-called Homo Naledi (this newly discovered 
allege distant relative of ours), it is quite obvious that Homo sapiens (us) 
are not directly descended from that species. Read this cognitively, some 
racist academics simply want to infer one conclusion that Africans descended 
this species - Homo Naledi. It is implausible that any branch of the human 
species direct descendants of the Homo Sapiens might have evolved from this 
species.  That is pure hogwash, period!!!

This is like sending a boy to do a man's job, cheap publicity for SA. Ramaphosa 
"Buffalo" knows nothing.
Were professor Tobias alive he would have dismissed this impropriety.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On 14 Sep 2015, at 4:34 PM, 'Mawethu Sidzamba' via Pan Africanist Youth 
> Congress  wrote:
> 
> Dear Cde Sebenzile
> 
> I pretty much comprehend the valor contained in your argument. However for me 
> whether this discovery be valid or not it does perhaps bring us closer to the 
> realization of two things, firstly that Africans are the 
> longest/oldest-surviving human species in the world. Secondly it is also in 
> keeping with what Sobukwe said when heightening the single source of mankind. 
> In his speeches and explication of the largely misconstrued "one race the 
> human race", it is captured that "all Scientists agree that all men can trace 
> their ancestry to the first homo sapiens". In essence instead of this being 
> used to denigrate the Africans it can be used to prove the opposite logic 
> that will locate all racialists in their place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, September 14, 2015 2:44 PM, 'Sebenzile Mlaza' via Pan Africanist 
> Youth Congress  wrote:
> 
> 
> > Revolutionary greetings to all,
> 
> >  Ramaphosa aka "Mr. R20 million Buffalo"and his white anthropologist 
> > "friends" have implicitly ratified the Herrenvolks paralogism that man 
> > evolved from baboons, in this case - a black man since this small-brained 
> > species was discovered in Africa (according its cranial brain cavity.) It 
> > took them almost 2 years to reveal this nonsense of disintegrated bones.
> > Anthropology which is based on probabilities and peradventures is 
> > pseudo-anthropology.
> > Because that species is thought to have performed rituals for its dead it 
> > doesn't qualify its sagacity.
> > Example, go to sleep leaving a dead cricket on the floor, the next morning 
> > you won't find it.
> > At night its kind would come and fetch it, if not disturbed by any movement.
> > Who knows what they're going to do with the dead "body?"
> > My guess is they're going to bury it and perform the orthoptera ritual 
> > unique to its kind.
> > By the by, female crickets don't chirp, only male ones do and male 
> > mosquitoes don't bite, they feed on nectar, only female ones suckle blood.
> > Dr. Mathole Motshekga for once wore his pants and deviated from this 
> > rubbish regardless of what his deputy president et al thought.
> 
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Re: [PAYCO] WHAT WENT WRONG WITH AZANIA (SA) BURNING by Bulayo News on-line

2015-04-21 Thread Tom Oreje
Masoga,

Brother, the rest of africa is reacting!  

Will south Africa be comfortable again in isolation?

Right now, none of South African citizens can dare say, in a foreign country, 
that they are south African, the pride is gone and violence is knocking at your 
door. 

And all these because of a 'king'? I pity you. 

Cheers.

  Original Message  
From: Mphiri Masoga
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 12:26 PM
To: PAYCO azaniapaycoofaza...@gmail.com; payco@googlegroups.com
Reply To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: [PAYCO] WHAT WENT WRONG WITH AZANIA (SA) BURNING by Bulayo News on-line


What went wrong with SA independence to turn their anger and hate on foreigners?
by Nomazulu Thata
18 April 2015 | 1887 Views
What went wrong with South African independence to turn their anger and hate on 
foreigners? Naomi Klein chronologies some facets of a stolen revolution: Shock 
doctrine

Reconciliation means that those who have been on the underside of history must 
see that there is a qualitative difference between repression and freedom.  And 
for them, freedom translates into having a supply of clean water, having a good 
job, to be able to send your children to school and to have accessible health 
care. I mean, what's the point of having made this transition if the quality of 
life of these people is not enhanced and improved? If not, the vote is 
useless.  These are the words of Archbishop Tutu verbatim, Chair of South 
Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, 2001. Taken from the book: Shock 
doctrine by Naomi Klein.

Naomi Klein, the writer of Shock Doctrine follows the economic and political 
developments that took place in South Africa following the release of Nelson 
Mandela from prison in 1990. Her analysis on SA could give us some clue as to 
what happened to the revolution in SA? Who benefited from the independence, why 
do people feel betrayed, do they know they got betrayed?  Now it seems the 
betrayal, the hate and anger are openly, is nakedly vomited on the foreigners. 
They are to blame! They must leave South Africa or else they will be killed!

When Mandela was released from prison in 1990, February the 12th, he came to a 
world that had changed from what it was in 1963 before he went to prison. He 
arrived to a new generational South Africa, New Africa and a new world order. 
The socialist revolutionary movements the whole world had ceased to exist. The 
Berlin Wall had fallen and as a result the cold war over. Che Guevara had died 
long back, President Salvado Allende of Chile died in a coup in 1973, President 
Samora Machel of Mozambique died of a plane crash in October 1986. The 
repression at Tiananmen Square was crushed and communism in China collapsed, 
says Naomi in her Shock Doctrine. But what Mandela still had firm in his mind 
when he left the prison door of Robin Island, was power of the Freedom Charter, 
policies that he had worked on with other ANC stalwarts before he went to 
prison and the document spread like fire to almost all peoples of South Africa, 
everyone in the revolution was convinced that it was a document to free the 
people of South Africa from political and economic oppression. ANC policies had 
its roots, its values its principles enshrined in the Freedom Charter, a live 
and timeless document adopted in 1955. The objectives of this noble document 
were, 

 - Landless people and dispossessed people should be given land
 - Workers should be given livable wages and shorter working hours
 - There should be free and compulsory education for all 
 - Right to freedom of movement irrespective of color race, creed and 
nationality
 - Share the country's wealth of land, gold and diamonds
 - Banks mineral wealth monopoly of industries shall be controlled to assist 
the wellbeing of the people

Before South Africa's democratic independence in 1994, South Africa had an 
economic system that perpetuated racism, and it implemented economic returns 
that were only to be enjoyed by the few white elite. The cheap labor they got 
forcefully from the black population nurtured the economy and it boosted, 
making South Africa the largest economy in the African continent. White people 
were paid ten times more than blacks doing the same job description. According 
to Naomi Klein, South Africa was a country with California living standards for 
the whites and Congo living standards for the black people. Mandela's release 
from prison could have sparked an economic collapse and civil war at the same 
time. He had to balance those forces never to be out of hand and explode into 
total civil war and chaos. The National Party of F. W. De Klerk provoked this 
scenario to prove that blacks were not capable of governing such a huge economy 
like South Africa. It was a two lane negotiation process; political and 
economical. Mandela and Ramaphosa, together with his ANC team had to negotiate 
the political independence from the hands of the few whites to the majority of 
South Africans. It is 

RE: [PAYCO] Fwd: PAC MARCHES COUNTRYWIDE FOR RELEASE OF ITS APLA COMRADES

2015-04-21 Thread July
Noted 

-Original Message-
From: Mphiri Masoga mphi...@gmail.com
Sent: ‎2015-‎04-‎20 04:01 PM
To: payco@googlegroups.com payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: [PAYCO] Fwd: PAC MARCHES COUNTRYWIDE FOR RELEASE OF ITS APLA COMRADES



Regards, 


electronically signed 


Mphiri Masoga 
SACWU 
T (012) 320 6472 - 5
F (012) 320 2179
F2email: 086 225 4254
Email: mphi...@gmail.com 
   masoga.mph...@sacwu.org.za 
C 073 182 2656 








-- Forwarded message --
From: Admin @ Pac ad...@pac.org.za
Date: Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 2:59 PM
Subject: PAC MARCHES COUNTRYWIDE FOR RELEASE OF ITS APLA COMRADES
To: takalaniligeg...@gmail.com, lesibajlekgoa...@gmail.com, mphi...@gmail.com, 
richardma...@yahoo.com, p...@vodamail.co.za, goqwana.san...@gmail.com
Cc: mphi...@gmail.com, moosamazib...@gmail.com, ditlesi...@gmail.com, 
mokoen...@workmail.co.za, melus...@yahoo.com, bmntl...@yahoo.com, 
sraphahl...@parliament.gov.za, pa...@pac.org.za, rammymfulw...@gmail.com, 
smollzo...@gmail.com, nngq...@gmail.com, digashuma...@gmail.com



Revolutionary Greetings , 
 
 
 
Please receive the attached letter and  circulate it to other members who want 
to attend the march on the 24th April 2015.
 
 
 
 
 
Regards,
 
PAC of Azania
Tel : 011 331 3415/ 14/ 11
Fax : 086 527 0380
Email : ad...@pac.org.za
Website: www.pac.org.za
 
A SHORT SAYING OFTEN CONTAINS MUCH WISDOM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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RE: [PAYCO] Quo Vadis PAC

2015-02-02 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Greeting friends and comrades!

 

“Never in history has any class achieved power without having political 
leaders, men capable of organising a movement and leading it” – Lenin. A cadre 
is a professional revolutionary, a qualified graduate in the art of revolution, 
from the purifying school of practical and ideological battles in defence of 
the poor and oppressed masses. None of us can refute that “the PAC has been 
slowly evaporating itself into total oblivion from the political radar”. We 
must note that these writings remain an exchange among us with access to Payco 
google group and worse of all are ignored by those leading the party who holds 
divergent ideas and methods responsible of the disintegration of the PAC, to 
reason with them has proven to be a futile exercise and thus delivered either 
sour fruits or nothing except maliciousness.  The only logical action, is those 
who uphold the necessity of a revolutionary Pan Africanist organisation and 
accept such bitter truths and willing to explore ways and means to (re-) build 
a revolutionary Pan Africanist Party should converge and execute the necessary 
mass based programme.

 

Shango lashu

Nkrumah

 

 

From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of matome
Sent: 01 February 2015 10:45 AM
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Quo Vadis PAC

 

Comrade Sebenzile,

I hope you are well my dearest Friend and Comrade.

Would you allow me to take off by 'attacking' you and then to end differently? 
Since you are not here to engage in 'real time' I am now answering the 
foregoing question on your behalf. This I do in the knowledge that you are my 
Friend, and one of the finest of our generation.

The question is, have you not been a part of this slumber, self exaggeration 
and pity ? The immediate answer is that you have been. And in addition if you 
wish to contest this, what have you done to change this state? Was it enough 
and or sufficient? All these questions seem to leave you on weaker ground. 

Are you still willing to hear this my Friend ?

I thank you for allowing me to 'attack' you in this way without seeing my 
points as personal affront but an invitation to do more, and my sternest belief 
that you have what it takes to exert yourself more.

Revolution and change require more than just type-writer bravery and 
intelligence. 

It is for this reason that mediocre lead the gifted and talented comrades like 
you. 

The pain and task of leading a revolution and party building are much more 
excruciating than that.

Having said all of the above, to you my dear Friend, I here add my voice of 
praise to the validity that belies your submission. 

That question must occupy all of us, that is whether this vehicle can still 
carry this agenda, and whether it is not a wreckage from which we must isolate, 
extricate and advance the potent agenda contained therein. Signs are all that 
you are right, and on this one, very brave too, to have the guts to point this 
out. I do not have to remind you how Sobukwe was at some point like you, like 
you in that when the charterists ditched the Africanist program, and thus 
rendering themselves a wreckage, he and others were brave enough to say, let us 
pick the agenda away from this and find a vehicle to advance it. And they left 
a movement that was almost five decades old. That was brave. So we have to 
listen to you and to confront this question, and do an urgent assessment of 
whether the current vehicle is still a vehicle or a wreckage that is about to 
burn. And whether its immobility is a temporal state which can be fixed. If the 
latter is correct, I am sure there is extreme urgency. This view, the latter 
one, is getting weak by the day, as pitched against the reality of a vehicle 
that may have become a wreck.

So well done my dear Friend !!

Another thing that has been killing me inside is this:

Have we imagined the potential pain of putting everything aside to fight for a 
people and movement who in your darkest days or even so, in your dying days are 
nowhere to acknowledge your sacrifices. I speak here of the many Apla boys who 
were hanged and those who continue to suffer in and outside of jail. What about 
their mothers, brothers and children? All that sacrifice gone to waste ? 

The above really really kills me. 

You see Gadaffi died a good one, Che, Saddam, Lumumba, Kwame and many others. 
Their flame continues. What about the flame of these comrades and martyrs.

So in the light of the above, the neglect of those who suffered and the state 
of the party, this question that you raise is most poignant.

I have not even dealt with our participation in contemporary issues, and our 
ability to contend with the future. 

So I put up my hands again to clap in praise of your bravery.

This is my type writer support to your comments.

Izwe Lethu ! I-Afrika !

Matome Mashao

Sent from my BlackBerry®

  _  

From: Pule Maqekoane maqeko...@gmail.com

RE: [PAYCO] Quo Vadis PAC

2015-02-01 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Izwe lethu M’Afrila Malaza

 

Leon Trotsky, one of the leaders of the 1917 Russian revolution, summed up the 
reason in 1938 when he wrote: The historical crisis of mankind is reduced to 
the crisis of the revolutionary leadership (from The Transitional Programme, 
written for the founding congress of the Fourth International). These words are 
as true today as they were then. Trotsky, in his book The History of the 
Russian Revolution, wrote: Without a guiding organisation, the energy of the 
masses would dissipate like steam not enclosed in a piston box. But 
nevertheless, what moves things is not the piston or the box but the steam.

 

Discussion on the need for a revolutionary party and its form of organisation 
is very important today, especially as many young people regard themselves as 
‘anti-capitalist’ and are interested in socialist ideas including Pan 
Africanism, but have a degree of mistrust towards political parties which are 
consumed by bourgeoisie politics and sophistry of the African comprador 
bourgeoisie . This is hardly surprising given the bureaucratic and undemocratic 
methods of the main capitalist political parties and the attacks they make on 
living standards when in power.  

 

To be successful, insurrection must rely not upon conspiracy and not upon a 
party, but upon the advanced class. That is the first point. Insurrection must 
rely upon a revolutionary upsurge of the people. That is the second point. 
Insurrection must rely upon that turning-point in the history of the growing 
revolution when the activity of the advanced ranks of the people is at its 
height, and when the vacillations in the ranks of the enemy and in the ranks of 
the weak, half-hearted and irresolute friends of the revolution are strongest. 

 

Everyone is free to write and say whatever he likes, without any restrictions. 
But every voluntary association (including the party) is also free to expel 
members who use the name of the party to advocate anti-party views. Freedom of 
speech and the press must be complete. But then freedom of association must be 
complete too. I am bound to accord you, in the name of free speech, the full 
right to shout, lie and write to your heart’s content. But you are bound to 
grant me, in the name of freedom of association, the right to enter into, or 
withdraw from, association with people advocating this or that view. The party 
is a voluntary association, which would inevitably break up, first 
ideologically and then physically, if it did not cleanse itself of people 
advocating anti-party views.

 

“Victory will belong only to those who have faith in the people, those who are 
immersed in the life-giving spring of popular creativity” Lenin

 

Shango lashu

Nkrumah

 

From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of matome
Sent: 01 February 2015 10:45 AM
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Quo Vadis PAC

 

Comrade Sebenzile,

I hope you are well my dearest Friend and Comrade.

Would you allow me to take off by 'attacking' you and then to end differently? 
Since you are not here to engage in 'real time' I am now answering the 
foregoing question on your behalf. This I do in the knowledge that you are my 
Friend, and one of the finest of our generation.

The question is, have you not been a part of this slumber, self exaggeration 
and pity ? The immediate answer is that you have been. And in addition if you 
wish to contest this, what have you done to change this state? Was it enough 
and or sufficient? All these questions seem to leave you on weaker ground. 

Are you still willing to hear this my Friend ?

I thank you for allowing me to 'attack' you in this way without seeing my 
points as personal affront but an invitation to do more, and my sternest belief 
that you have what it takes to exert yourself more.

Revolution and change require more than just type-writer bravery and 
intelligence. 

It is for this reason that mediocre lead the gifted and talented comrades like 
you. 

The pain and task of leading a revolution and party building are much more 
excruciating than that.

Having said all of the above, to you my dear Friend, I here add my voice of 
praise to the validity that belies your submission. 

That question must occupy all of us, that is whether this vehicle can still 
carry this agenda, and whether it is not a wreckage from which we must isolate, 
extricate and advance the potent agenda contained therein. Signs are all that 
you are right, and on this one, very brave too, to have the guts to point this 
out. I do not have to remind you how Sobukwe was at some point like you, like 
you in that when the charterists ditched the Africanist program, and thus 
rendering themselves a wreckage, he and others were brave enough to say, let us 
pick the agenda away from this and find a vehicle to advance it. And they left 
a movement that was almost five decades old. That was brave. So we have to 
listen to you

Re: [PAYCO] Quo Vadis PAC

2015-01-30 Thread Bongani Keith
Revolutionary greetings cry Izwe Lethu

This is there most progressive important statement from comrade Sebenzile
you have cross the breach before many of us to see what will the future
hold when comrades think of the 20 years in vain of sacrifice building an
organisation without making any significant inroads. That shows wheel of
progress after so many years.

It will be regrettable if ideas will be suffocated for another 20 years
proposals of this nature which shows maturity to advance Pan Africanism
must be engaged not criticised without looking back what has happened and
what will be the future.

I await for such ideas to be realised to give meaning to the current epoch
of our struggle.



On Friday, January 30, 2015, Sebenzile Mlaza sebenzi...@raf.co.za wrote:

  Revolutionary greetings to all,



 We've been too obsessed with self-congratulatory stances for too long and
 yet the PAC has been slowly evaporating itself into total oblivion from the
 political radar. And we further kept on blaming the ANC and a ridiculously
 distant force like the CIA for our mishaps. I personally believe it is time
 to wake up and face the bitter truth. PAC  is in a comatose state for an
 indefinite period of time, surely this is  an indictment on the methods
 we've applied to advance and articulate the core objectives Pan Africanism
 and in executing our revolutionary task as Africanists. PAC has simply been
 rendered incapable to execute its own mandate by some faceless political
 thugs. I don't see how will we ever manage to salvage the party from this
 unbearable situation. The stooges and unscrupulous characters at the helm
 of the party who have been largely accountable to their many faceless
 cliques have not helped the situation at all. The party has been in this
 state of affairs for far too long. Nothing that should have been done has
 not been done, instead the party has alienated most if not all of its best
 cadres and intellectuals alike.



 The ambience has changed in the country so a new strategy has to be
 adopted in order to remain relevant in this organic political milieu than
 for us to appear to be led by a jamboree of masochistic gamins who suffer
 from political narcolepsy. For Pete's sake, we all know that the PAC has
 been precocious from its conception to its inception, I am curious to know
 what really happened in exile, but that is a subject that will probably not
 take us anywhere. Yesterday's politics were primarily driven by activism
 and valour, now it's no longer that. The party is faced with a different
 animal, it's called parliamentary politics. Unlike before, this behemoth
 needs prowess, vision and acumen



 We've sacrificed a lot to be bamboozled by these self-serving lackeys at
 the helm of the party masquerading as lecturers on the theory and practice
 of Pan Africanism. It is high time that we should rethink our effectiveness
 under the tutelage of the now defunct PAC (it feels like we are trying to
 suffocate the dead), by focussing our energies on finding a new political
 home that will be capable of pursuing an Africanist agenda without fear of
 political, ideological and philosophical contradictions emanating from
 anyone at any quarters. I do not mean a splinter group like APC or PAM, but
 a new political home to pursue an Africanist agenda that will not be
 hindered by the exile conflict in executing the core objectives of
 Africanism. Indeed quo vadis PAC??



 Inexactitudes not intended … apologies in advance!!!



 Izwe lethu iAfrika!!!

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Re: [PAYCO] Quo Vadis PAC

2015-01-30 Thread Bongani Keith
Revolutionary greetings cry Izwe Lethu

This is there most progressive important statement from comrade Sebenzile
you have cross the breach before many of us to see what will the future
hold when comrades think of the 20 years in vain of sacrifice building an
organisation without making any significant inroads. That shows wheel of
progress after so many years.

It will be regrettable if ideas will be suffocated for another 20 years
proposals of this nature which shows maturity to advance Pan Africanism
must be engaged not criticised without looking back what has happened and
what will be the future.

I await for such ideas to be realised to give meaning to the current epoch
of our struggle.



On Friday, January 30, 2015, Sebenzile Mlaza sebenzi...@raf.co.za wrote:

  Revolutionary greetings to all,



 We've been too obsessed with self-congratulatory stances for too long and
 yet the PAC has been slowly evaporating itself into total oblivion from the
 political radar. And we further kept on blaming the ANC and a ridiculously
 distant force like the CIA for our mishaps. I personally believe it is time
 to wake up and face the bitter truth. PAC  is in a comatose state for an
 indefinite period of time, surely this is  an indictment on the methods
 we've applied to advance and articulate the core objectives Pan Africanism
 and in executing our revolutionary task as Africanists. PAC has simply been
 rendered incapable to execute its own mandate by some faceless political
 thugs. I don't see how will we ever manage to salvage the party from this
 unbearable situation. The stooges and unscrupulous characters at the helm
 of the party who have been largely accountable to their many faceless
 cliques have not helped the situation at all. The party has been in this
 state of affairs for far too long. Nothing that should have been done has
 not been done, instead the party has alienated most if not all of its best
 cadres and intellectuals alike.



 The ambience has changed in the country so a new strategy has to be
 adopted in order to remain relevant in this organic political milieu than
 for us to appear to be led by a jamboree of masochistic gamins who suffer
 from political narcolepsy. For Pete's sake, we all know that the PAC has
 been precocious from its conception to its inception, I am curious to know
 what really happened in exile, but that is a subject that will probably not
 take us anywhere. Yesterday's politics were primarily driven by activism
 and valour, now it's no longer that. The party is faced with a different
 animal, it's called parliamentary politics. Unlike before, this behemoth
 needs prowess, vision and acumen



 We've sacrificed a lot to be bamboozled by these self-serving lackeys at
 the helm of the party masquerading as lecturers on the theory and practice
 of Pan Africanism. It is high time that we should rethink our effectiveness
 under the tutelage of the now defunct PAC (it feels like we are trying to
 suffocate the dead), by focussing our energies on finding a new political
 home that will be capable of pursuing an Africanist agenda without fear of
 political, ideological and philosophical contradictions emanating from
 anyone at any quarters. I do not mean a splinter group like APC or PAM, but
 a new political home to pursue an Africanist agenda that will not be
 hindered by the exile conflict in executing the core objectives of
 Africanism. Indeed quo vadis PAC??



 Inexactitudes not intended … apologies in advance!!!



 Izwe lethu iAfrika!!!

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 Sending your posting to payco@googlegroups.com
 javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','payco@googlegroups.com');

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RE: [PAYCO]

2015-01-28 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Izwe lethu M’Afrika Mdu

 

The question is what has been achieved thus far in the PAC, noting that every 
little work undertaken on ground to revive, re-organise and attempt to build a 
mass based political character for and in the PAC, such efforts are nullified 
by persisting internal feuding which cut deep and may be deeply rooted across 
all levels and structures of the party! There is a leadership that is committed 
on driving divisive and subjective agenda which are responsible for the 
continued disintegration of the PAC at the rate never seen before. 

 

During the epoch of the struggle waged against the settler colonial apartheid 
regime, PAC has to a larger extent withstood external attempts to destroy PAC 
but today failures of CIA, MOSSAD, MI5/10, NIA to sow divisions and destroy the 
PAC, but this has been achieved in less than five years single-handed destroyed 
systematically by organising to disorganise to disintegrate the PAC beyond 
extinction by sowing seeds of mistrust, infighting leading to divisions, 
confusion, absence of organisation.  

 

Shango lashu

Nkrumah

 

From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Mduduzi Sibeko
Sent: 28 January 2015 07:18 PM
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: [PAYCO]

 

Comrades

 

It seems the discussions we had for years on this platform have disappeared.

It is not clear whether it is disillusionment or members have become weary of

Discussing issues for the PAC which doesn’t progress. The paralysis of the PAC

Is at its dangerous space than before. Little if nothing has been heard from 
the PAC after

Our poor electoral showings last year. Moreover, what compounds

Our ills is the leadership scuffles which don’t seem to end. Political vacuum

Exists in the context of oppositional politics. The populists EFF has not made 
any difference in challenging the

The ANC, I know some may think it has, due to its rhetoric of pay back the 
money politics in parliament.

The politics of Azania has been marred by anarchy in law making institutions. 
Where is PAC in leading the masses ?

Are we dead now ? please reply 

 

 

 

 

kind regards

Mduduzi Sibeko

Distribution Customer Service Coordinator 

 



 

T +27-11-724-9300/01

C +27-71-101-2595

F 086-754-2176

E  msib...@randwater.co.za

www.randwater.co.za

 

A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a 
life spent doing nothing. George Bernard Shaw

 

 

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Re: [PAYCO] Please VOTE for this Zimbabwe project NOW

2014-11-14 Thread mafam

Please do VOTE for my project and encourage others to do so :Let's
change the outlook of our urban areas. Vote NOW for this social
innovation for urban renewal the deadline is 23 Nov
2014:https://hivossocialinnovationaward.org/projects/the-talking-urban-garbage-and-municipal-governance-tug-mug/
click where it says 'vote for this innovation'', and the vote can only
be registered if u share it on your Facebook or Twitter walls so that
others can vote...without the sharing, there is no vote

Quoting ma...@msu.ac.zw:

Please do VOTE for my project and encourage other comrades to do so  
in their thousands , if we dont support our own who will ? :Let's  
change the outlook of our urban areas of Zimbabwe. Vote NOW for this  
social innovation for urban renewal the deadline is 23 Nov 2014:  
https://hivossocialinnovationaward.org/projects/the-talking-urban-garbage-and-municipal-governance-tug-mug/



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Re: [PAYCO] SAd news

2014-11-14 Thread chargein461
Comrade Fikiswa

Pls contact cde Sebenzile for lift at 0713501073 or sms your contacts to me 
(0710203554). 

 --
Sent from my Nokia phone

--Original message--
From: Fikiswa Ntshwanti fikis...@gmail.com
To: payco payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 13, 2014 7:45:57 AM GMT+0200
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] SAd news

Izwe lethu MaÁfrika amahle. Ndicela ilift kwabayayo from Gauteng.

On 12 November 2014 11:26,  chargein...@gmail.com wrote:
 Comrades,

 The funeral of comrade Clarence Mayekiso (Hadebe) will be held at the Roman 
 Catholic Church in town, Port Shepstone in KZN on Saturday, 15 November 2014:

 Hamba kakuhle, son of the soil!  You have served, suffered and sacrificed for 
 the African Cause.

 Izwe Lethu

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Re: [PAYCO] SAd news

2014-11-14 Thread Fikiswa Ntshwanti
Thanks MÁfrika.

On 14 November 2014 10:43,  chargein...@gmail.com wrote:
 Comrade Fikiswa

 Pls contact cde Sebenzile for lift at 0713501073 or sms your contacts to me 
 (0710203554).

  --
 Sent from my Nokia phone

 --Original message--
 From: Fikiswa Ntshwanti fikis...@gmail.com
 To: payco payco@googlegroups.com
 Date: Thursday, November 13, 2014 7:45:57 AM GMT+0200
 Subject: Re: [PAYCO] SAd news

 Izwe lethu MaÁfrika amahle. Ndicela ilift kwabayayo from Gauteng.

 On 12 November 2014 11:26,  chargein...@gmail.com wrote:
 Comrades,

 The funeral of comrade Clarence Mayekiso (Hadebe) will be held at the Roman 
 Catholic Church in town, Port Shepstone in KZN on Saturday, 15 November 2014:

 Hamba kakuhle, son of the soil!  You have served, suffered and sacrificed 
 for the African Cause.

 Izwe Lethu

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Re: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme

2014-10-27 Thread matome
I have to say that this initiative Cde Linda, has to be supported and I am sure 
there are many who support it except those of our members who are beholden and 
pocket owned. This we must understand, and they will be rescued from the claws 
of the hyenas in time but we have to move the PAC off the idling state. This 
particularly has my support given its focus on a radicalisation program of 
action. If this effort will be categorised as a faction, it is one and the only 
one I will gladly associate myself with !!!

I also think all involved must be ruthless in the intolerance of mediocrity and 
the ideological nonsense going on in the party, including some statements made 
in the name of the PAC which are at total variance with the ideological stance 
of the party. 

It is the nice nice approach that has made all of us complicit in the 
assassination of the party. There has to be a certain level of 'madness' in 
resolving our state especially because the game is not inside but outside of 
the PAC. The people need leadership. They are confronting the system bare 
knuckles, and the regime is killing, only these socalled NEC want to wage a 
suit and tie struggle.

Those who wish to defend the current mediocrity due to the 10 shilling support 
they get from it, we will rescue them as the train moves. The clock has been 
ticking for sometime now, and I for one commend the effort and urge you and 
team to up the heat. Those who see leadership as a suit and tie, and as an 
office and pen struggle, they must continue on that line but should be informed 
that they represent themselves. They have veered off the PAC historical 
mandate, only to pursue personal prestige never wanting to uproot the system. 
We must not seek to administer the system better, we must uproot it through all 
means legal and non legal. Only these mediocres want to be gentle. Even the 
regime is operating illegally, killing and destroying our people 's lives. Yes 
you are right, that this liberal girlish apology line being pursued cannot be 
in our name.

Those who are beholden to 10 shillings can differ with us here and quitely 
support us in the quiteness of their homes, we will rescue them as we move. We 
understand their difficulty. Those with wrong sheepish approach to the ruling 
elite must not do it in our name, they should form an NGO to pursue that. It is 
not costly to form an NGO.

Let the date for the end of November meeting be decided and we shall attend and 
nothing should stop us from radicalising the party to confront the regime. The 
pretence that people are against the system must cease, we must now go for the 
jagular, and if need be water this new page with our blood just as ordinary 
people are already doing !!

As for journalistic question and answer sessions, and a request for further 
particulars' approach by some here, I will advise that the focus should be on 
the essence and the key message, a message of a Program of Action aimed at 
confronting and millitarisation.

Izwe Lethu

Matome Mashao

Sent from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Mphiri Masoga mphi...@gmail.com
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 09:59:02 
To: payco@googlegroups.compayco@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme


Good Morning Linda 

Who are the former Presidents who attended the meeting  where were the current 
Presidents and what is the Status of the so called former Presidents of that 
meeting?

As far as I can recall most or many of the so called Former Presidents left the 
organisation and or are operating outside party fold.   

What do you call your group former Presidents or another so called faction or 
grouping?

 Can you also identify the NEC groupings you mentioned in your correspondence, 
on what capacity are you writing   
kind Regards, 

Mphiri Masoga 
SACWU PTA
Tel : 012 320 6472
Fax : 012 320 2179
Fax2Email: 0862254254
Cell : 0731822656

-Original Message-
From: Linda Ndebele kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:06:09 
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme

Revolutionary greetings,
 
To all PAC members and structures:
 
After much pain and disappointments caused by the three purported NEC 
groupings, a meeting was held in Johannesburg over the whole of this past 
Saturday, 25 October 2014, to consider options available to correct and 
radicalize the PAC which has of late been on an apologetic liberal path. We 
resolved on a Final Push to intervene and bring solutions to the party 's 
faction-based and leadership capacity challenges. The meeting widens in scope 
at our next meeting scheduled for the end of November 2014. The Saturday 
meeting was high-powered, decisive and candid, attended by former Payco 
Presidents, Former PASMA Presidents, as well as leading PAC figures. Key 
resolutions

RE: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme

2014-10-27 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Cde Masoga

I Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi, formed part of the meeting reported by Cde Linda 
Ndebele, all comrades who attended the meeting on the 15th October 2014 are PAC 
members in as far as I recalled none of them were expelled nor terminated their 
PAC membership. However, who attended the meeting is immaterial what is 
substantive is to arrest the disintegration of the PAC by feuds and self 
selving individuals pursuing rightist political line. 

The most basic and straightforward aspect that must be addressed  and agreed to 
is:-

1. Unity of PAC branches and members for the seizure of state political power 
and establishment of an Africanist Socialist Democracy;
2. We need a mediation team to facilitate dissolution of parallel structures 
across the country and organisation of an inclusive national conference of PAC;
3. To form a Programme of Action Team which will undertake to develop a 
political Programme of Action to advance and establish an Africanist Socialist 
Democracy;
4. Any person against unity of PAC members must be denounced by PAC Branches 
and members;

Cde Masoga, you either agree with the above four (4) points or not! Please do 
not play the person by avoiding the ball. The continuing disunity in the PAC is 
heavely undermining execution of the 1959 Pan Africanist Manifesto and this 
must be stopped, PAC Must Rise To Lead And To Govern Azaia!

Shango lashu
Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
 
-Original Message-
From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Mphiri Masoga
Sent: 27 October 2014 11:59 AM
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme


Good Morning Linda 

Who are the former Presidents who attended the meeting  where were the current 
Presidents and what is the Status of the so called former Presidents of that 
meeting?

As far as I can recall most or many of the so called Former Presidents left the 
organisation and or are operating outside party fold.   

What do you call your group former Presidents or another so called faction or 
grouping?

 Can you also identify the NEC groupings you mentioned in your correspondence, 
on what capacity are you writing   
kind Regards, 

Mphiri Masoga
SACWU PTA
Tel : 012 320 6472
Fax : 012 320 2179
Fax2Email: 0862254254
Cell : 0731822656

-Original Message-
From: Linda Ndebele kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:06:09
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme

Revolutionary greetings,
 
To all PAC members and structures:
 
After much pain and disappointments caused by the three purported NEC 
groupings, a meeting was held in Johannesburg over the whole of this past 
Saturday, 25 October 2014, to consider options available to correct and 
radicalize the PAC which has of late been on an apologetic liberal path. We 
resolved on a Final Push to intervene and bring solutions to the party 's 
faction-based and leadership capacity challenges. The meeting widens in scope 
at our next meeting scheduled for the end of November 2014. The Saturday 
meeting was high-powered, decisive and candid, attended by former Payco 
Presidents, Former PASMA Presidents, as well as leading PAC figures. Key 
resolutions taken include the following:
 
1.To denounce all three feuding NEC groups 2.To 
form ourselves as a Programme of Action Team for an Africanist Socialist 
Democracy 3.To form a mediation team to engage and pursue the 
three feuding factions 4.Call for the convening of an All 
Inclusive Conference (open to all party members) administered by an independent 
team with an objective to consolidate party unity and to adopt a National 
Programme of Action for seizure of state political power and establishment of 
an Africanist Socialist Democracy 5.To call for the three 
purported NEC’s to report and account in a national Conference 6.   
 Mobilise and Engage party members, branches and veterans
   
 
In conclusion, we make this call to all our cadres and all PAC members to join 
us on a path to re-build and re-organise the Party-PAC on a radical 
revolutionary Program of Action. Our definitive focus is the aggressive 
resolution of our problems using the Program of Action as the principal means. 
It is a call not to be missed !!
 
Linda K Ndebele
Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!

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RE: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme

2014-10-27 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
M'Afrika Percy

In as much one wishes to answer your question, the failure to answer is carried 
within your own question because of the following anormalies that occurred, 
without being dragged and drawn into internal feuding details, what is 
confronting us is the forward movement of the PAC. Hence, we posit before all 
members that it is imminent that PAC branches and members denounce anyone 
advocating Anti-Unity, secondly we urge all PAC branches and members to unite 
on the basis of a Programme of Action for the Seizure of State Political Power 
to Advance and Establish the Africanist Socialist Democracy! Hence we urge and 
appeal with all PAC Branches and members to organise inclusive regional and 
provincial conferences as we engage the three (3) feuding NECs to unite on the 
basis of Programme of Action! 

Rena Ga Re Nyake Ditshele, Re Nyaka Revolution!

Shnago Lashu
Nkrumah Raymond Kgaudi   

-Original Message-
From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of percy 
motswaledi
Sent: 27 October 2014 03:09 PM
To: payco@googlegroups.com; Mphiri Masoga
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme

Good Day MoAfrika Linda

its Lion of Azania Here
Mr Mphiri Masoga is attacking you in public Platform and with Emmotions i want 
us to enterogate his Emotions because they may have different meaning and this 
time i am sure one covers his failures and its a petty that people look at 
their stomach and forget about the Broather Movement, From me, The Meeting that 
discuss the revaival of PAC is Relevant that to interogate the status od the 
Meeting, i have a quetion YOU all, Who is PAc president and what is he doing to 
build the Party,if he is doing some thing, where is he doing it, that man he is 
Invisible and we wand Visibility.

Now my suggestion is Stop Harassing the Frastrated Africans and Champion real 
challenges affecting p[eople and Start with Ebola



On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 09:59:02 + Mphiri Masoga mphi...@gmail.com wrote

 Good Morning Linda
 
 Who are the former Presidents who attended the meeting  where were 
 the current Presidents and what is the Status of the so called former 
 Presidents of that meeting?

 As far as I can recall most or many of the so called Former Presidents left
 the organisation and or are operating outside party fold.

 What do you call your group former Presidents or another so called faction
 or grouping? 

  Can you also identify the NEC groupings you mentioned in your
 correspondence, on what capacity are you writingkind Regards, 
 
 Mphiri Masoga
 SACWU PTA
 Tel : 012 320 6472
 Fax : 012 320 2179
 Fax2Email: 0862254254
 Cell : 0731822656
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Linda Ndebele kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za
 Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:06:09
 To: payco@googlegroups.com
 Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
 Subject: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme
 
 Revolutionary greetings,
  
 To all PAC members and structures:
  
 After much pain and disappointments caused by the three purported NEC 
 groupings, a meeting was held in Johannesburg over the whole of this 
 past Saturday, 25 October 2014, to consider options available to 
 correct and radicalize the PAC which has of late been on an apologetic 
 liberal path. We resolved on a Final Push to intervene and bring 
 solutions to the party 's faction-based and leadership capacity 
 challenges. The meeting widens in
scope
 at our next meeting scheduled for the end of November 2014. The 
 Saturday meeting was high-powered, decisive and candid, attended by 
 former Payco Presidents, Former PASMA Presidents, as well as leading 
 PAC figures. Key resolutions taken include the following:
 1.To denounce all three feuding NEC groups 2.
 To form ourselves as a Programme of Action Team for an Africanist 
 Socialist Democracy 3.
 To form a mediation team to engage and pursue the three feuding 
 factions 4.Call for the convening of an All Inclusive 
 Conference (open to all party members) administered by an independent 
 team with an objective to consolidate party unity and to adopt a 
 National Programme of Action for seizure of state political power and 
 establishment
of
 an Africanist Socialist Democracy 5.To call for the 
 three purported NEC’s to report and account in a national Conference 
 6.Mobilise and Engage party members, branches and 
 veterans
  
 In conclusion, we make this call to all our cadres and all PAC members 
 to join us on a path to re-build and re-organise the Party-PAC on a 
 radical revolutionary Program of Action. Our definitive focus is the 
 aggressive resolution of our problems using the Program of Action as 
 the principal means. It is a call not to be missed !!
 Linda K Ndebele
 Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!
 
 --
 --
 Sending your posting to payco@googlegroups.com
 
 Unsubscribe

Re: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme

2014-10-27 Thread Linda Ndebele
Cde Mphiri,

My apologies for responding late. I have been driving for the last 4 hours and 
could not respond in time to your enquiries.

I wrote the communique as the co-convener of the meeting and former President 
of PAYCO who is really concerned about the state of the party.

We are committed party members who want the PAC to re-establish its original 
mandate, of being a revolutionary socialist movement, that seeks to overturn 
the current capitalist society and create an Africanist Socialist democracy. We 
are not outside the party at all.

Currently we have 3 feuding NEC's, Letlapa's NEC, Mphethi's NEC and 
Narious-Mbinda NEC. We don't believe this situation is good for the party 
hence this intervention.

We are party members, if our party is under attack we would not ask anyone's 
permission to defend it. We have a duty to defend the legacy of PAC pioneers 
and the future of African people.

We are revolutionary Pan Africanist and members of the PAC who have led party 
structures at different level. We are cadres who believe party members must be 
rallied and mobilized around a Programme of Action as opposed to personalities 
and factions.

We shall have many engagements with party members through social networks, 
communique's, visits in different branches, regions, provinces and other 
national gatherings. We shall be everywhere where PAC is discussed to ensure 
that the agenda is programme of action, seizure of state power and Unification 
of Africa not personalities and factional agendas.

We want to lead a revolt not to assimilate to the parliamentary nonsense that 
different factions are fighting over.

PAC needs to lead real revolution not tokenism.

Hope you will find this in order.

Linda Ndebele
Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!

-Original Message-
From: Mphiri Masoga mphi...@gmail.com
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 09:59:02 
To: payco@googlegroups.compayco@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme


Good Morning Linda 

Who are the former Presidents who attended the meeting  where were the current 
Presidents and what is the Status of the so called former Presidents of that 
meeting?

As far as I can recall most or many of the so called Former Presidents left the 
organisation and or are operating outside party fold.   

What do you call your group former Presidents or another so called faction or 
grouping?

 Can you also identify the NEC groupings you mentioned in your correspondence, 
on what capacity are you writing   
kind Regards, 

Mphiri Masoga 
SACWU PTA
Tel : 012 320 6472
Fax : 012 320 2179
Fax2Email: 0862254254
Cell : 0731822656

-Original Message-
From: Linda Ndebele kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:06:09 
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme

Revolutionary greetings,
 
To all PAC members and structures:
 
After much pain and disappointments caused by the three purported NEC 
groupings, a meeting was held in Johannesburg over the whole of this past 
Saturday, 25 October 2014, to consider options available to correct and 
radicalize the PAC which has of late been on an apologetic liberal path. We 
resolved on a Final Push to intervene and bring solutions to the party 's 
faction-based and leadership capacity challenges. The meeting widens in scope 
at our next meeting scheduled for the end of November 2014. The Saturday 
meeting was high-powered, decisive and candid, attended by former Payco 
Presidents, Former PASMA Presidents, as well as leading PAC figures. Key 
resolutions taken include the following:
 
1.    To denounce all three feuding NEC groups
2.    To form ourselves as a Programme of Action Team for an 
Africanist Socialist Democracy
3.    To form a mediation team to engage and pursue the three 
feuding factions
4.    Call for the convening of an All Inclusive Conference (open 
to all party members) administered by an independent team with an objective to 
consolidate party unity and to adopt a National Programme of Action for seizure 
of state political power and establishment of an Africanist Socialist Democracy
5.    To call for the three purported NEC’s to report and account 
in a national Conference
6.    Mobilise and Engage party members, branches and veterans
   
 
In conclusion, we make this call to all our cadres and all PAC members to join 
us on a path to re-build and re-organise the Party-PAC on a radical 
revolutionary Program of Action. Our definitive focus is the aggressive 
resolution of our problems using the Program of Action as the principal means. 
It is a call not to be missed !!
 
Linda K Ndebele
Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!

-- 
-- 
Sending your posting to payco

Re: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme

2014-10-27 Thread AUBREY NGWATLE
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 15:29:22 +0200 Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
nrkgag...@gmail.com wrote

 M'Afrika Percy
 
 In as much one wishes to answer your question, the failure to answer is
 carried within your own question because of the following anormalies that
 occurred, without being dragged and drawn into internal feuding details,
what
 is confronting us is the forward movement of the PAC. Hence, we posit before
 all members that it is imminent that PAC branches and members denounce
anyone
 advocating Anti-Unity, secondly we urge all PAC branches and members to
unite
 on the basis of a Programme of Action for the Seizure of State Political
 Power to Advance and Establish the Africanist Socialist Democracy! Hence we
 urge and appeal with all PAC Branches and members to organise inclusive
 regional and provincial conferences as we engage the three (3) feuding NECs
 to unite on the basis of Programme of Action!  

 Rena Ga Re Nyake Ditshele, Re Nyaka Revolution!
 
 Shnago Lashu
 Nkrumah Raymond Kgaudi   
 
 -Original Message-
 From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
 percy motswaledi Sent: 27 October 2014 03:09 PM
 To: payco@googlegroups.com; Mphiri Masoga
 Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme
 
 Good Day MoAfrika Linda
 
 its Lion of Azania Here
 Mr Mphiri Masoga is attacking you in public Platform and with Emmotions i
 want us to enterogate his Emotions because they may have different meaning
 and this time i am sure one covers his failures and its a petty that people
 look at their stomach and forget about the Broather Movement, From me, The
 Meeting that discuss the revaival of PAC is Relevant that to interogate the
 status od the Meeting, i have a quetion YOU all, Who is PAc president and
 what is he doing to build the Party,if he is doing some thing, where is he
 doing it, that man he is Invisible and we wand Visibility. 

 Now my suggestion is Stop Harassing the Frastrated Africans and Champion
real
 challenges affecting p[eople and Start with Ebola 

 
 
 On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 09:59:02 + Mphiri Masoga mphi...@gmail.com wrote
 
  Good Morning Linda
  
  Who are the former Presidents who attended the meeting  where were 
  the current Presidents and what is the Status of the so called former 
  Presidents of that meeting?
 
  As far as I can recall most or many of the so called Former Presidents
left
  the organisation and or are operating outside party fold.
 
  What do you call your group former Presidents or another so called
  faction or grouping? 
 
   Can you also identify the NEC groupings you mentioned in your
  correspondence, on what capacity are you writingkind Regards, 
  
  Mphiri Masoga
  SACWU PTA
  Tel : 012 320 6472
  Fax : 012 320 2179
  Fax2Email: 0862254254
  Cell : 0731822656
  
  -Original Message-
  From: Linda Ndebele kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za
  Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
  Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:06:09
  To: payco@googlegroups.com
  Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
  Subject: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme
  
  Revolutionary greetings,
   
  To all PAC members and structures:
   
  After much pain and disappointments caused by the three purported NEC 
  groupings, a meeting was held in Johannesburg over the whole of this 
  past Saturday, 25 October 2014, to consider options available to 
  correct and radicalize the PAC which has of late been on an apologetic 
  liberal path. We resolved on a Final Push to intervene and bring 
  solutions to the party 's faction-based and leadership capacity 
  challenges. The meeting widens in
 scope
  at our next meeting scheduled for the end of November 2014. The 
  Saturday meeting was high-powered, decisive and candid, attended by 
  former Payco Presidents, Former PASMA Presidents, as well as leading 
  PAC figures. Key resolutions taken include the following:
  1.To denounce all three feuding NEC groups 2. 

To form ourselves as a Programme of Action Team for an Africanist 
  Socialist Democracy 3.
  To form a mediation team to engage and pursue the three feuding 
  factions 4.Call for the convening of an All Inclusive 
  Conference (open to all party members) administered by an independent 
  team with an objective to consolidate party unity and to adopt a 
  National Programme of Action for seizure of state political power and 
  establishment
 of
  an Africanist Socialist Democracy 5.To call for the 
  three purported NEC’s to report and account in a national Conference 
  6.Mobilise and Engage party members, branches and 
  veterans
   
  In conclusion, we make this call to all our cadres and all PAC members 
  to join us on a path to re-build and re-organise the Party-PAC on a 
  radical revolutionary Program of Action. Our definitive focus is the 
  aggressive resolution of our problems using the Program of Action as 
  the principal means. It is a call

Re: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme

2014-10-27 Thread matome
Comrade Lion,

I agree entirely with the essence of your email. You are right to implore us 
away from trifles; to focus us on the challenge of leading our people to 
battle. 

One of the reasons mediocrity has managed to take control of the party, and to 
divert it from its historical radical line is by beating our advanced and 
revolutionary cadres into despondency. The strategy of these mediocres is to 
pile up the pressure of frustration against our competent cadres until only 
them are left to scavenge on the party, squeezing its soul while using only the 
name of the party but rejecting all its principles. Once they have beaten all 
of us into frustration, they run amok with the party, stamping their line of 
apology and suit and tie modicum as the defining thrust of the party. They then 
label everyone who dare question why they have turned the PAC into a 
kind-hearted sweet goat instead of retaining its historical mandate as a war 
machinery for our people. They label any talk of revolution as ridiculous and 
call some of us as being 'too much'. Too much for what ? Yes we must be too 
much and beyond to fight the regime that is killing, stealing and destroying 
everything. They want us to be civil and reasonable against a regime that is 
shooting our people and starving a vast majority. That is why they call us too 
much. 

This apologists have in fact taken over the party although they represent 
everything against the party. We have to be forthright and targeted in the 
assault of this line for it is as good as having the regime running our party. 
They gate-keep for the regime, stopping us from declaring a war against a 
regime that is blood thirsty and blood sucking !

We have shared thoughts on the thrust of a program of action, and that has to 
be pursued with or without them. What has become apparent though is that we 
cannot assign the execution of this revolutionary bloody program to them 
bacause they don't believe in it. They believe in administration instead of 
believing in its collapse through mass action, armed uprising, street fights et 
cetera.

We must lose all manner of tolerance towards this group because it is not PAC 
whatsoever. It is a negation of the many martyrs who died for us. 

Only this line is correct, the line of a Program of Action. We have said it 
over and over again, and since some of them ara incapable of hearing or seeing 
just like the belligerence of the regime, we must this time ram it into their 
heads by whatever means necessary.

We cannot be delayed to engage the regime. The workers are ready, the students 
are ready, the poor masses are ready ! Only these socalled leaders of 'ours' 
are not ready and prefer a gentleman 's talk. Not in our name !!!

Izwe Lethu

Matome Mashao

Sent from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: AUBREY NGWATLE angwa...@webmail.co.za
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 19:49:06 
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 15:29:22 +0200 Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
nrkgag...@gmail.com wrote

 M'Afrika Percy
 
 In as much one wishes to answer your question, the failure to answer is
 carried within your own question because of the following anormalies that
 occurred, without being dragged and drawn into internal feuding details,
what
 is confronting us is the forward movement of the PAC. Hence, we posit before
 all members that it is imminent that PAC branches and members denounce
anyone
 advocating Anti-Unity, secondly we urge all PAC branches and members to
unite
 on the basis of a Programme of Action for the Seizure of State Political
 Power to Advance and Establish the Africanist Socialist Democracy! Hence we
 urge and appeal with all PAC Branches and members to organise inclusive
 regional and provincial conferences as we engage the three (3) feuding NECs
 to unite on the basis of Programme of Action!  

 Rena Ga Re Nyake Ditshele, Re Nyaka Revolution!
 
 Shnago Lashu
 Nkrumah Raymond Kgaudi   
 
 -Original Message-
 From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
 percy motswaledi Sent: 27 October 2014 03:09 PM
 To: payco@googlegroups.com; Mphiri Masoga
 Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Revolutionary Pan Africanist Programme
 
 Good Day MoAfrika Linda
 
 its Lion of Azania Here
 Mr Mphiri Masoga is attacking you in public Platform and with Emmotions i
 want us to enterogate his Emotions because they may have different meaning
 and this time i am sure one covers his failures and its a petty that people
 look at their stomach and forget about the Broather Movement, From me, The
 Meeting that discuss the revaival of PAC is Relevant that to interogate the
 status od the Meeting, i have a quetion YOU all, Who is PAc president and
 what is he doing to build the Party,if he is doing some thing, where is he
 doing it, that man he is Invisible and we wand Visibility. 

 Now my suggestion

Re: [PAYCO] Determing A Good Standing Branch

2014-10-14 Thread 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
Comrades Comrade Ray what Apa communicated it is a true reflection of the 
discussions held. That is why already there is a fabrication about the meeting 
outcome because the effect of that unity and its expansion thereof as you put 
it will go a long way in assisting stabilising the party. I also briefed the 
meeting about the gathering we postponed and that very soon there is a need to 
engage further as many PAC people as possible. What was good about the meeting 
is that most of us who attended the meeting have post unity leadership 
ambitions so that all what you do Ray, Linda, Siya and all other comrades get 
unqualified support. I am saying this because other people think that in this 
current crisis they will opportunistically rise to the top hence their 
behaviour. Anyway ll the best comrades. 

 On Monday, October 13, 2014 12:14 PM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi 
nrkgag...@gmail.com wrote:
   

 !--#yiv9791564402 _filtered #yiv9791564402 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 
5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv9791564402 #yiv9791564402 p.yiv9791564402MsoNormal, 
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#yiv9791564402 {} _filtered #yiv9791564402 {}#yiv9791564402 ol 
{margin-bottom:0cm;}#yiv9791564402 ul {margin-bottom:0cm;}-- Determining a 
Good Standing Branch! Izwe lethu  During the Leadership Development Workshop 
held on the 11th October 2014, attended by 7 Branch Executive Committees coming 
from Johannesburg Region plus PASO members and Eastrand/ Ekhuruleni Regional 
Executive Committee member, the constitutional interpretation and application 
of the concept-principle member(s) in Good Standing and/or branch(es) in Good 
Standing lost its full comprehensive meaning and content. And this largely, 
furthermore explains some of the political and organisational problems facing 
the party.   The incorrect thus incomplete interpretation and application of 
the principle Good Standing has been reduced to narrowly imply :-• A member in 
good standing has been understood and applied as meaning a paid up member from 
a launched branch with at least 20 paid members; • and a branch in good 
standing meant which had its Annual General and with 20 plus paid up members 
having an elected Branch Executive Committee;  This (above) interpretation is 
incomplete since it focus narrowly on selected few clauses which are mainly 
administrative and partly organisational, but this interpretation ignored the 
political requirements to define and describe a Good Standing Branch and a Good 
Standing Member. Section 20.1 until 20.3 provide almost eight requirements 
which further provides a description of what constitutes a PAC branch 
constitutionally for a branch to politically qualify and meet the first part to 
be a Good Standing Branch! These eight requirement are well described and 
stated in section   Political Component and Elements:-  
| Clause No. |    | Applicable Constitutional Requirement-Prescripts |
| 20.1 |
   -   
 | Carry organizational work amongst the masses |
|
   -   
 | Carry educational work amongst the masses |
|
   -   
 | Acquaint them with the aims and objects, policies and programmes of the 
organization |
| 20.2 |
   -   
 | Keep (continuous and constant) close contact with the masses and  |
|
   -   
 | Provide continual leadership and guidance to the oppressed people in area |
| 20.3 |
   -   
 | Foster the spirit of initiative among the people  |
|
   -   
 | Take the leading part in organizing the masses to solve problem in the area. 
|
|
   -   
 | Organise the masses to solve their problems in the area |

    Therefore, a branch can be deemed as a Good Standing branch because it 
fully complies with clause 20.1 until 20.3, its (branch) activities which 
serves as evidence to demonstrate and proof that the branch’ political mandates 
as per clause 20.1 until 20.3 had been carried out. The above diagram should 
also be understood within the context that the PAC considers a branch 

Re: [PAYCO] PAC National Conference, Bloemfontein

2014-09-29 Thread Tongogara Ndima
Moaforika Vusie

You are correct on one issue, as PAC members we need a unifying inclusive
conference, not this political gimmicks. In less than three years PAC had
three Presidents and three Deputy Presidents as follows:

2012 July Butterworth Congress: Cde Letlapa Mphahlele elected as President
with Cde Alton Mpethi as Deputy President; within 12 months after the 2012
July national congress
2013 August Bitchwood Conference: Cde Alton Mpethi is confirmed as Presient
with Cde Mike Muendane as Deputy President; again within 12 months after
the 2013 August national conference
2014 September Bloemfontein Conference: Cde Luthando Mpinda is confirmed as
President with Cde Sbusiso Xaba as Deputy President; what next within 12
months after the 2014 September conference?


PAC has become a national mockery, but also PAC is falling apart with many
PAC members withdrawing from active party participation and programmes. As
we speak the PAC no longer exist in Free State, Northwest province,
Mpumalanga, Northern Cape and party exists in Kwa-Zulu Natal! PAC used to
have structures and branches in these province before the QwaQwa National
Congress, but ever since then-until today we see it happening before our
very own eyes - PAC is dying silently.

Izwe lethu
Ndima



On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 3:53 PM, vusie vu...@telkomsa.net wrote:


 Don't be surprised to see most of those who are at forefront calling
 inclusive National Conference/Congress in December and confusing genuine
 Africanist not to attend PAC National Conference in Boemfontein being part
 of the same conference, it sad because we were mislead and denied
 opportunity to attend PAC National Confrencee

 Find attached photo


 Vusie Makhathini, 0826754796

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Re: [PAYCO] PAC National Conference, Bloemfontein

2014-09-28 Thread 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
MoAfrika Vusie
 
You are simply playfull and enjoy this party going up and down with no 
programme. There is nothing genuine and noble to what you are saying. You are 
behaving like someone who is idling in politics so anyone can make you say and 
do what he wishes.
  


On Sunday, September 28, 2014 3:54 PM, vusie vu...@telkomsa.net wrote:
  



Don't be surprised to see most of those who are at forefront calling inclusive 
National Conference/Congress in December and confusing genuine Africanist not 
to attend PAC National Conference in Boemfontein being part of the same 
conference, it sad because we were mislead and denied opportunity to attend PAC 
National Confrencee


Find attached photo


Vusie Makhathini, 0826754796
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Re: [PAYCO] Statement of Position - Program of Action

2014-09-21 Thread matome
Cde Linda, 

Your express commitment to a choice is noted Son of the soil.

Here and elsewhere, this must be the cardinal point. Simply put, and it was 
best articulated by one comrade on this platform, are we ready to die for the 
cuase of revolution or not? In my opinion there is no better way to put it, and 
I am yet to see or study of a bloodless revolution. As we speak now, the ruling 
elite in SA is already on a massacre course. You can count Tatane, Marikana, 
and many other police killings daily. So quite overtly the question of a 
bloodless revolution is already off the picture here at 'home'.

The unfortunate thing is that we have either skated around this issue or 
allowed dubious characters to skate around it, and even tolerate that they can 
call themselves our leaders. Leaders of what ? Leaders of opportunism masked in 
sloganeering, gentlemanism, cowardice?

It is for this reason that any idea that rallies around individuals and not a 
program of action is fallacious and dodgy to say the least. It cannot be too 
much to ask, that let's set out a program on what has to be done first before 
punting some gatherings and personalities which are doomed to fail. 

It is a solid inference to be drawn that these characters are opponents of the 
revolt line. They prefer to keep us busy for as long as we don't storm the 
regime and the broad church. They gate keep for the broad church and keep us 
lulled into abstinence from burning it down. These revolt line opponents who 
are within the party buy young people with shillings which has itself deepend 
the intricacy of the problem. The sane voice saying to the young that they 
should look for a job so that they have the right to think and that if they 
can't find a job they must become an army of assault against the broad church 
is submerged by the conformists in the party.

With a program as the first basis for everything, we will know who is with us, 
atleast from an expression perspective, and who is not. I can tell you that 
your re-assessment of your role in the party is a feeling shared by many. 

We will have to keep our heads down focus on this program of action, and hope 
still that it is the PAC that will pick it up, failing which the revolution 
will find its custodians. This is because content supersedes form, agenda 
supersedes a vehicle. 

I do not wish to refer you to the Iota program which we drafted over ten years 
ago and how rhetoric parties have taken to literally everything we said and 
pre-empted. This is because it pains me that my party can engage in so much 
wastage, and the promotion of apology as its defining line.

In brief, I am saying, we need more declarations, here and elsewhere on whether 
we are on a sweet sweet line or we are on a death death program line. It is 
that simple. I am not a gifted academic nor philosopher, otherwise I would have 
put it in some nice verbiage. I am not of that make.

Matome Mashao

Sent from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Linda Ndebele kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 17:06:28 
To: payco@googlegroups.com; 'Michael Muendane'm...@soultalk.co.za; 'Mbulelo 
Raymond'mrfihl...@gmail.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Cc: po...@yahoo.com; tyamza...@yahoo.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; 
jntab...@gmail.com; paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; 
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; znyam...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; 
i...@bataufc.com; moshemahlom...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; 
bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; digashuma...@gmail.com; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; monyanepin...@gmail.com; ad...@pac.org.za; 
ndhlo...@pac.org.za; dud...@webmail.co.za; lea...@hotmail.com; 
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; richardma...@yahoo.com; 
ntsiemohl...@gmail.com; mnd...@yahoo.com; mop...@pac.org.za; 
mvakalijust...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; tnta...@webmail.co.za; 
aplamv...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Statement of Position - Program of Action

Cde Matome,

I wish to express my gratitude to the continous rationale manner you approach 
challenges facing our party and our revolutionary task. Indeed I agree with you 
that we have to make a choice between Revolting or conforming to the system. 
Making such a choice is critical to know who are with the masses of our people 
(revolt route) or those with the system (conforming route).

I wish to state where I stand. I stand for revolt. I know the implications of 
taking this route to me personally, professionally, financially and 
politically. I know that one stands to loose his life, be unpopular, growth 
professionally, financial difficulties and political isolation within the party 
and outside the party. I have considered all these consequences of this 
decision but despite and inspite of these I prefer to stand with the masses of 
my people. I stand for revolt and martyrdom.

I have gone through

Re: [PAYCO] Statement of Position - Program of Action

2014-09-21 Thread mmbarahk
Revolutionary Greetings,

The document eloquently articulates the historic tasks which must embody the 
revolutionary programme of our times.

Executed to the letter and spirit embodied therein, the struggle for the 
liberation of the African working class in particular and humanity in general 
will be bloody, hard and long but victorious in the end.

The revolt we speak of must be nothing like the painful insider backed 
miscarriage that culminated in 1994.

Like all revolutions, the struggle of our people must be guided, defended and 
guarded against infiltrating and renegade enermies who will try to derail and 
sabotage the machinery of revolutionary command.

I raise my hand to partake in the inevitable revolt of our people. 
Unfortunately for many within our ranks who have long ditched the motto of our 
party - serve, suffer and sacrifice remain the enduring character of any 
revolutionary movement.

I shall contribute my humble views to the complete draft programme of action.

Izwelethu!



Sent from Samsung tabletLinda Ndebele kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za wrote:
Cde Matome,

I wish to express my gratitude to the continous rationale manner you approach 
challenges facing our party and our revolutionary task. Indeed I agree with you 
that we have to make a choice between Revolting or conforming to the system. 
Making such a choice is critical to know who are with the masses of our people 
(revolt route) or those with the system (conforming route).

I wish to state where I stand. I stand for revolt. I know the implications of 
taking this route to me personally, professionally, financially and 
politically. I know that one stands to loose his life, be unpopular, growth 
professionally, financial difficulties and political isolation within the party 
and outside the party. I have considered all these consequences of this 
decision but despite and inspite of these I prefer to stand with the masses of 
my people. I stand for revolt and martyrdom.

I have gone through the position statement of the Programme of Action and agree 
wholeheartedly with it. I will share some of my contributions with the main 
contents of the programme of action. I strongly believe we need to embark on 
serious cadreship development if we have to succeed with mass mobilization and 
produce quality leaders to lead our people into revolutionary action.

Count me in therefore on revolt cadre.

Izwe lethu!

Linda Kwame Ndebele
Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!

-Original Message-
From: matome mmas...@webmail.co.za
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 20:26:57
To: payco@googlegroups.com; 'Michael Muendane'm...@soultalk.co.za; 'Mbulelo 
Raymond'mrfihl...@gmail.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Cc: po...@yahoo.com; tyamza...@yahoo.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; 
jntab...@gmail.com; paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; 
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; znyam...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; 
i...@bataufc.com; moshemahlom...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; 
bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; digashuma...@gmail.com; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; monyanepin...@gmail.com; ad...@pac.org.za; 
ndhlo...@pac.org.za; dud...@webmail.co.za; lea...@hotmail.com; 
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; richardma...@yahoo.com; 
ntsiemohl...@gmail.com; mnd...@yahoo.com; mop...@pac.org.za; 
mvakalijust...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; tnta...@webmail.co.za; 
aplamv...@gmail.com
Subject: [PAYCO] Statement of Position - Program of Action

Dear Comrades,

Find herewith attached the thrust of a revolutionary program (in development). 
It is our view that the choice facing us today is between - Revolt and Conform. 
We must choose one, and so is the PAC. The choice is indeed less about 
'factions' or 'personalities' but about 'ROCO' - Revolt or Conform.

I have made my choice and I think the time has come for all of us to make our 
choices known so that we should not waste each other 's time in case we are on 
different agenda routes. It is better to engage in inner party struggle with 
comrades with whom a foundational outlook is shared than engage in wastage. 
Time is of the essence. Let's declare our colours.

Please read the attached and let us unchain each other to pursue what we each 
believe than keep each other in a chained adulterous relationship.

We cannot hurt in perpetuity unless we are part of the perpetrators. We must 
make a call - Revolt or Conform !

Matome Mashao


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Re: [PAYCO] coup is the only solution for PAC

2014-09-20 Thread matome
Comrade Gift and Others,

I hope you are well and good my friend.

I must commend you for mustering sufficient courage to make the point about the 
sinking ship that we are. You have indeed taken it to a higher level in terms 
of the chosen method of cleansing the party. Whether this method is right or 
not is another matter. Your level of impatience with mediocrity is commendable. 
It is my wish that we all can assume intolerance against incapacity, mediocrity 
and outright counter-revolution. It is the lack of this intolerance which 
threatens the party. If we all assume indignation against the destruction of 
what is left of the PAC, we may be able to save it from total closure.

The complexity lies here though: all these groups accuse each other of deviant 
agendas. So this begs the question: how deep is the damage on the party, and 
what precisely will it take to restore some respectable organisation. The jury 
is out on this one. Some argue that it is totally adulterated right from the 
centre, with divisions and mediocrity impacting on the young and old, 
themselves playing a part in that mediocrity as well. Others, hold a near 
religious view that somehow by some act the party will resuscitate.

Over the years, in view of all of these, the party has developed a self-eating 
culture. The culture of quarels not for revolution but for side-shows. This has 
blinded many of us from even seeing the good in each other.

It also interests me that we often talk of how opportunistic the charterists 
are. But equally how many amongst us share this opportunism with the 
charterists? Is it really true that a majority of us are not opportunistic and 
non-charterist minded ? We must differentiate the lack of exposure to 
opportunism from our ability to withstand it. Is it not true that there are 
many amongst us who given a chance would do just what the charterists are 
doing? So the reality may also just be the fact that our members are 'denied' a 
chance for opportunism; that if it were offered to them they will excel in it 
perhaps even better than the charterists themselves.

These questions have kept me thinking long and hard. It is the same question 
that many here have asked. And rightly they fear that they too like a 
generation following Sobukwe 's, will get old, and old they are becoming, into 
irrelevance, having denied themselves a chance for revolutionary participation. 
How much of a disabler is the PAC in its current form.

I have often argued that the agenda must supersede the vehicle. Yes, it never 
should be a lightly arrived at position to conclude that a vehicle is a wastage 
but it is a consideration we must brave and face.

The stories of hurt and disappointment are many including how we elevate 
mediocrity and shun home talent. 

I and others have made a call for a focus on a program of action. I am having 
to handle my own exploding level of irritation at those pushing for conferences 
and elections of individuals who neither have a program of action nor capacity. 
I am up to here !!! 

For my sanity I will keep to the work on the program of action, and hope it is 
the PAC that will drive some of the ideas we share in the document.

Izwe Lethu !

Matome Mashao

Sent from my BlackBerry®

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Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 14:28:31 
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] coup is the only solution for PAC

Comrade Gift

My first input on this discussion was that to rescue PAC from current maximum 
infiltration is to take extraordinary actions unfortunately at a human cost. I 
agree with you totally in your sentiments. PAC has been hijacked from us at gun 
point. We cannot get it back to us without a bitter fight. 

 --
Sent from my Nokia phone

--Original message--
From: 'gift fuzane' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress payco@googlegroups.com
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 14, 2014 1:21:17 PM GMT+0100
Subject: [PAYCO] coup is the only solution for PAC


This daily dialogues PAC members are busy with is not working. If my mind serve 
me well, this have been going on since from 80's. PAC is full of agents. Infact 
should I rather say PAC is an agent organization. Every leaders elected turns 
to work against the organization. 

Conference seems to fail in electing leaders cause these agents leaders are 
sponsored. The only solution to this problem we are facing is a coup. We retake 
PAC from people that thinks they own it. Appoint leaders that we think can 
unite the organization. We give them plan of action. Any one that is against 
our actions or takes us to courts will b assassinated. In order for us to fix 
PAC we need to take radical actions, period. 

Let us fix the organization once and for all.

United PAC
Zandisile aka Gift Fuzane 

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Re: [PAYCO] Statement of Position - Program of Action

2014-09-20 Thread Linda Ndebele
Cde Matome,

I wish to express my gratitude to the continous rationale manner you approach 
challenges facing our party and our revolutionary task. Indeed I agree with you 
that we have to make a choice between Revolting or conforming to the system. 
Making such a choice is critical to know who are with the masses of our people 
(revolt route) or those with the system (conforming route).

I wish to state where I stand. I stand for revolt. I know the implications of 
taking this route to me personally, professionally, financially and 
politically. I know that one stands to loose his life, be unpopular, growth 
professionally, financial difficulties and political isolation within the party 
and outside the party. I have considered all these consequences of this 
decision but despite and inspite of these I prefer to stand with the masses of 
my people. I stand for revolt and martyrdom.

I have gone through the position statement of the Programme of Action and agree 
wholeheartedly with it. I will share some of my contributions with the main 
contents of the programme of action. I strongly believe we need to embark on 
serious cadreship development if we have to succeed with mass mobilization and 
produce quality leaders to lead our people into revolutionary action.

Count me in therefore on revolt cadre.

Izwe lethu!

Linda Kwame Ndebele
Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!

-Original Message-
From: matome mmas...@webmail.co.za
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 20:26:57 
To: payco@googlegroups.com; 'Michael Muendane'm...@soultalk.co.za; 'Mbulelo 
Raymond'mrfihl...@gmail.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Cc: po...@yahoo.com; tyamza...@yahoo.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; 
jntab...@gmail.com; paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; 
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; znyam...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; 
i...@bataufc.com; moshemahlom...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; 
bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; digashuma...@gmail.com; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; monyanepin...@gmail.com; ad...@pac.org.za; 
ndhlo...@pac.org.za; dud...@webmail.co.za; lea...@hotmail.com; 
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; richardma...@yahoo.com; 
ntsiemohl...@gmail.com; mnd...@yahoo.com; mop...@pac.org.za; 
mvakalijust...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; tnta...@webmail.co.za; 
aplamv...@gmail.com
Subject: [PAYCO] Statement of Position - Program of Action

Dear Comrades,

Find herewith attached the thrust of a revolutionary program (in development). 
It is our view that the choice facing us today is between - Revolt and Conform. 
We must choose one, and so is the PAC. The choice is indeed less about 
'factions' or 'personalities' but about 'ROCO' - Revolt or Conform.

I have made my choice and I think the time has come for all of us to make our 
choices known so that we should not waste each other 's time in case we are on 
different agenda routes. It is better to engage in inner party struggle with 
comrades with whom a foundational outlook is shared than engage in wastage. 
Time is of the essence. Let's declare our colours. 

Please read the attached and let us unchain each other to pursue what we each 
believe than keep each other in a chained adulterous relationship. 

We cannot hurt in perpetuity unless we are part of the perpetrators. We must 
make a call - Revolt or Conform !

Matome Mashao


Sent from my BlackBerry®

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Re: [PAYCO] coup is the only solution for PAC

2014-09-16 Thread chargein461
Comrades,

Former US President, John F Kennedy rightly said, Those who make nonviolent 
revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable . His powerful 
advice was not taken serious by his successors up to Obama. In effect, they 
defied him. When Gaddafi and Assad in Libya and Syria, respectively, ask for 
dialogue, US led imperialism looked aside and bombed them. 

The current international politics is biased to interests of US-led 
imperialism. Typical example are: 
1. Nuclear crisis in Iran and North Korea. India, Israel and Pakistan  test 
their and US is just winking,

2. Iraq invaded Kuiwait and US retariated and liberated Kuwait. Israel bombed 
Gaza while US was busy winking,  

3. Crimea called for a referendum to break from Ukraine and condomned by US led 
imperiialism. Tommorrow Scoland goes for referundum to break from UK. America 
is again winkng,

4. US-led imperialism condomns Russia for supporting pro Russian rebels in 
Ukraine when same imperialists are supporting militarily Ukraine government and 
rebels in Syria in broad daylight. The same ISIS and Al Qaeda are product of US 
support.

5. The list is endless.   

South Africa must take the advice seriously. If nonviolent revolution cannot 
resolved the National Question (Land and Economic Question), violent revolution 
is inveitable in SA. Malema knows this fact and is exploiting it for his own 
agenda. Our country cannot afford to follow suite of what is happening 
worldwide after our bad experience with Apartheid regime's destruction in our 
lifetime. It doesnt whether is ANC government in power, it's our government. 
When crisis erupts, African people will have no option but to stand up in great 
numbers and join the revolutionary camp as they did to Apartheid, just like in 
Eastern Ukraine.  What happened in Palstine, Syria, Ukraine, Iraq and Libya 
will be like a picnic compared to SA crisis. Spontaniety of the masses in 
marakana, SANDF strike, services delivery protests, etc sent clear signals to 
all serious-minded leaders. Associated militancy says it all. Killing PAC will 
not stop the revolution path SA must take. 

SA government must also be clear where it stands in international politics,  
either with or against US-led imperialism. Stop being dubious! Fence-sitters 
are always on the line of cross fire. Third World War is on the cards under 
current developments in the world. Remember: when two elephants fight (US  
Russia), it is the grass that suffers most. 

Izwe Lethu!   

When

 --
Sent from my Nokia phone

--Original message--
From: 'gift fuzane' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress payco@googlegroups.com
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 14, 2014 1:21:17 PM GMT+0100
Subject: [PAYCO] coup is the only solution for PAC


This daily dialogues PAC members are busy with is not working. If my mind serve 
me well, this have been going on since from 80's. PAC is full of agents. Infact 
should I rather say PAC is an agent organization. Every leaders elected turns 
to work against the organization. 

Conference seems to fail in electing leaders cause these agents leaders are 
sponsored. The only solution to this problem we are facing is a coup. We retake 
PAC from people that thinks they own it. Appoint leaders that we think can 
unite the organization. We give them plan of action. Any one that is against 
our actions or takes us to courts will b assassinated. In order for us to fix 
PAC we need to take radical actions, period. 

Let us fix the organization once and for all.

United PAC
Zandisile aka Gift Fuzane 

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RE: [PAYCO] Our generation failed by a generation that has made its mark!

2014-09-15 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
. (Leadership of the party is kept away by those of the generation that 
has made its mark).
3. Our generation stands to go down in history as the most useless generation 
that never made a mark in the struggle to liberate our people.

We concluded that we will not allow this to continue. We want to play our 
historic duty in the liberation struggle of our people and continent. We will 
do this within the PAC but if PAC cannot assist us to do so we will go out and 
make our mark elsewhere.

We are driven by a desire to make our mark in history.

Izwe lethu!

Linda Kwame Ndebele

Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!

  _  

From: Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com 

Sender: payco@googlegroups.com 

Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 08:05:02 +0200

To: 'Michael Muendane'm...@soultalk.co.za; 'Mbulelo 
Raymond'mrfihl...@gmail.com

ReplyTo: payco@googlegroups.com 

Cc: po...@yahoo.com; tyamza...@yahoo.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; 
jntab...@gmail.com; paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; 
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; znyam...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; 
i...@bataufc.com; moshemahlom...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; 
bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; digashuma...@gmail.com; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; monyanepin...@gmail.com; ad...@pac.org.za; 
ndhlo...@pac.org.za; dud...@webmail.co.za; lea...@hotmail.com; 
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; richardma...@yahoo.com; 
ntsiemohl...@gmail.com; mnd...@yahoo.com; mop...@pac.org.za; 
mvakalijust...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; tnta...@webmail.co.za; 
aplamv...@gmail.com; njabulo.m...@gmail.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net; 
pasmapresid...@gmail.com; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; 
billiard.s...@gmail.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; 
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; 
isaa...@diplomat-global.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; vemahla...@gmail.com; 
0825164...@vodamail.co.za; nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; 
lucasmmol...@gmail.com; payco@googlegroups.com; 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 
pacaza...@webmail.co.za; pac.nc...@gmail.com; pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; 
hlubi.so...@gmail.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mbuyigan...@yahoo.com; 
dumisani...@gmail.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; nnyq...@gmail.com; 
s...@pac.org.za; sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; wgaj...@gmail.com; 
mapulankoan...@gmail.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za; mbind...@gmail.com; 
mphah...@eskom.co.za

Subject: RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 

Izwe lethu 

 

Thanks Bra Mike, “Anyone can change. Love yourself, love one another, unite and 
you shall be a strong Party”

 

Izwe lethu

Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi

I Choose no-one, however all PAC members as comrades in struggle for the 
African Emancipation!

 

From: Michael Muendane [mailto:m...@soultalk.co.za] 
Sent: 11 September 2014 10:13 PM
To: 'Mbulelo Raymond'; 'Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi'
Cc: po...@yahoo.com; tyamza...@yahoo.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; jntab...@gmail.com; 
paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; 
znyam...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; i...@bataufc.com; 
moshemahlom...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; 
digashuma...@gmail.com; phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; monyanepin...@gmail.com; 
ad...@pac.org.za; ndhlo...@pac.org.za; dud...@webmail.co.za; 
lea...@hotmail.com; malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; 
richardma...@yahoo.com; ntsiemohl...@gmail.com; mnd...@yahoo.com; 
mop...@pac.org.za; mvakalijust...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; 
tnta...@webmail.co.za; aplamv...@gmail.com; njabulo.m...@gmail.com; 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; 
billiard.s...@gmail.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; 
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; 
isaa...@diplomat-global.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; vemahla...@gmail.com; 
0825164...@vodamail.co.za; nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; lucasmmol...@gmail.com; 
payco@googlegroups.com; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 
pacaza...@webmail.co.za; pac.nc...@gmail.com; pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; 
hlubi.so...@gmail.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mbuyigan...@yahoo.com; 
dumisani...@gmail.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; nnyq...@gmail.com; s...@pac.org.za; 
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; wgaj...@gmail.com; mapulankoan...@gmail.com; 
mokoen...@workmail.co.za; mbind...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za
Subject: RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 

There is one stubborn truth that most people do not realise and it is this:

 

“You cannot give anybody something that you do not have. You must have it 
first. If you do not have love, you can never give love to anybody. Likewise, 
when you give a positive a label ( description or attribute) to someone else, 
it means you also possess that attribute. When you attribute or ascribe a 
certain negative trait, attribute

Re: [PAYCO] coup is the only solution for PAC

2014-09-14 Thread chargein461
Comrade Gift

My first input on this discussion was that to rescue PAC from current maximum 
infiltration is to take extraordinary actions unfortunately at a human cost. I 
agree with you totally in your sentiments. PAC has been hijacked from us at gun 
point. We cannot get it back to us without a bitter fight. 

 --
Sent from my Nokia phone

--Original message--
From: 'gift fuzane' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress payco@googlegroups.com
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 14, 2014 1:21:17 PM GMT+0100
Subject: [PAYCO] coup is the only solution for PAC


This daily dialogues PAC members are busy with is not working. If my mind serve 
me well, this have been going on since from 80's. PAC is full of agents. Infact 
should I rather say PAC is an agent organization. Every leaders elected turns 
to work against the organization. 

Conference seems to fail in electing leaders cause these agents leaders are 
sponsored. The only solution to this problem we are facing is a coup. We retake 
PAC from people that thinks they own it. Appoint leaders that we think can 
unite the organization. We give them plan of action. Any one that is against 
our actions or takes us to courts will b assassinated. In order for us to fix 
PAC we need to take radical actions, period. 

Let us fix the organization once and for all.

United PAC
Zandisile aka Gift Fuzane 

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Re: [PAYCO] coup is the only solution for PAC

2014-09-14 Thread chargein461
The enemy is prepared even to bomb genuine PAC members who will win the fight 
at the end group with Hamas, Zanu-PF, ISIS, etc. Nato may here already to deal 
with genuine PAC members. But, the kind of action 

 --
Sent from my Nokia phone

--Original message--
From: 'gift fuzane' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress payco@googlegroups.com
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 14, 2014 1:21:17 PM GMT+0100
Subject: [PAYCO] coup is the only solution for PAC


This daily dialogues PAC members are busy with is not working. If my mind serve 
me well, this have been going on since from 80's. PAC is full of agents. Infact 
should I rather say PAC is an agent organization. Every leaders elected turns 
to work against the organization. 

Conference seems to fail in electing leaders cause these agents leaders are 
sponsored. The only solution to this problem we are facing is a coup. We retake 
PAC from people that thinks they own it. Appoint leaders that we think can 
unite the organization. We give them plan of action. Any one that is against 
our actions or takes us to courts will b assassinated. In order for us to fix 
PAC we need to take radical actions, period. 

Let us fix the organization once and for all.

United PAC
Zandisile aka Gift Fuzane 

-- 
-- 
Sending your posting to payco@googlegroups.com

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RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-12 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Izwe lethu 

 

Thanks Bra Mike, “Anyone can change. Love yourself, love one another, unite and 
you shall be a strong Party”

 

Izwe lethu

Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi

I Choose no-one, however all PAC members as comrades in struggle for the 
African Emancipation!

 

From: Michael Muendane [mailto:m...@soultalk.co.za] 
Sent: 11 September 2014 10:13 PM
To: 'Mbulelo Raymond'; 'Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi'
Cc: po...@yahoo.com; tyamza...@yahoo.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; jntab...@gmail.com; 
paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; 
znyam...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; i...@bataufc.com; 
moshemahlom...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; 
digashuma...@gmail.com; phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; monyanepin...@gmail.com; 
ad...@pac.org.za; ndhlo...@pac.org.za; dud...@webmail.co.za; 
lea...@hotmail.com; malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; 
richardma...@yahoo.com; ntsiemohl...@gmail.com; mnd...@yahoo.com; 
mop...@pac.org.za; mvakalijust...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; 
tnta...@webmail.co.za; aplamv...@gmail.com; njabulo.m...@gmail.com; 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; 
billiard.s...@gmail.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; 
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; 
isaa...@diplomat-global.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; vemahla...@gmail.com; 
0825164...@vodamail.co.za; nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; lucasmmol...@gmail.com; 
payco@googlegroups.com; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 
pacaza...@webmail.co.za; pac.nc...@gmail.com; pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; 
hlubi.so...@gmail.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mbuyigan...@yahoo.com; 
dumisani...@gmail.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; nnyq...@gmail.com; s...@pac.org.za; 
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; wgaj...@gmail.com; mapulankoan...@gmail.com; 
mokoen...@workmail.co.za; mbind...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za
Subject: RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 

There is one stubborn truth that most people do not realise and it is this:

 

“You cannot give anybody something that you do not have. You must have it 
first. If you do not have love, you can never give love to anybody. Likewise, 
when you give a positive a label ( description or attribute) to someone else, 
it means you also possess that attribute. When you attribute or ascribe a 
certain negative trait, attribute, quality or tendency to another person, you 
do that because you possess that trait, attribute, quality or tendency 
yourself, otherwise how would you recognise it in others?”

 

Anyone can change. Love yourself, love one another, unite and you shall be a 
strong Party.

 

Izwe lethu.

 

 

Ngila Muendane.

 

From: Mbulelo Raymond [mailto:mrfihl...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 8:15 PM
To: Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Cc: po...@yahoo.com; tyamza...@yahoo.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; jntab...@gmail.com; 
m...@soultalk.co.za; paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; 
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; znyam...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; 
i...@bataufc.com; moshemahlom...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; 
bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; digashuma...@gmail.com; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; monyanepin...@gmail.com; ad...@pac.org.za; 
ndhlo...@pac.org.za; dud...@webmail.co.za; lea...@hotmail.com; 
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; richardma...@yahoo.com; 
ntsiemohl...@gmail.com; mnd...@yahoo.com; mop...@pac.org.za; 
mvakalijust...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; tnta...@webmail.co.za; 
aplamv...@gmail.com; njabulo.m...@gmail.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net; 
pasmapresid...@gmail.com; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; billiard.s...@gmail.com; 
linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; kutie.thondl...@gmail.com; 
pacmogalec...@gmail.com; isaa...@diplomat-global.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; 
vemahla...@gmail.com; 0825164...@vodamail.co.za; nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; 
lucasmmol...@gmail.com; payco@googlegroups.com; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; 
sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; hlubi.so...@gmail.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com; 
mbuyigan...@yahoo.com; dumisani...@gmail.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
nnyq...@gmail.com; s...@pac.org.za; sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; wgaj...@gmail.com; 
mapulankoan...@gmail.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za; mbind...@gmail.com; 
mphah...@eskom.co.za
Subject: RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 

M'Afrika Nkrumah please poqo I am begging you, let us leave this matter because 
it adds no value to the future of the PAC. 

FIHLA

On 11 Sep 2014 6:59 PM, Nkrumah Raymond KGAGUDI nrkgag...@gmail.com wrote:

Conrade Fihla

You are deliberately distorting everything I wrote and argued. It is evident 
you are personalising issues and also driving a character assasination. You 
have dismally failed to prove your claims that I did

RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-11 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Shango lashu M’Afrika 

 

PAC branches and members should not harbour any illusions, Birchwood 2013 
National Conference organised by the same NEC comrades organising the 
Bloemfontein 2014 National Conference, has dismally failed to unite PAC and 
place all PAC branches and members on a unity-and-revolutionary path. Birchwood 
2013 National Conference has deepened divisions and sowed conflict among PAC 
members and branches in a manner never seen in the history of the PAC, 
Bloemfontein 2014 National Conference will continue to consolidate a highly 
divided PAC with an untenable organisational state. 

 

Boycott and denounce Bloemfontein 2014 National Conference! 

Boycott!

 

Unite and Defeat factionalism PAC branches and members!

Unite!

 

Forward to an Inclusive and Uniting PAC Conference!

Forward 

 

Borrowing the comments made by former Chairman John Nyathi Pokela for all of us 
PAC Branches and members to reflect and ponder from Cde Muendane and Cde Ndima, 
PAC Chairman John Nyathi Pokela when he said One of the greatest leaders of 
this organisation, Nyathi Pokela, is on record as having said that if we go to 
a conference divided, we shall come out of it even more divided. To defeat 
factionalism and divisions, It is my strongest believe that PAC branches and 
members must achieve principled unity. 

 

And those former PAC members who left PAC to form PAM must return to the PAC, 
those PAC members who were suspended should also return to the PAC; We must 
jointly and equally wage the struggle to reclaim-and –to- place PAC on a 
revolutionary socialist path on a Pan African Scope to overthrow capitalism and 
white supremacy.

 

Shango lashu

Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi

074 922 6361

From: Mbuyiselo Kantso [mailto:mbuyigan...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: 10 September 2014 03:28 PM
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Cc: Ndade Mxunya; Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi; Kutie Thondlana; 
sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; mrfihla08; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; Admin @ 
Pac; wgaj...@gmail.com; eddie mfulwane; richardma...@yahoo.com; 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; Xola Tyamzashe; 
tnta...@webmail.co.za; isaa...@diplomat-global.com; i...@bataufc.com; 
lea...@hotmail.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
Phumzile Nomnga; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; Sbusiso Xaba; 
dud...@webmail.co.za; digashuma...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; 
goqwana.san...@gmail.com; hlubi.so...@gmail.com; joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; 
jntab...@gmail.com; L Lekgwathi; lucasmmol...@gmail.com; znyam...@gmail.com; 
billiard.s...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; 
bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; ndhlo...@pac.org.za; Nakaphala Bauba; 
nnyq...@gmail.com; m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com; justice 
mvakali; mbind...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za; malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; 
mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za; moshemahlom...@gmail.com; 
monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za; po...@yahoo.com; 
celenjabulo...@gmail.com; njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; 
dumisani...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 

Cde. Ndima

 

You are spot except that you need to mention that Cde. Ndade and others had a 
task team which was working with the head office to prepare the regional. They 
handed their audited report the late Cde Wandi and Joko indicating the status 
of the branches. The people who actually presided over that conference were 
Cde, Bennet Joko, Wandi and Tebogo Rakoma. They lost in a congress organised by 
them(Ndade and Company), Moloto, Joko and Wandi after Cdes Abel, Busang and Apa 
warned the SG that in the Vaal is as easy he may think. 

 

Since that time Cde. Narius in particular never liked us and hence after he 
instructed us that we should go on a joint commemoration for Sharpeville Day it 
surprisingly became our thing. It was after that incident that I gave up on him 
and at least I told him. I was never in my life felt so betrayed by a leader at 
the level of an SG.

 

 

On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 12:36 PM, Tongogara Ndima 
ndimatongog...@gmail.com wrote:

 

Comrade Ndade

 

Your gripe is about councillor's seat hence you formed a parallel REC hoping to 
topple the other REC and find a way to become a councillor! We know, and ou 
have raised this several times in Sharpeville that Narius Moloto has being 
lobbying you and making offers. If Sedibeng Region had more councillor's seats, 
there would'not be parallel RECs in Vaal as it is the case today. Cde Ndade, 
for once be honest with us, you lost the regional leadership contest in a 
constitutional congress officiated by Cde Moloto and Cde Joko. But for group - 
factional interest you exploited divisions within the NEC, namely the 
Letlapa-Moloto conflcit by siding

Re: [PAYCO] Re: d: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference

2014-09-11 Thread 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
Cde Ndima
 
If you remember in the early 90's we used to have the speeches of Chairman 
Pokela at United Nations and I have never come across some of his written 
outside that platform. Thanks for sharing some of these profound logical 
conclusion. He was right Chairman Pokela. In 1996 I was at the annual 
conference in Bloemfontein and it quickly descended into some scale chaos. The 
then gifted Gora Ebrahim made some very extra ordinary opening remarks and I 
realised then it does not matter how good and extra ordinary you maybe when 
people have chosen a certain path as their way of seeing through they stick to 
it no matter the consequences. 
 
It is out of no life and political experience that people entertain divisive 
platforms or conferences. 
 
  


On Thursday, September 11, 2014 7:33 AM, Tongogara Ndima 
ndimatongog...@gmail.com wrote:
  


Izwe lethu Moaforika Xaba

And second question, why do not you start putting your
efforts to unite PAC branches and members in Gauteng first!  

PAC Chairman John Nyathi Pokela when he said One of the greatest
leaders of this organisation, Nyathi Pokela, is on record as having said that
if we go to a conference divided, we shall come out of it even more divided. 
And what's your thought and advice to us on this issue?

Ndima


On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 7:04 PM, Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com wrote:

I am not a spokesperson of Moloto NEC Grouping. I am not familiar with 
composition of Moloto NEC Grouping. So I am not privy to the information that 
you are seeking from me. 
One thing I know is that my obsessions (the decree) cannot stay in the books 
of the PAC; with all its Secucratic tendencies that only magnify centralism in 
the concept of Democratic Centralism. Democratic Centralism remains the best 
sponsorship model for a revolutionary party; which is fueled by ideas. It is 
effective in screening ideas. It can never be associated with dictatorship and 
individualism fueled by personal cults manifesting themselves in the Party. 
What I know is that I lobby for strengthening of internal democracy (not 
limited to merely voting) and the creation of mechanism to search for true 
desires of the Party members.  
If that succeed in next conference then superb. If our views do not win the 
day; we will be back in the next conference with a refined argument.  
I hope we will then move to the issues (ideas) instead of sticking to this 
personality issues like the Moloto NEC Groupings or Dlamini NEC Groups etc. 
Izwe lethu;
On Sep 10, 2014 12:25 PM, Tongogara Ndima ndimatongog...@gmail.com wrote:

Comrade Xaba


We request that, may you then share with us, how will the 2014 Moloto NEC 
Grouping Bloemfontein Conference resolves the infighting and parallel 
structures in the PAC? Because the 2013 Birchwood National Conference has 
totally failed to unite and start with party re-building programme!


And second question, why do not you start putting your efforts to unite PAC 
branches and members in Gauteng first! Cde Muendane used the words of PAC 
Chairman John Nyathi Pokela when he said One of the greatest
leaders of this organisation, Nyathi Pokela, is on record as having said that
if we go to a conference divided, we shall come out of it even more divided.


As soon as Ama-Aforika receive your reply, then I believe they will repsonce 
to your views to persuade you and Tshwane Branches.


Izwe lethu!
Sdima



On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 6:22 PM, Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com wrote:

Nothing has blinded me, including what you call my presidential ambition.  
I am still going (if delegated) or will be represented by my branch delegate 
to the Annual National Conference called by NEC. We will not be prevented by 
any decree. Those that think that we must not attend Annual Conference, 
should make the effort and convince us.  
We are going to conference not blinded but extremely clear about our 
recommendations to conference. We hope to persuade and convince other 
branches on the removal of the decree, transparency in decision making, 
clarity in roles and on public officers.  
Regards,  
Sbusiso Xaba 
On Sep 9, 2014 9:09 AM, Tongogara Ndima ndimatongog...@gmail.com wrote:

Comrade Xaba


We have not seen any form of you being harassed, I ask you is basic and 
straight forward question. Your Presidential ambitions has blurred your 
judgement, nonetheless good luck!


Regards
Ndima
  


On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com wrote:

It is nice to hide behind high emotional  loaded language. Especially, when 
wanting to blackmail or intimidate. I will entertain neither emotional 
blackmail nor attempted intimidation. We are not much interested in 
personality cults either.  
Where are these many branches, You're talking about, Ndima? Branches that 
only told you? Why those branches have not attempted to persuade Tshwane 
and branches in Tshwane (no matter the number )? Engage us structural. 
those who have engage us found us 

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-11 Thread mphirim

Good Morning M'Afrika Mashilo 

Clearly you have made your decision to Boycott the conference so you are within 
your Rights to do so as much as you are entitled to your opinion. 

Please let's respect decision of those who are prepared to make efforts to re - 
build the PAC. We all agree that the PAC must Unite and come with a programme 
that will change the Status Quo and challenge the System on Pan Africanist 
perspective.

I am not sure if your Branch or you as an individual is in good standing or is 
the one that you refer to when you make a mention of Unity of those who left 
PAC and those of PAM which you seem passionate about. PAM is a registered 
Political Party and is a Legal Persona and should not be a determining Factor 
when we are suppose to hold a Conference to redirect the PAC, as we move and 
on, we will differ on methods of how to take the PAC forward. Those who left 
PAC did so Voluntarily and I know a few that are back in the PAC and are active.

Comrade Ray I am personally not pleased with your BOYCOTT CONFERENCE Campaign, 
it is growing tension and promote dis unity. You are contradicting yourself by 
condemning those who differ with you, failing to convince them does not 
necessarily mean you have to use knuckle dusters Boycott Conference. 

We are continuing Son of Soil with or without those who differ with us.
Caucus 13/09/14 then Conference in Bloemfontein 27-28/09/14. 

IAfrika 

 
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

-Original Message-
From: Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 08:25:52 
To: 'Mbuyiselo Kantso'mbuyigan...@yahoo.com; payco@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Cc: 'Ndade Mxunya'mnd...@yahoo.com; 'Kutie 
Thondlana'kutie.thondl...@gmail.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 
'mrfihla08'mrfihl...@gmail.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; 'Admin @ 
Pac'ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; 'eddie 
mfulwane'rammymfulw...@gmail.com; richardma...@yahoo.com; 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; 'Xola 
Tyamzashe'tyamza...@yahoo.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za; 
isaa...@diplomat-global.com; i...@bataufc.com; lea...@hotmail.com; 
phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
'Phumzile Nomnga'phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; 
s...@pac.org.za; 'Sbusiso Xaba'sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; 
dud...@webmail.co.za; digashuma...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; 
goqwana.san...@gmail.com; hlubi.so...@gmail.com; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com; 'L 
Lekgwathi'0825164...@vodamail.co.za; lucasmmol...@gmail.com; 
znyam...@gmail.com; billiard.s...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; 
bennet_j...@yahoo.com; bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; ndhlo...@pac.org.za; 
'Nakaphala Bauba'nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; nnyq...@gmail.com; 
m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com; 'justice 
mvakali'mvakalijust...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; 
mphah...@eskom.co.za; malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com; 
mokoen...@workmail.co.za; moshemahlom...@gmail.com; 
monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za; po...@yahoo.com; 
celenjabulo...@gmail.com; njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; 
dumisani...@gmail.com
Subject: RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

Shango lashu M’Afrika 

 

PAC branches and members should not harbour any illusions, Birchwood 2013 
National Conference organised by the same NEC comrades organising the 
Bloemfontein 2014 National Conference, has dismally failed to unite PAC and 
place all PAC branches and members on a unity-and-revolutionary path. Birchwood 
2013 National Conference has deepened divisions and sowed conflict among PAC 
members and branches in a manner never seen in the history of the PAC, 
Bloemfontein 2014 National Conference will continue to consolidate a highly 
divided PAC with an untenable organisational state. 

 

Boycott and denounce Bloemfontein 2014 National Conference! 

Boycott!

 

Unite and Defeat factionalism PAC branches and members!

Unite!

 

Forward to an Inclusive and Uniting PAC Conference!

Forward 

 

Borrowing the comments made by former Chairman John Nyathi Pokela for all of us 
PAC Branches and members to reflect and ponder from Cde Muendane and Cde Ndima, 
PAC Chairman John Nyathi Pokela when he said One of the greatest leaders of 
this organisation, Nyathi Pokela, is on record as having said that if we go to 
a conference divided, we shall come out of it even more divided. To defeat 
factionalism and divisions, It is my strongest believe that PAC branches and 
members must achieve principled unity. 

 

And those former PAC members who left PAC to form PAM must return to the PAC, 
those PAC members who were suspended should also return to the PAC; We must 
jointly and equally wage the struggle

RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-11 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
...@gmail.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; mop...@pac.org.za; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; 
s...@pac.org.za; moshemahlom...@gmail.com; digashuma...@gmail.com; 
vu...@telkomsa.net; mphothobej...@yahoo.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 
0825164...@vodamail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; 
linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; 
paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; pac.nc...@gmail.com; ndhlo...@pac.org.za; 
isaa...@diplomat-global.com; njabulo.m...@gmail.com; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; river.mla...@telkomsa.net; hlubi.so...@gmail.com; 
mokoen...@workmail.co.za; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; 'APLAMVA WESTERN CAPE'; 
ntsiemohl...@gmail.com; 'Vusi Mahlangu'
Subject: RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 

M'Afrika Nkrumah, with due respect son of the soil, I would not like us to 
engage in rhetoric. All I was responding to are your unfounded sweeping 
statements based on conjecture. You know nothing or very little about what is 
happening concerning our comrades in prison. Hence I am inviting you to join me 
at your earliest convince on a visit to Boksburg prison.To quote what you 
wrote,  we have imprisoned former APLA combatants,  no action is taken to 
demand the release of incarcerated APLA combatants. You go even further to say 
 None of the two existing APLAMVA NEC s have been seen in action demanding the 
immediate  release of these comrades. But today, APLAMVA NEC comrades have a 
moral ground to point finger and identify failures of the PAC NEC members. I 
find the extent of most comrades as being hypocrits.

 

I am not sure what it is that I am misunderstanding in this sweeping and 
judgemental statement. What you are actually saying here is that you are the 
only one who has a high moral ground to point a finger at the wrongs of the NEC 
members. To you, the rest of us  except yourself are hypocrites and therefore 
have no right to participate in debates about PAC issues. You unfortunately 
when you have not visited any of these comrades in prison and you instead want 
to use their plight for political point scoring. My advice to you son of the 
soil is that instead of wright ing about the comrades in prison, please visit 
them, please go there and support them.

 

For your information, I will as I am always doing, be visiting the comrades in 
Boksburg prison this weekend. 

 

Accept my regards

 

Fihla

 

 

 

 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.



 Original message 
From: Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi 
Date:10/09/2014 10:41 (GMT+02:00) 
To: 'Mbulelo Raymond' , payco@googlegroups.com 
Cc: nnyq...@gmail.com, kutie.thondl...@gmail.com, i...@bataufc.com, 
mvakalijust...@gmail.com, wgaj...@gmail.com, malingeplaat...@yahoo.com, 
mphah...@eskom.co.za, tnta...@webmail.co.za, dud...@webmail.co.za, 
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za, nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com, 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com, ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za, mbuyigan...@yahoo.com, 
znyam...@gmail.com, mnd...@yahoo.com, celenjabulo...@gmail.com, 
payco@googlegroups.com, p...@vodamail.co.za, bulanng...@gmail.com, 
m...@soultalk.co.za, monyanepin...@gmail.com, ad...@pac.org.za, 
lucasmmol...@gmail.com, lea...@hotmail.com, pacmogalec...@gmail.com, 
po...@yahoo.com, bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com, mbind...@gmail.com, 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com, dmalo...@klerksdorp.org, mapulankoan...@gmail.com, 
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com, dumisani...@gmail.com, goqwana.san...@gmail.com, 
richardma...@yahoo.com, billiard.s...@gmail.com, jntab...@gmail.com, 
phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com, joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com, mop...@pac.org.za, 
pasmapresid...@gmail.com, s...@pac.org.za, moshemahlom...@gmail.com, 
digashuma...@gmail.com, vu...@telkomsa.net, mphothobej...@yahoo.com, 
sndam...@pac-cape.org.za, 0825164...@vodamail.co.za, tyamza...@yahoo.com, 
rammymfulw...@gmail.com, linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za, bennet_j...@yahoo.com, 
paccapeme...@webmail.co.za, pac.nc...@gmail.com, ndhlo...@pac.org.za, 
isaa...@diplomat-global.com, njabulo.m...@gmail.com, 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za, river.mla...@telkomsa.net, hlubi.so...@gmail.com, 
mokoen...@workmail.co.za, pacaza...@webmail.co.za, 'APLAMVA WESTERN CAPE' , 
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com, sndam...@pac-cape.org.za, mrfihl...@gmail.com, 
linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za, ad...@pac.org.za, wgaj...@gmail.com, 
rammymfulw...@gmail.com, richardma...@yahoo.com, river.mla...@telkomsa.net, 
ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za, takalaniligeg...@gmail.com, 
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za, tyamza...@yahoo.com, tnta...@webmail.co.za, 
isaa...@diplomat-global.com, i...@bataufc.com, lea...@hotmail.com, 
phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com, p...@vodamail.co.za, paccapeme...@webmail.co.za, 
pasmapresid...@gmail.com, pactshwanereg...@gmail.com, pacmogalec...@gmail.com, 
pac.nc...@gmail.com, phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za, pacaza...@webmail.co.za, 
s...@pac.org.za, sbusiso.x...@gmail.com, dud...@webmail.co.za, 
digashuma...@gmail.com, dmalo...@klerksdorp.org, goqwana.san...@gmail.com, 
hlubi.so...@gmail.com, joseph.maqhek

RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-11 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Comrade Masoga

 

Do not personalise the issues raised by attack me in person address issues 
raised directly. If there is justification to attend Bloemfontein September 
National Conference constructively share with us and persuade to attend! We 
have presented a political case that drawing from Birchwood and other events 
that instead of unity of PAC, we have seen Birchwood 2013 Conference deepening 
divisions and the high rate of disintegration of PAC! Hence, any parallel 
structure organising parallel events solidifies internal party  feuding, 
factionalism therefore disintegration of the PAC. 

 

First aspect I am a paid up PAC member belonging to a branch; 

Secondly aspect, This is an open campaign against events which aims to further 
divisions and the disintegration of the PAC, like Birchwood 2013 Conference; 

Thirdly aspect, we must seek to re-mobilise all PAC members and branches under 
one roof, if former PAC comrades who formed PAM agree to return to PAC and form 
part of the process to rebuild and re-organise PAC, why should they be excluded?

Fourth aspect, the Boycott the Bloemfontein Conference aims at defeating 
factionalism and mobilise PAC branches and members to an inclusive unifying 
national conference of PAC;

Fifth aspect, I have not condemn any comrades who advocates any differing view, 
if there is please specify his/her name!  

Sixth aspect, We encourage and mobilise PAC branches and members to start 
unification process by organising inclusive regional and provincial meetings to 
defeat factionalism and disunity!

 

Shango lashu

Nkrumah

 

 

From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
mphi...@gmail.com
Sent: 11 September 2014 11:12 AM
To: payco@googlegroups.com; 'Mbuyiselo Kantso'
Cc: 'Ndade Mxunya'; 'Kutie Thondlana'; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 'mrfihla08'; 
linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; 'Admin @ Pac'; wgaj...@gmail.com; 'eddie 
mfulwane'; richardma...@yahoo.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net; 
ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; 'Tumediso Modise'; 'Xola 
Tyamzashe'; tnta...@webmail.co.za; isaa...@diplomat-global.com; 
i...@bataufc.com; lea...@hotmail.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; 
p...@vodamail.co.za; Simphiwe Nofuma; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
'Phumzile Nomnga'; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; Sbusiso Xaba; 
dud...@webmail.co.za; digashuma...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; 
generalsecret...@sacwu.org.za
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 


Good Morning M'Afrika Mashilo 

Clearly you have made your decision to Boycott the conference so you are within 
your Rights to do so as much as you are entitled to your opinion. 

Please let's respect decision of those who are prepared to make efforts to re - 
build the PAC. We all agree that the PAC must Unite and come with a programme 
that will change the Status Quo and challenge the System on Pan Africanist 
perspective.

I am not sure if your Branch or you as an individual is in good standing or is 
the one that you refer to when you make a mention of Unity of those who left 
PAC and those of PAM which you seem passionate about. PAM is a registered 
Political Party and is a Legal Persona and should not be a determining Factor 
when we are suppose to hold a Conference to redirect the PAC, as we move and 
on, we will differ on methods of how to take the PAC forward. Those who left 
PAC did so Voluntarily and I know a few that are back in the PAC and are active.

Comrade Ray I am personally not pleased with your BOYCOTT CONFERENCE Campaign, 
it is growing tension and promote dis unity. You are contradicting yourself by 
condemning those who differ with you, failing to convince them does not 
necessarily mean you have to use knuckle dusters Boycott Conference. 

We are continuing Son of Soil with or without those who differ with us.
Caucus 13/09/14 then Conference in Bloemfontein 27-28/09/14. 

IAfrika 

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

  _  

From: Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com 

Sender: payco@googlegroups.com 

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 08:25:52 +0200

To: 'Mbuyiselo Kantso'mbuyigan...@yahoo.com; payco@googlegroups.com

ReplyTo: payco@googlegroups.com 

Cc: 'Ndade Mxunya'mnd...@yahoo.com; 'Kutie 
Thondlana'kutie.thondl...@gmail.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 
'mrfihla08'mrfihl...@gmail.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; 'Admin @ 
Pac'ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; 'eddie 
mfulwane'rammymfulw...@gmail.com; richardma...@yahoo.com; 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; 'Xola 
Tyamzashe'tyamza...@yahoo.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za; 
isaa...@diplomat-global.com; i...@bataufc.com; lea...@hotmail.com; 
phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-11 Thread Tongogara Ndima
Comrade Masoga

Do not display arrogance if you are serious about unity in the PAC, the
statement you made that is We are continuing Son of Soil with or without
those who differ with us.. It is a sign of arrogance and  it further
create us and them. No-one bedevilled you when you were organising a
National Caucus, then respect other comrades views and proposals.

Izwe lethu
Ndima

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 11:12 AM, mphi...@gmail.com wrote:


 Good Morning M'Afrika Mashilo

 Clearly you have made your decision to Boycott the conference so you are
 within your Rights to do so as much as you are entitled to your opinion.

 Please let's respect decision of those who are prepared to make efforts to
 re - build the PAC. We all agree that the PAC must Unite and come with a
 programme that will change the Status Quo and challenge the System on Pan
 Africanist perspective.

 I am not sure if your Branch or you as an individual is in good standing
 or is the one that you refer to when you make a mention of Unity of those
 who left PAC and those of PAM which you seem passionate about. PAM is a
 registered Political Party and is a Legal Persona and should not be a
 determining Factor when we are suppose to hold a Conference to redirect the
 PAC, as we move and on, we will differ on methods of how to take the PAC
 forward. Those who left PAC did so Voluntarily and I know a few that are
 back in the PAC and are active.

 Comrade Ray I am personally not pleased with your BOYCOTT CONFERENCE
 Campaign, it is growing tension and promote dis unity. You are
 contradicting yourself by condemning those who differ with you, failing to
 convince them does not necessarily mean you have to use knuckle dusters
 Boycott Conference.

 We are continuing Son of Soil with or without those who differ with us.
 Caucus 13/09/14 then Conference in Bloemfontein 27-28/09/14.

 IAfrika

 Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
 --
 *From: * Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com
 *Sender: * payco@googlegroups.com
 *Date: *Thu, 11 Sep 2014 08:25:52 +0200
 *To: *'Mbuyiselo Kantso'mbuyigan...@yahoo.com; payco@googlegroups.com
 *ReplyTo: * payco@googlegroups.com
 *Cc: *'Ndade Mxunya'mnd...@yahoo.com; 'Kutie Thondlana'
 kutie.thondl...@gmail.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 'mrfihla08'
 mrfihl...@gmail.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; 'Admin @ Pac'
 ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; 'eddie mfulwane'
 rammymfulw...@gmail.com; richardma...@yahoo.com; 
 river.mla...@telkomsa.net; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; 
 takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; 'Xola Tyamzashe'
 tyamza...@yahoo.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za; 
 isaa...@diplomat-global.com; i...@bataufc.com; lea...@hotmail.com; 
 phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
 paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; 
 pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; 
 pac.nc...@gmail.com; 'Phumzile Nomnga'phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; 
 pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; 'Sbusiso Xaba'
 sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; dud...@webmail.co.za; digashuma...@gmail.com;
 dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; 
 hlubi.so...@gmail.com; joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com;
 'L Lekgwathi'0825164...@vodamail.co.za; lucasmmol...@gmail.com; 
 znyam...@gmail.com; billiard.s...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; 
 bennet_j...@yahoo.com; bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; 
 ndhlo...@pac.org.za; 'Nakaphala Bauba'nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; 
 nnyq...@gmail.com; m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com;
 'justice mvakali'mvakalijust...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; 
 mphah...@eskom.co.za; malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; 
 mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za; 
 moshemahlom...@gmail.com; monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za;
 po...@yahoo.com; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; njabulo.m...@gmail.com; 
 vu...@telkomsa.net; dumisani...@gmail.com
 *Subject: *RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 Shango lashu M’Afrika



 PAC branches and members should not harbour any illusions, *Birchwood
 2013 National Conference* organised by the same NEC comrades organising
 the *Bloemfontein 2014 National Conference*, *has dismally failed to
 unite PAC and place all PAC branches and members on a
 unity-and-revolutionary path*. Birchwood 2013 National Conference has
 deepened divisions and sowed conflict among PAC members and branches in a
 manner never seen in the history of the PAC, *Bloemfontein 2014 National
 Conference* will continue to consolidate a highly divided PAC with an
 untenable organisational state.



 Boycott and denounce *Bloemfontein 2014 National Conference! *

 *Boycott!*



 *Unite and Defeat factionalism PAC branches and members!*

 * Unite!*



 *Forward to an Inclusive and Uniting PAC Conference!*

 *Forward *



 Borrowing the comments made by former Chairman John Nyathi Pokela for all
 of us PAC Branches and members to reflect and ponder from Cde Muendane and
 Cde Ndima, PAC Chairman John Nyathi Pokela

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-10 Thread 'Mawethu Sidzamba' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
Greetings Cdes

We have to accept and realise from all our points of conviction that the same 
area of convergence will be our first victory.
Speculations and insecurities about the intentions of one or the other are 
probably our biggest obstacle.

Open palm salute!

On Tue, 9/9/14, Nkrumah Raymond KGAGUDI nrkgag...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference
 To: mbuyigan...@yahoo.com, mnd...@yahoo.com, payco@googlegroups.com
 Cc: kutie.thondl...@gmail.com, sndam...@pac-cape.org.za, mrfihl...@gmail.com, 
linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za, ad...@pac.org.za, wgaj...@gmail.com, 
rammymfulw...@gmail.com, richardma...@yahoo.com, river.mla...@telkomsa.net, 
ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za, takalaniligeg...@gmail.com, 
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za, tyamza...@yahoo.com, tnta...@webmail.co.za, 
isaa...@diplomat-global.com, i...@bataufc.com, lea...@hotmail.com, 
phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com, p...@vodamail.co.za, paccapeme...@webmail.co.za, 
pasmapresid...@gmail.com, pactshwanereg...@gmail.com, pacmogalec...@gmail.com, 
pac.nc...@gmail.com, phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za, pacaza...@webmail.co.za, 
s...@pac.org.za, sbusiso.x...@gmail.com, dud...@webmail.co.za, 
digashuma...@gmail.com, dmalo...@klerksdorp.org, goqwana.san...@gmail.com, 
hlubi.so...@gmail.com, joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com, jntab...@gmail.com, 
0825164...@vodamail.co.za, lucasmmol...@gmail.com, znyam...@gmail.com, 
billiard.s...@gmail.com,
 bulanng...@gmail.com, bennet_j...@yahoo.com, bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com, 
ndhlo...@pac.org.za, nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com, nnyq...@gmail.com, 
m...@soultalk.co.za, mapulankoan...@gmail.com, mvakalijust...@gmail.com, 
mbind...@gmail.com, mphah...@eskom.co.za, malingeplaat...@yahoo.com, 
mphothobej...@yahoo.com, mokoen...@workmail.co.za, moshemahlom...@gmail.com, 
monyanepin...@gmail.com, mop...@pac.org.za, po...@yahoo.com, 
celenjabulo...@gmail.com, njabulo.m...@gmail.com, vu...@telkomsa.net, 
dumisani...@gmail.com
 Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2014, 6:34 PM
 
 Izwe lethu
 
 Once more, this debate further confirms that the September
 National Conference will not resolve the deepened level of
 feuding within the PAC, it will however worsen the situation
 and things cam be irreversible or untenable. For long in the
 PAC, PAC members and branches have being victims of two
 tongued characters!
 
 For example, PAC branches and members across all regions are
 highly divided and some are hiding their subjective
 interests using, statements such as this NEC member or that
 NEC has failed and did this or that! I strongly believe that
 in as much as Cde Letlapa, Cde Mpethi and Cde Moloto, might
 have made serious political blunders/errors, they cannot be
 made to be 100% liable for the entire divisions and feuding
 thus factionalism in the PAC. 
 
 Another example, there is a PAC PEC Member in Mpumalanga
 organising non-members to complete forms and increase
 numbers for the September National Conference, are we going
 to blame the put this corrupt activities on either Moloto
 NEC Grouping for this while exanorating and calling the very
 same Mpumalanga PEC member a comrade. 
 
 There are many examples, we can use to show that deeply, the
 PAC branches and members particularly comrades who are at
 the forefront of everything to be directly responsible and
 are hypocrites. 
 
 We have imprisoned former APLA combatants, no action is
 taken to demand the release of Incarcerated APLA combatants.
 Surely comrades, neither Cde Letlapa nor Cde Mpethi nor Cde
 Moloto is stopping your branches and members to picket and
 organise mass protests demanding the immediate release of
 all the unprisoned APLA conrades. None of the two existing
 APLAMVA NECs have been seen in action demanding tye release
 of these comrades, but today APLAMVA NEC comrades have a
 moral ground to point finger and identify failers of the PAC
 NEC Members. I find the extent of most comrades as being
 hypocrits, as shocking and also this explains the deep
 seated problems we are facing in the PAC. All PECs and RECs
 including all component structures are docile, dormant and
 moribound, relatively excluding PASMA with a serious
 qualification! 
 
 There are and has been so many caucases ever since 2007/8 to
 date, but every caucuse have yielded no tangible results but
 the situation has worsened because the current crop of some
 PAC members and those with leadeship ambitions are highly
 unprincipled and determined to break any law just to secure
 positions be they at the REC, PEC and NEC. 
 
 PAC Branches and members have abondaned principles and the
 correct political line as enshrined in the 1959 Pan
 Africanist Manifesto including all Basic Documents. A lot in
 the party is from branch level to members to national
 leadership is totally wrong and rotten! Gone are the
 principles in the PAC, as others argue to justify their
 conduct they claim that people do eat principles.
 
  First task should be PAC

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-10 Thread Linda Ndebele
Comrades,

Can we elavate the level of discourse to focus on broader party building issues 
as opposed to narrow individual interests, personalities and factional 
positions.

To a certain extent you reach a point of embarrassment when you follow the line 
of debate. Its even worse when its done by seasoned party cadres whom we have 
utmost respect and expect nothing other than guidance and decisive leadership.

I humbly request cadres.

Izwe lethu!

Linda Ndebele
Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!

-Original Message-
From: 'Mawethu Sidzamba' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress 
payco@googlegroups.com
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 22:59:52 
To: mbuyigan...@yahoo.com; mnd...@yahoo.com; payco@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Cc: kutie.thondl...@gmail.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 
mrfihl...@gmail.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; ad...@pac.org.za; 
wgaj...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; richardma...@yahoo.com; 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; 
tyamza...@yahoo.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za; isaa...@diplomat-global.com; 
i...@bataufc.com; lea...@hotmail.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; 
p...@vodamail.co.za; paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; 
pasmapresid...@gmail.com; pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; 
pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; 
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; dud...@webmail.co.za; digashuma...@gmail.com; 
dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; hlubi.so...@gmail.com; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com; 
0825164...@vodamail.co.za; lucasmmol...@gmail.com; znyam...@gmail.com; 
billiard.s...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; 
bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; ndhlo...@pac.org.za; 
nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; nnyq...@gmail.com; m...@soultalk.co.za; 
mapulankoan...@gmail.com; mvakalijust...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; 
mphah...@eskom.co.za; malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com; 
mokoen...@workmail.co.za; moshemahlom...@gmail.com; 
monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za; po...@yahoo.com; 
celenjabulo...@gmail.com; njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; 
dumisani...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

Greetings Cdes

We have to accept and realise from all our points of conviction that the same 
area of convergence will be our first victory.
Speculations and insecurities about the intentions of one or the other are 
probably our biggest obstacle.

Open palm salute!

On Tue, 9/9/14, Nkrumah Raymond KGAGUDI nrkgag...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference
 To: mbuyigan...@yahoo.com, mnd...@yahoo.com, payco@googlegroups.com
 Cc: kutie.thondl...@gmail.com, sndam...@pac-cape.org.za, mrfihl...@gmail.com, 
linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za, ad...@pac.org.za, wgaj...@gmail.com, 
rammymfulw...@gmail.com, richardma...@yahoo.com, river.mla...@telkomsa.net, 
ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za, takalaniligeg...@gmail.com, 
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za, tyamza...@yahoo.com, tnta...@webmail.co.za, 
isaa...@diplomat-global.com, i...@bataufc.com, lea...@hotmail.com, 
phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com, p...@vodamail.co.za, paccapeme...@webmail.co.za, 
pasmapresid...@gmail.com, pactshwanereg...@gmail.com, pacmogalec...@gmail.com, 
pac.nc...@gmail.com, phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za, pacaza...@webmail.co.za, 
s...@pac.org.za, sbusiso.x...@gmail.com, dud...@webmail.co.za, 
digashuma...@gmail.com, dmalo...@klerksdorp.org, goqwana.san...@gmail.com, 
hlubi.so...@gmail.com, joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com, jntab...@gmail.com, 
0825164...@vodamail.co.za, lucasmmol...@gmail.com, znyam...@gmail.com, 
billiard.s...@gmail.com,
 bulanng...@gmail.com, bennet_j...@yahoo.com, bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com, 
ndhlo...@pac.org.za, nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com, nnyq...@gmail.com, 
m...@soultalk.co.za, mapulankoan...@gmail.com, mvakalijust...@gmail.com, 
mbind...@gmail.com, mphah...@eskom.co.za, malingeplaat...@yahoo.com, 
mphothobej...@yahoo.com, mokoen...@workmail.co.za, moshemahlom...@gmail.com, 
monyanepin...@gmail.com, mop...@pac.org.za, po...@yahoo.com, 
celenjabulo...@gmail.com, njabulo.m...@gmail.com, vu...@telkomsa.net, 
dumisani...@gmail.com
 Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2014, 6:34 PM
 
 Izwe lethu
 
 Once more, this debate further confirms that the September
 National Conference will not resolve the deepened level of
 feuding within the PAC, it will however worsen the situation
 and things cam be irreversible or untenable. For long in the
 PAC, PAC members and branches have being victims of two
 tongued characters!
 
 For example, PAC branches and members across all regions are
 highly divided and some are hiding their subjective
 interests using, statements such as this NEC member or that
 NEC has failed and did this or that! I strongly believe that
 in as much as Cde Letlapa

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-10 Thread Tongogara Ndima
 feuding and weakening of the PAC!

 This feuding which weakens the PAC must be arrested, and only an inclusive
 national conference can take the PAC towards a lasting political and
 organisational solution.

 Shango lashu

 Nkrumah
 *From:* payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com]
 *Sent:* 04 September 2014 12:42 PM
 *To:* Kutie Thondlana; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za
 *Cc:* mrfihla08; payco@googlegroups.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za;
 ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com;
 richardma...@yahoo.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net;
 ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com;
 tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za;
 isaa...@diplomat-global.com; i...@bataufc.com; lea...@hotmail.com;
 phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; paccapeme...@webmail.co.za;
 pasmapresid...@gmail.com; pactshwanereg...@gmail.com;
 pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com; phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za;
 pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; smollzo...@gmail.com;
 sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; dud...@webmail.co.za; digashuma...@gmail.com;
 dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; hlubi.so...@gmail.com;
 joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com; L Lekgwathi;
 lucasmmol...@gmail.com; znyam...@gmail.com; billiard.s...@gmail.com;
 bulanng...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com;
 ndhlo...@pac.org.za; Nakaphala Bauba; nnyq...@gmail.com;
 m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com; mvakalijust...@gmail.com;
 mbind...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za; malingeplaat...@yahoo.com;
 mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za;
 moshemahlom...@gmail.com; monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za;
 mnd...@yahoo.com; po...@yahoo.com; celenjabulo...@gmail.com;
 njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; dumisani...@gmail.com

 *Subject:* Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 Cde Kutie

 It is simple the enemies of the PAC are simply those who are using members
 for their individual purposes and to some extend in the interest of the
 people they serve out there. Let me assure you pretending there is no  need
 to have an elected NEC organising a conference and rather preferring an
 individual to do so and who think he is everything can only be accepted by
 you and others. Leaders who grew in this party and with long service should
 have known by now that whatever they trying to in May 11 last will catch up
 with them and those who thought they will benefit out of that fiasco they
 can rest a little more is to be seen.


 On Thursday, September 4, 2014 11:06 AM, Kutie Thondlana 
 kutie.thondl...@gmail.com wrote:

 MaAfrika,

 An *All Inclusive* *Consultative Conference* may just be our answer. We
 need a platform to address all the concerns mentioned in circulating emails
 and come up with a plan that will assist in rebuilding the PAC from then
 on. I'm sure our enemies operating within the party to destroy PAC are
 already celebrating success, let us not allow them that glory. We must
 prevent PAC from being made the ruling party Project.  PAC must never die!


 Izwe Lethu!
 Kutie
 On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 10:38 AM, sndam...@pac-cape.org.za wrote:
 All these years fighting  each other but there is no solution . . .
 what's wrong with us - line in Lucky Dube's song
 The solution is you comrades. . . .lets get into our structures and bring
 that change. It is expected that there will be those who will try to
 maintain the current chaos by all means. Folding arms therefore won't help,
 to complain either so only active engagement to pursue a collective
 principle will put us in a better place as an organization.

 iAfrika

 iAfrika


 On 2014-09-04 10:14, mrfihla08 wrote:

 Ma Afrika Izwe Lethu

 I note that name calling and castigation of characters has become such a
 profession in the PAC. What surprises me, is that the very individuals such
 as Narius Moloto were paraded by some of us who are so vocal today against
 him. Narius was appointed by Mphahlele as party builder and Mphahlele's
 faction was fully behind him. He was subsequently elected at the Gcuwa
 circus as Secretary General. Those who were part of the Gcuwa circus must
 therefore take the blame for anything that they are opposing in Moloto
 today.

 Now, At what point ma Afrika are we going to talk about what can unite us
 instead of all this mud slinging and divisive language? We all know that
 instead of campaigning during the past elections, we were busy promoting
 our factional interests, taking each other to court, making statements in
 the media that decampaigned the PAC, and some of us even failed to vote.
 Today however we are so good at criticising instead of collectively
 accepting blame. Some of us who are talking today were part of Mphahlele's
 faction that created divisive parallel structures and expelled some of us
 from the PAC. Please ma Afrika let us stop with this childish and
 reactionary behavior that does not take us anywhere. All

Re: [PAYCO] Re: d: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference

2014-09-10 Thread Sbusiso Xaba
I am not a spokesperson of Moloto NEC Grouping. I am not familiar with
composition of Moloto NEC Grouping. So I am not privy to the information
that you are seeking from me.

One thing I know is that my obsessions (the decree) cannot stay in the
books of the PAC; with all its Secucratic tendencies that only magnify
centralism in the concept of Democratic Centralism. Democratic Centralism
remains the best sponsorship model for a revolutionary party; which is
fueled by ideas. It is effective in screening ideas. It can never be
associated with dictatorship and individualism fueled by personal cults
manifesting themselves in the Party.

What I know is that I lobby for strengthening of internal democracy (not
limited to merely voting) and the creation of mechanism to search for true
desires of the Party members.

If that succeed in next conference then superb. If our views do not win the
day; we will be back in the next conference with a refined argument.

I hope we will then move to the issues (ideas) instead of sticking to this
personality issues like the Moloto NEC Groupings or Dlamini NEC Groups etc.

Izwe lethu;
On Sep 10, 2014 12:25 PM, Tongogara Ndima ndimatongog...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Comrade Xaba

 We request that, may you then share with us, how will the 2014 Moloto NEC
 Grouping Bloemfontein Conference resolves the infighting and parallel
 structures in the PAC? Because the 2013 Birchwood National Conference has
 totally failed to unite and start with party re-building programme!

 And second question, why do not you start putting your efforts to unite
 PAC branches and members in Gauteng first! Cde Muendane used the words of
 PAC Chairman John Nyathi Pokela when he said One of the greatest leaders
 of this organisation, Nyathi Pokela, is on record as having said that if we
 go to a conference divided, we shall come out of it even more divided.

 As soon as Ama-Aforika receive your reply, then I believe they will
 repsonce to your views to persuade you and Tshwane Branches.

 Izwe lethu!
 Sdima


 On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 6:22 PM, Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Nothing has blinded me, including what you call my presidential ambition.

 I am still going (if delegated) or will be represented by my branch
 delegate to the Annual National Conference called by NEC. We will not be
 prevented by any decree. Those that think that we must not attend Annual
 Conference, should make the effort and convince us.

 We are going to conference not blinded but extremely clear about our
 recommendations to conference. We hope to persuade and convince other
 branches on the removal of the decree, transparency in decision making,
 clarity in roles and on public officers.

 Regards,

 Sbusiso Xaba
 On Sep 9, 2014 9:09 AM, Tongogara Ndima ndimatongog...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Comrade Xaba

 We have not seen any form of you being harassed, I ask you is basic and
 straight forward question. Your Presidential ambitions has blurred your
 judgement, nonetheless good luck!

 Regards
 Ndima


 On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 It is nice to hide behind high emotional  loaded language. Especially,
 when wanting to blackmail or intimidate. I will entertain neither emotional
 blackmail nor attempted intimidation. We are not much interested in
 personality cults either.

 Where are these many branches, You're talking about, Ndima? Branches
 that only told you? Why those branches have not attempted to persuade
 Tshwane and branches in Tshwane (no matter the number )? Engage us
 structural. those who have engage us found us persuadable and persuading.

 The view of Tshwane is unwavering. On the issues that should top the
 agenda of the conference. Yes, Bloemfontein Conference and other Annual
 Conferences that would follow in coming years. We are not married to our
 proposal or recommended  solutions. We will subordinate our ideas to
 superior ideas and we expect other members and branches to do so. We are
 sure that the Party must subdue self interest to its interest.

 We are under no illusion about the state of the Party, which is not the
 new state. Same state prevailing since the sixties. We do not expect a
 perfect Annual Conferences. Nevertheless, we make our small contribution.

 I must say this in closing, Tshwane passionately hates the decree. We
 are not reasonable on the owners of the decree. Decree is our enemy. It is
 unconstitutional not only in it application but its existence. It continue
 to manifest itself as the biggest threat to the party. Therefore, we will
 never recognise it. We are moving for transparent decision making, clarity
 of roles and structure seconding members not individual (including
 individual office bearer) - this is democratic centralism not dictatorship
 labeled democratic centralism.

 Revolutionary regards,

 Sbusiso Xaba
 On Sep 8, 2014 4:52 PM, 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth
 Congress payco@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Comrade 

Re: [PAYCO] Re: d: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference

2014-09-10 Thread Tongogara Ndima
Izwe lethu Moaforika Xaba

And second question, why do not you start putting your efforts to unite PAC
branches and members in Gauteng first!


PAC Chairman John Nyathi Pokela when he said One of the greatest leaders of
this organisation, Nyathi Pokela, is on record as having said that if we go
to a conference divided, we shall come out of it even more divided. And
what's your thought and advice to us on this issue?


Ndima

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 7:04 PM, Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
wrote:

 I am not a spokesperson of Moloto NEC Grouping. I am not familiar with
 composition of Moloto NEC Grouping. So I am not privy to the information
 that you are seeking from me.

 One thing I know is that my obsessions (the decree) cannot stay in the
 books of the PAC; with all its Secucratic tendencies that only magnify
 centralism in the concept of Democratic Centralism. Democratic Centralism
 remains the best sponsorship model for a revolutionary party; which is
 fueled by ideas. It is effective in screening ideas. It can never be
 associated with dictatorship and individualism fueled by personal cults
 manifesting themselves in the Party.

 What I know is that I lobby for strengthening of internal democracy (not
 limited to merely voting) and the creation of mechanism to search for true
 desires of the Party members.

 If that succeed in next conference then superb. If our views do not win
 the day; we will be back in the next conference with a refined argument.

 I hope we will then move to the issues (ideas) instead of sticking to this
 personality issues like the Moloto NEC Groupings or Dlamini NEC Groups etc.

 Izwe lethu;
 On Sep 10, 2014 12:25 PM, Tongogara Ndima ndimatongog...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Comrade Xaba

 We request that, may you then share with us, how will the 2014 Moloto NEC
 Grouping Bloemfontein Conference resolves the infighting and parallel
 structures in the PAC? Because the 2013 Birchwood National Conference has
 totally failed to unite and start with party re-building programme!

 And second question, why do not you start putting your efforts to unite
 PAC branches and members in Gauteng first! Cde Muendane used the words of
 PAC Chairman John Nyathi Pokela when he said One of the greatest leaders
 of this organisation, Nyathi Pokela, is on record as having said that if we
 go to a conference divided, we shall come out of it even more divided.

 As soon as Ama-Aforika receive your reply, then I believe they will
 repsonce to your views to persuade you and Tshwane Branches.

 Izwe lethu!
 Sdima


 On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 6:22 PM, Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Nothing has blinded me, including what you call my presidential
 ambition.

 I am still going (if delegated) or will be represented by my branch
 delegate to the Annual National Conference called by NEC. We will not be
 prevented by any decree. Those that think that we must not attend Annual
 Conference, should make the effort and convince us.

 We are going to conference not blinded but extremely clear about our
 recommendations to conference. We hope to persuade and convince other
 branches on the removal of the decree, transparency in decision making,
 clarity in roles and on public officers.

 Regards,

 Sbusiso Xaba
 On Sep 9, 2014 9:09 AM, Tongogara Ndima ndimatongog...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Comrade Xaba

 We have not seen any form of you being harassed, I ask you is basic and
 straight forward question. Your Presidential ambitions has blurred your
 judgement, nonetheless good luck!

 Regards
 Ndima


 On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 It is nice to hide behind high emotional  loaded language. Especially,
 when wanting to blackmail or intimidate. I will entertain neither 
 emotional
 blackmail nor attempted intimidation. We are not much interested in
 personality cults either.

 Where are these many branches, You're talking about, Ndima? Branches
 that only told you? Why those branches have not attempted to persuade
 Tshwane and branches in Tshwane (no matter the number )? Engage us
 structural. those who have engage us found us persuadable and persuading.

 The view of Tshwane is unwavering. On the issues that should top the
 agenda of the conference. Yes, Bloemfontein Conference and other Annual
 Conferences that would follow in coming years. We are not married to our
 proposal or recommended  solutions. We will subordinate our ideas to
 superior ideas and we expect other members and branches to do so. We are
 sure that the Party must subdue self interest to its interest.

 We are under no illusion about the state of the Party, which is not
 the new state. Same state prevailing since the sixties. We do not expect a
 perfect Annual Conferences. Nevertheless, we make our small contribution.

 I must say this in closing, Tshwane passionately hates the decree. We
 are not reasonable on the owners of the decree. Decree is our enemy. It is
 unconstitutional not only in it 

Re: [PAYCO] Re: d: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference

2014-09-09 Thread Tongogara Ndima
Comrade Xaba

We have not seen any form of you being harassed, I ask you is basic and
straight forward question. Your Presidential ambitions has blurred your
judgement, nonetheless good luck!

Regards
Ndima


On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com wrote:

 It is nice to hide behind high emotional  loaded language. Especially,
 when wanting to blackmail or intimidate. I will entertain neither emotional
 blackmail nor attempted intimidation. We are not much interested in
 personality cults either.

 Where are these many branches, You're talking about, Ndima? Branches that
 only told you? Why those branches have not attempted to persuade Tshwane
 and branches in Tshwane (no matter the number )? Engage us structural.
 those who have engage us found us persuadable and persuading.

 The view of Tshwane is unwavering. On the issues that should top the
 agenda of the conference. Yes, Bloemfontein Conference and other Annual
 Conferences that would follow in coming years. We are not married to our
 proposal or recommended  solutions. We will subordinate our ideas to
 superior ideas and we expect other members and branches to do so. We are
 sure that the Party must subdue self interest to its interest.

 We are under no illusion about the state of the Party, which is not the
 new state. Same state prevailing since the sixties. We do not expect a
 perfect Annual Conferences. Nevertheless, we make our small contribution.

 I must say this in closing, Tshwane passionately hates the decree. We are
 not reasonable on the owners of the decree. Decree is our enemy. It is
 unconstitutional not only in it application but its existence. It continue
 to manifest itself as the biggest threat to the party. Therefore, we will
 never recognise it. We are moving for transparent decision making, clarity
 of roles and structure seconding members not individual (including
 individual office bearer) - this is democratic centralism not dictatorship
 labeled democratic centralism.

 Revolutionary regards,

 Sbusiso Xaba
 On Sep 8, 2014 4:52 PM, 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth
 Congress payco@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Comrade Ndima

 Since the unbanning of the PAC I have never come cross the PAC being in
 this pathetic state of affairs especially towards congresses. Even if there
 were differences in structures and NEC itself our congresses showed
 maturity of members and NEC towards them. Any normal human beings
 especially leading a party like PAC they will know that first you cannot
 organise a conference when there is no presidency and other elected NEC
 members attending. On the other hand the SG is an expelled member under the
 decree by his own confirmed and once regularly paraded president in the
 name of comrade Mphethi.

 On the 7th March 2014 he Narius Moloto went to court on two issues and
 that was first to ask the court to declare Mphethi as the party leader and
 Mbuyiswa Gantsu to be replaced by Narius Moloto as authorised person in the
 IEC. Today their once touted President has invoked the decree they are so
 embarrassed that he Moloto cant take it instead he fills he is above
 everyone but I understand humiliation he is going through.

 Any self-respecting branch, region or structure will never attempt to
 associate itself with such an arrangement. We as the Sedibeng/Vaal Region
 will never even entertain anything about the so called Bloemfontein
 Conference. Comrade Mlambo told us that during the launch of the two
 manifestos prior elections he sent Cde, Letlapa and Narius asking them that
 he suggest the launches must not be done separately. He said Cde Teenage
 told him that he appreciate the request but he think it came too late. Then
 he sent Cde Narius text him asking if the request was from him and when Cde
 Mlambo confirmed it was him Cde Narius just ignored him.

 But like I said it will be unfair to blame Cde Narius for all this mess
 but rather blame those who see logic and find sense in this chaos.  It is
 not surprising when you see the behaviour of other comrades because even
 when the Gauteng Provincial Conference was organised you could laugh your
 stomach  out, if you hear how things were done and how it was dismissed by
 the same people who organised it. The same comrades who are attending these
 kind of gatherings they hope they will use a crisis to emerge as leaders
 and it wont work.

 Just like the Birchwood Conference whether you are a member in good
 standing or not or a new member or a ghost all will be accepted as long
 as the people can fill the attendance register that will go in court papers
 for the November appeal. In short it will be all those who will attend such
 a conference no matter how small who will be carrying the crusade high not
 the SG. So let them close their ears and eyes and attend what is theirs and
 we continue to explore stabilising the party beyond the jamboree!

 IZWE LETHU!


   On Monday, September 8, 2014 3:02 PM, 

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-09 Thread 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
...@klerksdorp.org; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; 
hlubi.so...@gmail.com; joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com; L 
Lekgwathi; lucasmmol...@gmail.com; znyam...@gmail.com; 
billiard.s...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com;
 bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; ndhlo...@pac.org.za; Nakaphala Bauba; 
nnyq...@gmail.com; m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com; 
mvakalijust...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za; 
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za; 
moshemahlom...@gmail.com; monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za; 
mnd...@yahoo.com; po...@yahoo.com; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; 
njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; dumisani...@gmail.com 

Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference
 
Cde Kutie
  
It is simple the enemies of the PAC are simply those who are using members for 
their individual purposes and to some extend in the interest of the people 
they serve out there. Let me assure you pretending there is no  need to have 
an elected NEC organising a conference and rather preferring an individual to 
do so and who think he is everything can only be accepted by you and others. 
Leaders who grew in this party and with long service should have known by now 
that whatever they trying to in May 11 last will catch up with them and those 
who thought they will benefit out of that fiasco they can rest a little more 
is to be seen. 
 
  
On Thursday, September 4, 2014 11:06 AM, Kutie Thondlana 
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com wrote: 
 
MaAfrika,
  
An All Inclusive Consultative Conference may just be our answer. We need a 
platform to address all the concerns mentioned in circulating emails and come 
up with a plan that will assist in rebuilding the PAC from then on. I'm sure 
our enemies operating within the party to destroy PAC are already celebrating 
success, let us not allow them that glory. We must prevent PAC from being made 
the ruling party Project.  PAC must never die! 
 
 
Izwe Lethu! 
Kutie
On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 10:38 AM, sndam...@pac-cape.org.za wrote: 
All these years fighting  each other but there is no solution . . . what's 
wrong with us - line in Lucky Dube's song 
The solution is you comrades. . . .lets get into our structures and bring that 
change. It is expected that there will be those who will try to maintain the 
current chaos by all means. Folding arms therefore won't help, to complain 
either so only active engagement to pursue a collective principle will put us 
in a better place as an organization. 
 
iAfrika
  
iAfrika
 
  
On 2014-09-04 10:14, mrfihla08 wrote:
Ma Afrika Izwe Lethu
 
I note that name calling and castigation of characters has become such a 
profession in the PAC. What surprises me, is that the very individuals such 
as Narius Moloto were paraded by some of us who are so vocal today against 
him. Narius was appointed by Mphahlele as party builder and Mphahlele's 
faction was fully behind him. He was subsequently elected at the Gcuwa circus 
as Secretary General. Those who were part of the Gcuwa circus must therefore 
take the blame for anything that they are opposing in Moloto today.  
 
Now, At what point ma Afrika are we going to talk about what can unite us 
instead of all this mud slinging and divisive language? We all know that 
instead of campaigning during the past elections, we were busy promoting our 
factional interests, taking each other to court, making statements in the 
media that decampaigned the PAC, and some of us even failed to vote. Today 
however we are so good at criticising instead of collectively accepting 
blame. Some of us who are talking today were part of Mphahlele's faction that 
created divisive parallel structures and expelled some of us from the PAC. 
Please ma Afrika let us stop with this childish and reactionary behavior that 
does not take us anywhere. All we need now is genuine solutions to the PAC 
problems. Factional statements and campaigns will not take us anywhere. For 
now, Moloto remains secretary general of the PAC, all the noises we can make 
against him will not help. The reality also here is that some
 of us are not genuine, we are not fighting Moloto because we have the 
interests of the PAC at heart. We are fighting Moloto because we are pushing 
factional interests. My proposal is that let us identify those aspects that can 
help us to unite the PAC instead of engaging in useless muddling.  
 
Fihla
  
 
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
 


 Original message 
From: Mbuyiselo Kantso 
Date:04/09/2014 08:41 (GMT+02:00) 
To: payco@googlegroups.com, linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za, ad...@pac.org.za, 
wgaj...@gmail.com, rammymfulw...@gmail.com, richardma...@yahoo.com, 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net, ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za, 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com, tumimod...@hotmail.co.za, tyamza...@yahoo.com, 
tnta...@webmail.co.za, isaa...@diplomat-global.com, i...@bataufc.com, 
lea...@hotmail.com, phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com, p

Fwd: Re: [PAYCO] Re: d: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference

2014-09-09 Thread Sbusiso Xaba
-- Forwarded message --
From: Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
Date: Sep 9, 2014 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Re: d: Submission of Resolutions for the National
Conference
To: Tongogara Ndima ndimatongog...@gmail.com
Cc:

Nothing has blinded me, including what you call my presidential ambition.

I am still going (if delegated) or will be represented by my branch
delegate to the Annual National Conference called by NEC. We will not be
prevented by any decree. Those that think that we must not attend Annual
Conference, should make the effort and convince us.

We are going to conference not blinded but extremely clear about our
recommendations to conference. We hope to persuade and convince other
branches on the removal of the decree, transparency in decision making,
clarity in roles and on public officers.

Regards,

Sbusiso Xaba
On Sep 9, 2014 9:09 AM, Tongogara Ndima ndimatongog...@gmail.com wrote:

 Comrade Xaba

 We have not seen any form of you being harassed, I ask you is basic and
 straight forward question. Your Presidential ambitions has blurred your
 judgement, nonetheless good luck!

 Regards
 Ndima


 On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 It is nice to hide behind high emotional  loaded language. Especially,
 when wanting to blackmail or intimidate. I will entertain neither emotional
 blackmail nor attempted intimidation. We are not much interested in
 personality cults either.

 Where are these many branches, You're talking about, Ndima? Branches that
 only told you? Why those branches have not attempted to persuade Tshwane
 and branches in Tshwane (no matter the number )? Engage us structural.
 those who have engage us found us persuadable and persuading.

 The view of Tshwane is unwavering. On the issues that should top the
 agenda of the conference. Yes, Bloemfontein Conference and other Annual
 Conferences that would follow in coming years. We are not married to our
 proposal or recommended  solutions. We will subordinate our ideas to
 superior ideas and we expect other members and branches to do so. We are
 sure that the Party must subdue self interest to its interest.

 We are under no illusion about the state of the Party, which is not the
 new state. Same state prevailing since the sixties. We do not expect a
 perfect Annual Conferences. Nevertheless, we make our small contribution.

 I must say this in closing, Tshwane passionately hates the decree. We are
 not reasonable on the owners of the decree. Decree is our enemy. It is
 unconstitutional not only in it application but its existence. It continue
 to manifest itself as the biggest threat to the party. Therefore, we will
 never recognise it. We are moving for transparent decision making, clarity
 of roles and structure seconding members not individual (including
 individual office bearer) - this is democratic centralism not dictatorship
 labeled democratic centralism.

 Revolutionary regards,

 Sbusiso Xaba
 On Sep 8, 2014 4:52 PM, 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth
 Congress payco@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Comrade Ndima

 Since the unbanning of the PAC I have never come cross the PAC being in
 this pathetic state of affairs especially towards congresses. Even if there
 were differences in structures and NEC itself our congresses showed
 maturity of members and NEC towards them. Any normal human beings
 especially leading a party like PAC they will know that first you cannot
 organise a conference when there is no presidency and other elected NEC
 members attending. On the other hand the SG is an expelled member under the
 decree by his own confirmed and once regularly paraded president in the
 name of comrade Mphethi.

 On the 7th March 2014 he Narius Moloto went to court on two issues and
 that was first to ask the court to declare Mphethi as the party leader and
 Mbuyiswa Gantsu to be replaced by Narius Moloto as authorised person in the
 IEC. Today their once touted President has invoked the decree they are so
 embarrassed that he Moloto cant take it instead he fills he is above
 everyone but I understand humiliation he is going through.

 Any self-respecting branch, region or structure will never attempt to
 associate itself with such an arrangement. We as the Sedibeng/Vaal Region
 will never even entertain anything about the so called Bloemfontein
 Conference. Comrade Mlambo told us that during the launch of the two
 manifestos prior elections he sent Cde, Letlapa and Narius asking them that
 he suggest the launches must not be done separately. He said Cde Teenage
 told him that he appreciate the request but he think it came too late. Then
 he sent Cde Narius text him asking if the request was from him and when Cde
 Mlambo confirmed it was him Cde Narius just ignored him.

 But like I said it will be unfair to blame Cde Narius for all this mess
 but rather blame those who see logic and find sense in this chaos.  It is
 not surprising when you see the behaviour

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-09 Thread Nkrumah Raymond KGAGUDI
 and 
its component structures. I never see such a big organization moving entirely 
backwards while having a lot of intelligent comrades. Seemingly we will spend 
another 20 years revolving in courts struggles and character assassination 
programs. Let us say somebody recommends what needs to be done, Who is that 
body? Are we going to listen to that somebody? How long are we going to listen 
as PAC members?  All what we spend time doing is to check who says what and we 
attack. 

The main issue here is not the party objective but personal objectives that 
have clouded the PAC Program. Super views which could have fixed the PAC were 
long cast out and thrown out of the table and nothing is learned by us as 
members. Mphahlele is out but the problem is still there in the PAC, now 
recently Mphethi is out but there is still a problem. What I can conclude now 
is that maybe all of us need to be out of PAC to allow PAC to grow, who else 
must be out of PAC for PAC to get it right? 


Regards, 
Thabani Zondo 
Tel : 072 020 5127 
smollzo...@gmail.com  HEAD OFFICE 
CENTENARY BUILDING 
CHURCH SQUARE 
PRETORIA 
0001  TEL: 012 323 9892 
FAX: 086 617 7851 
PO BOX 5981 
PRETORIA 
0001   

 


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com 
wrote:

M’Afrika 
 
I fully agree with M’Afrika Kutie the enemies of PAC are more happier given 
the rate of disintegration of PAC. This disintegration must be arrested late 
as it might be! At a principled level, I disagree with the notion that PAC 
branches and members are fighting Cde Moloto for such a notion create an 
illusion that all is well in the PAC. Constitutionally PAC NEC has 
disintegrated and cannot execute any constitutional roles without being 
questioned, there are three NEC groupings claiming legitimacy. As PAC we are 
facing parallel structures across the country including in APLAMVA and PAYCO! 
  
 
PAC NEC elected at Butterworth Congress in July 2012 no longer constitutes a 
quorum for it has split into three unequal and  non-quorating parts! 
According to e-mails and letters we saw since 11 May 2013, Cde Letlapa has 
been suspended and expelled, Cde Moloto has been suspended and expelled (By 
Cde Letlapa and now recently by acting President Mpethi), and allegedly Cde 
Mpethi has also being suspended! There are other NEC members equally 
suspended. So comrades in the NEC have resorted to suspending and expelling 
each other, while refusing to account to PAC branches and members at an 
inclusive national conference. 
 
There is no attack on the party’s annual conference but an attack to 
factional feuding and weakening of the PAC! 
 
This feuding which weakens the PAC must be arrested, and only an inclusive 
national conference can take the PAC towards a lasting political and 
organisational solution. 
 
Shango lashu 
 
Nkrumah  
From:payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: 04 September 2014 12:42 PM
To: Kutie Thondlana; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za
Cc: mrfihla08; payco@googlegroups.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; 
ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; 
richardma...@yahoo.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; 
tnta...@webmail.co.za; isaa...@diplomat-global.com; i...@bataufc.com; 
lea...@hotmail.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; 
smollzo...@gmail.com; sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; dud...@webmail.co.za; 
digashuma...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; 
hlubi.so...@gmail.com; joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com; L 
Lekgwathi; lucasmmol...@gmail.com; znyam...@gmail.com; 
billiard.s...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com;
 bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; ndhlo...@pac.org.za; Nakaphala Bauba; 
 nnyq...@gmail.com; m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com; 
 mvakalijust...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za; 
 malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za; 
 moshemahlom...@gmail.com; monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za; 
 mnd...@yahoo.com; po...@yahoo.com; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; 
 njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; dumisani...@gmail.com 

Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference
 
Cde Kutie
  
It is simple the enemies of the PAC are simply those who are using members 
for their individual purposes and to some extend in the interest of the 
people they serve out there. Let me assure you pretending there is no  need 
to have an elected NEC organising a conference and rather preferring an 
individual to do so and who think he is everything can only be accepted by 
you and others. Leaders who grew in this party and with long service should 
have known

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-08 Thread 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
...@gmail.com; dud...@webmail.co.za; 
digashuma...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; 
hlubi.so...@gmail.com; joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com; L 
Lekgwathi; lucasmmol...@gmail.com; znyam...@gmail.com; 
billiard.s...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com;
 bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; ndhlo...@pac.org.za; Nakaphala Bauba; 
nnyq...@gmail.com; m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com; 
mvakalijust...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za; 
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za; 
moshemahlom...@gmail.com; monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za; 
mnd...@yahoo.com; po...@yahoo.com; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; 
njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; dumisani...@gmail.com 

Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference
 
Cde Kutie
  
It is simple the enemies of the PAC are simply those who are using members for 
their individual purposes and to some extend in the interest of the people 
they serve out there. Let me assure you pretending there is no  need to have 
an elected NEC organising a conference and rather preferring an individual to 
do so and who think he is everything can only be accepted by you and others. 
Leaders who grew in this party and with long service should have known by now 
that whatever they trying to in May 11 last will catch up with them and those 
who thought they will benefit out of that fiasco they can rest a little more 
is to be seen. 
 
  
On Thursday, September 4, 2014 11:06 AM, Kutie Thondlana 
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com wrote: 
 
MaAfrika,
  
An All Inclusive Consultative Conference may just be our answer. We need a 
platform to address all the concerns mentioned in circulating emails and come 
up with a plan that will assist in rebuilding the PAC from then on. I'm sure 
our enemies operating within the party to destroy PAC are already celebrating 
success, let us not allow them that glory. We must prevent PAC from being made 
the ruling party Project.  PAC must never die! 
 
 
Izwe Lethu! 
Kutie
On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 10:38 AM, sndam...@pac-cape.org.za wrote: 
All these years fighting  each other but there is no solution . . . what's 
wrong with us - line in Lucky Dube's song 
The solution is you comrades. . . .lets get into our structures and bring that 
change. It is expected that there will be those who will try to maintain the 
current chaos by all means. Folding arms therefore won't help, to complain 
either so only active engagement to pursue a collective principle will put us 
in a better place as an organization. 
 
iAfrika
  
iAfrika
 
  
On 2014-09-04 10:14, mrfihla08 wrote:
Ma Afrika Izwe Lethu
 
I note that name calling and castigation of characters has become such a 
profession in the PAC. What surprises me, is that the very individuals such 
as Narius Moloto were paraded by some of us who are so vocal today against 
him. Narius was appointed by Mphahlele as party builder and Mphahlele's 
faction was fully behind him. He was subsequently elected at the Gcuwa circus 
as Secretary General. Those who were part of the Gcuwa circus must therefore 
take the blame for anything that they are opposing in Moloto today.  
 
Now, At what point ma Afrika are we going to talk about what can unite us 
instead of all this mud slinging and divisive language? We all know that 
instead of campaigning during the past elections, we were busy promoting our 
factional interests, taking each other to court, making statements in the 
media that decampaigned the PAC, and some of us even failed to vote. Today 
however we are so good at criticising instead of collectively accepting 
blame. Some of us who are talking today were part of Mphahlele's faction that 
created divisive parallel structures and expelled some of us from the PAC. 
Please ma Afrika let us stop with this childish and reactionary behavior that 
does not take us anywhere. All we need now is genuine solutions to the PAC 
problems. Factional statements and campaigns will not take us anywhere. For 
now, Moloto remains secretary general of the PAC, all the noises we can make 
against him will not help. The reality also here is that some
 of us are not genuine, we are not fighting Moloto because we have the 
interests of the PAC at heart. We are fighting Moloto because we are pushing 
factional interests. My proposal is that let us identify those aspects that can 
help us to unite the PAC instead of engaging in useless muddling.  
 
Fihla
  
 
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
 


 Original message 
From: Mbuyiselo Kantso 
Date:04/09/2014 08:41 (GMT+02:00) 
To: payco@googlegroups.com, linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za, ad...@pac.org.za, 
wgaj...@gmail.com, rammymfulw...@gmail.com, richardma...@yahoo.com, 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net, ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za, 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com, tumimod...@hotmail.co.za, tyamza...@yahoo.com, 
tnta...@webmail.co.za, isaa...@diplomat-global.com, i

RE: [PAYCO] Re: focused practical action

2014-09-08 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Izwe lethu M’Afrika

 

Our understanding of practical actions that must be undertaken to salvage PAC 
implies that we should forge principled unity by identifying and drawing all 
those who held and continue to hold PAC membership into one political roof. 
What will be the rational of excluding former PAC members who formed PAM? If 
Comrades were keen to draw Don Mattera, Pitiki ka Ntuli and some leaders who 
publicly resigned from PAC active politics and leadership roles, why exclude 
PAC?  

 

Shangu lashu

Nkrumah   

From: Mbulelo Raymond [mailto:mrfihl...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 06 September 2014 07:23 PM
To: Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Cc: Malesela Mogashwa; po...@yahoo.com; tyamza...@yahoo.com; 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net; isa...@diplomatsa.co.za; david mabitsela; 
pasmapresid...@gmail.com; joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; 
bulanng...@gmail.com; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; znyam...@gmail.com; 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; payco@googlegroups.com; Mapula Nkoana; 
sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; patrick.khum...@ekurhuleni.gov.za; 
pacaza...@webmail.co.za; phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
dud...@webmail.co.za; pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; Mbuyiselo Kantso; 
mangalisomdhl...@gmail.com; nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
d...@pac.org.za; ic...@telkomsa.net; richardma...@yahoo.com; 
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za
Subject: RE: [PAYCO] Re: focused practical action

 

Is PAM involved in PAC matters? I do not agree with this one.

On 05 Sep 2014 2:37 PM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com wrote:

Add Charge-in on behalf of PAM!

 

From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Linda 
Ndebele
Sent: 05 September 2014 02:31 PM
To: sndam...@pac-cape.org.za
Cc: Mbuyiselo Kantso; payco@googlegroups.com; d...@pac.org.za; 
richardma...@yahoo.com; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; isa...@diplomatsa.co.za; 
dud...@webmail.co.za; joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; znyam...@gmail.com; 
bulanng...@gmail.com; nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; mrfihl...@gmail.com; 
mbind...@gmail.com; 'Mapula Nkoana'; 'david mabitsela'; 
mangalisomdhl...@gmail.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net; 
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za; 
icuworkersun...@gmail.com; ic...@telkomsa.net; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; po...@yahoo.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
pasmapresid...@gmail.com; patrick.khum...@ekurhuleni.gov.za; 
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
Subject: [PAYCO] Re: focused practical action

 

Comrades,

The only way of making this work is to commit and honour promises we make. If 
we schedule a meeting, everyone who said will attend must be there and spend 
the duration of the meeting. Its hightime we make PAC priority. We must stop 
this thing of making promises and send apologies on an eleventh hour.

The process plan with clear milestones has to be in place to ensure that we 
achieve what we seek to achieve.

This might look insignificant but its these small things that have been setting 
PAC aback.

Izwe lethu! 

Linda

Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!

  _  

From: sndam...@pac-cape.org.za 

Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2014 12:45:03 +0200

To: kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za

Cc: Mbuyiselo Kantsombuyigan...@yahoo.com; payco@googlegroups.com; 
d...@pac.org.za; richardma...@yahoo.com; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; 
isa...@diplomatsa.co.za; dud...@webmail.co.za; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; znyam...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; 
nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; mrfihl...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; 
'Mapula Nkoana'mapulankoan...@gmail.com; 'david 
mabitsela'mabitselada...@gmail.com; mangalisomdhl...@gmail.com; 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; 
tnta...@webmail.co.za; icuworkersun...@gmail.com; ic...@telkomsa.net; 
p...@vodamail.co.za; phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; po...@yahoo.com; 
pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; 
pacaza...@webmail.co.za; pac.nc...@gmail.com; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; 
patrick.khum...@ekurhuleni.gov.za; sbusiso.x...@gmail.com

Subject: Re: focused practical action

 

from our side in the Western Cape, the majority branches has mandated the PEC 
to do the work. I will ensure that they (PEC) communicate with all PECs (that 
include the parallel structures). On your side please talk to your RECs/PECs to 
be supportive and come on board.

As Cde Kgagudi said that initial meeting of all these leaders must decide on 
the Mediation Team and Plan of Action.

Myself (Ndamane), Kgagudi, Ndebele, Gantsu, Fihla let us assist this process to 
ensure it does rollout and all relevant interest groups and structures are on 
board.

 

iAfrika

 

 

On 2014-09-05 12:18, Linda Ndebele wrote:

Comrades,

The critical question now is who will bell the cat? Who will convene the 
mediation team? Who should form part of mediation team? How would the whole 
exercise

Re: [PAYCO] Re: d: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference

2014-09-08 Thread Sbusiso Xaba
The Disciplinary Code is a policy not Constitution or a constitutional
clause. Therefore, within the Annual National Conference competence.

The proposal is not anti democratic centralism. It in fact reinforces it.
On Sep 8, 2014 8:07 AM, chargein...@gmail.com wrote:

 Comrades

 Removal of Clause 14 (Democratic Centtralism) is suicidal. This is clause
 encompasses democratic centralism and collective leadership intended to
 uproot factionalism and ensure unity and cohesion. Its violation does not
 warrant its removal from Disciplinary Code.

 Comrades should remember annual confereces do not adopt amendments but
 make recommendations to the supreme organ (highest decision making) of the
 Party - the National Congress- for adoption.  Failing which, such
 amendments are unconstitutional, invalid and illegal

 Izwe Lethu!

 Sent from my Nokia phone

 --Original message--
 From: Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
 To: payco@googlegroups.com
 Date: Sunday, September 7, 2014 1:55:50 PM GMT+0200
 Subject: [PAYCO] Fwd: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference

 Tshwane lobbies your support. In the coming conference.
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
 Date: Aug 4, 2014 10:10 PM
 Subject: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference
 To: Narius Moloto s...@pac.org.za, DSG @ PAC d...@pac.org.za
 Cc: Admin @ Pac ad...@pac.org.za, Tumediso Modise 
 tumimod...@hotmail.co.za, mashao reuben mashao.reu...@gmail.com,
 Lekgathi 0825164...@vodamail.co.za, Albert Mokoena 
 mokoen...@workmail.co.za

 Dear Secretary General

 In response to the updated conference notice dated 01 August 2014, the
 Tshwane Region hereby submit the proposed resolution for the Annual
 National Conference of 26 - 28 September 2014.  The region submits two
 discussion documents (proposed resolutions) namely *Delegation of Authority
 Code* and* Public Office Secondment Code*. The region believes that the
 lack of regulations around this area is main source of conflict.

 Furthermore, the Tshwane Region hereby adds an agenda point:* removal of
 democratic centralism section (clause 14) of the disciplinary code*. The
 region believes that this clause can be replaced be a new code such as the
 delegation of authority code.

 Revolutionary regards,

 Sbusiso Xaba
 Tshwane Regional Chairman

 --
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 Sending your posting to payco@googlegroups.com

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Re: [PAYCO] Re: d: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference

2014-09-08 Thread Tongogara Ndima
Comrade Sbusiso Xaba

Does this mean, you insist those few branches in Tshwane Region are going
ahead to attend Moloto (Less than Five) NEC Members grouping Bloemfontein
September Conference. When your peers in the PAC are raising the notion
that PAC cannot afford parallel and conflicting events which fuels
feuding and weakens the PAC? Are you arrogantly saying to all of us PAC
Branches and Members who want a united and focused PAC we are insane?

It was not long that Comrade Linda Ndebele wrote the following:- Allow me
to quote Lembede comrades for motivation purposes
 The philosophy of action must be the corner-stone of our policyIn our
ranks we have men and women of high talent and ability. Our poor,
disorderly position is not accasioned by lack of talent, but (a) by lack of
scientific organisation and utilisation of that talent, (b) by lack of
will-power. Africans! Our salvation lies in hard and systematic work!
Anton Lembede writing on Umthetheleli wa Bantu.

What are you going to loose if Tshwane Region joins many other branches and
members who will not be attending the Moloto (Less than Five) NEC Members
grouping Bloemfontein September Conference?

It is high time we must put the interests of PAC above our personal
interests, Ma-aforika!

Izwe-lethu
Ndima

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 8:07 AM, chargein...@gmail.com wrote:

 Comrades

 Removal of Clause 14 (Democratic Centtralism) is suicidal. This is clause
 encompasses democratic centralism and collective leadership intended to
 uproot factionalism and ensure unity and cohesion. Its violation does not
 warrant its removal from Disciplinary Code.

 Comrades should remember annual confereces do not adopt amendments but
 make recommendations to the supreme organ (highest decision making) of the
 Party - the National Congress- for adoption.  Failing which, such
 amendments are unconstitutional, invalid and illegal

 Izwe Lethu!

 Sent from my Nokia phone

 --Original message--
 From: Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
 To: payco@googlegroups.com
 Date: Sunday, September 7, 2014 1:55:50 PM GMT+0200
 Subject: [PAYCO] Fwd: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference

 Tshwane lobbies your support. In the coming conference.
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
 Date: Aug 4, 2014 10:10 PM
 Subject: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference
 To: Narius Moloto s...@pac.org.za, DSG @ PAC d...@pac.org.za
 Cc: Admin @ Pac ad...@pac.org.za, Tumediso Modise 
 tumimod...@hotmail.co.za, mashao reuben mashao.reu...@gmail.com,
 Lekgathi 0825164...@vodamail.co.za, Albert Mokoena 
 mokoen...@workmail.co.za

 Dear Secretary General

 In response to the updated conference notice dated 01 August 2014, the
 Tshwane Region hereby submit the proposed resolution for the Annual
 National Conference of 26 - 28 September 2014.  The region submits two
 discussion documents (proposed resolutions) namely *Delegation of Authority
 Code* and* Public Office Secondment Code*. The region believes that the
 lack of regulations around this area is main source of conflict.

 Furthermore, the Tshwane Region hereby adds an agenda point:* removal of
 democratic centralism section (clause 14) of the disciplinary code*. The
 region believes that this clause can be replaced be a new code such as the
 delegation of authority code.

 Revolutionary regards,

 Sbusiso Xaba
 Tshwane Regional Chairman

 --
 --
 Sending your posting to payco@googlegroups.com

 Unsubscribe by sending an email to payco-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com

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For 

Re: [PAYCO] Re: d: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference

2014-09-08 Thread 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
Comrade Ndima
 
Since the unbanning of the PAC I have never come cross the PAC being in this 
pathetic state of affairs especially towards congresses. Even if there were 
differences in structures and NEC itself our congresses showed maturity of 
members and NEC towards them. Any normal human beings especially leading a 
party like PAC they will know that first you cannot organise a conference when 
there is no presidency and other elected NEC members attending. On the other 
hand the SG is an expelled member under the decree by his own confirmed and 
once regularly paraded president in the name of comrade Mphethi. 
 
On the 7th March 2014 he Narius Moloto went to court on two issues and that was 
first to ask the court to declare Mphethi as the party leader and Mbuyiswa 
Gantsu to be replaced by Narius Moloto as authorised person in the IEC. Today 
their once touted President has invoked the decree they are so embarrassed that 
he Moloto cant take it instead he fills he is above everyone but I understand 
humiliation he is going through. 
 
Any self-respecting branch, region or structure will never attempt to associate 
itself with such an arrangement. We as the Sedibeng/Vaal Region will never even 
entertain anything about the so called Bloemfontein Conference. Comrade Mlambo 
told us that during the launch of the two manifestos prior elections he sent 
Cde, Letlapa and Narius asking them that he suggest the launches must not be 
done separately. He said Cde Teenage told him that he appreciate the request 
but he think it came too late. Then he sent Cde Narius text him asking if the 
request was from him and when Cde Mlambo confirmed it was him Cde Narius just 
ignored him. 
 
But like I said it will be unfair to blame Cde Narius for all this mess but 
rather blame those who see logic and find sense in this chaos.  It is not 
surprising when you see the behaviour of other comrades because even when the 
Gauteng Provincial Conference was organised you could laugh your stomach  out, 
if you hear how things were done and how it was dismissed by the same people 
who organised it. The same comrades who are attending these kind of gatherings 
they hope they will use a crisis to emerge as leaders and it wont work.
 
Just like the Birchwood Conference whether you are a member in good standing or 
not or a new member or a ghost all will be accepted as long as the people can 
fill the attendance register that will go in court papers for the November 
appeal. In short it will be all those who will attend such a conference no 
matter how small who will be carrying the crusade high not the SG. So let them 
close their ears and eyes and attend what is theirs and we continue to explore 
stabilising the party beyond the jamboree!
 
IZWE LETHU! 


On Monday, September 8, 2014 3:02 PM, Tongogara Ndima 
ndimatongog...@gmail.com wrote:
  


Comrade Sbusiso Xaba

Does this mean, you insist those few branches in Tshwane Region are going ahead 
to attend Moloto (Less than Five) NEC Members grouping Bloemfontein September 
Conference. When your peers in the PAC are raising the notion that PAC cannot 
afford parallel and conflicting events which fuels feuding and weakens the PAC? 
Are you arrogantly saying to all of us PAC Branches and Members who want a 
united and focused PAC we are insane? 

It was not long that Comrade Linda Ndebele wrote the following:- Allow me to 
quote Lembede comrades for
motivation purposes
 The philosophy of action must be the corner-stone of our policyIn
our ranks we have men and women of high talent and ability. Our poor,
disorderly position is not accasioned by lack of talent, but (a) by lack of
scientific organisation and utilisation of that talent, (b) by lack of
will-power. Africans! Our salvation lies in hard and systematic work!
Anton Lembede writing on Umthetheleli wa Bantu.

What are you going to loose if Tshwane Region joins many other branches and 
members who will not be attending the Moloto (Less than Five) NEC Members 
grouping Bloemfontein September Conference?

It is high time we must put the interests of PAC above our personal interests, 
Ma-aforika!

Izwe-lethu
Ndima 


On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 8:07 AM, chargein...@gmail.com wrote:

Comrades

Removal of Clause 14 (Democratic Centtralism) is suicidal. This is clause 
encompasses democratic centralism and collective leadership intended to uproot 
factionalism and ensure unity and cohesion. Its violation does not warrant its 
removal from Disciplinary Code.

Comrades should remember annual confereces do not adopt amendments but make 
recommendations to the supreme organ (highest decision making) of the Party - 
the National Congress- for adoption.  Failing which, such amendments are 
unconstitutional, invalid and illegal

Izwe Lethu!

Sent from my Nokia phone

--Original message--
From: Sbusiso Xaba sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
To: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 7, 2014 1:55:50 PM GMT+0200
Subject: [PAYCO] Fwd: 

Re: [PAYCO] Re: d: Submission of Resolutions for the National Conference

2014-09-08 Thread Sbusiso Xaba
It is nice to hide behind high emotional  loaded language. Especially, when
wanting to blackmail or intimidate. I will entertain neither emotional
blackmail nor attempted intimidation. We are not much interested in
personality cults either.

Where are these many branches, You're talking about, Ndima? Branches that
only told you? Why those branches have not attempted to persuade Tshwane
and branches in Tshwane (no matter the number )? Engage us structural.
those who have engage us found us persuadable and persuading.

The view of Tshwane is unwavering. On the issues that should top the agenda
of the conference. Yes, Bloemfontein Conference and other Annual
Conferences that would follow in coming years. We are not married to our
proposal or recommended  solutions. We will subordinate our ideas to
superior ideas and we expect other members and branches to do so. We are
sure that the Party must subdue self interest to its interest.

We are under no illusion about the state of the Party, which is not the new
state. Same state prevailing since the sixties. We do not expect a perfect
Annual Conferences. Nevertheless, we make our small contribution.

I must say this in closing, Tshwane passionately hates the decree. We are
not reasonable on the owners of the decree. Decree is our enemy. It is
unconstitutional not only in it application but its existence. It continue
to manifest itself as the biggest threat to the party. Therefore, we will
never recognise it. We are moving for transparent decision making, clarity
of roles and structure seconding members not individual (including
individual office bearer) - this is democratic centralism not dictatorship
labeled democratic centralism.

Revolutionary regards,

Sbusiso Xaba
On Sep 8, 2014 4:52 PM, 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth
Congress payco@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Comrade Ndima

 Since the unbanning of the PAC I have never come cross the PAC being in
 this pathetic state of affairs especially towards congresses. Even if there
 were differences in structures and NEC itself our congresses showed
 maturity of members and NEC towards them. Any normal human beings
 especially leading a party like PAC they will know that first you cannot
 organise a conference when there is no presidency and other elected NEC
 members attending. On the other hand the SG is an expelled member under the
 decree by his own confirmed and once regularly paraded president in the
 name of comrade Mphethi.

 On the 7th March 2014 he Narius Moloto went to court on two issues and
 that was first to ask the court to declare Mphethi as the party leader and
 Mbuyiswa Gantsu to be replaced by Narius Moloto as authorised person in the
 IEC. Today their once touted President has invoked the decree they are so
 embarrassed that he Moloto cant take it instead he fills he is above
 everyone but I understand humiliation he is going through.

 Any self-respecting branch, region or structure will never attempt to
 associate itself with such an arrangement. We as the Sedibeng/Vaal Region
 will never even entertain anything about the so called Bloemfontein
 Conference. Comrade Mlambo told us that during the launch of the two
 manifestos prior elections he sent Cde, Letlapa and Narius asking them that
 he suggest the launches must not be done separately. He said Cde Teenage
 told him that he appreciate the request but he think it came too late. Then
 he sent Cde Narius text him asking if the request was from him and when Cde
 Mlambo confirmed it was him Cde Narius just ignored him.

 But like I said it will be unfair to blame Cde Narius for all this mess
 but rather blame those who see logic and find sense in this chaos.  It is
 not surprising when you see the behaviour of other comrades because even
 when the Gauteng Provincial Conference was organised you could laugh your
 stomach  out, if you hear how things were done and how it was dismissed by
 the same people who organised it. The same comrades who are attending these
 kind of gatherings they hope they will use a crisis to emerge as leaders
 and it wont work.

 Just like the Birchwood Conference whether you are a member in good
 standing or not or a new member or a ghost all will be accepted as long
 as the people can fill the attendance register that will go in court papers
 for the November appeal. In short it will be all those who will attend such
 a conference no matter how small who will be carrying the crusade high not
 the SG. So let them close their ears and eyes and attend what is theirs and
 we continue to explore stabilising the party beyond the jamboree!

 IZWE LETHU!


   On Monday, September 8, 2014 3:02 PM, Tongogara Ndima 
 ndimatongog...@gmail.com wrote:


 Comrade Sbusiso Xaba

 Does this mean, you insist those few branches in Tshwane Region are going
 ahead to attend Moloto (Less than Five) NEC Members grouping Bloemfontein
 September Conference. When your peers in the PAC are raising the notion
 that PAC cannot afford 

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-07 Thread Smoll Zondo
Izwe Lethu

The honest truth is that in PAC everyone speaks a lot of things here in
media while doing nothing at all for the community or masses of Azania.
Personally I am of the view that only cowards are within the rank and file
of the PAC and its component structures. I never see such a big
organization moving entirely backwards while having a lot of intelligent
comrades. Seemingly we will spend another 20 years revolving in courts
struggles and character assassination programs. Let us say somebody
recommends what needs to be done, Who is that body? Are we going to listen
to that somebody? How long are we going to listen as PAC members?  All what
we spend time doing is to check who says what and we attack.

The main issue here is not the party objective but personal objectives that
have clouded the PAC Program. Super views which could have fixed the PAC
were long cast out and thrown out of the table and nothing is learned by us
as members. Mphahlele is out but the problem is still there in the PAC, now
recently Mphethi is out but there is still a problem. What I can conclude
now is that maybe all of us need to be out of PAC to allow PAC to grow, who
else must be out of PAC for PAC to get it right?

 *Regards,*

*Thabani Zondo*

*Tel : 072 020 5127*

*smollzo...@gmail.com smollzo...@gmail.com*

*HEAD OFFICE*

*CENTENARY BUILDING*

*CHURCH SQUARE*

*PRETORIA*

*0001*

*TEL: 012 323 9892*

*FAX: 086 617 7851*

*PO BOX 5981*

*PRETORIA*

*0001*






On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 M’Afrika



 I fully agree with M’Afrika Kutie the enemies of PAC are more happier
 given the rate of disintegration of PAC. This disintegration must be
 arrested late as it might be! At a principled level, I disagree with the
 notion that PAC branches and members are fighting Cde Moloto for such a
 notion create an illusion that all is well in the PAC. Constitutionally PAC
 NEC has disintegrated and cannot execute any constitutional roles without
 being questioned, there are three NEC groupings claiming legitimacy. As PAC
 we are facing parallel structures across the country including in APLAMVA
 and PAYCO!



 PAC NEC elected at Butterworth Congress in July 2012 no longer constitutes
 a quorum for it has split into three unequal and  non-quorating parts!
 According to e-mails and letters we saw since 11 May 2013, Cde Letlapa has
 been suspended and expelled, Cde Moloto has been suspended and expelled (By
 Cde Letlapa and now recently by acting President Mpethi), and allegedly Cde
 Mpethi has also being suspended! There are other NEC members equally
 suspended. So comrades in the NEC have resorted to suspending and expelling
 each other, while refusing to account to PAC branches and members at an
 inclusive national conference.



 There is no attack on the party’s annual conference but an attack to
 factional feuding and weakening of the PAC!



 This feuding which weakens the PAC must be arrested, and only an inclusive
 national conference can take the PAC towards a lasting political and
 organisational solution.



 Shango lashu



 Nkrumah

 *From:* payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com]
 *Sent:* 04 September 2014 12:42 PM
 *To:* Kutie Thondlana; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za
 *Cc:* mrfihla08; payco@googlegroups.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za;
 ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com;
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 ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com;
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 pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; smollzo...@gmail.com;
 sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; dud...@webmail.co.za; digashuma...@gmail.com;
 dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; hlubi.so...@gmail.com;
 joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com; L Lekgwathi;
 lucasmmol...@gmail.com; znyam...@gmail.com; billiard.s...@gmail.com;
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 mnd...@yahoo.com; po...@yahoo.com; celenjabulo...@gmail.com;
 njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; dumisani...@gmail.com

 *Subject:* Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference



 Cde Kutie



 It is simple the enemies of the PAC are simply those who are using members
 for their individual purposes and to some extend in the interest of the
 people they serve out

Re: [PAYCO] RE: focused practical action

2014-09-05 Thread 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
 shoulder on the deck to get our 
movement out of this mess.
Izwe lethu!
Linda Kwame Ndebele 
Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!
From: 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress 
payco@googlegroups.com
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 23:41:17 -0700
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Lekgwathi'0825164...@vodamail.co.za; 
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Bauba'nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; 
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mailto:dumisani...@gmail.com%3cdumisani...@gmail.com
ReplyTo: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference
 
Morning Cde. Raymond
 
I think it is now clear that up and above the feuding NEC you have an 
individual in the form of an S.G who thinks he wilds a wisdom above all 
others. By the way you are talking about a so called board room or office 
bound NEC which operates somewhere in a building in Joburg which can hardly 
pull one revolutionary programme. In terms of the history of the PAC you 
maybe sitting with an SG who has performed worse than any other S.G at any 
given. 
 
The SG went to several media houses claiming the PAC is ready to govern and 
the elections results suggest something else. Any revolutionary leader must 
be a person whom when time calls for serious introspection and checks and 
balances he does so to assist the party not his/her self righteousness 
attitude/mentality. Relying only on a conference which will have bussed and 
ghost branches wont assist the party in anyway. Take the Birchwood Conference 
I am told there were bussed delegates who never participated in discussions

RE: [PAYCO] RE: focused practical action

2014-09-05 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Izwe lethu

 

1. The proposal to form a mediation team is worth consideration;

2. Mediation team should develop a party unification strategy and campaign 
which should entail:-

a. The July 2012 Butterworth Congress elected NEC should reconstitute 
through mediation team;

b.Mediation team should furthermore engage PAC comrades who formed PAM to 
return (added).

c.Re-establish PAC Head office and re-organise party administration; 

d.The July 2012 Butterworth  Congress elected NEC should account to PAC 
branches and members;

e.All parallel structures from regions to provincial structures including 
APLAMVA and PAYCO should be dissolved; 

f. Inclusive structures should be formed from regions to provincial;

g.Constitutional structures mainly branches should be organised; 

h.Mediation team should furthermore oversee convening an inclusive national 
conference and national congress of PAC;

i.  Thus inclusive conference should be in reality inclusive and unifying 
based on principles and programme of action!

 

 

There many comrades not involved in the feuding,  who can be drawned from PAC, 
AZANYU, PASO and PASMA

 

Shango lashu

Nkrumah

 

 

Shango lashu 

 

From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: 05 September 2014 09:53 AM
To: payco@googlegroups.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za
Cc: d...@pac.org.za; richardma...@yahoo.com; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; 
isa...@diplomatsa.co.za; dud...@webmail.co.za; joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; 
znyam...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; 
mrfihl...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; 'Mapula Nkoana'; 'david mabitsela'; 
mangalisomdhl...@gmail.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net; 
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za; 
icuworkersun...@gmail.com; ic...@telkomsa.net; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; po...@yahoo.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
pasmapresid...@gmail.com; patrick.khum...@ekurhuleni.gov.za; 
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; sap...@gmail.com; digashuma...@gmail.com; 'sandla 
goqwana'; hoteli...@iburst.co.za; hlubi.so...@gmail.com; 
kidi.bolelw...@gmail.com; lea...@hotmail.com; limpopo.ad...@tawusa.org.za; 
legalu...@sacwu.co.za; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; nnyq...@gmail.com; 
nufbw...@wbs.co.za; 'Alton Mphethi'
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] RE: focused practical action

 

Comrades

 

Cdes Linda, Siya, Ndima, Fihla and others I think lets do our best to find a 
way out after the further submission by Cde Raymond. For now we must reach out 
to our comrades to constitutionality and reality. I read some letters from the 
SG which some indicate to constitutional obligations which I agree with him. 
The only issue now is to face reality and use the same constitution to go out 
of a crisis and rather not selectively use it to entrench an on going crisis. 
In the all governments vocabulary they call it doing checks and balances which 
means checking how far the laws, acts and regulations of the country can 
salvage any unwarranted situation.

 

When times call for change and reforms we must do so in manner that shows 
forward thinking and pragmatism. When the ZANLA forces in Zimbabwe mounted a 
front near Mozambique they needed a leader to lead them closure and I think 
that was the beginning of Robert Mugabe assuming the high moral control of ZANU 
because other leaders did not the need as soldiers saw it on the ground. 

 

Ours require a quick response hence suggestions from different comrades. 

 

 

 

On Friday, September 5, 2014 9:09 AM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi 
nrkgag...@gmail.com wrote:

 

Izwe lethu

 

1. The proposal to form a mediation team is worth consideration;

2. Mediation team should develop a party unification strategy and campaign 
which should entail:-

a. The July 2012 Butterworth Congress elected NEC should reconstitute 
through mediation team;

b. Re-establish PAC Head office and re-organise party administration; 

c.  The July 2012 Butterworth  Congress elected NEC should account to PAC 
branches and members;

d. All parallel structures from regions to provincial structures including 
APLAMVA and PAYCO should be dissolved; 

e. Inclusive structures should be formed from regions to provincial;

f.   Constitutional structures mainly branches should be organised; 

g. Mediation team should furthermore oversee convening an inclusive 
national conference and national congress of PAC;

 

There many comrades not involved in the feuding,  who can be drawned from PAC, 
AZANYU, PASO and PASMA

 

Shango lashu

Nkrumah

From: Mbuyiselo Kantso [mailto:mbuyigan...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: 05 September 2014 08:28 AM
To: sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za
Cc: d...@pac.org.za; richardma...@yahoo.com; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; 
isa...@diplomatsa.co.za; dud...@webmail.co.za; joseph.maqhek

Re: [PAYCO] RE: focused practical action

2014-09-05 Thread Linda Ndebele
...@gmail.com 
mailto:billiard.s...@gmail.com%3cbilliard.s...@gmail.com 
billiard.s...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com 
mailto:bulanng...@gmail.com%3cbulanng...@gmail.com bulanng...@gmail.com; 
bennet_j...@yahoo.com mailto:bennet_j...@yahoo.com%3cbennet_j...@yahoo.com 
bennet_j...@yahoo.com; bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com 
mailto:bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com%3cbulelanim1...@nokiamail.com 
bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; ndhlo...@pac.org.za 
mailto:ndhlo...@pac.org.za%3cndhlo...@pac.org.za ndhlo...@pac.org.za; 
'Nakaphala Bauba'nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; nnyq...@gmail.com 
mailto:nnyq...@gmail.com%3cnnyq...@gmail.com nnyq...@gmail.com; 
m...@soultalk.co.za mailto:m...@soultalk.co.za%3cm...@soultalk.co.za 
m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com 
mailto:mapulankoan...@gmail.com%3cmapulankoan...@gmail.com 
mapulankoan...@gmail.com; mvakalijust...@gmail.com 
mailto:mvakalijust...@gmail.com%3cmvakalijust...@gmail.com 
mvakalijust...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com 
mailto:mbind...@gmail.com%3cmbind...@gmail.com mbind...@gmail.com; 
mrfihl...@gmail.com mailto:mrfihl...@gmail.com%3cmrfihl...@gmail.com 
mrfihl...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za 
mailto:mphah...@eskom.co.za%3cmphah...@eskom.co.za mphah...@eskom.co.za; 
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com 
mailto:malingeplaat...@yahoo.com%3cmalingeplaat...@yahoo.com 
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com 
mailto:mphothobej...@yahoo.com%3cmphothobej...@yahoo.com 
mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za 
mailto:mokoen...@workmail.co.za%3cmokoen...@workmail.co.za 
mokoen...@workmail.co.za; moshemahlom...@gmail.com 
mailto:moshemahlom...@gmail.com%3cmoshemahlom...@gmail.com 
moshemahlom...@gmail.com; monyanepin...@gmail.com 
mailto:monyanepin...@gmail.com%3cmonyanepin...@gmail.com 
monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za 
mailto:mop...@pac.org.za%3cmop...@pac.org.za mop...@pac.org.za; 
mnd...@yahoo.com mailto:mnd...@yahoo.com%3cmnd...@yahoo.com 
mnd...@yahoo.com; po...@yahoo.com mailto:po...@yahoo.com%3cpo...@yahoo.com 
po...@yahoo.com; celenjabulo...@gmail.com 
mailto:celenjabulo...@gmail.com%3ccelenjabulo...@gmail.com 
celenjabulo...@gmail.com; njabulo.m...@gmail.com 
mailto:njabulo.m...@gmail.com%3cnjabulo.m...@gmail.com 
njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net 
mailto:vu...@telkomsa.net%3cvu...@telkomsa.net vu...@telkomsa.net; 
dumisani...@gmail.com mailto:dumisani...@gmail.com%3cdumisani...@gmail.com 
dumisani...@gmail.com

ReplyTo: payco@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 

Morning Cde. Raymond

 

I think it is now clear that up and above the feuding NEC you have an 
individual in the form of an S.G who thinks he wilds a wisdom above all others. 
By the way you are talking about a so called board room or office bound NEC 
which operates somewhere in a building in Joburg which can hardly pull one 
revolutionary programme. In terms of the history of the PAC you maybe sitting 
with an SG who has performed worse than any other S.G at any given. 

 

The SG went to several media houses claiming the PAC is ready to govern and the 
elections results suggest something else. Any revolutionary leader must be a 
person whom when time calls for serious introspection and checks and balances 
he does so to assist the party not his/her self righteousness 
attitude/mentality. Relying only on a conference which will have bussed and 
ghost branches wont assist the party in anyway. Take the Birchwood Conference I 
am told there were bussed delegates who never participated in discussions and 
some were drinking alcohol as they were there for an outing.

 

For me arguing endlessly with this so called NEC powers it is a waste of time 
and the lesser we talk about this SG the better it is. The truth is since the 
Butterworth Congress the PAC was never in politics and hence its silence in the 
political activities of the country. I don't blame the SG because if people who 
work with him attend meetings to discuss people and suspensions and expulsions 
and then call that progress in the party tough luck for PAC members and its 
future. Personally I hate people who like claiming things that don't exist and 
for me to suggest the party has developed capacity to operate behind enemy 
lines is cheap and weak revolutionary theory to say the least.

 

There is only one lesson we can draw from this post Butterworth NEC and that is 
when we approach the leadership issue we must all be sober and be serious about 
it. I think the reason why the PAC was successful from its inception it was 
mainly due to the facts I raised above and they elected office President and SG 
and put the leadership which had what it takes to build a revolutionary party. 
It is more than 24 months since we had an NEC but al  what we are consuming is 
a blame game. I have enough years in PAC to simply see what works and what wont 
work. You can have Cde Moloto for the next 100 years there as an SG all you are 
going to have is cheap manipulation, disorder, weekly

RE: [PAYCO] RE: focused practical action

2014-09-05 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Comrade Linda

 

You summation is crystal clear 1 Mediation, 2 National Programme of Action and 
3 All Inclusive Conference, 100% agreed. It will be encouraging to hear views 
of other PAC members around these three broad issues! 

 

We must address the following:- Venue and Place, Dates and Time, and Convener!

 

Shango lashu

Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi

We Must Attain Principled Unity To Salvage the PAC, For Total Emancipation and  
Unity of Africa, In Our Lifetime!

 

From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Linda 
Ndebele
Sent: 05 September 2014 12:33 PM
To: payco@googlegroups.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za
Cc: 'Mbuyiselo Kantso'; d...@pac.org.za; richardma...@yahoo.com; 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; isa...@diplomatsa.co.za; dud...@webmail.co.za; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; znyam...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; 
nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; mrfihl...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; 'Mapula 
Nkoana'; 'david mabitsela'; mangalisomdhl...@gmail.com; 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; 
tnta...@webmail.co.za; icuworkersun...@gmail.com; ic...@telkomsa.net; 
p...@vodamail.co.za; phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; po...@yahoo.com; 
pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; 
pac.nc...@gmail.com; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; patrick.khum...@ekurhuleni.gov.za
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] RE: focused practical action

 

Comrades,

From my analysis on our engagements including that of Cde Mphethi and Narious 
Moloto I can deduce a convergence on 3 broad issues:

1. Mediation
2. National Programme of Action, and
3. All-Inclusive National Conference.

If indeed my analysis are correct, then let's focus on implementing these, 
let's devise strategies and agree on the process plan.

Izwe lethu!

Linda

Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!

  _  

From: Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com 

Sender: payco@googlegroups.com 

Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 12:06:46 +0200

To: sndam...@pac-cape.org.za

ReplyTo: payco@googlegroups.com 

Cc: 'Mbuyiselo Kantso'mbuyigan...@yahoo.com; kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za; 
d...@pac.org.za; richardma...@yahoo.com; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; 
isa...@diplomatsa.co.za; dud...@webmail.co.za; 
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; znyam...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; 
nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; mrfihl...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; 
'Mapula Nkoana'mapulankoan...@gmail.com; 'david 
mabitsela'mabitselada...@gmail.com; mangalisomdhl...@gmail.com; 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; 
tnta...@webmail.co.za; icuworkersun...@gmail.com; ic...@telkomsa.net; 
p...@vodamail.co.za; phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; po...@yahoo.com; 
pacmogalec...@gmail.com; payco@googlegroups.com; 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
pasmapresid...@gmail.com; patrick.khum...@ekurhuleni.gov.za; 
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; sap...@gmail.com; digashuma...@gmail.com; 'sandla 
goqwana'goqwana.san...@gmail.com; hoteli...@iburst.co.za; 
hlubi.so...@gmail.com; kidi.bolelw...@gmail.com; lea...@hotmail.com; 
limpopo.ad...@tawusa.org.za; legalu...@sacwu.co.za; 
celenjabulo...@gmail.com; nnyq...@gmail.com; nufbw...@wbs.co.za; 'Alton 
Mphethi'altonmphe...@gmail.com; paroot...@yahoo.com; 
jtrimblefam...@hotmail.com; 'Vusi Mahlangu'vemahla...@gmail.com; 
ntsiemohl...@gmail.com; dumisani...@gmail.com

Subject: [PAYCO] RE: focused practical action

 

Shango lashu

 

It is then appropriate that such a meeting to be convened should be inclusive 
of all provincial and regional structures. The invitation should also be 
extended to PAM comrades and include component structures. The meetings should 
primarily focus on first necessary steps to forge concrete unity for action, 
thus priorities agreement on a Plan of Action and the formation of a Mediation 
Team with clear time lines.

 

Shango lashu!

Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi

We Must Attain Principled Unity To Salvage the PAC, For Total Emancipation and  
Unity of Africa, In Our Lifetime!

 

From: sndam...@pac-cape.org.za [mailto:sndam...@pac-cape.org.za] 
Sent: 05 September 2014 11:51 AM
To: Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Cc: 'Mbuyiselo Kantso'; kwamendeb...@webmail.co.za; d...@pac.org.za; 
richardma...@yahoo.com; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; isa...@diplomatsa.co.za; 
dud...@webmail.co.za; joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; znyam...@gmail.com; 
bulanng...@gmail.com; nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; mrfihl...@gmail.com; 
mbind...@gmail.com; 'Mapula Nkoana'; 'david mabitsela'; 
mangalisomdhl...@gmail.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net; 
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za; 
icuworkersun...@gmail.com; ic...@telkomsa.net; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; po...@yahoo.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; 
payco@googlegroups.com; pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; 
pac.nc...@gmail.com; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; 
patrick.khum...@ekurhuleni.gov.za; sbusiso.x...@gmail.com

RE: [PAYCO] Re: focused practical action

2014-09-05 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
 our 
movement out of this mess.
Izwe lethu!
Linda Kwame Ndebele 

Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!

From: 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress 
payco@googlegroups.com

Sender: payco@googlegroups.com

Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 23:41:17 -0700

To: mailto:payco@googlegroups.com%3cpa...@googlegroups.com; 
mailto:linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za%3clinda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; 
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mailto:rammymfulw...@gmail.com%3crammymfulw...@gmail.com; 
mailto:richardma...@yahoo.com%3crichardma...@yahoo.com; 
mailto:river.mla...@telkomsa.net%3criver.mla...@telkomsa.net; 
mailto:ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za%3cramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; 
mailto:takalaniligeg...@gmail.com%3ctakalaniligeg...@gmail.com; 
mailto:tumimod...@hotmail.co.za%3ctumimod...@hotmail.co.za; 
mailto:tyamza...@yahoo.com%3ctyamza...@yahoo.com; 
mailto:tnta...@webmail.co.za%3ctnta...@webmail.co.za; 
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mailto:pacaza...@webmail.co.za%3cpacaza...@webmail.co.za; 
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mailto:smollzo...@gmail.com%3csmollzo...@gmail.com; 
mailto:sndam...@pac-cape.org.za%3csndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 
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mailto:dud...@webmail.co.za%3cdud...@webmail.co.za; 
mailto:digashuma...@gmail.com%3cdigashuma...@gmail.com; 
mailto:dmalo...@klerksdorp.org%3cdmalo...@klerksdorp.org; 
mailto:goqwana.san...@gmail.com%3cgoqwana.san...@gmail.com; 
mailto:hlubi.so...@gmail.com%3chlubi.so...@gmail.com; 
mailto:joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com%3cjoseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; 
mailto:jntab...@gmail.com%3cjntab...@gmail.com; 
mailto:kutie.thondl...@gmail.com%3ckutie.thondl...@gmail.com; 'L 
Lekgwathi'0825164...@vodamail.co.za; 
mailto:lucasmmol...@gmail.com%3clucasmmol...@gmail.com; 
mailto:znyam...@gmail.com%3cznyam...@gmail.com; 
mailto:billiard.s...@gmail.com%3cbilliard.s...@gmail.com; 
mailto:bulanng...@gmail.com%3cbulanng...@gmail.com; 
mailto:bennet_j...@yahoo.com%3cbennet_j...@yahoo.com; 
mailto:bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com%3cbulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; 
mailto:ndhlo...@pac.org.za%3cndhlo...@pac.org.za; 'Nakaphala 
Bauba'nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; 
mailto:nnyq...@gmail.com%3cnnyq...@gmail.com; 
mailto:m...@soultalk.co.za%3cm...@soultalk.co.za; 
mailto:mapulankoan...@gmail.com%3cmapulankoan...@gmail.com; 
mailto:mvakalijust...@gmail.com%3cmvakalijust...@gmail.com; 
mailto:mbind...@gmail.com%3cmbind...@gmail.com; 
mailto:mrfihl...@gmail.com%3cmrfihl...@gmail.com; 
mailto:mphah...@eskom.co.za%3cmphah...@eskom.co.za; 
mailto:malingeplaat...@yahoo.com%3cmalingeplaat...@yahoo.com; 
mailto:mphothobej...@yahoo.com%3cmphothobej...@yahoo.com; 
mailto:mokoen...@workmail.co.za%3cmokoen...@workmail.co.za; 
mailto:moshemahlom...@gmail.com%3cmoshemahlom...@gmail.com; 
mailto:monyanepin...@gmail.com%3cmonyanepin...@gmail.com; 
mailto:mop...@pac.org.za%3cmop...@pac.org.za; 
mailto:mnd...@yahoo.com%3cmnd...@yahoo.com; 
mailto:po...@yahoo.com%3cpo...@yahoo.com; 
mailto:celenjabulo...@gmail.com%3ccelenjabulo...@gmail.com; 
mailto:njabulo.m...@gmail.com%3cnjabulo.m...@gmail.com; 
mailto:vu...@telkomsa.net%3cvu...@telkomsa.net; 
mailto:dumisani...@gmail.com%3cdumisani...@gmail.com

ReplyTo: payco@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 

Morning Cde. Raymond

 

I think it is now clear that up and above the feuding NEC you have an 
individual in the form of an S.G who thinks he wilds a wisdom above all others. 
By the way you are talking about a so called board room or office bound NEC 
which operates somewhere in a building in Joburg which can hardly pull one 
revolutionary programme. In terms of the history of the PAC you maybe sitting 
with an SG who has performed worse than any other S.G at any given. 

 

The SG went to several media houses claiming the PAC is ready to govern and the 
elections results suggest something else. Any revolutionary leader must be a 
person whom when time calls for serious introspection and checks and balances 
he does so to assist the party not his/her self righteousness 
attitude/mentality. Relying only on a conference which will have bussed and 
ghost branches wont assist the party in anyway. Take the Birchwood Conference I 
am told there were bussed delegates who never participated in discussions and 
some were

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-04 Thread 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
Morning Cde. Raymond
 
I think it is now clear that up and above the feuding NEC you have an 
individual in the form of an S.G who thinks he wilds a wisdom above all others. 
By the way you are talking about a so called board room or office bound NEC 
which operates somewhere in a building in Joburg which can hardly pull one 
revolutionary programme. In terms of the history of the PAC you maybe sitting 
with an SG who has performed worse than any other S.G at any given. 
 
The SG went to several media houses claiming the PAC is ready to govern and the 
elections results suggest something else. Any revolutionary leader must be a 
person whom when time calls for serious introspection and checks and balances 
he does so to assist the party not his/her self righteousness 
attitude/mentality. Relying only on a conference which will have bussed and 
ghost branches wont assist the party in anyway. Take the Birchwood Conference I 
am told there were bussed delegates who never participated in discussions and 
some were drinking alcohol as they were there for an outing.
 
 For me arguing endlessly with this so called NEC powers it is a waste of time 
and the lesser we talk about this SG the better it is. The truth is since the 
Butterworth Congress the PAC was never in politics and hence its silence in the 
political activities of the country. I don't blame the SG because if people who 
work with him attend meetings to discuss people and suspensions and expulsions 
and then call that progress in the party tough luck for PAC members and its 
future. Personally I hate people who like claiming things that don't exist and 
for me to suggest the party has developed capacity to operate behind enemy 
lines is cheap and weak revolutionary theory to say the least.
 
There is only one lesson we can draw from this post Butterworth NEC and that is 
when we approach the leadership issue we must all be sober and be serious about 
it. I think the reason why the PAC was successful from its inception it was 
mainly due to the facts I raised above and they elected office President and SG 
and put the leadership which had what it takes to build a revolutionary party. 
It is more than 24 months since we had an NEC but al  what we are consuming is 
a blame game. I have enough years in PAC to simply see what works and what wont 
work. You can have Cde Moloto for the next 100 years there as an SG all you are 
going to have is cheap manipulation, disorder, weekly suspensions and poor 
performance of PAC at all levels of party operations. In short it does not 
matter how right he says things will remain the same.
 
Izwe Lethu!
 
 
  


On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 5:10 PM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi 
nrkgag...@gmail.com wrote:
  


Izwe lethu M'Afrika

Comrade Linda, the attached documents, once more confirms the question you 
raised. But the task facing all of us, it is to salvage the PAC from complete 
obliteration waged by the feuding 'NEC'. 

Founding leaders of PAC are turning in their graves!

Shango lashu
Nkrumah 


-- Forwarded message --
From: Admin @ Pac ad...@pac.org.za
Date: 02 Sep 2014 3:44 PM
Subject: attack on party annual conference
To: Admin @ Pac ad...@pac.org.za, wgaj...@gmail.com,  
rammymfulw...@gmail.com, richardma...@yahoo.com,  
river.mla...@telkomsa.net, ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za,  
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com, tumimod...@hotmail.co.za,  
tyamza...@yahoo.com, tnta...@webmail.co.za, isaa...@diplomat-global.com, 
i...@bataufc.com, lea...@hotmail.com, phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com,  
p...@vodamail.co.za, Cape paccapeme...@webmail.co.za,  
pasmapresid...@gmail.com, pactshwanereg...@gmail.com,  
pacmogalec...@gmail.com, pac.nc...@gmail.com,  
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za, pacaza...@webmail.co.za, Narius Moloto  
s...@pac.org.za, smollzo...@gmail.com, sndam...@pac-cape.org.za,  
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com, dud...@webmail.co.za, digashuma...@gmail.com, 
Delano Maloney dmalo...@klerksdorp.org, goqwana.san...@gmail.com,  
hlubi.so...@gmail.com, joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com, jntab...@gmail.com, 
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com, Lekgathi
 0825164...@vodamail.co.za,  lucasmmol...@gmail.com, znyam...@gmail.com, 
billiard.s...@gmail.com,  bulanng...@gmail.com, bennet_j...@yahoo.com, 
bulelanim1718  bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com, ndhlo...@pac.org.za,  
nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com, nnyq...@gmail.com, Michael Muendane  
m...@soultalk.co.za, mapulankoan...@gmail.com, mvakalijust...@gmail.com, 
mbind...@gmail.com, mrfihl...@gmail.com, Mohlomphegi Mphahlele  
mphah...@eskom.co.za, malingeplaat...@yahoo.com, mphothobej...@yahoo.com, 
mokoen...@workmail.co.za, moshemahlom...@gmail.com, Pinkie Monyane  
monyanepin...@gmail.com, mop...@pac.org.za, mnd...@yahoo.com,  
po...@yahoo.com, celenjabulo...@gmail.com
Cc: njabulo.m...@gmail.com, vu...@telkomsa.net,  
river.mla...@telkomsa.net, tnta...@webmail.co.za

Izwe Lethu



Please find the attached for your attention.

Pass the message to other structure and members.



Regards

PAC of Azania

Tel 

RE: [PAYCO] INVITATION TO PAC NATIONAL CAUCUS - CONFERENCE/CONGRESS

2014-09-04 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
%3cpacaza...@webmail.co.za
pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za
mailto:s...@pac.org.za%3...@pac.org.za s...@pac.org.za; smollzo...@gmail.com
mailto:smollzo...@gmail.com%3csmollzo...@gmail.com smollzo...@gmail.com;
sndam...@pac-cape.org.za
mailto:sndam...@pac-cape.org.za%3csndam...@pac-cape.org.za
sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; sbusiso.x...@gmail.com
mailto:sbusiso.x...@gmail.com%3csbusiso.x...@gmail.com
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; dud...@webmail.co.za
mailto:dud...@webmail.co.za%3cdud...@webmail.co.za dud...@webmail.co.za;
digashuma...@gmail.com
mailto:digashuma...@gmail.com%3cdigashuma...@gmail.com
digashuma...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org
mailto:dmalo...@klerksdorp.org%3cdmalo...@klerksdorp.org
dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; goqwana.san...@gmail.com
mailto:goqwana.san...@gmail.com%3cgoqwana.san...@gmail.com
goqwana.san...@gmail.com; hlubi.so...@gmail.com
mailto:hlubi.so...@gmail.com%3chlubi.so...@gmail.com
hlubi.so...@gmail.com; joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com
mailto:joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com%3cjoseph.maqhek...@sasol.com
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com
mailto:jntab...@gmail.com%3cjntab...@gmail.com jntab...@gmail.com;
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com
mailto:kutie.thondl...@gmail.com%3ckutie.thondl...@gmail.com
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com; 'L Lekgwathi'0825164...@vodamail.co.za;
lucasmmol...@gmail.com
mailto:lucasmmol...@gmail.com%3clucasmmol...@gmail.com
lucasmmol...@gmail.com; znyam...@gmail.com
mailto:znyam...@gmail.com%3cznyam...@gmail.com znyam...@gmail.com;
billiard.s...@gmail.com
mailto:billiard.s...@gmail.com%3cbilliard.s...@gmail.com
billiard.s...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com
mailto:bulanng...@gmail.com%3cbulanng...@gmail.com bulanng...@gmail.com;
bennet_j...@yahoo.com mailto:bennet_j...@yahoo.com%3cbennet_j...@yahoo.com
bennet_j...@yahoo.com; bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com
mailto:bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com%3cbulelanim1...@nokiamail.com
bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; ndhlo...@pac.org.za
mailto:ndhlo...@pac.org.za%3cndhlo...@pac.org.za ndhlo...@pac.org.za;
'Nakaphala Bauba'nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com; nnyq...@gmail.com
mailto:nnyq...@gmail.com%3cnnyq...@gmail.com nnyq...@gmail.com;
m...@soultalk.co.za mailto:m...@soultalk.co.za%3cm...@soultalk.co.za
m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com
mailto:mapulankoan...@gmail.com%3cmapulankoan...@gmail.com
mapulankoan...@gmail.com; mvakalijust...@gmail.com
mailto:mvakalijust...@gmail.com%3cmvakalijust...@gmail.com
mvakalijust...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com
mailto:mbind...@gmail.com%3cmbind...@gmail.com mbind...@gmail.com;
mrfihl...@gmail.com mailto:mrfihl...@gmail.com%3cmrfihl...@gmail.com
mrfihl...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za
mailto:mphah...@eskom.co.za%3cmphah...@eskom.co.za mphah...@eskom.co.za;
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com
mailto:malingeplaat...@yahoo.com%3cmalingeplaat...@yahoo.com
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com
mailto:mphothobej...@yahoo.com%3cmphothobej...@yahoo.com
mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za
mailto:mokoen...@workmail.co.za%3cmokoen...@workmail.co.za
mokoen...@workmail.co.za; moshemahlom...@gmail.com
mailto:moshemahlom...@gmail.com%3cmoshemahlom...@gmail.com
moshemahlom...@gmail.com; monyanepin...@gmail.com
mailto:monyanepin...@gmail.com%3cmonyanepin...@gmail.com
monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za
mailto:mop...@pac.org.za%3cmop...@pac.org.za mop...@pac.org.za;
mnd...@yahoo.com mailto:mnd...@yahoo.com%3cmnd...@yahoo.com
mnd...@yahoo.com; po...@yahoo.com
mailto:po...@yahoo.com%3cpo...@yahoo.com po...@yahoo.com;
celenjabulo...@gmail.com
mailto:celenjabulo...@gmail.com%3ccelenjabulo...@gmail.com
celenjabulo...@gmail.com; njabulo.m...@gmail.com
mailto:njabulo.m...@gmail.com%3cnjabulo.m...@gmail.com
njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net
mailto:vu...@telkomsa.net%3cvu...@telkomsa.net vu...@telkomsa.net;
dumisani...@gmail.com mailto:dumisani...@gmail.com%3cdumisani...@gmail.com
dumisani...@gmail.com

ReplyTo: payco@googlegroups.com 

Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 

Morning Cde. Raymond

 

I think it is now clear that up and above the feuding NEC you have an
individual in the form of an S.G who thinks he wilds a wisdom above all
others. By the way you are talking about a so called board room or office
bound NEC which operates somewhere in a building in Joburg which can hardly
pull one revolutionary programme. In terms of the history of the PAC you
maybe sitting with an SG who has performed worse than any other S.G at any
given. 

 

The SG went to several media houses claiming the PAC is ready to govern and
the elections results suggest something else. Any revolutionary leader must
be a person whom when time calls for serious introspection and checks and
balances he does so to assist the party not his/her self righteousness
attitude/mentality. Relying only on a conference which will have bussed and
ghost branches wont assist the party in anyway. Take the Birchwood
Conference I am told there were bussed delegates who never participated in
discussions and some were

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-04 Thread Linda Ndebele
...@yahoo.com; 
celenjabulo...@gmail.comcelenjabulo...@gmail.com; 
njabulo.m...@gmail.comnjabulo.m...@gmail.com; 
vu...@telkomsa.netvu...@telkomsa.net; 
dumisani...@gmail.comdumisani...@gmail.com
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

Morning Cde. Raymond
 
I think it is now clear that up and above the feuding NEC you have an 
individual in the form of an S.G who thinks he wilds a wisdom above all others. 
By the way you are talking about a so called board room or office bound NEC 
which operates somewhere in a building in Joburg which can hardly pull one 
revolutionary programme. In terms of the history of the PAC you maybe sitting 
with an SG who has performed worse than any other S.G at any given. 
 
The SG went to several media houses claiming the PAC is ready to govern and the 
elections results suggest something else. Any revolutionary leader must be a 
person whom when time calls for serious introspection and checks and balances 
he does so to assist the party not his/her self righteousness 
attitude/mentality. Relying only on a conference which will have bussed and 
ghost branches wont assist the party in anyway. Take the Birchwood Conference I 
am told there were bussed delegates who never participated in discussions and 
some were drinking alcohol as they were there for an outing.
 
 For me arguing endlessly with this so called NEC powers it is a waste of time 
and the lesser we talk about this SG the better it is. The truth is since the 
Butterworth Congress the PAC was never in politics and hence its silence in the 
political activities of the country. I don't blame the SG because if people who 
work with him attend meetings to discuss people and suspensions and expulsions 
and then call that progress in the party tough luck for PAC members and its 
future. Personally I hate people who like claiming things that don't exist and 
for me to suggest the party has developed capacity to operate behind enemy 
lines is cheap and weak revolutionary theory to say the least.
 
There is only one lesson we can draw from this post Butterworth NEC and that is 
when we approach the leadership issue we must all be sober and be serious about 
it. I think the reason why the PAC was successful from its inception it was 
mainly due to the facts I raised above and they elected office President and SG 
and put the leadership which had what it takes to build a revolutionary party. 
It is more than 24 months since we had an NEC but al  what we are consuming is 
a blame game. I have enough years in PAC to simply see what works and what wont 
work. You can have Cde Moloto for the next 100 years there as an SG all you are 
going to have is cheap manipulation, disorder, weekly suspensions and poor 
performance of PAC at all levels of party operations. In short it does not 
matter how right he says things will remain the same.
 
Izwe Lethu!
 
 
  


On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 5:10 PM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi 
nrkgag...@gmail.com wrote:
  


Izwe lethu M'Afrika

Comrade Linda, the attached documents, once more confirms the question you 
raised. But the task facing all of us, it is to salvage the PAC from complete 
obliteration waged by the feuding 'NEC'. 

Founding leaders of PAC are turning in their graves!

Shango lashu
Nkrumah 


-- Forwarded message --
From: Admin @ Pac ad...@pac.org.za
Date: 02 Sep 2014 3:44 PM
Subject: attack on party annual conference
To: Admin @ Pac ad...@pac.org.za, wgaj...@gmail.com,  
rammymfulw...@gmail.com, richardma...@yahoo.com,  
river.mla...@telkomsa.net, ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za,  
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com, tumimod...@hotmail.co.za,  
tyamza...@yahoo.com, tnta...@webmail.co.za, isaa...@diplomat-global.com, 
i...@bataufc.com, lea...@hotmail.com, phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com,  
p...@vodamail.co.za, Cape paccapeme...@webmail.co.za,  
pasmapresid...@gmail.com, pactshwanereg...@gmail.com,  
pacmogalec...@gmail.com, pac.nc...@gmail.com,  
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za, pacaza...@webmail.co.za, Narius Moloto  
s...@pac.org.za, smollzo...@gmail.com, sndam...@pac-cape.org.za,  
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com, dud...@webmail.co.za, digashuma...@gmail.com, 
Delano Maloney dmalo...@klerksdorp.org, goqwana.san...@gmail.com,  
hlubi.so...@gmail.com, joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com, jntab...@gmail.com, 
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com, Lekgathi
 0825164...@vodamail.co.za,  lucasmmol...@gmail.com, znyam...@gmail.com, 
billiard.s...@gmail.com,  bulanng...@gmail.com, bennet_j...@yahoo.com, 
bulelanim1718  bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com, ndhlo...@pac.org.za,  
nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com, nnyq...@gmail.com, Michael Muendane  
m...@soultalk.co.za, mapulankoan...@gmail.com, mvakalijust...@gmail.com, 
mbind...@gmail.com, mrfihl...@gmail.com, Mohlomphegi Mphahlele  
mphah...@eskom.co.za, malingeplaat...@yahoo.com, mphothobej...@yahoo.com, 
mokoen...@workmail.co.za, moshemahlom...@gmail.com, Pinkie Monyane  
monyanepin...@gmail.com, mop...@pac.org.za, mnd...@yahoo.com,  
po

Re: [PAYCO] INVITATION TO PAC NATIONAL CAUCUS - CONFERENCE/CONGRESS

2014-09-04 Thread mphirim

Thank you Mo Afrika Mashilo 

PAC is in a state that is unacceptable and for that reason it is caucuses of 
this magnitude that will ensure that we chat way forward and March Forward. 

It is a fact that we can never see things the same way and that in itself does 
not necessarily mean that if Africanists disagree on certain positions then 
they are Factions. 

My observation is that there are too many Genius around the Bargaining Table 
which hamper progress in the PAC. 

Personalities and hatred deeply put the PAC in the state it find itself today. 
I appreciate the fact that MaAfrika remain to be members of the PAC though is 
the PAC they don't want, hence the Caucus is attempting to find the PAC people 
wants. 

Cde Ray it does not assist the PAC to have people talking in Corridors and 
Social networks and dismiss any attempt made to create a platform where people 
can air their views and put their positions across so that the strongest 
Argument Wins.

Hence tis invitation is open to all PAC members not single - out any grouping, 
click or Faction. The PAC have no Luxury to correct this situation, for us to 
have Provincial Bossberaads is a brilliant Idea, but we need the Center to 
cater for operational needs of the party while in the process of healing and 
uniting forces. 

SSS   
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

-Original Message-
From: Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com
Sender: payco@googlegroups.com
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 10:36:44 
To: payco@googlegroups.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; 
ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; 
richardma...@yahoo.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net; 
ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; 'Tumediso 
Modise'tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; 
tnta...@webmail.co.za; isaa...@diplomat-global.com; i...@bataufc.com; 
lea...@hotmail.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
'Simphiwe Nofuma'paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; 
smollzo...@gmail.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 'Sbusiso 
Xaba'sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; dud...@webmail.co.za; 
digashuma...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; 
goqwana.san...@gmail.com; 'Tumi Modise 2'modisetumed...@gmail.com; 'Sonia 
Masemola'masemola...@gmail.com; 'Pac Albert 
Mokoena'mokoen...@workmail.co.za; 'K Maunnatlala'patric...@ncp.co.za; 
'Matome'mselapi...@yahoo.co.za; 'Katlego Lekgoathi'katlegodor...@gmail.com; 
hote...@iburst.co.za; hoteli...@ibursp.co.za
Reply-To: payco@googlegroups.com
Cc: 'Bosole Chidi'bosolech...@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [PAYCO] INVITATION TO PAC  NATIONAL CAUCUS - CONFERENCE/CONGRESS

M'Afrika Masoga

 

Why can't focus be directed towards organising inclusive Gauteng provincial
meeting to consider ways and means to unite and rebuild PAC than national
caucuses which ends up deepening internal party feuding and deepening
factionalism? I strongly believe we should devote our energies to mobilise
and organise all branches and members into an inclusive provincial meetings!


 

The September Bloemfontein National Conference will become another waste of
time in the same vein Birchwood August 2013 Conference is and will worsen
the crisis facing the PAC! 2014 May national elections are a clear indicator
that as PAC members and branches we cannot pretend that all is rosy within
the PAC!

 

Shango lashu

Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi

  

 

 

 

From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
mphi...@gmail.com
Sent: 04 September 2014 10:10 AM
To: payco@googlegroups.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za;
ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com;
richardma...@yahoo.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net;
ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; 'Tumediso Modise';
tyamza...@yahoo.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za; isaa...@diplomat-global.com;
i...@bataufc.com; lea...@hotmail.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com;
p...@vodamail.co.za; Simphiwe Nofuma; pasmapresid...@gmail.com;
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com;
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za;
smollzo...@gmail.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; Sbusiso Xaba;
dud...@webmail.co.za; digashuma...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org;
goqwana.san...@gmail.com; Tumi Modise 2; Sonia Masemola; Pac Albert Mokoena;
K Maunnatlala; Matome; Katlego Lekgoathi; hote...@iburst.co.za;
hoteli...@ibursp.co.za
Cc: Bosole Chidi
Subject: [PAYCO] INVITATION TO PAC NATIONAL CAUCUS - CONFERENCE/CONGRESS

 


Revolutionary Greetings MaAfrika A Mahle 

An invitation is extended to a PAC National Caucus that already met on the
30/08/14 and will continue as follows:

Date: 13/09/14

Time: 09:00 for 10:00 - 17:00

Venue : Tshwane : Boardroom 209 Ouraadsaal, opposite Standard Bank next to
Church Square 

AGENDA 

National Conference/Congress

RE: [PAYCO] INVITATION TO PAC NATIONAL CAUCUS - CONFERENCE/CONGRESS

2014-09-04 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
Izwe Lethu M'AFrika Masoga

 

Kindly share with us the purpose and objective of this National Caucus and
the agenda, such that we can sensitise comrades about it. Is this the first
meeting or not, if there was another meeting kindly share the minutes or
outcomes. We will form part on any initiative openly and sincerely organised
to resolve the paralyses PAC finds itself.  

 

Reality is that the centre has collapsed and constitutionally non-existing,
it is for PAC branches and members to explore constructive and principled
means to re-organise and salvage the PAC!

 

Shango lashu

Nkrumah

 

From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
mphi...@gmail.com
Sent: 04 September 2014 12:10 PM
To: payco@googlegroups.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za;
ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com;
richardma...@yahoo.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net;
ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; 'Tumediso Modise';
tyamza...@yahoo.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za; isaa...@diplomat-global.com;
i...@bataufc.com; lea...@hotmail.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com;
p...@vodamail.co.za; Simphiwe Nofuma; pasmapresid...@gmail.com;
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com;
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za;
smollzo...@gmail.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; Sbusiso Xaba;
dud...@webmail.co.za; digashuma...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org;
goqwana.san...@gmail.com
Cc: 'Bosole Chidi'
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] INVITATION TO PAC NATIONAL CAUCUS - CONFERENCE/CONGRESS

 


Thank you Mo Afrika Mashilo 

PAC is in a state that is unacceptable and for that reason it is caucuses of
this magnitude that will ensure that we chat way forward and March Forward. 

It is a fact that we can never see things the same way and that in itself
does not necessarily mean that if Africanists disagree on certain positions
then they are Factions. 

My observation is that there are too many Genius around the Bargaining
Table which hamper progress in the PAC. 

Personalities and hatred deeply put the PAC in the state it find itself
today. I appreciate the fact that MaAfrika remain to be members of the PAC
though is the PAC they don't want, hence the Caucus is attempting to find
the PAC people wants. 

Cde Ray it does not assist the PAC to have people talking in Corridors and
Social networks and dismiss any attempt made to create a platform where
people can air their views and put their positions across so that the
strongest Argument Wins.

Hence tis invitation is open to all PAC members not single - out any
grouping, click or Faction. The PAC have no Luxury to correct this
situation, for us to have Provincial Bossberaads is a brilliant Idea, but we
need the Center to cater for operational needs of the party while in the
process of healing and uniting forces. 

SSS 

Sent from my BlackBerryR wireless device

  _  

From: Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com 

Sender: payco@googlegroups.com 

Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 10:36:44 +0200

To: payco@googlegroups.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za;
ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com;
richardma...@yahoo.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net;
ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; 'Tumediso
Modise'tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com;
tnta...@webmail.co.za; isaa...@diplomat-global.com; i...@bataufc.com;
lea...@hotmail.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; p...@vodamail.co.za;
'Simphiwe Nofuma'paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; pasmapresid...@gmail.com;
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com;
pac.nc...@gmail.com; phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za;
pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; smollzo...@gmail.com;
sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 'Sbusiso Xaba'sbusiso.x...@gmail.com;
dud...@webmail.co.za; digashuma...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org;
goqwana.san...@gmail.com; 'Tumi Modise 2'modisetumed...@gmail.com;
'Sonia Masemola'masemola...@gmail.com; 'Pac Albert
Mokoena'mokoen...@workmail.co.za; 'K Maunnatlala'patric...@ncp.co.za;
'Matome'mselapi...@yahoo.co.za; 'Katlego
Lekgoathi'katlegodor...@gmail.com; hote...@iburst.co.za;
hoteli...@ibursp.co.za

ReplyTo: payco@googlegroups.com 

Cc: 'Bosole Chidi'bosolech...@yahoo.com

Subject: RE: [PAYCO] INVITATION TO PAC NATIONAL CAUCUS - CONFERENCE/CONGRESS

 

M'Afrika Masoga

 

Why can't focus be directed towards organising inclusive Gauteng provincial
meeting to consider ways and means to unite and rebuild PAC than national
caucuses which ends up deepening internal party feuding and deepening
factionalism? I strongly believe we should devote our energies to mobilise
and organise all branches and members into an inclusive provincial meetings!


 

The September Bloemfontein National Conference will become another waste of
time in the same vein Birchwood August 2013 Conference is and will worsen
the crisis facing the PAC! 2014 May national elections are a clear indicator
that as PAC members and branches we cannot pretend

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-04 Thread 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
...@gmail.com, 
mbind...@gmail.com, mrfihl...@gmail.com, mphah...@eskom.co.za, 
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com, mphothobej...@yahoo.com, mokoen...@workmail.co.za, 
moshemahlom...@gmail.com, monyanepin...@gmail.com, mop...@pac.org.za, 
mnd...@yahoo.com, po...@yahoo.com, celenjabulo...@gmail.com, 
njabulo.m...@gmail.com, vu...@telkomsa.net, dumisani...@gmail.com 
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference 


Morning Cde. Raymond 
  
I think it is now clear that up and above the feuding NEC you have an 
individual in the form of an S.G who thinks he wilds a wisdom above all 
others. By the way you are talking about a so called board room or office 
bound NEC which operates somewhere in a building in Joburg which can hardly 
pull one revolutionary programme. In terms of the history of the PAC you 
maybe sitting with an SG who has performed worse than any other S.G at any 
given.  
  
The SG went to several media houses claiming the PAC is ready to govern and 
the elections results suggest something else. Any revolutionary leader must 
be a person whom when time calls for serious introspection and checks and 
balances he does so to assist the party not his/her self righteousness 
attitude/mentality. Relying only on a conference which will have bussed and 
ghost branches wont assist the party in anyway. Take the Birchwood Conference 
I am told there were bussed delegates who never participated in discussions 
and some were drinking alcohol as they were there for an outing. 
  
 For me arguing endlessly with this so called NEC powers it is a waste of 
 time and the lesser we talk about this SG the better it is. The truth is 
 since the Butterworth Congress the PAC was never in politics and hence its 
 silence in the political activities of the country. I don't blame the SG 
 because if people who work with him attend meetings to discuss people and 
 suspensions and expulsions and then call that progress in the party tough 
 luck for PAC members and its future. Personally I hate people who like 
 claiming things that don't exist and for me to suggest the party has 
 developed capacity to operate behind enemy lines is cheap and weak 
 revolutionary theory to say the least. 
  
There is only one lesson we can draw from this post Butterworth NEC and that 
is when we approach the leadership issue we must all be sober and be serious 
about it. I think the reason why the PAC was successful from its inception it 
was mainly due to the facts I raised above and they elected office President 
and SG and put the leadership which had what it takes to build a 
revolutionary party. It is more than 24 months since we had an NEC but al  
what we are consuming is a blame game. I have enough years in PAC to simply 
see what works and what wont work. You can have Cde Moloto for the next 100 
years there as an SG all you are going to have is cheap manipulation, 
disorder, weekly suspensions and poor performance of PAC at all levels of 
party operations. In short it does not matter how right he says things will 
remain the same. 
  
Izwe Lethu! 
  
  
  


 
On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 5:10 PM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi 
nrkgag...@gmail.com wrote:



Izwe lethu M'Afrika

Comrade Linda, the attached documents, once more confirms the question you 
raised. But the task facing all of us, it is to salvage the PAC from complete 
obliteration waged by the feuding 'NEC'. 

Founding leaders of PAC are turning in their graves!

Shango lashu
Nkrumah 


-- Forwarded message --
From: Admin @ Pac ad...@pac.org.za
Date: 02 Sep 2014 3:44 PM
Subject: attack on party annual conference
To: Admin @ Pac ad...@pac.org.za, wgaj...@gmail.com,  
rammymfulw...@gmail.com, richardma...@yahoo.com,  
river.mla...@telkomsa.net, ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za,  
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com, tumimod...@hotmail.co.za,  
tyamza...@yahoo.com, tnta...@webmail.co.za, isaa...@diplomat-global.com, 
i...@bataufc.com, lea...@hotmail.com, phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com,  
p...@vodamail.co.za, Cape paccapeme...@webmail.co.za,  
pasmapresid...@gmail.com, pactshwanereg...@gmail.com,  
pacmogalec...@gmail.com, pac.nc...@gmail.com,  
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za, pacaza...@webmail.co.za, Narius Moloto  
s...@pac.org.za, smollzo...@gmail.com, sndam...@pac-cape.org.za,  
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com, dud...@webmail.co.za, digashuma...@gmail.com, 
Delano Maloney dmalo...@klerksdorp.org, goqwana.san...@gmail.com,  
hlubi.so...@gmail.com, joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com, jntab...@gmail.com, 
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com, Lekgathi
 0825164...@vodamail.co.za,  lucasmmol...@gmail.com, znyam...@gmail.com, 
billiard.s...@gmail.com,  bulanng...@gmail.com, bennet_j...@yahoo.com, 
bulelanim1718  bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com, ndhlo...@pac.org.za,  
nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com, nnyq...@gmail.com, Michael Muendane  
m...@soultalk.co.za, mapulankoan...@gmail.com, mvakalijust...@gmail.com, 
mbind...@gmail.com, mrfihl...@gmail.com, Mohlomphegi Mphahlele  
mphah...@eskom.co.za, malingeplaat...@yahoo.com

Re: [PAYCO] INVITATION TO PAC NATIONAL CAUCUS - CONFERENCE/CONGRESS

2014-09-04 Thread 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
Dear Cdes.
 
There is no point to attend a national caucus where people speak to themselves 
by entrenching wrong doings. When some of us we comradely and maturely 
approached Cde Letlapa Mphahlele and Cde Mphethi not to stand for Presidency 
little did  we know that amateurish behaviours will resurface wherein comrades 
endorses incorrect means to remove a sitting president. Some of us believe that 
no matter how much we can differ with cdes there is no way we can be used and 
abused by anyone against those we differ with. 
 
What are expected to do as members and structures when we receive confusing 
correspondence and letters from same NEC leaders worse a President and 
Secretary. That conference or congress can go on but for us is neither there no 
there but a waste of time. We will not be used by failures to cover their own 
mess using other opportunists. All those who were elected at the Butterworth 
Congress must all be there to account there is half clever who should stand 
before us and present a report of courts, expulsions, suspensions and 
constitutional tempering under the disguise of amendments cooked from top down 
approach. Those attending the  individually organised Bloemfontein conference 
can do so pleasing that organiser.
 
Cde Raymond is right that will be a waste of time because what that person want 
is an attendance register which will be used if future court cases.
 
Izwe Lethu
 
  


On Thursday, September 4, 2014 12:09 PM, mphi...@gmail.com 
mphi...@gmail.com wrote:
  



Thank you Mo Afrika Mashilo 

PAC is in a state that is unacceptable and for that reason it is caucuses of 
this magnitude that will ensure that we chat way forward and March Forward. 

It is a fact that we can never see things the same way and that in itself does 
not necessarily mean that if Africanists disagree on certain positions then 
they are Factions. 

My observation is that there are too many Genius around the Bargaining Table 
which hamper progress in the PAC. 

Personalities and hatred deeply put the PAC in the state it find itself today. 
I appreciate the fact that MaAfrika remain to be members of the PAC though is 
the PAC they don't want, hence the Caucus is attempting to find the PAC people 
wants. 

Cde Ray it does not assist the PAC to have people talking in Corridors
 and Social networks and dismiss any attempt made to create a platform where 
people can air their views and put their positions across so that the strongest 
Argument Wins.

Hence tis invitation is open to all PAC members not single - out any grouping, 
click or Faction. The PAC have no Luxury to correct this situation, for us to 
have Provincial Bossberaads is a brilliant Idea, but we need the Center to 
cater for operational needs of the party while in the process of healing and 
uniting forces. 

SSS 
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
From:  Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com 
Sender:  payco@googlegroups.com 
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 10:36:44 +0200
To: payco@googlegroups.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za; 
ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; 
richardma...@yahoo.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net; 
ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; 'Tumediso 
Modise'tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; 
tnta...@webmail.co.za; isaa...@diplomat-global.com; i...@bataufc.com; 
lea...@hotmail.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
'Simphiwe Nofuma'paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; 
smollzo...@gmail.com; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za; 'Sbusiso 
Xaba'sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; dud...@webmail.co.za; 
digashuma...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; 
goqwana.san...@gmail.com; 'Tumi Modise 2'modisetumed...@gmail.com; 'Sonia
 Masemola'masemola...@gmail.com; 'Pac Albert 
Mokoena'mokoen...@workmail.co.za; 'K Maunnatlala'patric...@ncp.co.za; 
'Matome'mselapi...@yahoo.co.za; 'Katlego Lekgoathi'katlegodor...@gmail.com; 
hote...@iburst.co.za; hoteli...@ibursp.co.za
ReplyTo:  payco@googlegroups.com 
Cc: 'Bosole Chidi'bosolech...@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [PAYCO] INVITATION TO PAC  NATIONAL CAUCUS - CONFERENCE/CONGRESS

M’Afrika Masoga
 
Why can’t focus be directed towards organising inclusive Gauteng provincial 
meeting to consider ways and means to unite and rebuild PAC than national 
caucuses which ends up deepening internal party feuding and deepening 
factionalism? I strongly believe we should devote our energies to mobilise and 
organise all branches and members into an inclusive provincial meetings! 
 
The September Bloemfontein National Conference will become another waste of 
time in the same vein Birchwood August 2013 Conference is and will worsen the 
crisis facing the PAC! 2014 May national elections are a clear indicator that 
as PAC members and branches we cannot pretend that all is rosy within the PAC!
 
Shango

RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-04 Thread Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi
M'Afrika 

 

I fully agree with M'Afrika Kutie the enemies of PAC are more happier given
the rate of disintegration of PAC. This disintegration must be arrested late
as it might be! At a principled level, I disagree with the notion that PAC
branches and members are fighting Cde Moloto for such a notion create an
illusion that all is well in the PAC. Constitutionally PAC NEC has
disintegrated and cannot execute any constitutional roles without being
questioned, there are three NEC groupings claiming legitimacy. As PAC we are
facing parallel structures across the country including in APLAMVA and
PAYCO!  

 

PAC NEC elected at Butterworth Congress in July 2012 no longer constitutes a
quorum for it has split into three unequal and  non-quorating parts!
According to e-mails and letters we saw since 11 May 2013, Cde Letlapa has
been suspended and expelled, Cde Moloto has been suspended and expelled (By
Cde Letlapa and now recently by acting President Mpethi), and allegedly Cde
Mpethi has also being suspended! There are other NEC members equally
suspended. So comrades in the NEC have resorted to suspending and expelling
each other, while refusing to account to PAC branches and members at an
inclusive national conference.

 

There is no attack on the party's annual conference but an attack to
factional feuding and weakening of the PAC!

 

This feuding which weakens the PAC must be arrested, and only an inclusive
national conference can take the PAC towards a lasting political and
organisational solution.

 

Shango lashu

 

Nkrumah 

From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: 04 September 2014 12:42 PM
To: Kutie Thondlana; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za
Cc: mrfihla08; payco@googlegroups.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za;
ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com;
richardma...@yahoo.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net;
ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com;
tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za;
isaa...@diplomat-global.com; i...@bataufc.com; lea...@hotmail.com;
phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; paccapeme...@webmail.co.za;
pasmapresid...@gmail.com; pactshwanereg...@gmail.com;
pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com; phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za;
pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; smollzo...@gmail.com;
sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; dud...@webmail.co.za; digashuma...@gmail.com;
dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; hlubi.so...@gmail.com;
joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com; L Lekgwathi;
lucasmmol...@gmail.com; znyam...@gmail.com; billiard.s...@gmail.com;
bulanng...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com;
ndhlo...@pac.org.za; Nakaphala Bauba; nnyq...@gmail.com;
m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com; mvakalijust...@gmail.com;
mbind...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za; malingeplaat...@yahoo.com;
mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za; moshemahlom...@gmail.com;
monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za; mnd...@yahoo.com;
po...@yahoo.com; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; njabulo.m...@gmail.com;
vu...@telkomsa.net; dumisani...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

 

Cde Kutie

 

It is simple the enemies of the PAC are simply those who are using members
for their individual purposes and to some extend in the interest of the
people they serve out there. Let me assure you pretending there is no  need
to have an elected NEC organising a conference and rather preferring an
individual to do so and who think he is everything can only be accepted by
you and others. Leaders who grew in this party and with long service should
have known by now that whatever they trying to in May 11 last will catch up
with them and those who thought they will benefit out of that fiasco they
can rest a little more is to be seen.

 

 

On Thursday, September 4, 2014 11:06 AM, Kutie Thondlana
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com wrote:

 

MaAfrika,

 

An All Inclusive Consultative Conference may just be our answer. We need a
platform to address all the concerns mentioned in circulating emails and
come up with a plan that will assist in rebuilding the PAC from then on. I'm
sure our enemies operating within the party to destroy PAC are already
celebrating success, let us not allow them that glory. We must prevent PAC
from being made the ruling party Project.  PAC must never die!

 

 

Izwe Lethu!

Kutie

On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 10:38 AM, sndam...@pac-cape.org.za wrote:

All these years fighting  each other but there is no solution . . . what's
wrong with us - line in Lucky Dube's song

The solution is you comrades. . . .lets get into our structures and bring
that change. It is expected that there will be those who will try to
maintain the current chaos by all means. Folding arms therefore won't help,
to complain either so only active engagement to pursue a collective
principle will put us in a better place as an organization.

 

iAfrika

 

iAfrika

 

 

On 2014-09

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-04 Thread Tongogara Ndima
Comrade Zondo

Your statement makes sense but you are dishonest. Cde Moloto has been
paying for yourself and Eddie Mfulwane to attend NEC meetings and support
his positions as far back as 11 May 2013. Your PAYCO is not driving any PAC
Programmes among the youths in the country buts has been a voting cattle
for Moloto NEC Grouping. Some of your youths members like Eddie Mfulwane,
Justice Digashu and others are paid by Moloto to do what Moloto seeks
from PAYCO. PYACO has no provincial, regional structures across the country
with only handful few branches.

We know radical and revolutionary AZANYU

As PAYCO you have no youth programmes to mobilise and challenge the
dominance of the ANCYL, DA Youth Organisation is doing far much better.
Remember, PASMA collapsed under your leadership with Eddie Mfulwane, now
PAYCO will be written off! PAC with all its mistakes and weaknesses, we
used to pride ourselves about militant and revolutionary AZANYU, PASO and
PASMA leadership and membership which was ideologically sound and
politically sharp but today PAYCO has become a shame.

You are leading PAYCO and a small pocket size trade union? All this is just
a money making scheme, typical of lumpens.

Withdraw yourself from being scrop-lappie of some moneyed people in PAC and
focus on uniting and building PAYCO. Organise meetings and pursued Mpasha
Pitso. Your Madadeni congress mandated that end of 2013 PAYCO must have
an youth conference remain unfulfilled!

PAC did not have youth during national elections because PAYCO only exists
to vote during and at Moloto NEC meetings.

Izwe lethu
Ndima


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 M’Afrika



 I fully agree with M’Afrika Kutie the enemies of PAC are more happier
 given the rate of disintegration of PAC. This disintegration must be
 arrested late as it might be! At a principled level, I disagree with the
 notion that PAC branches and members are fighting Cde Moloto for such a
 notion create an illusion that all is well in the PAC. Constitutionally PAC
 NEC has disintegrated and cannot execute any constitutional roles without
 being questioned, there are three NEC groupings claiming legitimacy. As PAC
 we are facing parallel structures across the country including in APLAMVA
 and PAYCO!



 PAC NEC elected at Butterworth Congress in July 2012 no longer constitutes
 a quorum for it has split into three unequal and  non-quorating parts!
 According to e-mails and letters we saw since 11 May 2013, Cde Letlapa has
 been suspended and expelled, Cde Moloto has been suspended and expelled (By
 Cde Letlapa and now recently by acting President Mpethi), and allegedly Cde
 Mpethi has also being suspended! There are other NEC members equally
 suspended. So comrades in the NEC have resorted to suspending and expelling
 each other, while refusing to account to PAC branches and members at an
 inclusive national conference.



 There is no attack on the party’s annual conference but an attack to
 factional feuding and weakening of the PAC!



 This feuding which weakens the PAC must be arrested, and only an inclusive
 national conference can take the PAC towards a lasting political and
 organisational solution.



 Shango lashu



 Nkrumah

 *From:* payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com]
 *Sent:* 04 September 2014 12:42 PM
 *To:* Kutie Thondlana; sndam...@pac-cape.org.za
 *Cc:* mrfihla08; payco@googlegroups.com; linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za;
 ad...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com;
 richardma...@yahoo.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net;
 ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; takalaniligeg...@gmail.com;
 tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; tnta...@webmail.co.za;
 isaa...@diplomat-global.com; i...@bataufc.com; lea...@hotmail.com;
 phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; paccapeme...@webmail.co.za;
 pasmapresid...@gmail.com; pactshwanereg...@gmail.com;
 pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com; phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za;
 pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; smollzo...@gmail.com;
 sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; dud...@webmail.co.za; digashuma...@gmail.com;
 dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; hlubi.so...@gmail.com;
 joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com; L Lekgwathi;
 lucasmmol...@gmail.com; znyam...@gmail.com; billiard.s...@gmail.com;
 bulanng...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com; bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com;
 ndhlo...@pac.org.za; Nakaphala Bauba; nnyq...@gmail.com;
 m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com; mvakalijust...@gmail.com;
 mbind...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za; malingeplaat...@yahoo.com;
 mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za;
 moshemahlom...@gmail.com; monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za;
 mnd...@yahoo.com; po...@yahoo.com; celenjabulo...@gmail.com;
 njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; dumisani...@gmail.com

 *Subject:* Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference



 Cde Kutie



 It is simple the enemies of the PAC

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-04 Thread 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
...@pac.org.za; wgaj...@gmail.com; rammymfulw...@gmail.com; 
richardma...@yahoo.com; river.mla...@telkomsa.net; ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za; 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com; tumimod...@hotmail.co.za; tyamza...@yahoo.com; 
tnta...@webmail.co.za; isaa...@diplomat-global.com; i...@bataufc.com; 
lea...@hotmail.com; phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com; p...@vodamail.co.za; 
paccapeme...@webmail.co.za; pasmapresid...@gmail.com; 
pactshwanereg...@gmail.com; pacmogalec...@gmail.com; pac.nc...@gmail.com; 
phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za; pacaza...@webmail.co.za; s...@pac.org.za; 
smollzo...@gmail.com; sbusiso.x...@gmail.com; dud...@webmail.co.za; 
digashuma...@gmail.com; dmalo...@klerksdorp.org; goqwana.san...@gmail.com; 
hlubi.so...@gmail.com; joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com; L 
Lekgwathi; lucasmmol...@gmail.com; znyam...@gmail.com; billiard.s...@gmail.com; 
bulanng...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com;
 bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; ndhlo...@pac.org.za; Nakaphala Bauba; 
nnyq...@gmail.com; m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com; 
mvakalijust...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za; 
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za; 
moshemahlom...@gmail.com; monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za; 
mnd...@yahoo.com; po...@yahoo.com; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; 
njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; dumisani...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference
 
Cde Kutie
 
It is simple the enemies of the PAC are simply those who are using members for 
their individual purposes and to some extend in the interest of the people they 
serve out there. Let me assure you pretending there is no  need to have an 
elected NEC organising a conference and rather preferring an individual to do 
so and who think he is everything can only be accepted by you and others. 
Leaders who grew in this party and with long service should have known by now 
that whatever they trying to in May 11 last will catch up with them and those 
who thought they will benefit out of that fiasco they can rest a little more is 
to be seen.
 
 
On Thursday, September 4, 2014 11:06 AM, Kutie Thondlana 
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com wrote:
 
MaAfrika,
 
An All Inclusive Consultative Conference may just be our answer. We need a 
platform to address all the concerns mentioned in circulating emails and come 
up with a plan that will assist in rebuilding the PAC from then on. I'm sure 
our enemies operating within the party to destroy PAC are already celebrating 
success, let us not allow them that glory. We must prevent PAC from being made 
the ruling party Project.  PAC must never die!
 
 
Izwe Lethu!
Kutie
On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 10:38 AM, sndam...@pac-cape.org.za wrote:
All these years fighting  each other but there is no solution . . . what's 
wrong with us - line in Lucky Dube's song
The solution is you comrades. . . .lets get into our structures and bring that 
change. It is expected that there will be those who will try to maintain the 
current chaos by all means. Folding arms therefore won't help, to complain 
either so only active engagement to pursue a collective principle will put us 
in a better place as an organization.
 
iAfrika
 
iAfrika
 
 
On 2014-09-04 10:14, mrfihla08 wrote:
Ma Afrika Izwe Lethu
 
I note that name calling and castigation of characters has become such a 
profession in the PAC. What surprises me, is that the very individuals such as 
Narius Moloto were paraded by some of us who are so vocal today against him. 
Narius was appointed by Mphahlele as party builder and Mphahlele's faction was 
fully behind him. He was subsequently elected at the Gcuwa circus as Secretary 
General. Those who were part of the Gcuwa circus must therefore take the blame 
for anything that they are opposing in Moloto today. 
 
Now, At what point ma Afrika are we going to talk about what can unite us 
instead of all this mud slinging and divisive language? We all know that 
instead of campaigning during the past elections, we were busy promoting our 
factional interests, taking each other to court, making statements in the 
media that decampaigned the PAC, and some of us even failed to vote. Today 
however we are so good at criticising instead of collectively accepting blame. 
Some of us who are talking today were part of Mphahlele's faction that created 
divisive parallel structures and expelled some of us from the PAC. Please ma 
Afrika let us stop with this childish and reactionary behavior that does not 
take us anywhere. All we need now is genuine solutions to the PAC problems. 
Factional statements and campaigns will not take us anywhere. For now, Moloto 
remains secretary general of the PAC, all the noises we can make against him 
will not help. The reality also here is that some
 of us are not genuine, we are not fighting Moloto because we have the 
interests of the PAC at heart. We are fighting Moloto because we are pushing 
factional interests. My proposal is that let us identify

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-04 Thread 'Mbuyiselo Kantso' via Pan Africanist Youth Congress
...@gmail.com; joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com; jntab...@gmail.com; L 
Lekgwathi; lucasmmol...@gmail.com; znyam...@gmail.com; 
billiard.s...@gmail.com; bulanng...@gmail.com; bennet_j...@yahoo.com;
 bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com; ndhlo...@pac.org.za; Nakaphala Bauba; 
nnyq...@gmail.com; m...@soultalk.co.za; mapulankoan...@gmail.com; 
mvakalijust...@gmail.com; mbind...@gmail.com; mphah...@eskom.co.za; 
malingeplaat...@yahoo.com; mphothobej...@yahoo.com; mokoen...@workmail.co.za; 
moshemahlom...@gmail.com; monyanepin...@gmail.com; mop...@pac.org.za; 
mnd...@yahoo.com; po...@yahoo.com; celenjabulo...@gmail.com; 
njabulo.m...@gmail.com; vu...@telkomsa.net; dumisani...@gmail.com

Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference
 
Cde Kutie
  
It is simple the enemies of the PAC are simply those who are using members for 
their individual purposes and to some extend in the interest of the people 
they serve out there. Let me assure you pretending there is no  need to have 
an elected NEC organising a conference and rather preferring an individual to 
do so and who think he is everything can only be accepted by you and others. 
Leaders who grew in this party and with long service should have known by now 
that whatever they trying to in May 11 last will catch up with them and those 
who thought they will benefit out of that fiasco they can rest a little more 
is to be seen. 
 
  
On Thursday, September 4, 2014 11:06 AM, Kutie Thondlana 
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com wrote: 
 
MaAfrika,
  
An All Inclusive Consultative Conference may just be our answer. We need a 
platform to address all the concerns mentioned in circulating emails and come 
up with a plan that will assist in rebuilding the PAC from then on. I'm sure 
our enemies operating within the party to destroy PAC are already celebrating 
success, let us not allow them that glory. We must prevent PAC from being made 
the ruling party Project.  PAC must never die! 
 
 
Izwe Lethu! 
Kutie
On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 10:38 AM, sndam...@pac-cape.org.za wrote: 
All these years fighting  each other but there is no solution . . . what's 
wrong with us - line in Lucky Dube's song 
The solution is you comrades. . . .lets get into our structures and bring that 
change. It is expected that there will be those who will try to maintain the 
current chaos by all means. Folding arms therefore won't help, to complain 
either so only active engagement to pursue a collective principle will put us 
in a better place as an organization. 
 
iAfrika
  
iAfrika
 
  
On 2014-09-04 10:14, mrfihla08 wrote:
Ma Afrika Izwe Lethu
 
I note that name calling and castigation of characters has become such a 
profession in the PAC. What surprises me, is that the very individuals such 
as Narius Moloto were paraded by some of us who are so vocal today against 
him. Narius was appointed by Mphahlele as party builder and Mphahlele's 
faction was fully behind him. He was subsequently elected at the Gcuwa circus 
as Secretary General. Those who were part of the Gcuwa circus must therefore 
take the blame for anything that they are opposing in Moloto today.  
 
Now, At what point ma Afrika are we going to talk about what can unite us 
instead of all this mud slinging and divisive language? We all know that 
instead of campaigning during the past elections, we were busy promoting our 
factional interests, taking each other to court, making statements in the 
media that decampaigned the PAC, and some of us even failed to vote. Today 
however we are so good at criticising instead of collectively accepting 
blame. Some of us who are talking today were part of Mphahlele's faction that 
created divisive parallel structures and expelled some of us from the PAC. 
Please ma Afrika let us stop with this childish and reactionary behavior that 
does not take us anywhere. All we need now is genuine solutions to the PAC 
problems. Factional statements and campaigns will not take us anywhere. For 
now, Moloto remains secretary general of the PAC, all the noises we can make 
against him will not help. The reality also here is that some
 of us are not genuine, we are not fighting Moloto because we have the 
interests of the PAC at heart. We are fighting Moloto because we are pushing 
factional interests. My proposal is that let us identify those aspects that can 
help us to unite the PAC instead of engaging in useless muddling.  
 
Fihla
  
 
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
 


 Original message 
From: Mbuyiselo Kantso 
Date:04/09/2014 08:41 (GMT+02:00) 
To: payco@googlegroups.com, linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za, ad...@pac.org.za, 
wgaj...@gmail.com, rammymfulw...@gmail.com, richardma...@yahoo.com, 
river.mla...@telkomsa.net, ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za, 
takalaniligeg...@gmail.com, tumimod...@hotmail.co.za, tyamza...@yahoo.com, 
tnta...@webmail.co.za, isaa...@diplomat-global.com, i...@bataufc.com, 
lea...@hotmail.com, phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com, p...@vodamail.co.za, 
paccapeme...@webmail.co.za

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-04 Thread chargein461
Comrades,
 
I have been following your discussions attentively. Everyone is concerned even 
us who are outside PAC. We are what we are because of teaching and skills 
invested to us by PAC. We are expected to celebrate when PAC is in deep crisis 
and claim to vindicated. Instead, we are deeply hurt when people are making  
PAC a laughing stock. President Zuma offended me when said on live television, 
Where is PAC? and then laughed. We know the enemies of African people are 
celebrating for job well done. Continued divisions works in their favour.

Comrades, action speaks more than words. It is not easy to rescue PAC without 
extraordinary means. We must jointly rational thinking more than emotions. 
Blame game will take us to nowhere. Fighting each other did not take us 
anywhere. I believe a well thought roadmap is the only answer to ''Rebuild the 
Broken Walls of Pan Africanism in South Africa. The time is now or never! The 
only way to draw up this roadmap as I see it is to convene a Mammelodi-type of 
Convention  of all Pan Africanists, not conference or caucus. That is my 
suggestion. I may be wrong. I see no other avenue. To me, it is only in a 
convention where we can do thorough introspection without factions competing 
for leadershp position. Election of  NEC, we have seen, will take PAC nowhere 
but further division. That is my oinion! It's not gospel truth but just a 
suggestion in positive direction. 

Some people will ask why I am concerned about  PAC matters? My answer is, I 
took a conscious decision to join PAC of 1959 and grew up in PAC because I 
believe it was the only vehicle for liberation in this country. That is why we 
fought so hard for PAM to adopt PAC Basic Documents because we still regard 
ourselves as members of PAC of Sobukwe in self-imposed exile in response to PAC 
crisis. Those who feel threatened by unity will disagree with me for their own 
reasons. It's their choice.

Comrades, whether we like it or not, PAM outside there is seen as PAC in 
disguise. We cant the voters, rivals  and enemies. When they see comrade 
Makwetu in PAM they all say there is PAC. It's fact! 

Izwe Lethu!


 --
Sent from my Nokia phone

--Original message--
From: Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com
To: payco@googlegroups.com,Kutie Thondlana 
kutie.thondl...@gmail.com,sndam...@pac-cape.org.za
Cc: mrfihla08 
mrfihl...@gmail.com,linda.ndeb...@newcastle.gov.za,ad...@pac.org.za,wgaj...@gmail.com,rammymfulw...@gmail.com,richardma...@yahoo.com,river.mla...@telkomsa.net,ramotw...@maruleng.gov.za,takalaniligeg...@gmail.com,tumimod...@hotmail.co.za,tyamza...@yahoo.com,tnta...@webmail.co.za,isaa...@diplomat-global.com,i...@bataufc.com,lea...@hotmail.com,phillipdhlam...@yahoo.com,p...@vodamail.co.za,paccapeme...@webmail.co.za,pasmapresid...@gmail.com,pactshwanereg...@gmail.com,pacmogalec...@gmail.com,pac.nc...@gmail.com,phumzilenom...@hotmail.co.za,pacaza...@webmail.co.za,s...@pac.org.za,smollzo...@gmail.com,sbusiso.x...@gmail.com,dud...@webmail.co.za,digashuma...@gmail.com,dmalo...@klerksdorp.org,goqwana.san...@gmail.com,hlubi.so...@gmail.com,joseph.maqhek...@sasol.com,jntab...@gmail.com,L
 Lekgwathi 
0825164...@vodamail.co.za,lucasmmol...@gmail.com,znyam...@gmail.com,billiard.s...@gmail.com,bulanng...@gmail.com,bennet_j...@yahoo.com,bulelanim1...@nokiamail.com,ndhlo...@pac.org.za,Nakaphala
 Bauba 
nakaphala.ba...@gmail.com,nnyq...@gmail.com,m...@soultalk.co.za,mapulankoan...@gmail.com,mvakalijust...@gmail.com,mbind...@gmail.com,mphah...@eskom.co.za,malingeplaat...@yahoo.com,mphothobej...@yahoo.com,mokoen...@workmail.co.za,moshemahlom...@gmail.com,monyanepin...@gmail.com,mop...@pac.org.za,mnd...@yahoo.com,po...@yahoo.com,celenjabulo...@gmail.com,njabulo.m...@gmail.com,vu...@telkomsa.net,dumisani...@gmail.com
Date: Thursday, September 4, 2014 1:06:19 PM GMT+0200
Subject: RE: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

M'Afrika 

 

I fully agree with M'Afrika Kutie the enemies of PAC are more happier given
the rate of disintegration of PAC. This disintegration must be arrested late
as it might be! At a principled level, I disagree with the notion that PAC
branches and members are fighting Cde Moloto for such a notion create an
illusion that all is well in the PAC. Constitutionally PAC NEC has
disintegrated and cannot execute any constitutional roles without being
questioned, there are three NEC groupings claiming legitimacy. As PAC we are
facing parallel structures across the country including in APLAMVA and
PAYCO!  

 

PAC NEC elected at Butterworth Congress in July 2012 no longer constitutes a
quorum for it has split into three unequal and  non-quorating parts!
According to e-mails and letters we saw since 11 May 2013, Cde Letlapa has
been suspended and expelled, Cde Moloto has been suspended and expelled (By
Cde Letlapa and now recently by acting President Mpethi), and allegedly Cde
Mpethi has also being suspended! There are other NEC members equally
suspended. So

Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

2014-09-04 Thread Linda Ndebele
 .Mahlanguvemahla...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party annual conference

Comrade Zondo

Your statement makes sense but you are dishonest. Cde Moloto has been
paying for yourself and Eddie Mfulwane to attend NEC meetings and support
his positions as far back as 11 May 2013. Your PAYCO is not driving any PAC
Programmes among the youths in the country buts has been a voting cattle
for Moloto NEC Grouping. Some of your youths members like Eddie Mfulwane,
Justice Digashu and others are paid by Moloto to do what Moloto seeks
from PAYCO. PYACO has no provincial, regional structures across the country
with only handful few branches.

We know radical and revolutionary AZANYU

As PAYCO you have no youth programmes to mobilise and challenge the
dominance of the ANCYL, DA Youth Organisation is doing far much better.
Remember, PASMA collapsed under your leadership with Eddie Mfulwane, now
PAYCO will be written off! PAC with all its mistakes and weaknesses, we
used to pride ourselves about militant and revolutionary AZANYU, PASO and
PASMA leadership and membership which was ideologically sound and
politically sharp but today PAYCO has become a shame.

You are leading PAYCO and a small pocket size trade union? All this is just
a money making scheme, typical of lumpens.

Withdraw yourself from being scrop-lappie of some moneyed people in PAC and
focus on uniting and building PAYCO. Organise meetings and pursued Mpasha
Pitso. Your Madadeni congress mandated that end of 2013 PAYCO must have
an youth conference remain unfulfilled!

PAC did not have youth during national elections because PAYCO only exists
to vote during and at Moloto NEC meetings.

Izwe lethu
Ndima


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi nrkgag...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 M’Afrika



 I fully agree with M’Afrika Kutie the enemies of PAC are more happier
 given the rate of disintegration of PAC. This disintegration must be
 arrested late as it might be! At a principled level, I disagree with the
 notion that PAC branches and members are fighting Cde Moloto for such a
 notion create an illusion that all is well in the PAC. Constitutionally PAC
 NEC has disintegrated and cannot execute any constitutional roles without
 being questioned, there are three NEC groupings claiming legitimacy. As PAC
 we are facing parallel structures across the country including in APLAMVA
 and PAYCO!



 PAC NEC elected at Butterworth Congress in July 2012 no longer constitutes
 a quorum for it has split into three unequal and  non-quorating parts!
 According to e-mails and letters we saw since 11 May 2013, Cde Letlapa has
 been suspended and expelled, Cde Moloto has been suspended and expelled (By
 Cde Letlapa and now recently by acting President Mpethi), and allegedly Cde
 Mpethi has also being suspended! There are other NEC members equally
 suspended. So comrades in the NEC have resorted to suspending and expelling
 each other, while refusing to account to PAC branches and members at an
 inclusive national conference.



 There is no attack on the party’s annual conference but an attack to
 factional feuding and weakening of the PAC!



 This feuding which weakens the PAC must be arrested, and only an inclusive
 national conference can take the PAC towards a lasting political and
 organisational solution.



 Shango lashu



 Nkrumah

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 *Subject:* Re: [PAYCO] FW: attack on party

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