Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-08 Thread Frank Barknecht
Hallo,
Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

 I think it would be possible to make a library that treated every  
 message with more than one element as a list.  It would be a library of 
 pack, unpack, prepend, append, route, etc.  

Like [list append], [list prepend], [list split], [list length], ...? :)

Note that none of these support meta-messages to call custom methods.

Ciao
-- 
 Frank BarknechtDo You RjDj.me?  _ __footils.org__

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Re: [PD] auto 1 loops pix_film (and pix_movie?)

2009-04-08 Thread Marco Donnarumma
Hey..
thanks Derek, yes i've already done what you're saying for my project
C::NTR::L and i have a simple process which give me dynamically the total
frames for each video you load.
I was asking just to know the truth about it  :)
Since i'm using this process a lot i could create a specific example about
this for FLOSS manual. I have this exact process ready in my patches.
ATM i'm terribly busy, but i'll keep it in mind and contribute asap.
best..


Marco



 Hi Marco,

 This has been normal behavior as long as I have been aware of it. That
 doesn't mean that it's not a bug, however ;-)

 If you want looping + scrubbing, a better way would be to build a
 counter with a [mod] object set to the total number of frames in your
 clip, that way you could change the payback speed of the clip and (with
 some adjustments to the counter) skip around in the frames as well as go
 backwards, etc etc. (Nice topic for a FLOSS Manuals tutorial, eh Marius?)

 best!
 Derek

 Marco Donnarumma wrote:
  If i send a [auto 1( to [pix_film] i'm not able anymore to scratch the
  movie sending values to its cold inlet.
  Is this bug connected with the bug you talk about or a normal function
  of the obj.?
 
  besides i noticed pix_movie doens't have this behaviour but is crashing
  on most of the MAC OS i tried with. is this another known issue?


 --
 ::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista :::
 http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista :::
 ---Oblique Strategy # 37:
 Convert a melodic element into a rhythmic element



 --

 Message: 7
 Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:22:36 +0200
 From: marius schebella marius.schebe...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [PD] auto 1 loops pix_film (and pix_movie?)
 To: Derek Holzer de...@umatic.nl
 Cc: pd-list@iem.at
 Message-ID: 49db7dcc.90...@gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

 Derek Holzer wrote:
  Hi Marco,
 
  This has been normal behavior as long as I have been aware of it. That
  doesn't mean that it's not a bug, however ;-)
 
  If you want looping + scrubbing, a better way would be to build a
  counter with a [mod] object set to the total number of frames in your
  clip, that way you could change the payback speed of the clip and (with
  some adjustments to the counter) skip around in the frames as well as go
  backwards, etc etc. (Nice topic for a FLOSS Manuals tutorial, eh Marius?)
 

 something like that is already there, but not as a separate example
 (yet...)
 marius.



-- 
Marco Donnarumma aka The !S.A.D!



Multimedia Artist, Live Performer
Roma, IT

LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net

EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net
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Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-08 Thread IOhannes m zmoelnig

Frank Barknecht wrote:

Hallo,
IOhannes m zmoelnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:

basically because it is like it is.
i guess that if someone (not completely naive; and with an eye on  
language-design and not just tool-design) would go and re-invent the  
wheel, they would make lists just lists. without any special selector  
(just the first element of the list).


But if you drop the current selectors and use the first element of any
list as selector, you just have reinvented selectors, haven't you? ;)


no.
or yes, but selectors need not be symbols, and there would be no special 
selectors, that implictely define the tail of the list.


somehow functional languages like lisp manage to do well with lists and 
dealing the head of a list (selector) in various special ways without 
making the head be different from the elements of the tail.


fgmadsr
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] , , , || etc

2009-04-08 Thread IOhannes m zmoelnig

Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:


On Apr 6, 2009, at 5:26 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:


Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
So a library like 'audiomath' would then have 
audiomath/libaudiomath.pd_linux.  Normally, 
audiomath/libaudiomath.pd_linux would only include shared code, but 
for this case, it would also include the ~ class, etc.


i guess you meant to name it either audiomath/libaudiomath.so (or 
.dll or .dylib) or audiomath/audiomath.pd_linux.


Perhaps audiomath/libaudiomath.so makes the most sense so that it can't 
be loaded by Pd as an objectclass.  But I am guessing.



the question is why you would want to enforce Pd not being able to load 
this library.
at the worst this would allow to mix abstractions, 
single-object-binaries, multi-object-binaries and shared-code dylibs 
into a single bundle (libdir-like directory defining a library)


the only reason i see to create an explicit mechanism to prevent Pd from 
loadinga file as an object-class is a notorious aversion against 
multiboject-binaries.


it's ok for me if someone doesn't like these. it's not ok for me 
declaring war on them.


i admit that currently all C-code is considered shared (that is: 
there is no list2symbol.pd_linux), but once you start blurring the 
two worlds it get's blurry anyhow (and l2s and list2symbol share 
about 100% of their code anyhow)


I like having each objectclass as its own file. 


i know

Then only the code that 
is in use will be loaded into memory.  linking everything together into 
one zexy.pd_linux means the whole thing is loaded into memory, no?


obviously.
but you are surely aware that you cannot avoid people doing this with 
shared libs (that cannot be loaded directly by Pd) as well.


so again, the only reason to make this explicit is because to throw 
feeble hurdles on the path of freedom of a developer.

trying to turn pathos mode off


i would also like to have Pd's loading mechanism modified so that it 
_temporarily_ adds Gem/ to the dylib-searchpath, so one could ship a 
library with external dependencies (without having to link them 
statically)


I am sure you don't mean to do this on GNU/Linux, right?


yes i want to do this on all platforms.


I take it you mean like including a .dylib in the Gem folder? 


but i am not talking about including libGL.so with Gem.

it is really something along the lines of your proposal on 
audiomath/libaudiomath.so.



Kind of 
like what I do with Pd-extended and the Fink dylibs?  That is not a 
great system.  I think due to the limitations of the Mac OS X shared lib 
loading, it would be painful.  Basically, AFAIK, a .dylib in Mac OS X 
must have its path hard-coded in the file.  Otherwise, you have to load 
it manually with a direct call to dlopen.  


but the path can be relative, no?

 I don't remember the details 
in Windows, I think that it already checks . for .dlls by default.


this is how i remember it as well.


fgmasdr
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] mapping: path setting hell

2009-04-08 Thread cyrille henry



Frank Barknecht a écrit :

Hallo,
Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

Yes, there is some absurdity to this conversation.  I guess Frank and I 
have been doing this for so long, its just part of a game we play ;-)


Anyway, I could give the instructions in one step:

1. use Pd-extended ;-)


But that's exactly what I mean: mapping IMO has become promotion material for
pd-extended, but increasingly hard to use for users of newer Pd versions or
alternative distributions.

specially since it's mainly abstraction, i don't understand why we need to 
install it.
i think for this specific lib, any dependency of object outside it's directory 
can be seen as a bug.

c



I don't think many newbies really want to get into the nitty-gritty of  
hand-built Pd installs, but this conversation did make me smooth out the 
installation process.  Before, the 10 steps were for creating a library 
from scratch.  I think its pretty simple considering.  Now, the libraries 
are pre-built in SVN, so you only need to:


1. cd /path/to/your/extra (or wherever you want to install stuff)
2. svn co 
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/trunk/externals/mapping
3. svn co 
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/trunk/abstractions/purepd
4. pd -lib libdir -lib purepd -lib mapping


You cheat a bit here: svn co whereverlibdiris; make libdir, and I don't know,
if help-files in mapping work then - with just your sets they won't. And you
still have the requirement of putting the directories mapping and purepd into a
directory in the pd path like extra, so it's still four paths to set, just
like I wrote in my first mail.

Ciao


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Re: [PD] Multiblob and matrices...

2009-04-08 Thread IOhannes m zmoelnig

Simon Ball wrote:

Thanks for these, that's made it much clearer.

However, in my version of pd (0.40.3-extended - mac, OSX 10.4.11) the
[pix_blobtracker] doesn't seem to load. Is this a subpatch that makes use of
multiblob that I don't have, or is it an object that I am missing?



its an abstraction you should be able to find in the extra/Gem/ 
directory (which you might not be able to open from the finder because 
its within the Pd.app bundle :-()


try creating [Gem/pix_blobtracker] instead.


fgmasdr
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] Multiblob and matrices...

2009-04-08 Thread marius schebella
2009/4/8 Simon Ball sballm...@googlemail.com:
 Thanks for these, that's made it much clearer.

 However, in my version of pd (0.40.3-extended - mac, OSX 10.4.11) the
 [pix_blobtracker] doesn't seem to load. Is this a subpatch that makes use of
 multiblob that I don't have, or is it an object that I am missing?


hi simon,
for pd-extended to create all the objects, I had to add
declare -stdpath extra/Gem (for pix_blobtracker)
declare -stdpath extra/iemmatrix (for all the mtx_ objects)
and create an instance of mtx_mul that gets loaded before mtx_*
I don't know if declare will work with 0.40. check your console to see
if the mtx_ objects get loaded correctly.
marius.

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Re: [PD] Multiblob and matrices...

2009-04-08 Thread IOhannes m zmoelnig

Simon Ball wrote:

I assume that the patches you've provided (greatly appreciated) collate the
data in someway in order for me to be able to unpack it? However, I'm not
sure that I even understand exactly how 'unpack' and 'route' work, which is
obviously a problem!


in this case i would highly recommend to read the documentation of Pd.
(esp. work through all examples in doc/2.control.examples/)
you will not be able to do much meaningful things in Pd without at least 
a basic understanding on how to deal with messages.


fgm,asdr
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] Has anyone used PD to read internet radio streams?

2009-04-08 Thread John Harrison
I've used mp3amp~ to play shoutcast streams. It seems to work pretty well
and I think it's already included in Pd-extended for Linux. Might be on the
OSX version too...not sure.

-John

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:41 AM, danomatika danomat...@gmail.com wrote:

  Howdy,

 I'm wondering if anyone has used PD to read internet radio streams?

 I need to make an interactive tuner ...

   ---
 Dan Wilcox
 danomatika.com
 robotcowboy.com http://www.robotcowboy.com

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Re: [PD] auto 1 loops pix_film (and pix_movie?)

2009-04-08 Thread Jack


Le 8 avr. 09 à 10:34, Marco Donnarumma a écrit :


Hey..
thanks Derek, yes i've already done what you're saying for my  
project C::NTR::L and i have a simple process which give me  
dynamically the total frames for each video you load.

With the 2nd output of [pix_film] for exemple ? ;)
++

Jack



I was asking just to know the truth about it  :)
Since i'm using this process a lot i could create a specific  
example about this for FLOSS manual. I have this exact process  
ready in my patches.

ATM i'm terribly busy, but i'll keep it in mind and contribute asap.
best..


Marco


Hi Marco,

This has been normal behavior as long as I have been aware of it. That
doesn't mean that it's not a bug, however ;-)

If you want looping + scrubbing, a better way would be to build a
counter with a [mod] object set to the total number of frames in your
clip, that way you could change the payback speed of the clip and  
(with
some adjustments to the counter) skip around in the frames as well  
as go
backwards, etc etc. (Nice topic for a FLOSS Manuals tutorial, eh  
Marius?)


best!
Derek

Marco Donnarumma wrote:
 If i send a [auto 1( to [pix_film] i'm not able anymore to  
scratch the

 movie sending values to its cold inlet.
 Is this bug connected with the bug you talk about or a normal  
function

 of the obj.?

 besides i noticed pix_movie doens't have this behaviour but is  
crashing

 on most of the MAC OS i tried with. is this another known issue?


--
::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista :::
http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista :::
---Oblique Strategy # 37:
Convert a melodic element into a rhythmic element



--

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:22:36 +0200
From: marius schebella marius.schebe...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [PD] auto 1 loops pix_film (and pix_movie?)
To: Derek Holzer de...@umatic.nl
Cc: pd-list@iem.at
Message-ID: 49db7dcc.90...@gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Derek Holzer wrote:
 Hi Marco,

 This has been normal behavior as long as I have been aware of it.  
That

 doesn't mean that it's not a bug, however ;-)

 If you want looping + scrubbing, a better way would be to build a
 counter with a [mod] object set to the total number of frames in  
your
 clip, that way you could change the payback speed of the clip and  
(with
 some adjustments to the counter) skip around in the frames as  
well as go
 backwards, etc etc. (Nice topic for a FLOSS Manuals tutorial, eh  
Marius?)



something like that is already there, but not as a separate example  
(yet...)

marius.


--
Marco Donnarumma aka The !S.A.D!



Multimedia Artist, Live Performer
Roma, IT

LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net

EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net
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Re: [PD] Has anyone used PD to read internet radio streams?

2009-04-08 Thread Luigi

Hi,
well not directly, but i did use mplayer (commandline) to receive  
internet radion stations and you can send them (also multiple streams)

to PD via Jack...

The advantage: you are not limited to shoutcast.

That worked quite good

Best Luigi

Am 08.04.2009 um 14:49 schrieb John Harrison:

I've used mp3amp~ to play shoutcast streams. It seems to work pretty  
well and I think it's already included in Pd-extended for Linux.  
Might be on the OSX version too...not sure.


-John

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:41 AM, danomatika danomat...@gmail.com  
wrote:

Howdy,

I'm wondering if anyone has used PD to read internet radio streams?

I need to make an interactive tuner ...

---
Dan Wilcox
danomatika.com
robotcowboy.com

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Re: [PD] auto 1 loops pix_film (and pix_movie?)

2009-04-08 Thread Marco Donnarumma
Yes, Connect the second outlet of [pix_film] to [unpack].
Then the first outlet of [unpack] will give you the total amount of frames
of the video you load.
So you can connect the first outlet of [unpack] to the last inlet of
[counter]. This will set the maximum value to reach for [counter].
I use [counter] to play each frame of the video and i send the scratch
values in its third inlet.

this is how i do it... but as Derek were suggesting there is the [mod]
object too.. Derek how do you use it?
just for curiosity...
thanks..

best




On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Jack j...@rybn.org wrote:


 Le 8 avr. 09 à 10:34, Marco Donnarumma a écrit :

 Hey..
 thanks Derek, yes i've already done what you're saying for my project
 C::NTR::L and i have a simple process which give me dynamically the total
 frames for each video you load.

 With the 2nd output of [pix_film] for exemple ? ;)
 ++

 Jack


 I was asking just to know the truth about it  :)
 Since i'm using this process a lot i could create a specific example about
 this for FLOSS manual. I have this exact process ready in my patches.
 ATM i'm terribly busy, but i'll keep it in mind and contribute asap.
 best..


 Marco



 Hi Marco,

 This has been normal behavior as long as I have been aware of it. That
 doesn't mean that it's not a bug, however ;-)

 If you want looping + scrubbing, a better way would be to build a
 counter with a [mod] object set to the total number of frames in your
 clip, that way you could change the payback speed of the clip and (with
 some adjustments to the counter) skip around in the frames as well as go
 backwards, etc etc. (Nice topic for a FLOSS Manuals tutorial, eh Marius?)

 best!
 Derek

 Marco Donnarumma wrote:
  If i send a [auto 1( to [pix_film] i'm not able anymore to scratch the
  movie sending values to its cold inlet.
  Is this bug connected with the bug you talk about or a normal function
  of the obj.?
 
  besides i noticed pix_movie doens't have this behaviour but is crashing
  on most of the MAC OS i tried with. is this another known issue?


 --
 ::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista :::
 http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista :::
 ---Oblique Strategy # 37:
 Convert a melodic element into a rhythmic element



 --

 Message: 7
 Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:22:36 +0200
 From: marius schebella marius.schebe...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [PD] auto 1 loops pix_film (and pix_movie?)
 To: Derek Holzer de...@umatic.nl
 Cc: pd-list@iem.at
 Message-ID: 49db7dcc.90...@gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

 Derek Holzer wrote:
  Hi Marco,
 
  This has been normal behavior as long as I have been aware of it. That
  doesn't mean that it's not a bug, however ;-)
 
  If you want looping + scrubbing, a better way would be to build a
  counter with a [mod] object set to the total number of frames in your
  clip, that way you could change the payback speed of the clip and (with
  some adjustments to the counter) skip around in the frames as well as go
  backwards, etc etc. (Nice topic for a FLOSS Manuals tutorial, eh
 Marius?)
 

 something like that is already there, but not as a separate example
 (yet...)
 marius.



 --
 Marco Donnarumma aka The !S.A.D!



 Multimedia Artist, Live Performer
 Roma, IT

 LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net

 EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net
 ___
 Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
 UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -
 http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list





-- 
Marco Donnarumma aka The !S.A.D!



Multimedia Artist, Live Performer
Roma, IT

LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net

EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net
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Re: [PD] , , , || etc

2009-04-08 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner


On Apr 8, 2009, at 7:19 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:


Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

On Apr 6, 2009, at 5:26 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:

Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
So a library like 'audiomath' would then have audiomath/ 
libaudiomath.pd_linux.  Normally, audiomath/libaudiomath.pd_linux  
would only include shared code, but for this case, it would also  
include the ~ class, etc.


i guess you meant to name it either audiomath/ 
libaudiomath.so (or .dll or .dylib) or audiomath/ 
audiomath.pd_linux.
Perhaps audiomath/libaudiomath.so makes the most sense so that it  
can't be loaded by Pd as an objectclass.  But I am guessing.



the question is why you would want to enforce Pd not being able to  
load this library.
at the worst this would allow to mix abstractions, single-object- 
binaries, multi-object-binaries and shared-code dylibs into a single  
bundle (libdir-like directory defining a library)


the only reason i see to create an explicit mechanism to prevent Pd  
from loadinga file as an object-class is a notorious aversion  
against multiboject-binaries.


it's ok for me if someone doesn't like these. it's not ok for me  
declaring war on them.


I have traditionally had an aversion to multiobject-binaries because  
of the pain they caused many people, me included.  It seems that they  
could be fine as long as we have the right mechanisms to be able to  
put the objectclasses in that binary into a fully functioning  
namespace, and be able to address them using namespace prefixes.  From  
the Pd interface point of view, all objectclasses should behave the  
same, regardless of how they are implemented.


The idea for the audiomath/libaudiomath.so chunk is for shared code  
that would be loaded when the library is loaded, whether or not any  
object class has been loaded.  I suppose it might just be simpler to  
make it a .pd_linux.  I just have a feeling that it will cause  
problems down the line, I don't have an example off hand to back up  
that feeling.



i admit that currently all C-code is considered shared (that is:  
there is no list2symbol.pd_linux), but once you start blurring  
the two worlds it get's blurry anyhow (and l2s and list2symbol  
share about 100% of their code anyhow)

I like having each objectclass as its own file.


i know

Then only the code that is in use will be loaded into memory.   
linking everything together into one zexy.pd_linux means the whole  
thing is loaded into memory, no?


obviously.
but you are surely aware that you cannot avoid people doing this  
with shared libs (that cannot be loaded directly by Pd) as well.


so again, the only reason to make this explicit is because to throw  
feeble hurdles on the path of freedom of a developer.

trying to turn pathos mode off


I think the archives have some long discussions about the problems  
with multi-object binaries.  I am not opposed to using them if someone  
wants to do the work to make them behave like abstractions in a libdir  
currently do.  (i.e. [import mylib] then [myobj]; [mylib/myobj],  
etc.)   Then we would have a relatively straightforward solution for  
the problems with ~, etc.


i would also like to have Pd's loading mechanism modified so that  
it _temporarily_ adds Gem/ to the dylib-searchpath, so one could  
ship a library with external dependencies (without having to link  
them statically)

I am sure you don't mean to do this on GNU/Linux, right?


yes i want to do this on all platforms.


What lib would you include with Gem on GNU/Linux?  Shouldn't Gem use  
the Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora packages?  Or am I missing something?



I take it you mean like including a .dylib in the Gem folder?


but i am not talking about including libGL.so with Gem.

it is really something along the lines of your proposal on  
audiomath/libaudiomath.so.



Kind of like what I do with Pd-extended and the Fink dylibs?  That  
is not a great system.  I think due to the limitations of the Mac  
OS X shared lib loading, it would be painful.  Basically, AFAIK,  
a .dylib in Mac OS X must have its path hard-coded in the file.   
Otherwise, you have to load it manually with a direct call to dlopen.


but the path can be relative, no?


Not really, IIRC.  It has to be an absolute path, but then there is  
this @executable_path@ variable which is replaced by the path to the  
executable that is loading the lib.  Its all a bit hazy in my brain,  
it would be worth checking the docs and maybe trying a relative path.   
I remember trying a lot of things, then giving up and thinking that Pd  
would have to open audiomath/libaudiomath.so directly using dlopen().


.hc

I don't remember the details in Windows, I think that it already  
checks . for .dlls by default.


this is how i remember it as well.


fgmasdr
IOhannes






  ¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!



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Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-08 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner


On Apr 8, 2009, at 6:51 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:


Frank Barknecht wrote:

Hallo,
IOhannes m zmoelnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:

basically because it is like it is.
i guess that if someone (not completely naive; and with an eye on   
language-design and not just tool-design) would go and re-invent  
the  wheel, they would make lists just lists. without any special  
selector  (just the first element of the list).
But if you drop the current selectors and use the first element of  
any

list as selector, you just have reinvented selectors, haven't you? ;)


no.
or yes, but selectors need not be symbols, and there would be no  
special selectors, that implictely define the tail of the list.


somehow functional languages like lisp manage to do well with lists  
and dealing the head of a list (selector) in various special ways  
without making the head be different from the elements of the tail.



On Apr 8, 2009, at 2:32 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Like [list append], [list prepend], [list split], [list  
length], ...? :)


This is kind of the opposite of what we mean, I think.  It forces the  
list on everything.  It is a library built around that one concept  
then, which is good.  But I think, like IOhannes says above, that it  
should be possible to ditch the float and symbol selectors, since  
Pd is already setting the type of each atom, then call any message  
with more than one atom a list and also drop the list selector.


Then something like [route symbol float list] would just sort data,  
without stripping off any atoms from the message, but [route foo bar]  
would still look for the first atom, and if it finds it, strip it off  
and route it.


.hc



I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three  
meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds,  
and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits.  - Martin  
Luther King, Jr.




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Re: [PD] Has anyone used PD to read internet radio streams?

2009-04-08 Thread august
 Howdy,
 
 I'm wondering if anyone has used PD to read internet radio streams?
 
 I need to make an interactive tuner ...
 


you can also try this:

http://aug.ment.org/readanysf/


It was made just for that.

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Re: [PD] (Ask) Master Degree in New Media Arts

2009-04-08 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner


I should through in some others:

http://bxmc.poly.edu/
http://dt.parsons.edu/
http://www.interactivearts.org/
http://ccrma.stanford.edu/info/mst-info.html

.hc

On Apr 8, 2009, at 1:41 AM, Koray Tahiroglu wrote:



http://mlab.taik.fi/

especially there is a new MA program already started this academic  
year, Sound in New Media, which might covers pretty much all your  
interests.


Koray



On Apr 7, 2009, at 7:19 PM, pd-list-requ...@iem.at wrote:


Message: 2
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 19:19:31 +0700
From: Adityo Pratomo quietdi...@gmail.com
Subject: [PD] (Ask) Master Degree in New Media Arts
To: PD List Pd-list@iem.at
Message-ID:
27d16aa70904070519q64ddeae6h968fcdc259ff1...@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Hi there everyone.

I want to ask, can anybody give me information about universities  
that give
a master degree in new media arts, probably those that similar with  
MIT

Media Lab. I've just graduated with a bachelor degree in electrical
engineering, and in my final assignment, I create some kind of  
installation
using Arduino and Pd. After that, I feel very eager to continue  
studying
about this new media art field. So can anybody tell me where should  
i go?

Any information will be appreciated.

Thank you very much everybody!

Cheers

--
mataharipertama.wordpress.com
kotakmakan.multiply.com




-
M.Koray Tahiroglu
Acoustics Lab / TKK
http://mlab.taik.fi/~korayt/
http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/~ktahirog/
tel: +358 45 233 6272




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Re: [PD] auto 1 loops pix_film (and pix_movie?)

2009-04-08 Thread Derek Holzer
Sorry, no time to patch it for you now, but basically send the total 
number of frames output by [pix_film] to the cold inlet of mod, send the 
output of the counter to the hot inlet of [mod]. By changing the speed 
of the [metro] in the counter, you change frame playback rate. You can 
also put another [mod] below that to loop a smaller section, with a [+] 
following it to make the frame offset.


In bad ASCII:

[metro (playback speed in ms)]
|
[f]x[+1]
|
[mod (total number of frames)]
|
[mod (length of loop in frames)]
|
[+ (starting frame of loop)]
|
(cold inlet of [pix_film])

Hope that makes sense! I'll leave it to you to figure out how to make it 
run backwards ;-)


Best,
D.

Marco Donnarumma wrote:

Yes, Connect the second outlet of [pix_film] to [unpack].
Then the first outlet of [unpack] will give you the total amount of 
frames of the video you load.
So you can connect the first outlet of [unpack] to the last inlet of 
[counter]. This will set the maximum value to reach for [counter].
I use [counter] to play each frame of the video and i send the scratch 
values in its third inlet.


this is how i do it... but as Derek were suggesting there is the [mod] 
object too.. Derek how do you use it?

just for curiosity...
thanks..

best




On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Jack j...@rybn.org 
mailto:j...@rybn.org wrote:



Le 8 avr. 09 à 10:34, Marco Donnarumma a écrit :


Hey..
thanks Derek, yes i've already done what you're saying for my
project C::NTR::L and i have a simple process which give me
dynamically the total frames for each video you load.

With the 2nd output of [pix_film] for exemple ? ;)
++

Jack



I was asking just to know the truth about it  :)
Since i'm using this process a lot i could create a specific
example about this for FLOSS manual. I have this exact process
ready in my patches.
ATM i'm terribly busy, but i'll keep it in mind and contribute asap.
best..


Marco

 


Hi Marco,

This has been normal behavior as long as I have been aware of
it. That
doesn't mean that it's not a bug, however ;-)

If you want looping + scrubbing, a better way would be to build a
counter with a [mod] object set to the total number of frames
in your
clip, that way you could change the payback speed of the clip
and (with
some adjustments to the counter) skip around in the frames as
well as go
backwards, etc etc. (Nice topic for a FLOSS Manuals tutorial,
eh Marius?)

best!
Derek

Marco Donnarumma wrote:
 If i send a [auto 1( to [pix_film] i'm not able anymore to
scratch the
 movie sending values to its cold inlet.
 Is this bug connected with the bug you talk about or a
normal function
 of the obj.?

 besides i noticed pix_movie doens't have this behaviour but
is crashing
 on most of the MAC OS i tried with. is this another known issue?


--
::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista :::
http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista :::
---Oblique Strategy # 37:
Convert a melodic element into a rhythmic element



--

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:22:36 +0200
From: marius schebella marius.schebe...@gmail.com
mailto:marius.schebe...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [PD] auto 1 loops pix_film (and pix_movie?)
To: Derek Holzer de...@umatic.nl mailto:de...@umatic.nl
Cc: pd-list@iem.at mailto:pd-list@iem.at
Message-ID: 49db7dcc.90...@gmail.com
mailto:49db7dcc.90...@gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Derek Holzer wrote:
 Hi Marco,

 This has been normal behavior as long as I have been aware
of it. That
 doesn't mean that it's not a bug, however ;-)

 If you want looping + scrubbing, a better way would be to
build a
 counter with a [mod] object set to the total number of
frames in your
 clip, that way you could change the payback speed of the
clip and (with
 some adjustments to the counter) skip around in the frames
as well as go
 backwards, etc etc. (Nice topic for a FLOSS Manuals
tutorial, eh Marius?)


something like that is already there, but not as a separate
example (yet...)
marius.



-- 
Marco Donnarumma aka The !S.A.D!




Multimedia Artist, Live Performer
Roma, IT

LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net

EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net
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[PD] morphing

2009-04-08 Thread Johannes

hello list,

i like to morph two samples about a duration of one minute.
what is the the most accurate, i mean smoothest, way to do that in pd?

has anybody experience with that?

thanks, johannes



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Re: [PD] auto 1 loops pix_film (and pix_movie?)

2009-04-08 Thread Jack

Here a small exemple.++Jack

scratchvideo.pd
Description: Binary data
Le 8 avr. 09 à 16:52, Marco Donnarumma a écrit :Yes, Connect the second outlet of [pix_film] to [unpack].Then the first outlet of [unpack] will give you the total amount of frames of the video you load.So you can connect the first outlet of [unpack] to the last inlet of [counter]. This will set the maximum value to reach for [counter]. I use [counter] to play each frame of the video and i send the scratch values in its third inlet. this is how i do it... but as Derek were suggesting there is the [mod] object too.. Derek how do you use it?just for curiosity... thanks..bestOn Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Jack j...@rybn.org wrote:  Le 8 avr. 09 à 10:34, Marco Donnarumma a écrit :Hey..thanks Derek, yes i've already done what you're saying for my project C::NTR::L and i have a simple process which give me dynamically the total frames for each video you load. With the 2nd output of [pix_film] for exemple ? ;)++JackI was asking just to know the truth about it :) Since i'm using this process a lot i could create a specific example about this for FLOSS manual. I have this exact process ready in my patches.ATM i'm terribly busy, but i'll keep it in mind and contribute asap. best..MarcoHi Marco, This has been normal behavior as long as I have been aware of it. That doesn't mean that it's not a bug, however ;-) If you want looping + scrubbing, a better way would be to build a counter with a [mod] object set to the total number of frames in your clip, that way you could change the payback speed of the clip and (with some adjustments to the counter) skip around in the frames as well as go backwards, etc etc. (Nice topic for a FLOSS Manuals tutorial, eh Marius?) best! Derek Marco Donnarumma wrote:  If i send a [auto 1( to [pix_film] i'm not able anymore to scratch the  movie sending values to its cold inlet.  Is this bug connected with the bug you talk about or a normal function  of the obj.?   besides i noticed pix_movie doens't have this behaviour but is crashing  on most of the MAC OS i tried with. is this another known issue? -- ::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista :::http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista ::: ---Oblique Strategy # 37: "Convert a melodic element into a rhythmic element" -- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:22:36 +0200 From: marius schebella marius.schebe...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] auto 1 loops pix_film (and pix_movie?) To: Derek Holzer de...@umatic.nl Cc: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 49db7dcc.90...@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Derek Holzer wrote:  Hi Marco,   This has been normal behavior as long as I have been aware of it. That  doesn't mean that it's not a bug, however ;-)   If you want looping + scrubbing, a better way would be to build a  counter with a [mod] object set to the total number of frames in your  clip, that way you could change the payback speed of the clip and (with  some adjustments to the counter) skip around in the frames as well as go  backwards, etc etc. (Nice topic for a FLOSS Manuals tutorial, eh Marius?)  something like that is already there, but not as a separate example (yet...) marius.  -- Marco Donnarumma aka The !S.A.D!Multimedia Artist, Live PerformerRoma, ITLAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing listUNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Marco Donnarumma aka The !S.A.D!Multimedia Artist, Live PerformerRoma, ITLAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net___
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Re: [PD] mapping: path setting hell

2009-04-08 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner


On Apr 8, 2009, at 5:35 AM, cyrille henry wrote:




Frank Barknecht a écrit :

Hallo,
Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Yes, there is some absurdity to this conversation.  I guess Frank  
and I have been doing this for so long, its just part of a game we  
play ;-)


Anyway, I could give the instructions in one step:

1. use Pd-extended ;-)
But that's exactly what I mean: mapping IMO has become promotion  
material for
pd-extended, but increasingly hard to use for users of newer Pd  
versions or

alternative distributions.
specially since it's mainly abstraction, i don't understand why we  
need to install it.
i think for this specific lib, any dependency of object outside it's  
directory can be seen as a bug.


I don't understand this at all.  Why did every modern operating system  
spend massive amounts of work to switch from static linking of  
libraries (i.e. including the library with the program itself) to  
dynamic, shared libraries (i.e. a single copy of a library shared by  
all programs that use it)?


.hc





c

I don't think many newbies really want to get into the nitty- 
gritty of  hand-built Pd installs, but this conversation did make  
me smooth out the installation process.  Before, the 10 steps were  
for creating a library from scratch.  I think its pretty simple  
considering.  Now, the libraries are pre-built in SVN, so you only  
need to:


1. cd /path/to/your/extra (or wherever you want to install stuff)
2. svn co 
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/trunk/externals/mapping
3. svn co 
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/trunk/abstractions/purepd
4. pd -lib libdir -lib purepd -lib mapping
You cheat a bit here: svn co whereverlibdiris; make libdir, and I  
don't know,
if help-files in mapping work then - with just your sets they  
won't. And you
still have the requirement of putting the directories mapping and  
purepd into a
directory in the pd path like extra, so it's still four paths to  
set, just

like I wrote in my first mail.
Ciao


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  ¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!



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Re: [PD] mapping: path setting hell

2009-04-08 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner


On Apr 8, 2009, at 5:59 AM, cyrille henry wrote:




Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :

Inside of the objects themselves, I use always the [mapping/ 
reverse] form.  Only in the help patches do I use the [reverse]  
form.  That convention seemed to make sense at the time, but I am  
not married to it.


since all mapping object are in the same directory, using the   
[reverse] form inside the object will still work on pd-extended.
but it will also make the mapping lib more flexible (you'll be able  
to move the objects / copy them in your patch directory ). So i see  
this as a big improvement of the situation.


do you agree if i change this?



Unfortunately, that's not entirely true, otherwise I would say to  
change it.  Right now, a binary object will trump ANY abstraction,  
even if it is in the same directory.  So if someone loads a binary  
object called reverse, then [reverse] will ALWAYS be that binary, so  
matter where you put reverse.pd or how you load it.  [mapping/reverse]  
prevents that.


This is a perfect case of why we should change the load order in Pd.   
I think it should search for all object types in a given path  
(i.e. .pd .pd_linux, .pd_lua, etc.)  THEN it should search the next  
path.  Currently the opposite happens: it searches .pd_linux in all  
paths, then the loaders (i.e. .pd_lua) in all paths, then the  
abstractions in all paths.


.hc



[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are  
deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from  
scarcity.-John Gilmore




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Re: [PD] mapping: path setting hell

2009-04-08 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner


On Apr 8, 2009, at 1:54 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote:


Hallo,
Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

You cheat a bit here: svn co whereverlibdiris; make libdir, and  
I  don't
know, if help-files in mapping work then - with just your sets  
they won't.
And you still have the requirement of putting the directories  
mapping and
purepd into a directory in the pd path like extra, so it's still  
four

paths to  set, just like I wrote in my first mail.


How about checking whether help files work before reporting the  
problem?


I wrote I don't know if helpp-files work - but I've tried it now.

You only need to install libdir once.  Plus if you use the latest  
version
of libdir, then 'extra' can be any folder in the path.  I suggest  
one of

these:

http://puredata.info/docs/faq/how-do-i-install-externals-and-help-files-with-pd-extended


Okay, here's what I did:

$ cp -a SVN/mapping /usr/lib/pd/extra
$ cd SVN/loaders
$ svn update
$ make (to make libdir.pd_linux)
$ pd -lib libdir -lib mapping

gives this:
...
libdir loader $Revision: 1.8 $
   compiled on Apr  8 2009 at 07:46:59
   compiled against Pd version 0.42.4.
mapping: can't load library
...

and I still cannot create any mapping object. I was able to fix that  
by adding
a mapping-meta.pd file manually (copied from some pd-extended source  
on my

disk, could find one in SVN's trunk). Help files still don't work.

According to http://puredata.info/docs/developer/Libdir help-files  
have to be
either in 5.reference/libname or next to the object in question.  
Both is not
the case the way mapping is laid out and again something, that has  
to be done

manually.

That's all pretty complicated for a newbie like me. :)


Luckily the solution is simple:   svn update.  Sounds like you are  
working with an old copy.  The folder externals/mapping/help should  
be gone, all the help patches in externals/mapping, and there should  
be a externals/mapping/mapping-meta.pd file.  Otherwise, you're  
working with old code.


.hc




Ciao
--
Frank

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[PD] start-up messages weirdnesses

2009-04-08 Thread Matteo Sisti Sette

Hi,

I've been using for a long time an old version of GEM, because for a 
series of compatibility and stability issues it was the only one that 
worked for me when I investigated, which was a couple of years ago 
(2007). At that time, the latest official release dated back to 2004 and 
the version I chose and still use is dated august 2006.


I should now try the latest version, however I'm getting some messages I 
can't understand, and above all I can't understand why I get these 
messages with the same version of PD and GEM on one machine and not on 
others when the only difference is Windows version (and possibly some 
third party software/codecs/drivers) but not PD or GEM versions.


Here's the all the init messages I get in Windows Vista:

=== INIT MESSAGES IN WINDOWS VISTA; PD 0.42-4 =
warning: old method 'width' for class 'curve' renamed 'width_aliased'
warning: old method 'draw' for class 'curve' renamed 'draw_aliased'
warning: old method 'draw' for class 'curve3d' renamed 'draw_aliased'
warning: old method 'width' for class 'polygon' renamed 'width_aliased'
warning: old method 'draw' for class 'polygon' renamed 'draw_aliased'
warning: old method 'draw' for class 'primTri' renamed 'draw_aliased'
warning: old method 'width' for class 'scopeXYZ' renamed 'width_aliased'
warning: old method 'draw' for class 'scopeXYZ' renamed 'draw_aliased'
warning: old method 'open' for class 'fragment_program' renamed 
'open_aliased'
warning: old method 'print' for class 'fragment_program' renamed 
'print_aliased'

warning: class 'pix_film' overwritten\; old one renamed 'pix_film_aliased'
warning: class 'pix_filmQT' overwritten\; old one renamed 
'pix_filmQT_aliased'

warning: old method 'open' for class 'pix_movieNEW' renamed 'open_aliased'
warning: old method 'img_num' for class 'pix_movieNEW' renamed 
'img_num_aliased'

warning: old method 'auto' for class 'pix_movieNEW' renamed 'auto_aliased'
warning: class 'pix_videoDS' overwritten\; old one renamed 
'pix_videoDS_aliased'

GEM: Graphics Environment for Multimedia
GEM: ver: 0.90
GEM: compiled: Apr 12 2006
GEM: maintained by IOhannes m zmoelnig
GEM: Authors :  Mark Danks (original version on irix/windows)
GEM:Chris Clepper (macOS-X)
GEM:Daniel Heckenberg (windows)
GEM:James Tittle (macOS-X)
GEM:IOhannes m zmoelnig (linux/windows)
Gem Man: QT init OK
pix_film:: avi support
=

On the other hand, on older machines with windows XP, with the same 
version of gem and also of PD I don't get any of the warning messages.


I have only a remote dubt (and cannot check) that I may be wrong about 
the PD version that does not give the warning messages: it could be 
0.42-3; however I'm almost sure it is 0.42-4, the same that does give 
the warning - however both are definitely 0.42-x and both gem versions 
are the very same Gem.dll file.


Anybody can explain where's the difference?
Also, what's the exact meaning and history of these messages? I'm sure 
this has already been discussed in the list but I can't find it in the 
archives (a typical case of difficult formulation of significant keyword 
combination), so if anybody can point me to an old thread where this was 
explained, that would be a great help.


Thank you in advance
Matteo Sisti Sette

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Re: [PD] mapping: path setting hell

2009-04-08 Thread Frank Barknecht
Hallo,
Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

 Luckily the solution is simple:   svn update.  Sounds like you are  
 working with an old copy.  The folder externals/mapping/help should be 
 gone, all the help patches in externals/mapping, and there should be a 
 externals/mapping/mapping-meta.pd file.  Otherwise, you're working with 
 old code.

Ah, indeed, I was using the wrong outdated copy, so sorry for the wrong
help-file noise.

Ciao
-- 
Frank

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[PD] timing issues in Windows Vista

2009-04-08 Thread Matteo Sisti Sette

Hi,
This drives me crazy.

I'm trying PD 0.42-4 on Windows Vista. Always used XP before.

Logical time runs 50% slower than real time, i.e. 1000 logical 
millisecond pass in approximately 1500 real milliseconds.

Yet there is no abnormal CPU consumption.

Try the attached patch. On any normal Windows XP machine I test it on, 
the number box will increase one unit every one second.


On my laptop with Windows Vista, which is a Core Duo T9300, it 
increments every 1.5 seconds approximately.


I haven't tested yet what happens with signals.

Any ideas?

Thanks
m.
#N canvas 321 345 584 396 12;
#X obj 233 67 tgl 15 0 empty empty empty 17 7 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 0
1;
#X obj 233 128 metro 1000;
#X obj 229 174 timer;
#X floatatom 235 258 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X obj 228 204 / 1000;
#X obj 231 94 t f f;
#X obj 124 139 select 1;
#X connect 0 0 5 0;
#X connect 1 0 2 1;
#X connect 2 0 4 0;
#X connect 4 0 3 0;
#X connect 5 0 1 0;
#X connect 5 1 6 0;
#X connect 6 0 2 0;
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Re: [PD] morphing

2009-04-08 Thread Max

crossfade?

m.

Am 08.04.2009 um 18:05 schrieb Johannes:


hello list,

i like to morph two samples about a duration of one minute.
what is the the most accurate, i mean smoothest, way to do that in pd?

has anybody experience with that?

thanks, johannes


PGP.sig
Description: Signierter Teil der Nachricht
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Re: [PD] mapping: path setting hell

2009-04-08 Thread Frank Barknecht
Hallo,
Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

 On Apr 8, 2009, at 5:35 AM, cyrille henry wrote:
 i think for this specific lib, any dependency of object outside it's  
 directory can be seen as a bug.

 I don't understand this at all.  Why did every modern operating system  
 spend massive amounts of work to switch from static linking of libraries 
 (i.e. including the library with the program itself) to dynamic, shared 
 libraries (i.e. a single copy of a library shared by all programs that 
 use it)?

I think, advantages and disadvantages have to be weighted, and IMO mapping
currently is leaning to a not very user friendly side. For example its use of
[float_argument], [symbol_argument] and [once] from purepd creates a dependency
on purepd that is completely unnecessary: [once] is only used once,
[symbol_argument] also, and float_argument very often is used where a simple [f
$1]  would be enough (its second argument is empty). So I'd say, get rid of it
and be more friendly to users. 

Another case is the standardization to use abstraction names, that require
the (sometimes broken) hexloader: Life would be much easier for a lot of people
without the - convention.

Other cases may not be so easy to fix and some externals are hard to replace,
but as it currenly is, mapping looks like a collection that puts some abstract
design principles higher than actual user demands. Of course that's just my
humble opinion, which is leaning to a much more simplistic side.

Ciao
-- 
Frank

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Re: [PD] morphing

2009-04-08 Thread 老于 / Jürgen
oh dear, if crossfading would do the job it wouldn't be called  
'morphing' but 'mixing'.


there's a paper on morphing here, a bit old but still...

http://cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~malcolm/interval/1995-061/ 
AudioMorphingPaper.pdf


On 09 Apr 2009, at 3:10 AM, Max wrote:


crossfade?

m.

Am 08.04.2009 um 18:05 schrieb Johannes:


hello list,

i like to morph two samples about a duration of one minute.
what is the the most accurate, i mean smoothest, way to do that in  
pd?


has anybody experience with that?

thanks, johannes

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Re: [PD] morphing

2009-04-08 Thread marius schebella
There's a help patch I06 timbre stamp, if you want some quick kinda 
morphing effect.

Marius.

老于 / Jürgen wrote:
oh dear, if crossfading would do the job it wouldn't be called 
'morphing' but 'mixing'.


there's a paper on morphing here, a bit old but still...

http://cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~malcolm/interval/1995-061/AudioMorphingPaper.pdf 



On 09 Apr 2009, at 3:10 AM, Max wrote:


crossfade?

m.

Am 08.04.2009 um 18:05 schrieb Johannes:


hello list,

i like to morph two samples about a duration of one minute.
what is the the most accurate, i mean smoothest, way to do that in pd?

has anybody experience with that?

thanks, johannes

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[PD] beat detection

2009-04-08 Thread Scott Wade
Hi guys,

Sorry if this is the wrong forum or if the question is too simple - I want
to detect beats in audio coming from turntables in order to drive visuals in
time to the beat.

What is the best object to use for this?

Thanks in advance

W
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Re: [PD] beat detection

2009-04-08 Thread Alex
there is [bonk~] in pd
there is also a pd external that uses aubio [in the aubio distro i
think, it is also in apt [ubuntu].

-Alex

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Scott Wade wade...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi guys,

 Sorry if this is the wrong forum or if the question is too simple - I want
 to detect beats in audio coming from turntables in order to drive visuals in
 time to the beat.

 What is the best object to use for this?

 Thanks in advance

 W

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Re: [PD] mapping: path setting hell

2009-04-08 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner


On Apr 8, 2009, at 3:23 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote:


Hallo,
Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:


On Apr 8, 2009, at 5:35 AM, cyrille henry wrote:

i think for this specific lib, any dependency of object outside it's
directory can be seen as a bug.


I don't understand this at all.  Why did every modern operating  
system
spend massive amounts of work to switch from static linking of  
libraries
(i.e. including the library with the program itself) to dynamic,  
shared
libraries (i.e. a single copy of a library shared by all programs  
that

use it)?


I think, advantages and disadvantages have to be weighted, and IMO  
mapping
currently is leaning to a not very user friendly side. For example  
its use of
[float_argument], [symbol_argument] and [once] from purepd creates a  
dependency

on purepd that is completely unnecessary: [once] is only used once,
[symbol_argument] also, and float_argument very often is used where  
a simple [f
$1]  would be enough (its second argument is empty). So I'd say, get  
rid of it

and be more friendly to users.


If there is good code out there, I want to use it, not reinvent it.   
If you use mapping in Pd-extended, you never need to know anything  
about what's happening inside, it just works.  With a little bit of  
effort, Pd-vanilla users can also acheive this.  That's why I am  
fixing up libdir.c and these libraries in SVN.


Another case is the standardization to use abstraction names, that  
require
the (sometimes broken) hexloader: Life would be much easier for a  
lot of people

without the - convention.


Indeed, I fully agree. That's why I fixed it over a year ago :D   
mapping needs to hexloader tricks.


Other cases may not be so easy to fix and some externals are hard to  
replace,
but as it currenly is, mapping looks like a collection that puts  
some abstract
design principles higher than actual user demands. Of course that's  
just my

humble opinion, which is leaning to a much more simplistic side.


These libraries were a place for me to experiment with ways of  
handling libraries in Pd easier.  Some of the experiments failed, but  
I think right now its in a pretty good place.  So try it out the way  
it is now and tell me what doesn't work.


.hc




Ciao
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Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation

2009-04-08 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner


There are lots of good ideas worth trying.  We've talked about it a  
lot, we just need someone to take charge of it.  I am just too  
overloaded to handle pdpedia on top of everything else.  Who wants to  
own it?


.hc

On Apr 1, 2009, at 11:21 AM, Jean-Noël Montagné wrote:







It would be good to have
standards on how articles should be formatted and what kind of
information should be presented.



yes I agree. At the origin in 2006..., I have suggested to some  
french PDers the following features:



-

* a lexicon-dictionary about objects/externals/abstractions ( Done)

* a category search portal ( one of the most important feature for  
pd newbies ), like in Wikipedia portal http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia:Catégories 
 ( to do)


Example of category search:  
PD==Graphics==Video==Live==Effects==Blending== pix_add / 
pix_subtract /pix_diff /pix_composite/ pix_multiply/ PDP_blend  
( fiction...)


* multilingual structure as Wikipedia ( very important for  
educational uses in the world where people will stay with commercial  
software just for this reason ( France for example)) (Done)


future options, when the database will be completed enough:

* tools or wiki tags for visualizing patches ( parsing of the patch  
code to create an image of the patch, server side) and downloading  
text patches from PDpedia


* Pdpedia database embedded with PD extended ( when completed) for  
offline consulting


* in PD: a contextual help with access to the related pdpedia page  
(in PD itself or online)



-

About the formatting of one page, I have suggested the rubriques:


-

(from the body of the page)

Nature of the element (object/external/abstraction/
Short Definition
Generalities (long definition)
Compatibility ( wich versions of pd)
*
Inlets
Outlets
Arguments
Messages
*
Warnings and incompatibilities
Tricks and alternative ways to do it
Examples ( expanded help file+ other examples with pictures), links  
to video examples

Tutorials on this element, links to videos
Associated objects, related objects
Equivalents in similar open source softwares
*
Author(s) of the object, links
Contributors of this page.



--

(from the infobox)
name
ultra short description
abbreviation
library
author
developer
release version
release date
dependencies
license
website
programming language
platform (i.e Windows, Mac OS X, GNU/Linux)
operating system (i.e. Windows XP, Windows 2000, Mac OS X 10.3,  
Debian, etc.)

language
data type
distribution (i.e. Pd-vanilla, pd-extended, pure:dyne, etc)
link to the code


-




about the work to do on the PDpedia, I have suggested to organize  
PDpedia Parties:


It's a on day or two days fiesta gathering, where PDers decide:
-first : how many objects they will document, and wich objects ( 5  
per person during 3 hours for example)
-then they document individually, in a fiesta atmosphère, during a  
limited amount of time.
-then, they create collective(s) performance(s) in a complete fiesta  
atmosphere


I have also suggested that all PD teachers should give time in their  
workshops for the students to document on PDpedia the object they  
are discovering.



-

Of course, PDpedia is a long term project. There are also many  
initiatives like the great FLOSSmanuals, or videopedia to produce  
tutorials.


Because of the 2500 objects/elements, the PDpedia is more on the  
encyclopedic aspect.
2500 objects and more could be completed in many languages in five  
years, if the community understand how politically important is to  
help newbies to use such tools with documentation facilities.  
Documenting is not sometimes very sexy, that's why I suggest to  
organise PDpedia parties.


-

and yes, I agree, there is a need for some maintainers ( I can not  
do it at this time), for an antispam system with a captcha or  
similar stuff.



JN













2009/3/31 Alexandre Porres porresgmail.com:
 so we need :someone to manage the system, ok, but then I see  
that this

 problem is kinda well solved, right?
 But how do you all see the writting of articles? Is it growing  
out well? I
 believe someone could also direct how things are going, and  
that a main

 team could work on it by fomenting its development and all...
 right?

Something like a WikiProject on wikipedia? It would be good to have
standards on how articles should be formatted and what kind of
information should be presented. I see there has been some effort to
generate a standard layout for an article on an object, with inlets,
outlets, arguments and messages as separate sections; but I can't  
find

a good article to serve as an example for how all articles should
look. The best I can find is:
http://wiki.puredata.info/en/dac~

Re: [PD] beat detection

2009-04-08 Thread cristiano figueiró
[aubioonset~]
|
[rhythm]

:)



 On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 5:37 PM, Alex x37v.a...@gmail.com wrote:

 there is [bonk~] in pd
 there is also a pd external that uses aubio [in the aubio distro i
 think, it is also in apt [ubuntu].

 -Alex

 On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Scott Wade wade...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi guys,
 
  Sorry if this is the wrong forum or if the question is too simple - I
 want
  to detect beats in audio coming from turntables in order to drive
 visuals in
  time to the beat.
 
  What is the best object to use for this?
 
  Thanks in advance
 
  W
 
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Re: [PD] beat detection

2009-04-08 Thread Derek Holzer

Try the following as well...

D.

Alex wrote:

there is [bonk~] in pd
there is also a pd external that uses aubio [in the aubio distro i
think, it is also in apt [ubuntu].

-Alex

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Scott Wade wade...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi guys,

Sorry if this is the wrong forum or if the question is too simple - I want
to detect beats in audio coming from turntables in order to drive visuals in
time to the beat.

What is the best object to use for this?

Thanks in advance

W

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--
::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ::: 
http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista :::

---Oblique Strategy # 202:
Back up a few steps.
What else could you have done?
#N canvas 330 126 501 401 10;
#X text 373 372 de...@umatic.nl;
#X msg 285 354 \; pd dsp \$1;
#X obj 285 331 tgl 20 0 empty empty on/off 25 8 0 8 -258699 -1 -1 1
1;
#X obj 13 19 adc~;
#X obj 10 65 cnv 15 150 250 empty empty BASS 100 240 0 14 -44926 -66577
0;
#X obj 14 125 lop~ 60;
#X obj 15 146 env~ 64;
#X obj 15 236 threshold~;
#X msg 20 216 set \$1 5 \$1 5;
#X floatatom 59 199 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X floatatom 20 199 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X obj 15 268 bng 25 100 50 0 empty empty beat! 0 -6 0 8 -258699 -1
-1;
#X obj 20 102 mtof;
#X floatatom 68 125 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X obj 170 65 cnv 15 150 250 empty empty MIDS 100 240 0 14 -44926 -66577
0;
#X obj 175 146 env~ 64;
#X obj 175 236 threshold~;
#X msg 180 216 set \$1 5 \$1 5;
#X floatatom 219 199 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X floatatom 180 199 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X obj 175 268 bng 25 100 50 0 empty empty beat! 0 -6 0 8 -258699 -1
-1;
#X obj 180 102 mtof;
#X floatatom 249 125 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X obj 330 65 cnv 15 150 250 empty empty TREBLE 80 240 0 14 -44926
-66577 0;
#X obj 335 146 env~ 64;
#X obj 335 236 threshold~;
#X msg 340 216 set \$1 5 \$1 5;
#X floatatom 379 199 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X floatatom 340 199 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X obj 335 268 bng 25 100 50 0 empty empty beat! 0 -6 0 8 -258699 -1
-1;
#X obj 340 102 mtof;
#X obj 343 82 hsl 128 15 0 100 0 0 empty empty treble_frequency -2
-6 0 8 -233017 -1 -1 0 1;
#X floatatom 402 125 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X obj 174 125 bp~ 220 10;
#X obj 334 125 hip~ 2000;
#X obj 23 82 hsl 128 15 0 100 0 0 empty empty bass_frequency -2 -6
0 8 -233017 -1 -1 0 1;
#X obj 183 82 hsl 128 15 0 100 0 0 empty empty mids_frequency -2 -6
0 8 -233017 -1 -1 0 1;
#X obj 23 176 hsl 128 15 0 100 0 0 empty empty bass_threshold -2 -6
0 8 -24198 -1 -1 8100 1;
#X obj 183 176 hsl 128 15 0 100 0 0 empty empty mids_threshold -2 -6
0 8 -24198 -1 -1 1 1;
#X obj 343 176 hsl 128 15 0 100 0 0 empty empty treble_threshold -2
-6 0 8 -24198 -1 -1 9700 1;
#X connect 2 0 1 0;
#X connect 3 0 5 0;
#X connect 3 0 33 0;
#X connect 3 0 34 0;
#X connect 5 0 6 0;
#X connect 6 0 10 0;
#X connect 6 0 7 0;
#X connect 7 0 11 0;
#X connect 8 0 7 0;
#X connect 12 0 13 0;
#X connect 12 0 5 1;
#X connect 15 0 19 0;
#X connect 15 0 16 0;
#X connect 16 0 20 0;
#X connect 17 0 16 0;
#X connect 21 0 22 0;
#X connect 21 0 33 1;
#X connect 24 0 28 0;
#X connect 24 0 25 0;
#X connect 25 0 29 0;
#X connect 26 0 25 0;
#X connect 30 0 32 0;
#X connect 30 0 34 1;
#X connect 31 0 30 0;
#X connect 33 0 15 0;
#X connect 34 0 24 0;
#X connect 35 0 12 0;
#X connect 36 0 21 0;
#X connect 37 0 9 0;
#X connect 37 0 8 0;
#X connect 38 0 18 0;
#X connect 38 0 17 0;
#X connect 39 0 27 0;
#X connect 39 0 26 0;
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[PD] how to capture movement

2009-04-08 Thread Jose Luis Santorcuato
Dear friends, i have a question,¿ how i can capture movement or apply a
matrix for segments detect?... i test the gem help with the x_blob but is
not enough, very inestable...
Cheers from Chile

José Luis

-- 
http://arselectronicachile.blogspot.com/
www.myspace.com/santorcuato
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[PD] movement detect

2009-04-08 Thread Jose Luis Santorcuato
Dear friends, i have a question,¿ how i can capture movement or apply a
matrix for segments detect?... i test the gem help with the x_blob but is
not enough, very inestable...
Cheers from Chile

José Luis

-- 
http://arselectronicachile.blogspot.com/
www.myspace.com/santorcuato
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Re: [PD] Has anyone used PD to read internet radio streams?

2009-04-08 Thread Roman Haefeli



On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 07:41 +0200, danomatika wrote:
 Howdy,
 
 I'm wondering if anyone has used PD to read internet radio streams?
 
in german, one would say 'jein', for yes and no. i did work on a project
with pd controlling radio streams, but i haven't used pd to actually
receive the streams. i found mplayer to be very useful for that for
several reasons:
- it supports many streaming formats (virtually all), no change to get
that in pd directly
- it's highly configurable
- it's commandline based and provides several ways for interaction
- it connects to jack

so what i did, is using pd to control two mplayer instances (in order to
get gapless crossfades between streams), which are routing their audio
signals to pd over jack. the '-af pan'  filter of mplayer is your friend
here.  

the a bit outdated diagram shows, how mplayer and pd are interacting:
http://www.radiosolarkompass.org/tech/rsk_diagramm.png
(with a recent mplayer, the jack.plumbing part isn't needed anymore. you
can route mplayer output to the correct pd input by simply using proper
commandline flags for mplayer. check '-af pan' and '-ao jack' in the man
page).

roman

 I need to make an interactive tuner ...
 
 ---
 Dan Wilcox
 danomatika.com
 robotcowboy.com
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Re: [PD] timing issues in Windows Vista

2009-04-08 Thread Roman Haefeli
i think, the samplingrate, that pd thinks it is using and the one that
it is actually using, are differnt. 

try an [osc~ 440], it will sound like a d.

can't tell, what is causing that confusion. check your soundcard
settings. 1.5 could be related to 32kHz (real) - 48kHz (imaginary)
confusion.

roman


On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 21:09 +0200, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
 Hi,
 This drives me crazy.
 
 I'm trying PD 0.42-4 on Windows Vista. Always used XP before.
 
 Logical time runs 50% slower than real time, i.e. 1000 logical 
 millisecond pass in approximately 1500 real milliseconds.
 Yet there is no abnormal CPU consumption.
 
 Try the attached patch. On any normal Windows XP machine I test it on, 
 the number box will increase one unit every one second.
 
 On my laptop with Windows Vista, which is a Core Duo T9300, it 
 increments every 1.5 seconds approximately.
 
 I haven't tested yet what happens with signals.
 
 Any ideas?
 
 Thanks
 m.
 plain text document attachment (test_time.pd)
 #N canvas 321 345 584 396 12;
 #X obj 233 67 tgl 15 0 empty empty empty 17 7 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 0
 1;
 #X obj 233 128 metro 1000;
 #X obj 229 174 timer;
 #X floatatom 235 258 5 0 0 0 - - -;
 #X obj 228 204 / 1000;
 #X obj 231 94 t f f;
 #X obj 124 139 select 1;
 #X connect 0 0 5 0;
 #X connect 1 0 2 1;
 #X connect 2 0 4 0;
 #X connect 4 0 3 0;
 #X connect 5 0 1 0;
 #X connect 5 1 6 0;
 #X connect 6 0 2 0;
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Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation

2009-04-08 Thread dmotd
hi folks, 

i am somewhat interested in investing some time in pdpedia, but i 
have a few concerns with mediawiki as a container for pd related 
data.

obviously mediawiki is an excellent versioning platform and has a 
strong following for many technical wiki's in the open-source 
community. i think its an excellent format for plain text 
information, which takes the form of tutorials/howto/guide, but as 
an object reference it has a limited scope.

this is especially the case when attempting to pull that information 
into another format (ie.. not html). anything pulled off the server 
using the api needs to be parsed to be made useful in another 
context, and in many cases reparsed to pick out the 
meta-references, and this is without getting to the content which 
is often categorised in an entirely different format.

i have previously invested a fair chunk of time in refencing objects 
in a sql database, while my work was not designed with versioning 
in mind, it was designed to be utilised by pd (dd was the projected 
environment) or pd libs internally, or in other formats like a 
postscript reference or generating pddp formatted helpfiles. i have 
recently started picking up the pieces of this project (which i had 
ceased with the initial announcement of pdpedia).

anyhow, what i am beginning to see a need for is an infrastructure 
like mediawiki which stores pd files rather than plain-text. think 
of it like a categorised + tagged svn. this would be a place where 
people can upload files relating to pd use, examples of usage, 
methods of interfacing and anything else that gets passed around on 
this mailing list. keeping with the same wiki format of edits by 
anyone, and versioning each subsequent edit. then in a similar 
method to mediawiki api calls, pd internally could request a list 
of articles (pd-patches) and dynamically retrieve requested 
articles from the pdwiki. thus making the system much more usable 
within the pd environment.

i think the benefit of this would be quite obvious to pd-users, as 
it has been stated many times by numerous people that a plain text 
wiki reference doesn't really make much sense without the 
interactive characteristics of an actual patch.

this is something i would happily put energies into development, and 
in many ways have already started. i will likely end up building  
something that works in this way anyway, so please throw in 
suggestions, before i get carried away ;)

ciao,

dmotd



On Thursday 09 April 2009 07:25:06 Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
 There are lots of good ideas worth trying.  We've talked about it
 a lot, we just need someone to take charge of it.  I am just too
 overloaded to handle pdpedia on top of everything else.  Who
 wants to own it?

 .hc

 On Apr 1, 2009, at 11:21 AM, Jean-Noël Montagné wrote:
  It would be good to have
  standards on how articles should be formatted and what kind of
  information should be presented.
 
  yes I agree. At the origin in 2006..., I have suggested to some
  french PDers the following features:
 
 
  ---
 --
 
  * a lexicon-dictionary about objects/externals/abstractions (
  Done)
 
  * a category search portal ( one of the most important feature
  for pd newbies ), like in Wikipedia portal
  http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia:Catégories ( to do)
 
  Example of category search:
  PD==Graphics==Video==Live==Effects==Blending== pix_add /
  pix_subtract /pix_diff /pix_composite/ pix_multiply/ PDP_blend
  ( fiction...)
 
  * multilingual structure as Wikipedia ( very important for
  educational uses in the world where people will stay with
  commercial software just for this reason ( France for example))
  (Done)
 
  future options, when the database will be completed enough:
 
  * tools or wiki tags for visualizing patches ( parsing of the
  patch code to create an image of the patch, server side) and
  downloading text patches from PDpedia
 
  * Pdpedia database embedded with PD extended ( when completed)
  for offline consulting
 
  * in PD: a contextual help with access to the related pdpedia
  page (in PD itself or online)
 
 
  ---
 --
 
  About the formatting of one page, I have suggested the
  rubriques:
 
 
  -
 
  (from the body of the page)
 
  Nature of the element (object/external/abstraction/
  Short Definition
  Generalities (long definition)
  Compatibility ( wich versions of pd)
  *
  Inlets
  Outlets
  Arguments
  Messages
  *
  Warnings and incompatibilities
  Tricks and alternative ways to do it
  Examples ( expanded help file+ other examples with pictures),
  links to video examples
  Tutorials on this element, links to videos
  Associated objects, related objects
  Equivalents in similar open source softwares
  *
  Author(s) of the object, links
  Contributors of this page.
 
 
 
  --
 
  (from the infobox)
  name
  

Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation

2009-04-08 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner


I don't think that pdpedia is a replacement or substitute for  
interactive help patches.  But mediawiki is a great tool for getting  
lots of bits of information from a lot of people.  So I think that  
pdpedia could be used as a place to orgnanize content, like reference  
info, links to related algorithms, links to related video tutorials,  
etc.  That material  could then be filtering into the help patches  
themselves.


A pd-help file wiki would be great, but until then, I think pdpedia  
could be useful.


.hc

On Apr 8, 2009, at 10:35 PM, dmotd wrote:


hi folks,

i am somewhat interested in investing some time in pdpedia, but i
have a few concerns with mediawiki as a container for pd related
data.

obviously mediawiki is an excellent versioning platform and has a
strong following for many technical wiki's in the open-source
community. i think its an excellent format for plain text
information, which takes the form of tutorials/howto/guide, but as
an object reference it has a limited scope.

this is especially the case when attempting to pull that information
into another format (ie.. not html). anything pulled off the server
using the api needs to be parsed to be made useful in another
context, and in many cases reparsed to pick out the
meta-references, and this is without getting to the content which
is often categorised in an entirely different format.

i have previously invested a fair chunk of time in refencing objects
in a sql database, while my work was not designed with versioning
in mind, it was designed to be utilised by pd (dd was the projected
environment) or pd libs internally, or in other formats like a
postscript reference or generating pddp formatted helpfiles. i have
recently started picking up the pieces of this project (which i had
ceased with the initial announcement of pdpedia).

anyhow, what i am beginning to see a need for is an infrastructure
like mediawiki which stores pd files rather than plain-text. think
of it like a categorised + tagged svn. this would be a place where
people can upload files relating to pd use, examples of usage,
methods of interfacing and anything else that gets passed around on
this mailing list. keeping with the same wiki format of edits by
anyone, and versioning each subsequent edit. then in a similar
method to mediawiki api calls, pd internally could request a list
of articles (pd-patches) and dynamically retrieve requested
articles from the pdwiki. thus making the system much more usable
within the pd environment.

i think the benefit of this would be quite obvious to pd-users, as
it has been stated many times by numerous people that a plain text
wiki reference doesn't really make much sense without the
interactive characteristics of an actual patch.

this is something i would happily put energies into development, and
in many ways have already started. i will likely end up building
something that works in this way anyway, so please throw in
suggestions, before i get carried away ;)

ciao,

dmotd



On Thursday 09 April 2009 07:25:06 Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

There are lots of good ideas worth trying.  We've talked about it
a lot, we just need someone to take charge of it.  I am just too
overloaded to handle pdpedia on top of everything else.  Who
wants to own it?

.hc

On Apr 1, 2009, at 11:21 AM, Jean-Noël Montagné wrote:

It would be good to have
standards on how articles should be formatted and what kind of
information should be presented.


yes I agree. At the origin in 2006..., I have suggested to some
french PDers the following features:


---
--

* a lexicon-dictionary about objects/externals/abstractions (
Done)

* a category search portal ( one of the most important feature
for pd newbies ), like in Wikipedia portal
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia:Catégories ( to do)

Example of category search:
PD==Graphics==Video==Live==Effects==Blending== pix_add /
pix_subtract /pix_diff /pix_composite/ pix_multiply/ PDP_blend
( fiction...)

* multilingual structure as Wikipedia ( very important for
educational uses in the world where people will stay with
commercial software just for this reason ( France for example))
(Done)

future options, when the database will be completed enough:

* tools or wiki tags for visualizing patches ( parsing of the
patch code to create an image of the patch, server side) and
downloading text patches from PDpedia

* Pdpedia database embedded with PD extended ( when completed)
for offline consulting

* in PD: a contextual help with access to the related pdpedia
page (in PD itself or online)


---
--

About the formatting of one page, I have suggested the
rubriques:


-

(from the body of the page)

Nature of the element (object/external/abstraction/
Short Definition
Generalities (long definition)
Compatibility ( wich versions of pd)
*
Inlets
Outlets

Re: [PD] Has anyone used PD to read internet radio streams?

2009-04-08 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner


I know the locusonus people were using Pd for receiving streams.  Its  
definitely possible.


.hc

On Apr 8, 2009, at 8:14 PM, Roman Haefeli wrote:





On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 07:41 +0200, danomatika wrote:

Howdy,

I'm wondering if anyone has used PD to read internet radio streams?

in german, one would say 'jein', for yes and no. i did work on a  
project

with pd controlling radio streams, but i haven't used pd to actually
receive the streams. i found mplayer to be very useful for that for
several reasons:
- it supports many streaming formats (virtually all), no change to get
that in pd directly
- it's highly configurable
- it's commandline based and provides several ways for interaction
- it connects to jack

so what i did, is using pd to control two mplayer instances (in  
order to

get gapless crossfades between streams), which are routing their audio
signals to pd over jack. the '-af pan'  filter of mplayer is your  
friend

here.

the a bit outdated diagram shows, how mplayer and pd are interacting:
http://www.radiosolarkompass.org/tech/rsk_diagramm.png
(with a recent mplayer, the jack.plumbing part isn't needed anymore.  
you
can route mplayer output to the correct pd input by simply using  
proper
commandline flags for mplayer. check '-af pan' and '-ao jack' in the  
man

page).

roman


I need to make an interactive tuner ...

---
Dan Wilcox
danomatika.com
robotcowboy.com
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