Re: [PD] mapping: path setting hell

2009-04-09 Thread cyrille henry



Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :


On Apr 8, 2009, at 5:59 AM, cyrille henry wrote:




Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :

Inside of the objects themselves, I use always the [mapping/reverse] 
form.  Only in the help patches do I use the [reverse] form.  That 
convention seemed to make sense at the time, but I am not married to it.


since all mapping object are in the same directory, using the  
[reverse] form inside the object will still work on pd-extended.
but it will also make the mapping lib more flexible (you'll be able to 
move the objects / copy them in your patch directory ). So i see this 
as a big improvement of the situation.


do you agree if i change this?



Unfortunately, that's not entirely true, otherwise I would say to change 
it.  Right now, a binary object will trump ANY abstraction, even if it 
is in the same directory.  So if someone loads a binary object called 
reverse, then [reverse] will ALWAYS be that binary, so matter where 
you put reverse.pd or how you load it.  [mapping/reverse] prevents that.

name clash are bad.
curently it's a fact.
things may change in the future, but now nameclash must be avoid.

since there already are nameclash, it's important for a user to have a full 
control of the object used.
i do this by copying abstraction in my patch folder.
it also allow my patch to work latter, when the abstraction have changed.



This is a perfect case of why we should change the load order in Pd.

ok.
change it if you wish. 
but don't find workaround with solution that work only for you.


sorry if i'm rude, but i'm more and more irritated by this problem.
c

 I 
think it should search for all object types in a given path (i.e. .pd 
.pd_linux, .pd_lua, etc.)  THEN it should search the next path.  
Currently the opposite happens: it searches .pd_linux in all paths, then 
the loaders (i.e. .pd_lua) in all paths, then the abstractions in all 
paths.


.hc

 



[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are 
deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from 
scarcity.-John Gilmore




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Re: [PD] mapping: path setting hell

2009-04-09 Thread cyrille henry



Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
...


If there is good code out there, I want to use it, not reinvent it. 
having a complex abstraction to replace this : 


loadbang
$1
moses 0

is overkill. it add complexity to a simple patch.

If 
you use mapping in Pd-extended, you never need to know anything about 
what's happening inside, it just works.

if you don't use pd extended, it just don't work.
i already explain why i don't use pd-extended, and will not change my mind soon.


 With a little bit of effort, 
Pd-vanilla users can also acheive this.  That's why I am fixing up 
libdir.c and these libraries in SVN.


i just don't want to add complexity to a simple thing, just because you think 
it's better.



These libraries were a place for me to experiment with ways of handling 
libraries in Pd easier.

for me it was something for everyday use!
and i basically can't use it the way i want, and the way i made it.

 Some of the experiments failed, but I think 
right now its in a pretty good place.  So try it out the way it is now 
and tell me what doesn't work.



to have mapping/reverse in the object break the way i work with pd for the last 
8 years.

to use [float_argument] that is outside the mapping folder cause problem to. 
(remember the pm mapping presentation @ hangar?)
at least, it could be copy / linked on the mapping directory. the best would be 
of course to replace it with a more simpler code based on 3 simple object. 
(well, to revert the change you made to my objects)

this are the biggest problem i've got.


cyrille



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Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation

2009-04-09 Thread marius schebella
hi dmotd,

your post is great, it reminded me of all the ideas I had before
starting pdpedia.
my main motivation for working on a pd(pedia) object
database/documentation was to help users (including myself) find the
right object for their purpose and help developers by preventing
redundancy in writing new objects. -- I also got stuck by the
limitations of mediawiki.
some of the things, for example that I'd like to see:
make heavy use of *data mining* in existing pd patches: It should be
possible to know, how often an object is used, and how often it is
connected to which other object and which objects share the same
window. it should even be possible to tell the search engine where in
the patch (x/z area) an object was placed.
I want to search for objects related to key words, tags, maybe
categories (although a fixed structure is definitely a bad idea),
libraries, similar objects, sort by all kinds of means (date,
popularity, operating system).
On top of this pd-base there should be a place like *youtube*, where
you can post your own patches, have favorites, have a list of favorite
objects. I know that it is not possible (yet) to play a pd patch
within a browser, but I am sure someone will come up with a firefox
plugin anytime soon.
I also think that people should be able to comment on objects, or rate
them, or have rss feeds if someone posts a new patch that contains a
certain object or is related to a certain topic.
and your point about exchanging data formats is extremely important,
too. I know that mediawiki has a method to import/export - in theory,
but this can by no means compared to a real query api.

of course, maintaining all that information is a hell of a work. that
was the point where the wiki idea came into place (a lot of people
contributing). but after a year of pdpedia I still don't see this
taking off, which makes me want to try out something new.
btw is there any literature or real world examples of how other
groups/open source communities deal with the *lack of
physical/financial resources*?

marius.

2009/4/9 dmotd dm...@gmx.net:
 hi folks,

 i am somewhat interested in investing some time in pdpedia, but i
 have a few concerns with mediawiki as a container for pd related
 data.

 obviously mediawiki is an excellent versioning platform and has a
 strong following for many technical wiki's in the open-source
 community. i think its an excellent format for plain text
 information, which takes the form of tutorials/howto/guide, but as
 an object reference it has a limited scope.

 this is especially the case when attempting to pull that information
 into another format (ie.. not html). anything pulled off the server
 using the api needs to be parsed to be made useful in another
 context, and in many cases reparsed to pick out the
 meta-references, and this is without getting to the content which
 is often categorised in an entirely different format.

 i have previously invested a fair chunk of time in refencing objects
 in a sql database, while my work was not designed with versioning
 in mind, it was designed to be utilised by pd (dd was the projected
 environment) or pd libs internally, or in other formats like a
 postscript reference or generating pddp formatted helpfiles. i have
 recently started picking up the pieces of this project (which i had
 ceased with the initial announcement of pdpedia).

 anyhow, what i am beginning to see a need for is an infrastructure
 like mediawiki which stores pd files rather than plain-text. think
 of it like a categorised + tagged svn. this would be a place where
 people can upload files relating to pd use, examples of usage,
 methods of interfacing and anything else that gets passed around on
 this mailing list. keeping with the same wiki format of edits by
 anyone, and versioning each subsequent edit. then in a similar
 method to mediawiki api calls, pd internally could request a list
 of articles (pd-patches) and dynamically retrieve requested
 articles from the pdwiki. thus making the system much more usable
 within the pd environment.

 i think the benefit of this would be quite obvious to pd-users, as
 it has been stated many times by numerous people that a plain text
 wiki reference doesn't really make much sense without the
 interactive characteristics of an actual patch.

 this is something i would happily put energies into development, and
 in many ways have already started. i will likely end up building
 something that works in this way anyway, so please throw in
 suggestions, before i get carried away ;)

 ciao,

 dmotd



 On Thursday 09 April 2009 07:25:06 Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
 There are lots of good ideas worth trying.  We've talked about it
 a lot, we just need someone to take charge of it.  I am just too
 overloaded to handle pdpedia on top of everything else.  Who
 wants to own it?

 .hc

 On Apr 1, 2009, at 11:21 AM, Jean-Noël Montagné wrote:
  It would be good to have
  standards on how articles should be formatted and 

Re: [PD] auto 1 loops pix_film (and pix_movie?)

2009-04-09 Thread Marco Donnarumma
Exactly. Your example is even better than my description... it could be
suitable for the FLOSS manual in my opinion.
best


On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Jack j...@rybn.org wrote:

 Here a small exemple.++

 Jack


 Le 8 avr. 09 à 16:52, Marco Donnarumma a écrit :

 Yes, Connect the second outlet of [pix_film] to [unpack].
 Then the first outlet of [unpack] will give you the total amount of frames
 of the video you load.
 So you can connect the first outlet of [unpack] to the last inlet of
 [counter]. This will set the maximum value to reach for [counter].
 I use [counter] to play each frame of the video and i send the scratch
 values in its third inlet.

 this is how i do it... but as Derek were suggesting there is the [mod]
 object too.. Derek how do you use it?
 just for curiosity...
 thanks..

 best




 On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Jack j...@rybn.org wrote:


 Le 8 avr. 09 à 10:34, Marco Donnarumma a écrit :

 Hey..
 thanks Derek, yes i've already done what you're saying for my project
 C::NTR::L and i have a simple process which give me dynamically the total
 frames for each video you load.

 With the 2nd output of [pix_film] for exemple ? ;)
 ++

 Jack


 I was asking just to know the truth about it  :)
 Since i'm using this process a lot i could create a specific example about
 this for FLOSS manual. I have this exact process ready in my patches.
 ATM i'm terribly busy, but i'll keep it in mind and contribute asap.
 best..


 Marco



 Hi Marco,

 This has been normal behavior as long as I have been aware of it. That
 doesn't mean that it's not a bug, however ;-)

 If you want looping + scrubbing, a better way would be to build a
 counter with a [mod] object set to the total number of frames in your
 clip, that way you could change the payback speed of the clip and (with
 some adjustments to the counter) skip around in the frames as well as go
 backwards, etc etc. (Nice topic for a FLOSS Manuals tutorial, eh Marius?)

 best!
 Derek

 Marco Donnarumma wrote:
  If i send a [auto 1( to [pix_film] i'm not able anymore to scratch the
  movie sending values to its cold inlet.
  Is this bug connected with the bug you talk about or a normal function
  of the obj.?
 
  besides i noticed pix_movie doens't have this behaviour but is crashing
  on most of the MAC OS i tried with. is this another known issue?


 --
 ::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista :::
 http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista :::
 ---Oblique Strategy # 37:
 Convert a melodic element into a rhythmic element



 --

 Message: 7
 Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:22:36 +0200
 From: marius schebella marius.schebe...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [PD] auto 1 loops pix_film (and pix_movie?)
 To: Derek Holzer de...@umatic.nl
 Cc: pd-list@iem.at
 Message-ID: 49db7dcc.90...@gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

 Derek Holzer wrote:
  Hi Marco,
 
  This has been normal behavior as long as I have been aware of it. That
  doesn't mean that it's not a bug, however ;-)
 
  If you want looping + scrubbing, a better way would be to build a
  counter with a [mod] object set to the total number of frames in your
  clip, that way you could change the payback speed of the clip and (with
  some adjustments to the counter) skip around in the frames as well as
 go
  backwards, etc etc. (Nice topic for a FLOSS Manuals tutorial, eh
 Marius?)
 

 something like that is already there, but not as a separate example
 (yet...)
 marius.



 --
 Marco Donnarumma aka The !S.A.D!



 Multimedia Artist, Live Performer
 Roma, IT

 LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net

 EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net
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 --
 Marco Donnarumma aka The !S.A.D!



 Multimedia Artist, Live Performer
 Roma, IT

 LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net

 EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net






-- 
Marco Donnarumma aka The !S.A.D!



Multimedia Artist, Live Performer
Roma, IT

LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net

EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net
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Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation

2009-04-09 Thread dmotd
yes, i agree that pdpedia/mediawiki has its place, however it is 
another resource for documentation that is currently competing with 
the plone wiki reference at puredata.org. This means that we have 
two distinct references, both apparently supported by the 'pd 
community', and frankly this just creates another point of 
confusion and an area where information can quickly become 
derelict. really we should be attempting to eliminate redundancy 
where possible. 

i am not at all convinced that pdpedia/mediawiki serves as a good 
method for object reference. it is difficult to maintain (a lot of 
manual copy and paste), its search/sort functionality is limited, 
the up/down stream api is severely lacking and most of all it is 
difficult to integrate it into a pd environment (outside of simple 
pddp links which are usually inside the object reference anyhow). 

so yes, pdpedia is convenient at this stage, but i am more 
interested in building an environment that will engage better with 
pd itself, and this is basically what i am proposing.

cheers,
dmotd

On Thursday 09 April 2009 12:59:09 Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
 I don't think that pdpedia is a replacement or substitute for
 interactive help patches.  But mediawiki is a great tool for
 getting lots of bits of information from a lot of people.  So I
 think that pdpedia could be used as a place to orgnanize content,
 like reference info, links to related algorithms, links to
 related video tutorials, etc.  That material  could then be
 filtering into the help patches themselves.

 A pd-help file wiki would be great, but until then, I think
 pdpedia could be useful.

 .hc

 On Apr 8, 2009, at 10:35 PM, dmotd wrote:
  hi folks,
 
  i am somewhat interested in investing some time in pdpedia, but
  i have a few concerns with mediawiki as a container for pd
  related data.
 
  obviously mediawiki is an excellent versioning platform and has
  a strong following for many technical wiki's in the open-source
  community. i think its an excellent format for plain text
  information, which takes the form of tutorials/howto/guide, but
  as an object reference it has a limited scope.
 
  this is especially the case when attempting to pull that
  information into another format (ie.. not html). anything
  pulled off the server using the api needs to be parsed to be
  made useful in another context, and in many cases reparsed to
  pick out the
  meta-references, and this is without getting to the content
  which is often categorised in an entirely different format.
 
  i have previously invested a fair chunk of time in refencing
  objects in a sql database, while my work was not designed with
  versioning in mind, it was designed to be utilised by pd (dd
  was the projected environment) or pd libs internally, or in
  other formats like a postscript reference or generating pddp
  formatted helpfiles. i have recently started picking up the
  pieces of this project (which i had ceased with the initial
  announcement of pdpedia).
 
  anyhow, what i am beginning to see a need for is an
  infrastructure like mediawiki which stores pd files rather than
  plain-text. think of it like a categorised + tagged svn. this
  would be a place where people can upload files relating to pd
  use, examples of usage, methods of interfacing and anything
  else that gets passed around on this mailing list. keeping with
  the same wiki format of edits by anyone, and versioning each
  subsequent edit. then in a similar method to mediawiki api
  calls, pd internally could request a list of articles
  (pd-patches) and dynamically retrieve requested articles from
  the pdwiki. thus making the system much more usable within the
  pd environment.
 
  i think the benefit of this would be quite obvious to pd-users,
  as it has been stated many times by numerous people that a
  plain text wiki reference doesn't really make much sense
  without the interactive characteristics of an actual patch.
 
  this is something i would happily put energies into
  development, and in many ways have already started. i will
  likely end up building something that works in this way anyway,
  so please throw in suggestions, before i get carried away ;)
 
  ciao,
 
  dmotd
 
  On Thursday 09 April 2009 07:25:06 Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
  There are lots of good ideas worth trying.  We've talked about
  it a lot, we just need someone to take charge of it.  I am
  just too overloaded to handle pdpedia on top of everything
  else.  Who wants to own it?
 
  .hc
 
  On Apr 1, 2009, at 11:21 AM, Jean-Noël Montagné wrote:
  It would be good to have
  standards on how articles should be formatted and what kind
  of information should be presented.
 
  yes I agree. At the origin in 2006..., I have suggested to
  some french PDers the following features:
 
 
  -
 -- --
 
  * a lexicon-dictionary about objects/externals/abstractions (
  Done)
 
  * a 

Re: [PD] mapping: path setting hell

2009-04-09 Thread IOhannes m zmoelnig

cyrille henry wrote:



Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
...


If there is good code out there, I want to use it, not reinvent it. 

having a complex abstraction to replace this :
loadbang
$1
moses 0


shouldn't that be [select 0] rather than [moses 0] ?


mfgasd.r
IOhannes



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[PD] embedded preferences...

2009-04-09 Thread IOhannes m zmoelnig

hi all.

i was wondering what the status of embedded preferences (that is: 
using a local preference file that is attached with a certain 
Pd-application rather than the global preferences valid for all Pd's on 
the system) for all platforms and the various tastes of Pd was.


i know that you can embed a preference file in an osx-bundle in 
Pd-extended (at least since 0.40), and iirc this embedding has been 
accepted into Pd-vanilla as well (since version ?)


i seem to remember that a similar mechanism exists on linux.

i cannot remember anything about w32 (which might be more complicated, 
given that with w32 we are using the registry rather than a file that 
ships with Pd)


so my question is:
- is embedding preferences supported on all platforms?
- is embedding preferences supported on both Pd-vanilla and Pd-extended?
- what is the minimum version of Pd i need to acquire the usufruct (with 
regard to taste)



fgamdsr
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] timing issues in Windows Vista

2009-04-09 Thread Matteo Sisti Sette

Weird, weird weird, but solved it seems.

Roman Haefeli escribió:

i think, the samplingrate, that pd thinks it is using and the one that
it is actually using, are differnt. 
try an [osc~ 440], it will sound like a d.


First I tried by using -noaudio and the timing issue disappeared, 
suggesting the diagnostic made by Roman was correct.


Then I switched to ASIO mode and the timing issue disappeared. I don't 
have absolute ear nor a diapason (nor any tuned musical instrument at 
home), but the tone in test Audio and Midi sounds exactly equal to the 
one in my older computer with XP which I know to be a reliable reference.


Also, with ASIO I was able to use the default 70ms latency settings 
without glitches, while in default MMIO mode I had to use 200ms or so.


Now the WEIRD WEIRD thing is that I switched back to MMIO mode, and now 
it still works fine, the timing is still correct.


I never made any save all setting, so I restarted the computer 
(Windows Vista, the one previously presenting the issue), I opened PD 
with its default settings (MMIO) and opened the time test patch, changed 
only the latency setting to 200 in order to avoid glitches, and 
everything still works fine, with correct timing and correct pitch. Even 
changing sampling rate to different values, everything works as 
expected. In MMIO mode. And of course if I switch to ASIO it also works 
fine (and with lower latency).


I assure you that when I wrote I had tested the issue more than once and 
also after restarting the computer at least once.


I can only guess that the simultaneous use of some other application 
accessing the soundcard (IExplorer through Flash or Silverlight plugins, 
quicktime player, winamp, etc) may have messed something up, and 
probably even if I tested more than once even restarting the computer, I 
always had one of such applications running (often I listen to music or 
see stream TV programs and then leave winamp or the browser open and 
minimized and idle without closing it - bad habits).


So the problem seems gone and seems to be related to some sound card 
driver mess, possibly not related to any PD bug.


Thank Roman for the suggestions.

Bye
m.


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Re: [PD] timing issues in Windows Vista

2009-04-09 Thread Matteo Sisti Sette

Weird, weird weird, but solved it seems.

Roman Haefeli escribió:

i think, the samplingrate, that pd thinks it is using and the one that
it is actually using, are differnt. 
try an [osc~ 440], it will sound like a d.


First I tried by using -noaudio and the timing issue disappeared, 
suggesting the diagnostic made by Roman was correct.


Then I switched to ASIO mode and the timing issue disappeared. I don't 
have absolute ear nor a diapason (nor any tuned musical instrument at 
home), but the tone in test Audio and Midi sounds exactly equal to the 
one in my older computer with XP which I know to be a reliable reference.


Also, with ASIO I was able to use the default 70ms latency settings 
without glitches, while in default MMIO mode I had to use 200ms or so.


Now the WEIRD WEIRD thing is that I switched back to MMIO mode, and now 
it still works fine, the timing is still correct.


I never made any save all setting, so I restarted the computer 
(Windows Vista, the one previously presenting the issue), I opened PD 
with its default settings (MMIO) and opened the time test patch, changed 
only the latency setting to 200 in order to avoid glitches, and 
everything still works fine, with correct timing and correct pitch. Even 
changing sampling rate to different values, everything works as 
expected. In MMIO mode. And of course if I switch to ASIO it also works 
fine (and with lower latency).


I assure you that when I wrote I had tested the issue more than once and 
also after restarting the computer at least once.


I can only guess that the simultaneous use of some other application 
accessing the soundcard (IExplorer through Flash or Silverlight plugins, 
quicktime player, winamp, etc) may have messed something up, and 
probably even if I tested more than once even restarting the computer, I 
always had one of such applications running (often I listen to music or 
see stream TV programs and then leave winamp or the browser open and 
minimized and idle without closing it - bad habits).


So the problem seems gone and seems to be related to some sound card 
driver mess, possibly not related to any PD bug.


Thank Roman for the suggestions.

Bye
m.


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Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation

2009-04-09 Thread Frank Barknecht
Hallo,
dmotd hat gesagt: // dmotd wrote:

 i am not at all convinced that pdpedia/mediawiki serves as a good 
 method for object reference. it is difficult to maintain (a lot of 
 manual copy and paste), its search/sort functionality is limited, 
 the up/down stream api is severely lacking and most of all it is 
 difficult to integrate it into a pd environment (outside of simple 
 pddp links which are usually inside the object reference anyhow). 

I believe, reference documentation belongs into the code and additional display
methods should be generated from that. What's currently useful in pdpedia
mostly was generated by a script, but a year or so ago and it may already be
outdated or referring to objects not available anymore (i.e. 
http://wiki.puredata.info/en/mapping/degrees0x2d0x3emapping)

Ciao
-- 
Frank

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Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation

2009-04-09 Thread marius schebella
2009/4/9 Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org:
 Hallo,
 dmotd hat gesagt: // dmotd wrote:

 i am not at all convinced that pdpedia/mediawiki serves as a good
 method for object reference. it is difficult to maintain (a lot of
 manual copy and paste), its search/sort functionality is limited,
 the up/down stream api is severely lacking and most of all it is
 difficult to integrate it into a pd environment (outside of simple
 pddp links which are usually inside the object reference anyhow).

 I believe, reference documentation belongs into the code and additional 
 display
 methods should be generated from that.

hi frank,
please be more elaborate. are you distinguishing between reference and
documentation? is reference documentation the help patches or some
other kind of object reference. are you talking about code comments?
in help patches? or in the C code?

I think that the purpose of documentation is to teach/explain how to
use objects? reference might be something slightly different.

the problem imho is that there is no basis right now on which an
automatic documentation generation could build on. I also think that
autogeneration would be extremely helpful, but... who of the
vanilla/external-developers will reliably stick to any rules? since
developers are bad documentators but you still propose that code
should be the source to generate documentation, how do you think
people (who would like to do some documentation) should contribute?
directly to the source code?

how do you envision that users will search for objects? where do you
think information like tags, similar objects, example patches should
come from?

marius.

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[PD] new arduino mega

2009-04-09 Thread Jose Luis Santorcuato
HI everybody... the new arduino mega is here, but i think the ide program
and the pduino object must update...Hans is possible or is possible
change parameteres in firmata and pduino??? well... just a questions...

Have a nice day friends

Check the blog... the firts video in in Spanish and the secon English

Thanks a lot

Cheers from Chile

José Luis

-- 
http://arselectronicachile.blogspot.com/
www.myspace.com/santorcuato
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Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation

2009-04-09 Thread dmotd
hey marius, 

okay, well i think we're on the same page here, what you describe 
and what's in my head seem to be somewhat aligned. i have a little 
bit of time spare at present and a fair bit of experience 
developing web based content management systems, so hopefully these 
ideas could gather a little momentum.

what is important here is that there is a layer that is consistent 
between all interfaces connecting to it (ie. the database), and the 
way that this inforation is organised and presented can vary 
depending on the interface. 

it is also very important to make sure that the reference is 
maintainable, and where possible self documenting. this is where 
your data mining experiments are valuable, any statistics that we 
can easily gather, help to build the picture of how pd operates, 
and could certainly aid in the development of pd into the future. i 
know there is a limit to what can be automated and often automated 
content is more of a pain than a help, but a few small things may 
help with maintenance issues. 

for example plugging into the output of CIA (which pd is a 
subscriber to), should allow the object database to easily monitor 
changes to the svn, which in turn could create a section 
of 'watched' objects that would provide a list of known changes to 
objects (however small) and warn potential contributors that the 
object internals have changed and the reference may need to be 
updated.

when i initially started building my own database, i wanted to have 
a little picture of the object being described, with all of its 
inlets and outlets present. i decided to draw this using GD (a php 
graphing app), but in order to do so i had to document the inlets 
and outlets that were present, and those that were created 
dynamically on init - which meant documenting the init arguments 
too. this small exercise in futility helped expand the reference to 
include a bit more detail on each class, which i now recognise is 
invaluable to the database (and myself) having a stronger knowledge 
of pd internals. and now i have something that could potentially 
draw *basic* pd patch code without having to use pd as a server, or 
analyse pd patches with finer precision.

another example, i used your CSV file to build a small sh script 
that can analyse a pd patch and an abstraction folder, and list 
missing objects (and unique objects for that matter) required for 
that patch. with a bit more work this could very easily direct 
users to the libraries they're missing. (i realise that loading the 
patch into pd spits out this sort of information anyway, but there 
are times where i would like to check this first - and yes running 
pd-extended probably sorts out everything anyway, but that isn't 
always possible).

while the current list of objects and abstractions is quite 
intimidating, getting at least the object list completed and 
finding methods to extract the rest may be quite easily achieved. i 
think as you say making this database as approachable as possible 
to users, so that they can upload, comment, rank and favourite 
patches/abstractions/objects, will make pd generally a more 
inclusive environment and something that becomes a solution to more 
peoples problems. in a sense the more people that are contributing 
to higher level projects, the more interest there is in documenting 
the lowerlevel objects. i think this is in a sense where hcs is at 
with pd-extended, but what is missing with pdpedia/plone.

for me the plone space is buried in the logic of private spaces - 
places to hold your projects (home folders), but not really to mass 
distribution in a true wiki sense, or as you describe it 
a 'youtube' space (which is indeed a better metaphor for the 
distribution of patches/objects/libs etc)

so yeah.. this seems to be a shared interest and something 
potentially to build upon.. on a side note, i took up this project 
a few years ago when pddb finally breathed its last breath, which 
for me was the best resource for searching the object library 
outside of hassling the pd-list. i still don't think pdpedia has 
filled those shoes, which were in fact very simple and tidy, but i 
digress.. 

thanks for your encouraging response!

dmotd

On Thursday 09 April 2009 18:24:13 marius schebella wrote:
 hi dmotd,

 your post is great, it reminded me of all the ideas I had before
 starting pdpedia.
 my main motivation for working on a pd(pedia) object
 database/documentation was to help users (including myself) find
 the right object for their purpose and help developers by
 preventing redundancy in writing new objects. -- I also got stuck
 by the limitations of mediawiki.
 some of the things, for example that I'd like to see:
 make heavy use of *data mining* in existing pd patches: It should
 be possible to know, how often an object is used, and how often
 it is connected to which other object and which objects share the
 same window. it should even be possible to tell the search engine
 where in 

Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation

2009-04-09 Thread dmotd
On Thursday 09 April 2009 23:55:11 marius schebella wrote:
 2009/4/9 Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org:
  Hallo,
 
  dmotd hat gesagt: // dmotd wrote:
  i am not at all convinced that pdpedia/mediawiki serves as a
  good method for object reference. it is difficult to maintain
  (a lot of manual copy and paste), its search/sort
  functionality is limited, the up/down stream api is severely
  lacking and most of all it is difficult to integrate it into a
  pd environment (outside of simple pddp links which are usually
  inside the object reference anyhow).
 
  I believe, reference documentation belongs into the code and
  additional display methods should be generated from that.

 hi frank,
 please be more elaborate. are you distinguishing between
 reference and documentation? is reference documentation the
 help patches or some other kind of object reference. are you
 talking about code comments? in help patches? or in the C code?

 I think that the purpose of documentation is to teach/explain how
 to use objects? reference might be something slightly different.

 the problem imho is that there is no basis right now on which an
 automatic documentation generation could build on. I also think
 that autogeneration would be extremely helpful, but... who of the
 vanilla/external-developers will reliably stick to any rules?
 since developers are bad documentators but you still propose that
 code should be the source to generate documentation, how do you
 think people (who would like to do some documentation) should
 contribute? directly to the source code?

 how do you envision that users will search for objects? where do
 you think information like tags, similar objects, example patches
 should come from?

 marius.


i'd love to see as much documentation, tags, categories, etc coming 
directly from the c code itself, heck.. why not even build a pd 
class library that stores all of this extraneous info internally! 
but really with the current codebase it is not feasible to make old 
objects adhere to some new documentation api subset, and unlikely 
that new object writers would adhere to that anyhow. that's why its 
important to make documenting pd as simple as possible and as 
straight forward as contributing to any wiki for text. 

frank! your list-abs dynamic reference system is awesome.. that sort 
of thing should be encouraged everywhere, great job!

dmotd




 

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Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation

2009-04-09 Thread dmotd
On Thursday 09 April 2009 23:14:28 Frank Barknecht wrote:
 Hallo,

 dmotd hat gesagt: // dmotd wrote:
  i am not at all convinced that pdpedia/mediawiki serves as a
  good method for object reference. it is difficult to maintain
  (a lot of manual copy and paste), its search/sort functionality
  is limited, the up/down stream api is severely lacking and most
  of all it is difficult to integrate it into a pd environment
  (outside of simple pddp links which are usually inside the
  object reference anyhow).

 I believe, reference documentation belongs into the code and
 additional display methods should be generated from that. What's
 currently useful in pdpedia mostly was generated by a script, but
 a year or so ago and it may already be outdated or referring to
 objects not available anymore (i.e.
 http://wiki.puredata.info/en/mapping/degrees0x2d0x3emapping)

 Ciao

hey frank, 

yes this is exactly my point, though pd is not the first language to 
find methods referenced in documentation are severely outdated. and 
pd is not a text-based language, so text based documentation is 
already a hurdle. what i am interested in developing is a wiki that 
incorporates the pd patcher paradigm, so that reference material 
and examples can be submitted as pd-code. how this is dismantled 
and presented in text w/ diagrams is irrelevant as long as the 
folks looking at a text based reference understand that a greater 
depth to the same reference exists within pd.

hopefully something a little more personalised to the pd project can 
come from these qualms/observations :)

cheers,

dmotdf


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Re: [PD] beat detection

2009-04-09 Thread J. Simon van der Walt
Oddly enough, having had some success with BBCut in SC, I was thinking about
asking about beat tracking in Pd also. This looks interesting;

 [aubioonset~]
 |
 [rhythm]

but... so far I've figured out that aubio doesn't seem to be included in
Pd-extended, that it comes from http://aubio.org/, but beyond that I'm
finding it hard to track down info on what to do next. Any hints as to how
to install it? Ideally an intel binary for OS X 10.4, plus a windows version
as well?

Thanks,

JS 




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Re: [PD] beat detection

2009-04-09 Thread Alexandre Porres
aubio is available at Jamie's Postlude Distribution of Pd-Extended for
mac os only

But it is not working here with me...

jamie?

cheers


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 Today's Topics:

   1. new arduino mega (Jose Luis Santorcuato)
   2. Re: Pdpedia and random generation (dmotd)
   3. Re: Pdpedia and random generation (dmotd)
   4. Re: Pdpedia and random generation (dmotd)
   5. Re: beat detection (J. Simon van der Walt)


 --

 Message: 1
 Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 09:58:23 -0400
 From: Jose Luis Santorcuato santorcuat...@gmail.com
 Subject: [PD] new arduino mega
 To: PD List pd-list@iem.at
 Message-ID:
        4345df630904090658r4bf4f1a4g26c2daa6ec7ee...@mail.gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

 HI everybody... the new arduino mega is here, but i think the ide program
 and the pduino object must update...Hans is possible or is possible
 change parameteres in firmata and pduino??? well... just a questions...

 Have a nice day friends

 Check the blog... the firts video in in Spanish and the secon English

 Thanks a lot

 Cheers from Chile

 Jos? Luis

 --
 http://arselectronicachile.blogspot.com/
 www.myspace.com/santorcuato
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 Message: 2
 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:07:43 +1000
 From: dmotd dm...@gmx.net
 Subject: Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation
 To: marius schebella marius.schebe...@gmail.com
 Cc: pd-list@iem.at
 Message-ID: 20090417.43420.dm...@gmx.net
 Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=iso-8859-1

 hey marius,

 okay, well i think we're on the same page here, what you describe
 and what's in my head seem to be somewhat aligned. i have a little
 bit of time spare at present and a fair bit of experience
 developing web based content management systems, so hopefully these
 ideas could gather a little momentum.

 what is important here is that there is a layer that is consistent
 between all interfaces connecting to it (ie. the database), and the
 way that this inforation is organised and presented can vary
 depending on the interface.

 it is also very important to make sure that the reference is
 maintainable, and where possible self documenting. this is where
 your data mining experiments are valuable, any statistics that we
 can easily gather, help to build the picture of how pd operates,
 and could certainly aid in the development of pd into the future. i
 know there is a limit to what can be automated and often automated
 content is more of a pain than a help, but a few small things may
 help with maintenance issues.

 for example plugging into the output of CIA (which pd is a
 subscriber to), should allow the object database to easily monitor
 changes to the svn, which in turn could create a section
 of 'watched' objects that would provide a list of known changes to
 objects (however small) and warn potential contributors that the
 object internals have changed and the reference may need to be
 updated.

 when i initially started building my own database, i wanted to have
 a little picture of the object being described, with all of its
 inlets and outlets present. i decided to draw this using GD (a php
 graphing app), but in order to do so i had to document the inlets
 and outlets that were present, and those that were created
 dynamically on init - which meant documenting the init arguments
 too. this small exercise in futility helped expand the reference to
 include a bit more detail on each class, which i now recognise is
 invaluable to the database (and myself) having a stronger knowledge
 of pd internals. and now i have something that could potentially
 draw *basic* pd patch code without having to use pd as a server, or
 analyse pd patches with finer precision.

 another example, i used your CSV file to build a small sh script
 that can analyse a pd patch and an abstraction folder, and list
 missing objects (and unique objects for that matter) required for
 that patch. with a bit more work this could very easily direct
 users to the libraries they're missing. (i realise that loading the
 patch into pd spits out this sort of information anyway, but there
 are times where i would like to check this first - and yes running
 pd-extended probably sorts out everything anyway, but that isn't
 always

Re: [PD] beat detection

2009-04-09 Thread J. Simon van der Walt
Aha, yes, now found and I downloaded Jamie's Postlude, but the tar.bz2
wouldn't even decompress correctly? Mac OS 10.4

JS




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Re: [PD] embedded preferences...

2009-04-09 Thread Miller Puckette
I think this is a good idea, but don't know in detail how to do it.
Patches should be able to have a say as to what they prefer (beyond
what's available via the declare object) but they can't just smash over
everything - for instance, they might not know what audio device they
should use.

O've started putting local config files in some of my patches for which
I have versions for 3 different audio setups the patch has to run in -
I just use loadbang and textfile :)

Miller
On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 12:56:09PM +0200, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
 hi all.
 
 i was wondering what the status of embedded preferences (that is: 
 using a local preference file that is attached with a certain 
 Pd-application rather than the global preferences valid for all Pd's on 
 the system) for all platforms and the various tastes of Pd was.
 
 i know that you can embed a preference file in an osx-bundle in 
 Pd-extended (at least since 0.40), and iirc this embedding has been 
 accepted into Pd-vanilla as well (since version ?)
 
 i seem to remember that a similar mechanism exists on linux.
 
 i cannot remember anything about w32 (which might be more complicated, 
 given that with w32 we are using the registry rather than a file that 
 ships with Pd)
 
 so my question is:
 - is embedding preferences supported on all platforms?
 - is embedding preferences supported on both Pd-vanilla and Pd-extended?
 - what is the minimum version of Pd i need to acquire the usufruct (with 
 regard to taste)
 
 
 fgamdsr
 IOhannes



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[PD] formatting replies (was: Re: beat detection)

2009-04-09 Thread Ben Baker-Smith
Could you please try to avoid pasting the entire Pd-List Digest in your reply?

-- 
http://benbakersmith.com

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[PD] Pd FLOSS Manual Update pt 1

2009-04-09 Thread Derek Holzer

Dear list,

the book sprint for the Pd FLOSS Manual last weekend went very well! 
Several writers and proofreaders joined us at each location in New York 
City and Berlin, as well as remote contributors online (see contributors 
below).


The good news is that quite a lot of content was generated over the 
weekend, including the beginnings of entirely new sections on GEM, MIDI, 
Network Data and Sensors. You can see the work-in-progress FLOSS Manual 
via the editing interface here:


http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/WebHome

The not-so-good news is that most of these new sections are in limbo! 
Next month, Adam and I hope to publish version 1.0 of the Pure Data 
FLOSS Manual to the front page of the FLOSS Manuals site for public viewing:


http://en.flossmanuals.net/

The chapters that will be included in Version 1.0 will be:

INTRODUCTION
INSTALLING
GETTING STARTED
THE INTERFACE
AUDIO TUTORIALS
DATAFLOW TUTORIALS
STREAMING
LIST OF OBJECTS
APPENDICES

But in order to do this, some of the chapters in each section need some 
improvement. Here's what needs to happen immediately. Please take a look 
and see if you can help!


ALL CHAPTERS
--Proofreading for spelling, simplicity, new-user-friendliness and 
consistent tone (see INSTALLING, GETTING STARTED, THE INTERFACE and 
AUDIO TUTORIALS chapters for style and format examples).


AUDIO TUTORIALS___

- This section is almost done. What remains is to make a proper 
tutorial out of it... i.e. that the examples in the chapter follow a 
story which leads up the construction of a simple synthesizer. Due to 
changes in structure of the chapters inside, this needs updating, but I 
will work on it.
- In general, structure, tone and content of these chapters should 
serve as guide for the rest of the manual.
- I would like to see all sections follow this tutorial model, of 
building up a project from the various elements introduced in each chapter.
- keep in mind that other sections (such as MIDI, NETWORK DATA, 
SENSORS, etc) can build on examples started in this chapter, so that the 
whole manual is interconnected and has a proper storyline.


* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/Tables
--where does this go? Dataflow or Audio? (Audio I think)
--Would be good to integrate with 
http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/ArraysGraphsTables

--I'd like to crop screenshots to get rid of menu bar
--Incomplete, needs expansion and also loop it and play sections parts
--Could this also be structured like tutorial rather than taxonomy?

DATAFLOW

* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/Messages
--Looks very good!

* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/Math
--I guess it isn't necessary to explain how [+], [-], [*] and [/] work. 
 Check for tone.

--Bit twiddling: empty
--Expr: empty
--Audio math: empty

* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/Lists
--Needs more than taxonomy, i.e. real world examples!

* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/OrderOfOperations
--Needs a little attention, but I'm not sure, maybe simpler examples, 
clearer screenshots, explain object abbreviations in-line if used


* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/WirelessConnections
--Examples too busy, need to be simpler!!
--Text doesn't really connect to examples

* Subpatches, Abstractions  Dollarsigns
--These should all be in one chapter, explaining how to make reusable 
patches with nice interfaces, rather than atomized into different 
chapters(title = Patch Management?)


* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/Subpatches
--Needs final real world example, maybe in connection with abstractions 
+ GoP


* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/Abstractions
--Tie in with Patch Management (to be created)
--Better examples!

* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/DollarSigns
--Get rid of this chapter, confusing collision with dollar signs in messages
--Better examples, explained in-line in text
--Tie in with Patch Management (to be created)
--All examples are not saved anywhere!

* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/GraphOnParent
--Move to Patch Management (to be created)
--Not completely explained (colored background canvas)
--No colors in Pd patch screenshots please!

* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/ArraysGraphsTables
--Check text for clarity, accuracy, simplicity
--Redo screenshots with antialiased text please!

___LIST OF OBJECTS
- Table format doesn't work in some browsers (Adam Hyde will look into 
this)


GLOSSARY
- HTML tables don't work well here, Adam Hyde will reformat text with 
h1, h2 and h3 tags




...and finally, THE CONTRIBUTORS!

Here are the folks that helped us rock last weekend, in no particular order:

AdamHyde
DerekHolzer
HansChristophSteiner
ScottFitzgerald
VincentRioux
PatrickDavison
JoaoPais
ServandoBarreiro
KorayTahiroglu
MariusSchebella
JeremySchaller
MaxNeupert
EvanRaskob
GeorgWerner
AlexandrePorres
JayMaechtlen
RomanHaefeli

[PD] Pd FLOSS Manual Update pt 2

2009-04-09 Thread Derek Holzer

So here is part two!

The following chapters were newly created during the Book Sprint. We'd 
really like to see them come together, but we don't think they will be 
anywhere near ready before we decide to publish the version 1.0. Futher 
work on these chapters is also appreciated, but only after the chapters 
we have marked for inclusion in the 1.0 are complete. Writing, editing 
and proofreading on these chapters can continue as normal, and when we 
are ready for a second release (now with GEM + SENSORS!) then we will 
include them.


CHAPTERS FOR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT, not to be included in upcoming 1.0 
release:


GEM
SENSORS
MIDI
NETWORK DATA

When the version 1.0 is completed, and these chapters are also fixed, 
then we can consider a paper publication!!


Here are the issues and places for improvement on each chapter. Again, 
we welcome improvements to these chapters, but if you are going to spend 
any time on this manual in the next few weeks, it would make more sense 
to focus on the chapters marked for publication (see Part 1 of this update):


GEM_

- These chapters need a lot of work to be anywhere near complete!

- My suggestion is to do more tutorial-based stuff, like how to 
sections, rather than break down the material by taxonomy (which is how 
it is already documented elsewhere). Thus, How to VJ with Images and 
Video using GEM and How to Create 3D Animations using GEM would be 
preferable to existing system.


- Perhaps rather than single GEM heading, each of these could be 
section heading with chapters beneath them? In such a case, the chapters 
beneath each section should follow some logical progression from one to 
the other, leading towards the goal of VJing or doing animations.


- Also some of the examples are far too complex, and rely on arcane 
systems like [import] or objects with severe nameclashes like [counter] 
which are traps for new users and should be avoided!


* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/GEMIntroduction
--Check for tone, perhaps more introduction and less credits, explain 
basic parts better (i.e. 2D and 3D graphics and animation, realtime 
image and video processing, and particles)

--Show screenshot of help patches + examples in Pd Browser?

* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/GEMBasics
--Mention Red Book and other technical OpenGL info later, it's not 
needed in beginners introduction, skip immediately to rendering
--Re: [gemwin] question in text (is this true?): please verify this 
information or cut it!
--In general, would be good to concentrate on doing things rather than 
exhaustively explaining technical details

--Re: [pix] objects save this for chapter on it.
--Perhaps what is needed here is overview of GEM functions, and then 
each chapter can deal with them independently as part of unified 
tutorials (VJing/Animation)
--Section (or new chapter) on setting up second screen for live 
performance for each OS!


* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/GEMImagesMoviesAndVideo
--This could really use less of reprinting helppatches, and more how to 
do things, like:
Using [metro]/[float] counter to drive frame playback (changing 
playback speed or going backwards)

Using [mod] and [+] to create smaller loops within film
Use [random] to granulate film
Use pix effects (where to insert in gemlist)(then refer to later 
chapter for more details, or work into single VJ tutorial as suggested 
above)

--Section on video formats for each OS is essential

* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/GEMVideoMixer
--I would like to see [alpha] plus [colorRGB] used in how to do simple 
crossfader instead of [pix_mix].

--Explanations could be helped more towards clarity.
--Re: recommendation to create abstractions: either explain this 
inline or direct reader to Patch Management section (to be created) 
which will cover subpatches, abstractions, etc
--Webcam: needs Linux info on getting video devices in, there are 
probably other flags which need to be shown as well


* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/GEMPixEffects
--Please don't use a PiDiP object [colorgrid] in a GEM tutorial!!! 
(Also not cross platform!)
--Can this tutorial be done without need to import? (i.e. used normal 
counter instead of external?) I really don't agree with using objects 
that have such bad name clash issues, like [counter]
--The [send] and [receive] are abbreviated (first bad) and not explained 
in tutorial (second bad)

--In general, examples are too complex, please simplify!

* http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/GEMSavingAndRecording
--Same problem as above, please don't [import] as it makes it much more 
complicated to explain whole patch. Basic objects available in 
Pd-Extended are assumed, anything else should either be skipped or 
extensively explained in line!
--While the toggle for turning gemwin on and off is useful, it is not 
explained in line and in general adds unneeded 

Re: [PD] [OT] Re: DIY GSoC: getting those projects done

2009-04-09 Thread Rich E
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote:
 On Mon, 6 Apr 2009, Chris McCormick wrote:

 No, that's not at all the reason I think that a format like JSON or YAML
 would be useful. It's more to do with patches being more widely and easily
 parseable, mashable, etc. It's to do with interoperating with more programs
 than just Pd itself. Sure, we could do this and that, and we could use 'a
 bit of imagination' but the current format of Pd patches is not friendly or
 popular. I'd rather have a patch format that plays nice with other programs
 and is easily human readable.

 Ok, you know what playing nice means and what human readable means, I can't
 help you with that at all. I didn't watch the infomercials about JSON, so I
 don't know how amazingly easier than everything else it is.

I sometimes would like to write a part of a patch in python, like say
all the audio files in one directory, each in a seperate array, and
then load it in pd.  This can be done completely in pd, but for
reasons I don't yet understand (other than it is quite easy to crash
pd when dynamic patching), it is not widely supported.

Writing this patch in python with the current format would just be
messy. Doing it in JSON or YAML would be straightforward.

Maybe, as more of a proof of concept, a JSON-pd format file converter
can be made?

regards,
Rich

 How many parsers are there which read Pd patches? One mainly, maybe other
 obscure ones which I don't know about, and some that I have written which
 nobody knows about. How many parsers are there for the JSON format?
 Hundreds,
 in hundreds of different languages.

 After the parser is ready, you still have to write the programme that will
 actually do something useful with the patch that has been read and parsed,
 and that will most likely the part of the work that will be the most
 significant, especially if you don't bother about handling backslashed
 spaces properly, because pd doesn't anyway.

 If you already have a [netreceive] in the target language, you already have
 a parser for much of the pd format...

 Yep, I get what you are saying, but you are unfortunately wrong. Nobody
 cares about Pd's syntax except our small band of merry Pd people.

 So why would those people who don't care about Pd's syntax would ever care
 about processing Pd patches? It just doesn't make any sense.

 Even your point about not knowing how JSON (or YAML or whatever) is going
 to be used is irrelevant because of the gain in interoperability with other
 programs and people.

 I don't think any interoperability is going to be gained from using a
 JSON-based format (that you still haven't specified) because no non-Pd
 people will want to process patches. Forget everything about the format
 being readable by real human beings (by opposition to those damn pd users),
 a JSON-based patch format will only achieve one thing, allow the JSON fans
 to say that Pd supports JSON.

 Yes, that's very true. I guess with the idea of a very social format like
 YAML or JSON

 Once you consider the actual number of XML/YAML/JSON users who would be
 processing any pd patch if it were coded in their favourite encoding, then
 you wouldn't feel nearly as lonely with the Pd format, really. I'm expecting
 you to be disappointed by what JSON will bring to Pd.

 In any case, it's still easy to make a Pd-to-JSON converter, so, invent
 yourself a suitable JSON-subformat for converting your Pd patches to, and
 see whether any JSON user cares, and it will save us having to convert all
 of our patches to JSON, really.

 I am trying to advocate a language that interoperates nicely and easily
 with other languages and hence isn't a small island of software

 Be careful of all of the details of the software, which is everything else
 that isn't already covered by JSON, which is almost everything of what makes
 a patch a patch and what makes pd pd (or what makes some other patching
 system be what it is). The superficial part of the syntax is superficial but
 it's easy to exaggerate it at the expense of all of the depth of the syntax.

  _ _ __ ___ _  _ _ ...
 | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec
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[PD] writing to iowarrior in pd

2009-04-09 Thread sqr harrie


hi list!

for a while now, i am trying to hook my iowarrior56 (from codemercs.com) up 
with pd, running on my OSX10.4. i have no problems with reading the state of 
the pins using the HID object in pd. but now i would like to reverse it (or: 
switching the pin-states on and off, controlled from pd to the iowarrior). but 
so far, i didnt succeed with that at all.

while looking on the internet for clues, i came across the same question in an 
old thread of this list. i have read that there's a possibility that there 
should be an external written for it. the sdk is released on the 
codemercs-site, and word on the streets tells me that it should be simple...but 
since i have practically zero experience with c-programming (or writing 
externals for pd for that matter), i have no clue to do that. 

therefor my question: could i just use the HID-object (but what should the 
arguments then be for writing the pins?), or maybe some other known object? 
(since this iowarrior is similar to the arduino series, maybe the
pduino-object could work. but then again, the arduino probably would use other 
arguments)

or, perhaps someone already wrote an external for it? 

thanks in advance!
twan


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[PD] pd and recent jackd

2009-04-09 Thread joel silvestre
Hi all,

I'm afraid there's something wrong with Pd and new jackd releases
(0.116.x). 
Pd gives some ; watchdog: signaling pd... and audio dropouts.
The watchdog errors appears only on a gui-less pd, I can't say if it's
the same for dropouts as the gui is likely to produce some audio
clicks. 

Everything performs well with old jackd ver 109.2.

I tried different revision of pd-extended from 0.39.2 to  0.41.4,
watchdog and dropouts are here..

All the best
Joël





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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd FLOSS Manual Update pt 1

2009-04-09 Thread Alexandre Porres
I have to teach in the end of the month, it will be a nice opportunity
to proof read this before, and collaborate with the feedback you want.
GOOD JOB!
cheers

On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Derek Holzer de...@umatic.nl wrote:
 Dear list,

 the book sprint for the Pd FLOSS Manual last weekend went very well! Several
 writers and proofreaders joined us at each location in New York City and
 Berlin, as well as remote contributors online (see contributors below).

 The good news is that quite a lot of content was generated over the weekend,
 including the beginnings of entirely new sections on GEM, MIDI, Network Data
 and Sensors. You can see the work-in-progress FLOSS Manual via the editing
 interface here:

 http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/WebHome

 The not-so-good news is that most of these new sections are in limbo! Next
 month, Adam and I hope to publish version 1.0 of the Pure Data FLOSS Manual
 to the front page of the FLOSS Manuals site for public viewing:

 http://en.flossmanuals.net/

 The chapters that will be included in Version 1.0 will be:

 INTRODUCTION
 INSTALLING
 GETTING STARTED
 THE INTERFACE
 AUDIO TUTORIALS
 DATAFLOW TUTORIALS
 STREAMING
 LIST OF OBJECTS
 APPENDICES

 But in order to do this, some of the chapters in each section need some
 improvement. Here's what needs to happen immediately. Please take a look and
 see if you can help!

 ALL CHAPTERS
 --Proofreading for spelling, simplicity, new-user-friendliness and
 consistent tone (see INSTALLING, GETTING STARTED, THE INTERFACE and AUDIO
 TUTORIALS chapters for style and format examples).

 AUDIO TUTORIALS___

 - This section is almost done. What remains is to make a proper tutorial
 out of it... i.e. that the examples in the chapter follow a story which
 leads up the construction of a simple synthesizer. Due to changes in
 structure of the chapters inside, this needs updating, but I will work on
 it.
 - In general, structure, tone and content of these chapters should serve as
 guide for the rest of the manual.
 - I would like to see all sections follow this tutorial model, of building
 up a project from the various elements introduced in each chapter.
 - keep in mind that other sections (such as MIDI, NETWORK DATA, SENSORS,
 etc) can build on examples started in this chapter, so that the whole manual
 is interconnected and has a proper storyline.

 * http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/Tables
 --where does this go? Dataflow or Audio? (Audio I think)
 --Would be good to integrate with
 http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/ArraysGraphsTables
 --I'd like to crop screenshots to get rid of menu bar
 --Incomplete, needs expansion and also loop it and play sections parts
 --Could this also be structured like tutorial rather than taxonomy?

 DATAFLOW

 * http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/Messages
 --Looks very good!

 * http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/Math
 --I guess it isn't necessary to explain how [+], [-], [*] and [/] work. 
 Check for tone.
 --Bit twiddling: empty
 --Expr: empty
 --Audio math: empty

 * http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/Lists
 --Needs more than taxonomy, i.e. real world examples!

 * http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/OrderOfOperations
 --Needs a little attention, but I'm not sure, maybe simpler examples,
 clearer screenshots, explain object abbreviations in-line if used

 * http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/WirelessConnections
 --Examples too busy, need to be simpler!!
 --Text doesn't really connect to examples

 * Subpatches, Abstractions  Dollarsigns
 --These should all be in one chapter, explaining how to make reusable
 patches with nice interfaces, rather than atomized into different
 chapters(title = Patch Management?)

 * http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/Subpatches
 --Needs final real world example, maybe in connection with abstractions +
 GoP

 * http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/Abstractions
 --Tie in with Patch Management (to be created)
 --Better examples!

 * http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/DollarSigns
 --Get rid of this chapter, confusing collision with dollar signs in messages
 --Better examples, explained in-line in text
 --Tie in with Patch Management (to be created)
 --All examples are not saved anywhere!

 * http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/GraphOnParent
 --Move to Patch Management (to be created)
 --Not completely explained (colored background canvas)
 --No colors in Pd patch screenshots please!

 * http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/ArraysGraphsTables
 --Check text for clarity, accuracy, simplicity
 --Redo screenshots with antialiased text please!

 ___LIST OF OBJECTS
 - Table format doesn't work in some browsers (Adam Hyde will look into
 this)

 GLOSSARY
 - HTML tables don't work well here, Adam Hyde will reformat text with h1,
 h2 and h3 tags



 ...and finally, THE CONTRIBUTORS!

 Here are the folks that 

Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation

2009-04-09 Thread Alexandre Porres
well, to host a convention here is definately and effort to put
S.America in the game.

What you are discussing feels to me like one of the best issues to
raise up in Round Tables.

Actually, Round tables were said to be proposed here on the list, so
lets talk about this more later on.

I am up for parties alright...

2009/4/9 Jean-Noël Montagné j...@rom.fr:

 Salut Hans and PD community

 First of all, thank you very much for all work you have done for the idea
 and server services. I am very busy for working for living, but also for
 Bricolabs.net projects ( bricophone.org, fluxtation.org, oswash.org), and I
 still can't handle the pdpedia project yet.

 I think there could be newcomers to PD ready to assume this kind of
 responsability, individually or collectivelly. Did I have understood that
 Alexandre Porres and other PD users from Brazil could help us to find some
 people in south america ?
 it would be good to displace more the center of gravity of PD users in
 direction of the south ! and for many reasons Brazil will be the next PD
 country/community...
 Some people also have some grants to work on open source, wich is impossible
 in France for example...
 The profile needed is someone able to do some Wikipedia maintaining and
 hacking.

 Cheers,
 JN

 PS: what about a giant multilingual PDpedia party, PDFlossManual Party,
 PDVideopediaParty in the next PDconvention ?


 There are lots of good ideas worth trying.  We've talked about it a lot,
 we just need someone to take charge of it.  I am just too overloaded to
 handle pdpedia on top of everything else.  Who wants to own it?

 .hc




-- 
Alexandre Torres Porres
cel. (11)8179-6226
Website: http://porres.googlepages.com/home
http://www.myspace.com/alexandretorresporres

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Re: [PD] mapping: path setting hell

2009-04-09 Thread cyrille henry

moses 0 filter also negative arguments, they usually are unwanted.
but of course sel 0 is used the rest of the time.

c

IOhannes m zmoelnig a écrit :

cyrille henry wrote:



Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
...


If there is good code out there, I want to use it, not reinvent it. 

having a complex abstraction to replace this :
loadbang
$1
moses 0


shouldn't that be [select 0] rather than [moses 0] ?


mfgasd.r
IOhannes




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Re: [PD] pd and recent jackd

2009-04-09 Thread Martin Schied

Hi!

joel silvestre schrieb:

I'm afraid there's something wrong with Pd and new jackd releases
(0.116.x). 
Pd gives some ; watchdog: signaling pd... and audio dropouts.

The watchdog errors appears only on a gui-less pd, I can't say if it's
the same for dropouts as the gui is likely to produce some audio
clicks. 

  
This might be the same issues which bothered me some time ago. Try 
running jack using '-R' and '-P' parameters together like:


jackd -R -P 15 -d alsa 

You can also set -P in qjackctl

For me everything above 11 worked without these errors on alsa, for 
firewire audio I had to set it slightly higher.


Also have a look at what roman said in this thread, which was quite helpful:
http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2009-04/069267.html

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: DIY GSoC: getting those projects done

2009-04-09 Thread glerm soares
2009/4/9 Rich E reakina...@gmail.com



 Writing this patch in python with the current format would just be
 messy. Doing it in JSON or YAML would be straightforward.

 Maybe, as more of a proof of concept, a JSON-pd format file converter
 can be made?


Could  be done for  a customized CMS for web documentation, something made
with some python parsers and a MVC web framework like Django... (Ruby fans
will say Ruby on Rails, but you got the idea)...

This could be a good reason to think about a Puredata_abstraction to
JSONparser, as was discussed in other thread (Pdpedia and random generation
)... Since JSON can be parsed even to a RSS format easily... See that? Read
new patches docs at the RSS news?

Than also the string issues could be solved editing .pd documentation in
text based editors.  And even some web based WSIWYG editor that would
generate pd  readable documentation :)
Could be?


té+

glerm
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd FLOSS Manual Update pt 1

2009-04-09 Thread glerm soares
2009/4/9 glerm soares organi...@gmail.com

 Since it's GPL,
 I will translate some of them to brazilian portuguese and put into
 http://artesanato.devolts.org website, ok? This is a new brazilian hacklab
 weblog we just started...


In fact, I don't think I will translate litteraly, but use as some kind of
guide for topics, and maybe use some pictures and examples... Any problem?

see ya

glerm
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[PD] Creation Argument Weirdness

2009-04-09 Thread Jonathan Wilkes
Hi,
I think I may have found a bug.  After changing the abstraction
argument, nothing comes out of the outlet to the parent patch.  I'm on
windows; can someone confirm before I post it on the bug tracker?

Thanks,
Jonathan


  

patch.pd
Description: application/puredata


abstraction.pd
Description: application/puredata
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Re: [PD] Creation Argument Weirdness

2009-04-09 Thread hard off
yeah weird.  same thing here.
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Re: [PD] Creation Argument Weirdness

2009-04-09 Thread Matt Barber

 Hi,
 I think I may have found a bug.  After changing the abstraction
 argument, nothing comes out of the outlet to the parent patch.  I'm on
 windows; can someone confirm before I post it on the bug tracker?


Same over here.  As a very limited hack, you can throw a [pipe 0] in,
but dataflow ordering gets screwed up.  See attached.

M


abstraction.pd
Description: Binary data
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Re: [PD] mapping: path setting hell

2009-04-09 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner


On Apr 9, 2009, at 2:33 AM, cyrille henry wrote:




Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :

On Apr 8, 2009, at 5:59 AM, cyrille henry wrote:



Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :

Inside of the objects themselves, I use always the [mapping/ 
reverse] form.  Only in the help patches do I use the [reverse]  
form.  That convention seemed to make sense at the time, but I am  
not married to it.


since all mapping object are in the same directory, using the   
[reverse] form inside the object will still work on pd-extended.
but it will also make the mapping lib more flexible (you'll be  
able to move the objects / copy them in your patch directory ). So  
i see this as a big improvement of the situation.


do you agree if i change this?
Unfortunately, that's not entirely true, otherwise I would say to  
change it.  Right now, a binary object will trump ANY abstraction,  
even if it is in the same directory.  So if someone loads a binary  
object called reverse, then [reverse] will ALWAYS be that binary,  
so matter where you put reverse.pd or how you load it.  [mapping/ 
reverse] prevents that.

name clash are bad.
curently it's a fact.
things may change in the future, but now nameclash must be avoid.

since there already are nameclash, it's important for a user to have  
a full control of the object used.

i do this by copying abstraction in my patch folder.
it also allow my patch to work latter, when the abstraction have  
changed.


Copying the abstraction into the same folder as the project will not  
prevent the problem I described above.  As things are, that's not a  
solution. I think it'll work most of time, like most of these methods  
we discuss back and forth.


The namespace prefix like [mapping/reverse] is also not infallable,  
but it is a lot less likely to be affected by nameclashes, since there  
would have to be both a folder and a file named the same.  It seems to  
me a good starting place.  In any case, nameclashes are an old issue,  
many people have tackled it, I think we can learn from them and make a  
Pd-ish implementation of namespaces/import that is not complicated.


I think we can make a solution that always works.  I am not satisfied  
with just using the current situation.  I've been burned too many  
times in projects and while teaching workshops and classes by name  
conflicts.  The output~ one is a recent example.


.hc



This is a perfect case of why we should change the load order in Pd.

ok.
change it if you wish. but don't find workaround with solution that  
work only for you.


sorry if i'm rude, but i'm more and more irritated by this problem.
c

I think it should search for all object types in a given path  
(i.e. .pd .pd_linux, .pd_lua, etc.)  THEN it should search the next  
path.  Currently the opposite happens: it searches .pd_linux in all  
paths, then the loaders (i.e. .pd_lua) in all paths, then the  
abstractions in all paths.

.hc
 [W 
]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are  
deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from  
scarcity.-John Gilmore

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collar temp pool day.  - “Hijab Scene #2, by Mohja Kahf




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Re: [PD] (Ask) Master Degree in New Media Arts

2009-04-09 Thread Adityo Pratomo
Wow, thank you so much everybody, now I think I have to prepare my
portofolio, as you guys have given me so much information on where to
continue my study.

Thank you very much everyone! :D
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Re: [PD] Pdpedia and random generation

2009-04-09 Thread dmotd
sorry, i meant wiki as a shorthand for software revision control, so 
that there is a trace history of edits and the database can be 
exported at a given revision.

interesting ideas however, i admit i'm not completely familiar with 
the JSON format, but i do understand the basis behind this request. 
definitely something to think about.

dmotd

On Friday 10 April 2009 05:56:54 glerm soares wrote:
 2009/4/9 dmotd dm...@gmx.net

  what i am interested in developing is a wiki that
  incorporates the pd patcher paradigm, so that reference
  material and examples can be submitted as pd-code.

 This is so far the best solution.

 But why wiki?  I think it should be done in a customized CMS,
 something made with some python parsers and a MVC web framework
 like Django... (Ruby fans will say Ruby on Rails, but you got the
 idea)...

 This could be a good reason to think about a
 Puredata_abstraction to JSONparser, that was discussed in other
 thread (DIY GSoC)... Since JSON can be parsed even to a RSS
 format easily... See that? Read new patches docs at the RSS news?

 Than also the string issues could be solved editing .pd
 documentation in text based editors.  And even some web based
 WSIWYG editor that would generate pd  readable
 documentation :)
 Could be?


 té+

 glerm



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