Re: [PD] pix_record issues with geos and frames per second
In terms of recording the Geos here's a sample patch of how I might do that. Idea, method, and code stolen liberally from Marius Schebella's posts to this list. In terms of framerate, I am not sure but I would have guessed that you could either send [auto 0( to [pix_record] then bang [pix_record] at the framerate you wish or change [gemwin] to be the framerate you wish and send [auto 1( to [pix_record] . If framerate doesn't seem to be matching what you expect, I wonder if [pix_record] is having trouble keeping up due to CPU load. You might try an uncompressed format for your codec. -John Derrick Barnicoat wrote: Hello, I am very much a newbie to PD/GEM and I just recently created my first video mixer/processer. I am using pix_mix to mix a video of an improvised performance I did with a dancer mixed with itself. I stretched each video over a cube geo. It is 2 chanels. One chanel is an uneffected version of the video. The other video has pix_rtx, pix_lumaoffset, pix_contrast, colorRGB with alpha, and pix_rgb2hsv as filters. Each cube has sliders assigned to control translation, rotation, and scale in unison. There are also three metro objects that control several inputs of the filters. Everything works fine as far as live performance but I want to record the performance as a video file so I can send a version of it to the dancer and perhaps share it via youtube or another video sharing site. I have made various attempts using pix_record and pix_snap objects but the results have been disappointing in various ways. The first attempts resulted in a .mov file but at the wrong fps and thus to slow to match the audio track. As I understand it pix_record only outputs 20fps files but I have a dialog that offers other options. The problem is the dialog closes the gemwin everytime I try to use it and the dialog seems to be set to 12fps. So I tried importing 12fps and 20fps versions of the same video. This was before I added the pix_snap object which I added to resolve another issue. The other issue is that the cube geos are not included in the recording. All the effects are present but no cubes, only the video without texturing to the geos. I researched various techniques to record the geos as well and the best option seemed to be to use pix_snap. Pix_snap resulted in a single frame video with no geos. I guess my question is basicly how do I record a Gem video with all elements included and at the correct fps? Is there another way besides pix_record? Is pix_write the other way? If so how would I use pix_write as it only exports .jpg and .tiff files? I am kind of hoping there is a way to churn out various improvised video manipulations of this performance and other videos I have done so I can share them. Any ideas or is GEM just not meant to be recorded. I mean I have seen GEM videos posted online so there must be an obvious way to do this that I am missing. I feel like I just don't know the proper way to use pix_record and pix_snap together, but maybe I am just going about the process in the absolutely wrong way. Any ideas? please be as specific as possible because I am new to this and still don't understand allot. Thanks so much. Derrick ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- John Harrison http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~harrison #N canvas 395 240 880 497 10; #X obj 29 67 gemhead; #X msg 566 56 create \, 1; #X msg 644 57 destroy; #X obj 29 92 gemframebuffer; #X obj 560 260 pix_texture; #X obj 29 278 pix_snap; #X msg 82 248 512 512; #X obj 29 218 t b a; #X obj 89 228 loadbang; #X msg 29 238 snap; #X obj 29 308 t a b; #X obj 29 335 pix_buffer_write \$0-depot; #X obj 89 47 loadbang; #X msg 89 67 dimen 512 512; #X obj 559 234 pix_buffer_read \$0-depot; #X obj 559 184 gemhead 51; #X obj 559 204 t a b; #X msg 181 314 0; #X obj 352 29 pix_buffer \$0-depot 1; #X msg 685 207 0; #X obj 25 153 cnv 15 380 60 empty empty empty 20 12 0 14 -261682 -66577 0; #X obj 560 398 square 4; #X obj 507 27 loadbang; #X obj 29 112 translateXYZ 0 0 -4; #X obj 560 350 pix_record; #X msg 495 56 lighting 1; #X msg 582 280 file /tmp/mymovie.mov; #X msg 584 321 record 1; #X msg 583 302 auto 1; #X msg 647 322 record 0; #X obj 589 99 gemwin 20; #X floatatom 588 372 5 0 0 0 - - -; #N canvas 94 100 450 300 everything-you-want-to-record-would-go-in-this-rendering-chain 0; #X obj 90 34 inlet; #X obj 89 83 outlet; #X obj 91 60 sphere 2; #X text 270 28 some animation to record; #X obj 202 68 line 0 1; #X msg 202 47 0 \, 3 3000; #X obj 202 27 metro 3000; #X obj 266 159 world_light; #X obj 267 134 gemhead; #X obj 202 7 loadbang; #X connect 0 0 2 0; #X connect 2 0 1 0; #X connect 4 0 2 1; #X connect 5 0 4 0; #X connect 6 0 5 0; #X connect 8 0 7 0; #X connect 9 0 6 0; #X restore 29 160 pd everything-you-want-to-record-would-go-in-this-rendering-chain ; #X connect 0 0 3 0; #X connect 1 0 30
Re: [PD] pix_record issues with geos and frames per second
On Sun, 2009-05-10 at 08:56 -0500, John Harrison wrote: In terms of recording the Geos here's a sample patch of how I might do that. Idea, method, and code stolen liberally from Marius Schebella's posts to this list. In terms of framerate, I am not sure but I would have guessed that you could either send [auto 0( to [pix_record] then bang [pix_record] at the framerate you wish or change [gemwin] to be the framerate you wish and send [auto 1( to [pix_record] . If framerate doesn't seem to be matching what you expect, I wonder if [pix_record] is having trouble keeping up due to CPU load. You might try an uncompressed format for your codec. i am not totally sure, if this still applies, but iirc, [pix_record] has a hardcoded framerate of 20fps. note, that this is not related at all to the actual rate, at which it is recording, but [pix_record] ignores the framerate of [gemwin] and just always writes '20fps' to the header of the generated mov file, although it is actually recording at the rate given by [gemwin]. there are two workarouds i can think of: set your [gemwin] to a rate of 20fps as well, so that the recording framerate and the framerate written into the header are matching. the other idea is to alter framerate field of the resulting mov file. probably this could be done with a hexeditor. i don't know how easy this is with mov files. probably there is even a dedicated editor for such stuff? roman Derrick Barnicoat wrote: Hello, I am very much a newbie to PD/GEM and I just recently created my first video mixer/processer. I am using pix_mix to mix a video of an improvised performance I did with a dancer mixed with itself. I stretched each video over a cube geo. It is 2 chanels. One chanel is an uneffected version of the video. The other video has pix_rtx, pix_lumaoffset, pix_contrast, colorRGB with alpha, and pix_rgb2hsv as filters. Each cube has sliders assigned to control translation, rotation, and scale in unison. There are also three metro objects that control several inputs of the filters. Everything works fine as far as live performance but I want to record the performance as a video file so I can send a version of it to the dancer and perhaps share it via youtube or another video sharing site. I have made various attempts using pix_record and pix_snap objects but the results have been disappointing in various ways. The first attempts resulted in a .mov file but at the wrong fps and thus to slow to match the audio track. As I understand it pix_record only outputs 20fps files but I have a dialog that offers other options. The problem is the dialog closes the gemwin everytime I try to use it and the dialog seems to be set to 12fps. So I tried importing 12fps and 20fps versions of the same video. This was before I added the pix_snap object which I added to resolve another issue. The other issue is that the cube geos are not included in the recording. All the effects are present but no cubes, only the video without texturing to the geos. I researched various techniques to record the geos as well and the best option seemed to be to use pix_snap. Pix_snap resulted in a single frame video with no geos. I guess my question is basicly how do I record a Gem video with all elements included and at the correct fps? Is there another way besides pix_record? Is pix_write the other way? If so how would I use pix_write as it only exports .jpg and .tiff files? I am kind of hoping there is a way to churn out various improvised video manipulations of this performance and other videos I have done so I can share them. Any ideas or is GEM just not meant to be recorded. I mean I have seen GEM videos posted online so there must be an obvious way to do this that I am missing. I feel like I just don't know the proper way to use pix_record and pix_snap together, but maybe I am just going about the process in the absolutely wrong way. Any ideas? please be as specific as possible because I am new to this and still don't understand allot. Thanks so much. Derrick ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list plain text document attachment (record-Gem-window.pd) #N canvas 395 240 880 497 10; #X obj 29 67 gemhead; #X msg 566 56 create \, 1; #X msg 644 57 destroy; #X obj 29 92 gemframebuffer; #X obj 560 260 pix_texture; #X obj 29 278 pix_snap; #X msg 82 248 512 512; #X obj 29 218 t b a; #X obj 89 228 loadbang; #X msg 29 238 snap; #X obj 29 308 t a b; #X obj 29 335 pix_buffer_write \$0-depot; #X obj 89 47 loadbang; #X msg 89 67 dimen 512 512; #X obj 559 234 pix_buffer_read \$0-depot; #X obj 559 184 gemhead 51; #X obj 559 204 t a b; #X msg 181 314 0; #X obj 352 29 pix_buffer \$0-depot 1; #X msg 685 207 0; #X obj 25 153 cnv 15
Re: [PD] pix_record issues with geos and frames per second
On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote: i am not totally sure, if this still applies, but iirc, [pix_record] has a hardcoded framerate of 20fps. This was never the case with pix_record on OSX and Windows. The pix_record object on those platforms records actual framerate by timing how long each frame takes to render and compress. Each frame can have a different length and this is the equivalent of dropping frames during recording. There is a minimum frame time of 20 Quicktime ticks, which corresponds to 30 fps maximum rate. A typical pix_snap and pix_record movie will have a variable frame rate which Quicktime apps have no problem playing. What pix_record is not suitable for is recording an exact 29.97 DV clip like Final Cut or Avid does. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] packOSC BLOB
Hello, For sending audio efficiently over OSC I would need an OSC-BLOB. Unfortunately the packOSC object supports no OSC-BLOBs. Is there any possibility to send BLOBs? ciao Wolfgang ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] signal / message
Hello, What's the best way to convert a signal into a message? There are possibilities like snapshot~ or vsnapshot~, but they are not accurate. The error they produce when you convert into a message and reconvert to a signal (with sig~, line~ or vline~) is clearly audible. ciao Wolfgang ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] packOSC problems sendtyped T,F,I,N
Hello, I'm having some troubles using the packOSC object. Especially sending types True, False, Infinitum and Nil. It's not possible to send those types alone in one message, e.g.: sendtyped /address/1 TF fails as well as: sendtyped /address/1 iTF 23. Only if those types occure within or before an integer (or float or string) it's possible to send them, e.g.: sendtyped /address/1 iTFi 31 23 or sendtyped /address/1 TFi 22. Error Message: packOSC: According to the type tag I expected more arguments. packOSC: Problem writing address. packOSC: usage error, write-msg failed. ciao Wolfgang ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pix_record issues with geos and frames per second
chris clepper a écrit : On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de mailto:reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote: i am not totally sure, if this still applies, but iirc, [pix_record] has a hardcoded framerate of 20fps. This was never the case with pix_record on OSX and Windows. ... i think it's different on linux. it was hardcoded to 20fps, but now it look like pix_record does use the gemwin framerate, so that the video should play at the correct speed, even if recording was slower than real time. Cyrille ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] signal / message
On Sun, 2009-05-10 at 17:29 +0200, Wolfgang Jäger wrote: Hello, What's the best way to convert a signal into a message? There are possibilities like snapshot~ or vsnapshot~, but they are not accurate. The error they produce when you convert into a message and reconvert to a signal (with sig~, line~ or vline~) is clearly audible- yeah, because you most likely capture not _all_ samples and convert them to messages. in order to do so, you would have to use [vsnapshot~] and bang it 44.1 times per milliseconds. [snapshot~] wouldn't work, since it always captures the first (or last?) sample of the block. an easier way is to use [pack~] and [unpack~] from zexy. those convert a signal vector (one block of audio samples) to a list of floats and vice versa. if you want to have a stream of floats instead of lists, use [drip]. either way you do it, it's going to be expensive. roman ___ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] signal / message
well, the question is for what reason are you doing it? I think it is better to get some features from say sigmund~ and use those to control or recreate, but i don't know what you want J On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote: On Sun, 2009-05-10 at 17:29 +0200, Wolfgang Jäger wrote: Hello, What's the best way to convert a signal into a message? There are possibilities like snapshot~ or vsnapshot~, but they are not accurate. The error they produce when you convert into a message and reconvert to a signal (with sig~, line~ or vline~) is clearly audible- yeah, because you most likely capture not _all_ samples and convert them to messages. in order to do so, you would have to use [vsnapshot~] and bang it 44.1 times per milliseconds. [snapshot~] wouldn't work, since it always captures the first (or last?) sample of the block. an easier way is to use [pack~] and [unpack~] from zexy. those convert a signal vector (one block of audio samples) to a list of floats and vice versa. if you want to have a stream of floats instead of lists, use [drip]. either way you do it, it's going to be expensive. roman ___ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Jaime E Oliver LR joliv...@ucsd.edu www.realidadvisual.org/jaimeoliver www-crca.ucsd.edu/ www.realidadvisual.org 858 202 1522 9168 Regents Rd. Apt. G La Jolla, CA 92037 USA ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] packOSC problems sendtyped T,F,I,N
OK, thanks for the bug report. It should be fixed now in svn. Martin Wolfgang Jäger wrote: Hello, I'm having some troubles using the packOSC object. Especially sending types True, False, Infinitum and Nil. It's not possible to send those types alone in one message, e.g.: sendtyped /address/1 TF fails as well as: sendtyped /address/1 iTF 23. Only if those types occure within or before an integer (or float or string) it's possible to send them, e.g.: sendtyped /address/1 iTFi 31 23 or sendtyped /address/1 TFi 22. Error Message: packOSC: According to the type tag I expected more arguments. packOSC: Problem writing address. packOSC: usage error, write-msg failed. ciao Wolfgang ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] packOSC BLOB
Wolfgang Jäger wrote: Hello, For sending audio efficiently over OSC I would need an OSC-BLOB. Unfortunately the packOSC object supports no OSC-BLOBs. Is there any possibility to send BLOBs? ciao I can probably add a Blob type to [packOSC] and [unpackOSC]. The thing is that the blob type is supposed to consist of arbitrary bytes (8-bits), but Pd audio works with 32-bit floats. There is nothing [unpackOSC] can do with a received blob except output the list of bytes, so some other object would be needed to pack groups of 4 bytes into floats again. It may end up being just as efficient to send a bunch of floats for each signal vector. Martin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] signal / message
--- On Sun, 5/10/09, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote: From: Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de Subject: Re: [PD] signal / message To: Wolfgang Jäger wolfgang.jae...@gmx.at Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 5:54 PM On Sun, 2009-05-10 at 17:29 +0200, Wolfgang Jäger wrote: Hello, What's the best way to convert a signal into a message? There are possibilities like snapshot~ or vsnapshot~, but they are not accurate. The error they produce when you convert into a message and reconvert to a signal (with sig~, line~ or vline~) is clearly audible- yeah, because you most likely capture not _all_ samples and convert them to messages. in order to do so, you would have to use [vsnapshot~] and bang it 44.1 times per milliseconds. [snapshot~] wouldn't work, since it always captures the first (or last?) sample of the block. Isn't it the last sample of the block? (see attached) -Jonathan snapshot~test.pd Description: application/puredata ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] signal / message
On Sun, 2009-05-10 at 13:28 -0700, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote: From: Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de Subject: Re: [PD] signal / message To: Wolfgang Jäger wolfgang.jae...@gmx.at Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 5:54 PM On Sun, 2009-05-10 at 17:29 +0200, Wolfgang Jäger wrote: Hello, What's the best way to convert a signal into a message? There are possibilities like snapshot~ or vsnapshot~, but they are not accurate. The error they produce when you convert into a message and reconvert to a signal (with sig~, line~ or vline~) is clearly audible- yeah, because you most likely capture not _all_ samples and convert them to messages. in order to do so, you would have to use [vsnapshot~] and bang it 44.1 times per milliseconds. [snapshot~] wouldn't work, since it always captures the first (or last?) sample of the block. Isn't it the last sample of the block? (see attached) -Jonathan i guess, you're right. thanks for the patch. roman ___ Der fr�he Vogel f�ngt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] signal / message
Isn't it the last sample of the _last_ block? I heard that somewhere. So if you're processing block N on the current DSP tick what you see is the [snapshot~] of N-1 ??? On Sun, 10 May 2009 13:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: Isn't it the last sample of the block? (see attached) -Jonathan -- Use the source ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] signal / message
Hallo, Roman Haefeli hat gesagt: // Roman Haefeli wrote: an easier way is to use [pack~] and [unpack~] from zexy. those convert a signal vector (one block of audio samples) to a list of floats and vice versa. if you want to have a stream of floats instead of lists, use [drip]. Or use [tabsend~] and read out the table between dsp cycles. Ciao -- Frank ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] video multi image detection and red circle
Dear friends... i make a tracking controller for video, but in the Gem window always appear the red circle with the cross... i want view and control other videos with tracking... but always de red circle...depth???gemhead -1??? gemwin-1??? i can measure the movement. I use Mac Intel. Thanks a lot Josè -- http://arselectronicachile.blogspot.com/ www.myspace.com/santorcuato ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] signal / message
Jaime Oliver wrote: well, the question is for what reason are you doing it? I want to send audio data packed in OSC messages/bundles over Ethernet. I think it is better to get some features from say sigmund~ and use those to control or recreate, but i don't know what you want I guess in my case it's better to work with exact audio data, an estimation would limit applications on the receiver side. Wolfgang J On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote: On Sun, 2009-05-10 at 17:29 +0200, Wolfgang Jäger wrote: Hello, What's the best way to convert a signal into a message? ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] signal / message
--- On Sun, 5/10/09, Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk wrote: From: Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk Subject: Re: [PD] signal / message To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: wolfgang.jae...@gmx.at, reduzie...@yahoo.de, pd-list@iem.at Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 9:57 PM Isn't it the last sample of the _last_ block? I heard that somewhere. So if you're processing block N on the current DSP tick what you see is the [snapshot~] of N-1 ??? Thanks for the clarification. You must be right; otherwise, snapshot~ would have to delay its output until the current block finishes. -Jonathan On Sun, 10 May 2009 13:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: Isn't it the last sample of the block? (see attached) -Jonathan -- Use the source ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] signal / message
Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Roman Haefeli hat gesagt: // Roman Haefeli wrote: an easier way is to use [pack~] and [unpack~] from zexy. those convert a signal vector (one block of audio samples) to a list of floats and vice versa. if you want to have a stream of floats instead of lists, use [drip]. Or use [tabsend~] and read out the table between dsp cycles. Ciao Thanks a lot, I'm definitly going to try this, even if my computer seems to be a little bit too slow. Wolfgang ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] OT : Ubuntu/Fedora opinions (relative to Pd, of course)
Hi, since the release of F9 I look at the audio part of Linux - I personally find it a complete disaster and 'user-hostile' to be polite. Many on this list are software specialists, so please don't look down on someone who doesn't want to follow 3 pages of instructions of how to make pulse audio work 'on top of' ALSA - especially if there are follow-ups on the relevant forums that they still don't have any signal output. My laptop currently runs F9 (or WinXP) and works is an mp3 player, full stop. From posts on the fedora list I understand that my situation is even better than many others who don't even get that to work. My question is, how does Ubuntu studio compare to Fedora? Before I start doctoring with my laptop and install Ubuntu 9.04 instead of F9 I'm scratching my head. Thanks for any comments. Best Jurgen ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] OT : Ubuntu/Fedora opinions (relative to Pd, of course)
I have used fc8 and 10 with no problems, fc9 gave me a lot of problems.. J On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Lao Yu noise@gmail.com wrote: Hi, since the release of F9 I look at the audio part of Linux - I personally find it a complete disaster and 'user-hostile' to be polite. Many on this list are software specialists, so please don't look down on someone who doesn't want to follow 3 pages of instructions of how to make pulse audio work 'on top of' ALSA - especially if there are follow-ups on the relevant forums that they still don't have any signal output. My laptop currently runs F9 (or WinXP) and works is an mp3 player, full stop. From posts on the fedora list I understand that my situation is even better than many others who don't even get that to work. My question is, how does Ubuntu studio compare to Fedora? Before I start doctoring with my laptop and install Ubuntu 9.04 instead of F9 I'm scratching my head. Thanks for any comments. Best Jurgen ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Jaime E Oliver LR joliv...@ucsd.edu www.realidadvisual.org/jaimeoliver www-crca.ucsd.edu/ www.realidadvisual.org 858 202 1522 9168 Regents Rd. Apt. G La Jolla, CA 92037 USA ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
