Re: [PD] udoo board sound issues
well, i play a lot in an orchestra. (doublebass) and i can assure you it’s a problem you don’t get used to. (and that is not just me) sure you can adapt to the situation but it is not ideal. let a pipe organ player play with a conductor and orchestra and the fun begins :-) it works but it needs a lot of practice and constant forward-conducting” from the conductor. i also play a lot with an orchestra that focuses on film-music. basically the movie is going on a screen and we play the filmmusic live to it. the conductor (ludwig wicki) has a small screen with the movie and a click on his notestand, and it’s his job to get the orchestra in sync with the movie. he always has to conduct way before the click to even get close to the right spot. so you could say the latency is even worse for the conductor! also i yet have to find an orchestra that plays highly rhythmically fast stuff in sync :-) it’s just a different way of making music. my education is that of a jazz-bassplayer and i had to get into the orchestra “groove” (or the lack of it), before i could understand why they play so non-precise rhythms :-) but it is the only way to stay in sync with each-other and the orchestra. try a symphonic orchestra with a rock-drummer :-) he will get crazy. and to the latencies inherent in wooden instruments: on the doublebass (which many consider as the wooden instrument with the largest latency) the situation is complex. as a player you feel the strings and you have immediate response when you bow or pluck them. so there is no latency for your body. the tone that you hear as a player by the instrument is also there very fast (mostly the attack) but the tone that people here in the audience comes in much later (mostly not the attack) and depends on frequency and volume and if the bass is plucked or bowed. it’s a “problem” with digital instruments or effects when the body experience is non existant and you have to rely solely on your ears. imho this makes a huge difference. cheers simon so i think we should try to make latencies as small as possible, since it helps a lot :-) On 16 Mar 2014, at 02:36, Simon Wise simonzw...@gmail.com wrote: On 15/03/14 23:03, Dan Wilcox wrote: I guess I don't get that since I've been playing that relative latency for years. How is 10-15 ms not real time? It's not even really perceivable unless you're doing lots of high rate short attack decay stuff. At least as far as I can tell. I must be slow. :D Then again, I might be wrong. I'll probably try the hard float Debian UDOO image next. That might give us some room. Musicians in orchestras have been playing with, dealing with, much longer latencies for centuries. An orchestra cannot all be within a metre or so of each other, they are 10s of metres apart, and that is on top of the different set of differences in distance to the audience. In a pit in an opera or ballet it gets much worse. Any modern PA adds substantial latencies to achieve a good sound in the audience, and mostly use mics and foldback in other kinds of performances, and make the musicians life easier by avoiding the natural latency issues of an acoustic performance. Organ players have dealt with huge latencies for as long as there have been big pipe organs. Percussionists using real instruments don't get the attack from their instruments till well after they initiate the note by starting to move their stick toward the cymbal. Wood and metal instruments all have considerable latencies, some much more than others, it is all part of playing that particular instrument. Electric guitar players rely on the latency between amp and pickup (this time only a few milliseconds) for their sound. Any digital instrument also has latencies. Basically it is a matter of playing the instrument you are using. Simon ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] udoo board sound issues
Also, for an electric guitar player, the difference between the latency you get with an analog amp (not perceivable) and a computer with more than 10(?)ms latency, is very big. Maybe around 10ms would be ideal, but haven't reached that (yet?), but would really love to. On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Simon Iten itensi...@gmail.com wrote: well, i play a lot in an orchestra. (doublebass) and i can assure you it's a problem you don't get used to. (and that is not just me) sure you can adapt to the situation but it is not ideal. let a pipe organ player play with a conductor and orchestra and the fun begins :-) it works but it needs a lot of practice and constant forward-conducting from the conductor. i also play a lot with an orchestra that focuses on film-music. basically the movie is going on a screen and we play the filmmusic live to it. the conductor (ludwig wicki) has a small screen with the movie and a click on his notestand, and it's his job to get the orchestra in sync with the movie. he always has to conduct way before the click to even get close to the right spot. so you could say the latency is even worse for the conductor! also i yet have to find an orchestra that plays highly rhythmically fast stuff in sync :-) it's just a different way of making music. my education is that of a jazz-bassplayer and i had to get into the orchestra groove (or the lack of it), before i could understand why they play so non-precise rhythms :-) but it is the only way to stay in sync with each-other and the orchestra. try a symphonic orchestra with a rock-drummer :-) he will get crazy. and to the latencies inherent in wooden instruments: on the doublebass (which many consider as the wooden instrument with the largest latency) the situation is complex. as a player you feel the strings and you have immediate response when you bow or pluck them. so there is no latency for your body. the tone that you hear as a player by the instrument is also there very fast (mostly the attack) but the tone that people here in the audience comes in much later (mostly not the attack) and depends on frequency and volume and if the bass is plucked or bowed. it's a problem with digital instruments or effects when the body experience is non existant and you have to rely solely on your ears. imho this makes a huge difference. cheers simon so i think we should try to make latencies as small as possible, since it helps a lot :-) On 16 Mar 2014, at 02:36, Simon Wise simonzw...@gmail.com wrote: On 15/03/14 23:03, Dan Wilcox wrote: I guess I don't get that since I've been playing that relative latency for years. How is 10-15 ms not real time? It's not even really perceivable unless you're doing lots of high rate short attack decay stuff. At least as far as I can tell. I must be slow. :D Then again, I might be wrong. I'll probably try the hard float Debian UDOO image next. That might give us some room. Musicians in orchestras have been playing with, dealing with, much longer latencies for centuries. An orchestra cannot all be within a metre or so of each other, they are 10s of metres apart, and that is on top of the different set of differences in distance to the audience. In a pit in an opera or ballet it gets much worse. Any modern PA adds substantial latencies to achieve a good sound in the audience, and mostly use mics and foldback in other kinds of performances, and make the musicians life easier by avoiding the natural latency issues of an acoustic performance. Organ players have dealt with huge latencies for as long as there have been big pipe organs. Percussionists using real instruments don't get the attack from their instruments till well after they initiate the note by starting to move their stick toward the cymbal. Wood and metal instruments all have considerable latencies, some much more than others, it is all part of playing that particular instrument. Electric guitar players rely on the latency between amp and pickup (this time only a few milliseconds) for their sound. Any digital instrument also has latencies. Basically it is a matter of playing the instrument you are using. Simon ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] udoo board sound issues
On 03/16/2014 05:33 AM, Simon Iten wrote: [...] Any digital instrument also has latencies. Basically it is a matter of playing the instrument you are using. How are you measuring the latency? -Jonathan Simon ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] udoo board sound issues
BTW, not to overstate the obvious, but... A good way to measure total latency is with an oscilloscope. Hook up one probe to the mic, the other probe to a wire coming out of an output on your device. Then make a patch that sends the sound straight through, eg: [dac~] | [adc~] If you stimulate the mic with an impulse of some sort, you should see a spike and then the same spike a few (or perhaps more than a few) ms later on the scope. You can be very exact about this by using the scope correctly. For a bonus, subtract the latency on Pd (one of the settings in audio settings) from this to find out the latency of everything in your signal chain that is not due to Pd. -David On 03/16/2014 11:37 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: On 03/16/2014 05:33 AM, Simon Iten wrote: [...] Any digital instrument also has latencies. Basically it is a matter of playing the instrument you are using. How are you measuring the latency? -Jonathan Simon ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] udoo board sound issues
Any digital instrument also has latencies. Basically it is a matter of playing the instrument you are using. How are you measuring the latency? with a digital instrument, in this context, it has to be from the time the gesture is made that controls the effect, till the effect is heard by the listener, and separately till the effect is heard by the musician. so the 15 or 20 ms of DSP processing latency is only one part of that... then add such things as input latency (say midi or the audio input circuitry, or the distance from source to microphone ...) output latency (say distance from the reproduced sound source to the ears). then consider the response time involved in detecting the gestures, like in the recent thread here (or LAU?) talking about tracking following notes played on a guitar and using meta data based on that. then consider the difference between judging the effect as heard by a listener compared to what is heard by the musician (re timing in this case, but generally these is a very substantially different sounds in any wood, flesh and metal instruments ... what a singer hears unless they are wearing headsets is very different indeed to what anyone else listening hears) then consider the time between the start of a sound and its main attack, the time read as the timing of the note. as pointed out earlier in the thread much western orchestral music is not tightly timed rhythmically, but there are many other very old musical traditions that are very percussive, with very intricate timings that deal with significant distances between players or with instruments like big gongs or bells that have huge latencies built in. in very many circumstances, now and historically, 20 ms here or there is tiny, as long as it is consistent ... jitter (generally) is unplayable. in the particular circumstance of a musician whose experience is limited to playing with headsets or close monitors getting fed a mix of the final sound sent to the listener ... most of those normal latencies have been bypassed and the digital world has made that kind of performance much, much easier for modern musicians (those playing with that kind of technological assistance) ... then 15 ms can become very significant ... best for them to avoid big gongs, plus any digital effect that requires taking latency into account when playing. Simon ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] log function in slider
Hi Roman. This is turning out trickier than I thought. A friend explained the code to me and got to the following equation, with min/max values as 0.01 and 1 respectively. [expr 0.01 * exp((log(1 / 0.01) / 0.01) * $f1 * 0.01)] For what I've checked, it seems to behave like your patch. But it doesn't do the trick I'm looking for yet. I sent a patch earlier, and I'm sending it back again. The goal is to connect a linear slider to an [expr] (with this so called log function) and then to another linear slider. The idea then is that this second slider behaves as one that was set as being log. In the patch attached I was able to emulate it poorly with [pow 0.25], but that was before reaching the list. See that if I use this expr function from the code or your patch it presents quite a different behavior. maybe it is some sort of inversion of this equation, not sure. Apparently this code converts the log function values to linear and I'm hoping to get the exact opposite. Got it? Thanks for looking into this 2014-03-12 4:38 GMT-03:00 Roman Haefeli reduz...@gmail.com: On Don, 2014-03-06 at 21:37 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: hi folks, out of curiosity, what's the exact log function used in the slider? I'd like to emulate it. I am not sure, if this is what you want. It converts the incoming linear range between 0 and 1 to a logarithmic range specified by $1 and $2, respectively by the second and third inlet. They behave like the lower and upper bound specified in the [vslider]/[hslider] classes. https://raw.github.com/reduzent/netpd2-patches/master/abs/rh_scalelog.pd Roman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list slider.pd Description: Binary data ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] friendly reminder that osx pd-extended is still badly flawed
it's an OS thing, you can set it somewhere so it doenst open the latest files, someone showed how to do it here, cant remeber though :P 2014-03-13 12:41 GMT-03:00 i go bananas hard@gmail.com: pd 0.42.5 ...so it got fixed??? i don't like updating, cos if it ain't broke, don't fix itbut maybe i should try? On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:21 AM, i go bananas hard@gmail.com wrote: i'm on 10.6.8 On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:18 AM, José Rafael Subía Valdez jsubiaval...@gmail.com wrote: what version of OSX?? I have no problem with it. Does it open 2 instances or just 2 icons on the dock??? I remember a while back in tiger this occurred after doing something in system preferences (cant remember what.. it was a long time ago) Those days, I opened a patch and I saw a PD icon and another blank icon also called pd, but now.. running 10.6.8 and extended 0.43. I see no problem as you describe. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 10:07 AM, i go bananas hard@gmail.comwrote: every time i open a patch from clicking on an icon, PD loads 2 patches. pretty sure this is a long standing issue that hasn't been fixed. (os-x) ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Lic. José Rafael Subía Valdez www.jrsv.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
