Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
--- On Wed, 3/25/09, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: From: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca Subject: Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done To: Chris McCormick ch...@mccormick.cx Cc: Pd List pd-list@iem.at Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 6:01 PM On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Chris McCormick wrote: IIRC, one of their complaints from last year was that our application had too many parts. Next time we should pick just one or two specific tasks and go with them. Maybe with a community vote or whatever. Also, I hate to be cynical, but I can't see any way even remotely in which Google could use Pd to make a profit. ;) Thanks for your huge effort anyway, Hans and Georg. It's not just that, it's that Pd is still relatively non-mainstream. I can imagine plenty (or even most) of programmers being allergic to Pd and thinking it's messy, difficult to program with, and generally an exercise in contorsion. I mean, what do you do with a language that has no builtin [demux] (that's called an if-else anywhere else) Does [expr~ if ( $f2 == 0, $v1, 0 ); etc.] fill that role? (If so, it certainly strengthens your following point.) -Jonathan , in which hot-vs-cold is troublesome (else [expr] wouldn't be *so* attractive), etc.; if programmers that don't use pd had a better opinion of pd, some things like this could have more of a chance. That's when supposing Google is trying to stay neutral and not selecting for profit. Else it's an ever harder game, I suppose. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: I mean, what do you do with a language that has no builtin [demux] (that's called an if-else anywhere else) Does [expr~ if ( $f2 == 0, $v1, 0 ); etc.] fill that role? When processing just pd signals, a real conditional execution is done by [switch~] or [block~] and can only be applied on full subpatches. The [expr~ if] does compute both clauses of the if, and then discards one of the results. This means that if a clause whose result gets discarded would cause an error, it will. The only difference between that and just multiplying one of the results by 0, is when one of the clauses is infinite or NaN, then multiplying it by 0 won't cancel it. And then, that if() can only happen inside of [expr~]'s world, and so has no direct impact on other objects. But I was more thinking of the message-system. In that case, [spigot] is an if-statement in which execution is really conditional: a block of code being a connection from an outlet to a bunch of objects that do something when you send them a message, then [spigot] decides whether something happens or not, in a generic way. [select], [route] and [moses] are special-case if-statements. The if-else statements require a pair of [spigot]s and a [==]. This could be put in an abstraction, a total of six objects, and named demux2.pd or spigot2.pd, but no, Pd bundles absolutely no abstractions, and though the code for this very common case is just a few lines away from [spigot], Pd is still without it. (If so, it certainly strengthens your following point.) , in which hot-vs-cold is troublesome (else [expr] wouldn't be *so* attractive), etc. No, this was about how [expr] can be a replacement for even a small network of objects. If you make an abstraction that does ($f1-$f2)*($f5-$f4)/($f3-$f2)+$f4, with just [+] [-] [*] [/] for example, then if you change some things in the cold inlets, the changes might not propagate to the bottom. This means you have to add a [pack 0 0 0 0 0] of the whole thing and [unpack 0 0 0 0 0] to ensure every hot-inlet is retriggered in the proper order. Actually, in this pack/unpack dance, maybe you can skip the hot-inlet of the abstraction (?), but apart from that, you're pretty stuck using pack/unpack if you want life to be simple. Else you can weave a mess of [t b f] objects like a spider on caffeine. That's what I mean. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
Hallo, Mathieu Bouchard hat gesagt: // Mathieu Bouchard wrote: The if-else statements require a pair of [spigot]s and a [==]. A bit shorter, less effective and because of list-conversion not fully transparent, but still handy is this idiom: [list prepend 0] | [route 0 1] Send 0 and 1 to the prepend's right inlet to switch outlets. It becomes more useful with more choices. Ciao -- Frank ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Frank Barknecht wrote: A bit shorter, less effective and because of list-conversion not fully transparent, but still handy is this idiom: [list prepend 0] | [route 0 1] Send 0 and 1 to the prepend's right inlet to switch outlets. It becomes more useful with more choices. Interesting, but I very very much expect a demuxer to be generic enough to apply uniformly to all selectors even list. This disqualifies pretty much everything with [list] and [route] in them, as both have special cases for list-selectors that are hard to compensate for. I definitely don't want to be programming like that. When I think about getting the a message to the right place, I want to do so without having to think about the content of the message... especially for something as common as a list selector. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Chris McCormick wrote: IIRC, one of their complaints from last year was that our application had too many parts. Next time we should pick just one or two specific tasks and go with them. Maybe with a community vote or whatever. Also, I hate to be cynical, but I can't see any way even remotely in which Google could use Pd to make a profit. ;) Thanks for your huge effort anyway, Hans and Georg. It's not just that, it's that Pd is still relatively non-mainstream. I can imagine plenty (or even most) of programmers being allergic to Pd and thinking it's messy, difficult to program with, and generally an exercise in contorsion. I mean, what do you do with a language that has no builtin [demux] (that's called an if-else anywhere else), in which hot-vs-cold is troublesome (else [expr] wouldn't be *so* attractive), etc.; if programmers that don't use pd had a better opinion of pd, some things like this could have more of a chance. That's when supposing Google is trying to stay neutral and not selecting for profit. Else it's an ever harder game, I suppose. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, dmotd wrote: or perhaps a company that relies so heavily on string manipulation considered pd useless? ;) Yeah. It doesn't even have to be deliberate. A search engine company will be populated by the kind of computer programmers who are very very string-centric. Those guys might not even realise that they are being string-centric. At the other end of the spectrum, Pd users might not realise how much non-string-centric they are, or even, string-avoidant. Pd is the most string-averse language I've touched since ColorLOGO: http://www.trs-80.com/covers/book-colorlogo(1982)(micropi).jpg But that was a 8k ROM that also had to implement multithreading from scratch and had to do graphics and math on a CPU that not only had no FPU but also no division operator either. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
i bet if we icluded 'musical data mining' or such thing in there ..we'd win ;) however may be no one will ever get far with this - it's seems to be that kindda target that is set by them for groups to research on and never get far out and be too occupid .. eh.. whatever, might them hear this, they no already but i think we should get these done ;) our new TODO list perfectly set out ;) prove that we don't actually need that much of their support and can be self-organzed to reach these targets :] i'd like to work on a multi-platform installer mmodular pd-extended installer scrit, which would basically install pd into /opt/pd with all deps and chosen extenals//abstaction sets -- ilya .d ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
hm .. i think it's not appropriate to compare pd to programmng languges we do call it a languge, but it's rather more corect to call it like and visual engeneering environment whch hase a set of object or something like that, if you could at least compile them into some sort of binaries - that would be a bit more comparable ..and pd is not a virtual machine either .. may be it is in some way, but all these VM thing is inapropriate anyway, that way you are putting it in the row with Java and dot.net ..and that is not were ost of us wanna be .. you can put pd (max and perhaps reactor) into the row with LABVIEW and Simulink(mayb), and those are rather engenering environmnts then languages as such, i think the langueges should be rather limited to those you code with in a tet editor.. anyhow these disscussions are inappropriate cause they don't make any difference - i just wanted to give my poiint, as Mathieu said about [demux] .. that leads to flae wars like between tclers and lispers ..but to me both are actually quite simpatic ;)) and i can see my self coding in both one day .. and once again - i don't see them programmers using software like pd or max or labview - those are more for engeneers yeah some people are proper engeneers and progammers at the same time, but they are not the majority.. if we all where great at both things everything be working much better and much moreusable perhaps .. ;) On 25/03/2009, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Chris McCormick wrote: IIRC, one of their complaints from last year was that our application had too many parts. Next time we should pick just one or two specific tasks and go with them. Maybe with a community vote or whatever. Also, I hate to be cynical, but I can't see any way even remotely in which Google could use Pd to make a profit. ;) Thanks for your huge effort anyway, Hans and Georg. It's not just that, it's that Pd is still relatively non-mainstream. I can imagine plenty (or even most) of programmers being allergic to Pd and thinking it's messy, difficult to program with, and generally an exercise in contorsion. I mean, what do you do with a language that has no builtin [demux] (that's called an if-else anywhere else), in which hot-vs-cold is troublesome (else [expr] wouldn't be *so* attractive), etc.; if programmers that don't use pd had a better opinion of pd, some things like this could have more of a chance. That's when supposing Google is trying to stay neutral and not selecting for profit. Else it's an ever harder game, I suppose. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, error developer wrote: i think it's not appropriate to compare pd to programmng languges I believe that even if we try to refrain to compare pd to programming languages, and refrain from calling it a programming language, it still will be compared to programming languages simply because it's used in the same way that programming languages are and is in direct competition with programming languages when deciding which tools to pick to do a certain job. Teaching Pd leads to the same kind of challenges as does any other programming language if you teach Pd for what it's good for. we do call it a languge, but it's rather more corect to call it like and visual engeneering environment whch hase a set of object or something like that, There's nothing more correct in that, except perhaps politically correct, if that's what correctness is. That correctness is all about avoiding comparisons and doesn't lead to anything useful. if you could at least compile them into some sort of binaries - that would be a bit more comparable No, there are *plenty* of languages for which there is either no compilation involved, or the compilation process is completely hidden from the user, such that you never have to deal with compilation directly. (Pd's DSP has an almost-hidden compilation step, for example.) ..and pd is not a virtual machine either This concept of compiling a programme to a certain kind of format in which the instructions are written down in a way similar to traditional machine languages... this is only incidental to what a programming language is, it doesn't make a programming language more real or anything. It's just a strategy for achieving the goal of running the programme... or more exactly, to run it more quickly than by using more obvious ways of executing a programme (that is, an interpreter). that leads to flae wars like between tclers and lispers ..but to me both are actually quite simpatic ;)) and i can see my self coding in both one day .. If you know Tcl and Lisp and Perl and Ruby and Python and such, you know that the compilation aspect and the virtual machine stuff is very secondary. It's not shoved in your face like it is with C++ and Java. Yet those are true programming languages because of the degree of flexibility that they offer in solving problems. Then Pd is not much different from them... well, it is, and surely it's less flexible than those languages, but it's far above the threshold at which you start to have much more flexibility than using things that are not considered programming languages at all. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
Yo, IIRC, one of their complaints from last year was that our application had too many parts. Next time we should pick just one or two specific tasks and go with them. Maybe with a community vote or whatever. Also, I hate to be cynical, but I can't see any way even remotely in which Google could use Pd to make a profit. ;) Thanks for your huge effort anyway, Hans and Georg. Best, Chris. On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:33:55AM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: That is indeed true. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to nag google, and it might even help. But I don't think it would change this year's outcome. I think the key to getting a grant like this is to know what they are looking for and tailor the grant to that. It would be useful if someone tried to find any materials from the successful projects and report back what they learned. I tried to do that in the past. .hc On Mar 20, 2009, at 4:01 PM, Rich E wrote: Of course it would be nice to do the projects regardless of funding, but in reality they just won't get the same attention to detail and thoroughness. I don't have a job except through grants like this.. I'm still all for making apython libpd module... but who knows when summer rolls around and i'm broke. Do you think it is any good to question/complain to google about not getting accepted two years in a row? I looked at some of the other project pages and not only is the pd application just as good, I think the proposed projects are much more valuable to the open source community. I don't want to name anything in specific, but I saw some well funded projects that only proposed various bug fixes, that were accepted (literally there is a project that says go through the bugs list and fix whatever you can). regards, Rich On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@eds.org wrote: So now we have a nice collection of projects sketched out from the GSoC application, let's encourage people to take them on. If anyone wants to get involved with Pd development, take a look at the project ideas and if you are interested, then ask about them on the list and we can get started. http://puredata.info/dev/summer-of-code/GoogleSummerOfCodeIdeas2009 I think next time someone else should take on the GSoC application process. I'm 2 for 2 at not getting it, I've never had much luck with grants. And we have lots of well-sketched out projects. We should probably chuck the application part and start from scratch. .hc All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated -John Donne ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute. - from Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list --- http://mccormick.cx ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:03:55 + Chris McCormick ch...@mccormick.cx wrote: Also, I hate to be cynical, but I can't see any way even remotely in which Google could use Pd to make a profit. ;) Profit aside, you can make a fundamental partition in computing between forward looking systems (predictive, generative, hypothetical, AI, imaginative type systems) and backward looking (retrospective, analytical, indexing, organising, sort, search, existing value based systems). A bit like left and right brain faculties. Most problems involve elements of both, but Google's domain (search) really falls more into the latter, while applications of Pd are constructive and fall better into the former. -- Use the source ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
hmm.. now i would have thought that with google investing a great many resources into mobile technology, ie. their first real attempt at killing off the competition (apple) with their phone architecture (android), and with the relative success of rjdj for the (apple) iphone, they would be rushing at the opportunity to port a 'killer app' to their gadget and supporting the environment that harbours this app (pd). afterall the frivolous world of consumer gadgets requires that users have access to lovely toys that do the things which make those consumers like the gadget enough to warant spending the cash in the first place (no decent software, no gadget, no matter how 'cool', nerdy or utilitarian the thing is in the first place). to be even more cynical, i would suggest that if the application was rewritten to suggest a focussed effort at making pd/rjdj support android and that the 'other' modifications fell under this umbrella project we may have stood a better chance. but this is all rather hypothetical and would require playing silly games with a corporate monolith. or perhaps a company that relies so heavily on string manipulation considered pd useless? ;) ciao dmotd On Monday 23 March 2009 23:03:55 Chris McCormick wrote: Yo, IIRC, one of their complaints from last year was that our application had too many parts. Next time we should pick just one or two specific tasks and go with them. Maybe with a community vote or whatever. Also, I hate to be cynical, but I can't see any way even remotely in which Google could use Pd to make a profit. ;) Thanks for your huge effort anyway, Hans and Georg. Best, Chris. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
padawan12 wrote: Chris McCormick wrote: Also, I hate to be cynical, but I can't see any way even remotely in which Google could use Pd to make a profit. ;) Profit aside, you can make a fundamental partition in computing between forward looking systems (predictive, generative, hypothetical, AI, imaginative type systems) and backward looking (retrospective, analytical, indexing, organising, sort, search, existing value based systems). A bit like left and right brain faculties. Most problems involve elements of both, but Google's domain (search) really falls more into the latter, while applications of Pd are constructive and fall better into the former. Hmmm, maybe a project to find and install any Pd external missing from a patch... Martin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
That is indeed true. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to nag google, and it might even help. But I don't think it would change this year's outcome. I think the key to getting a grant like this is to know what they are looking for and tailor the grant to that. It would be useful if someone tried to find any materials from the successful projects and report back what they learned. I tried to do that in the past. .hc On Mar 20, 2009, at 4:01 PM, Rich E wrote: Of course it would be nice to do the projects regardless of funding, but in reality they just won't get the same attention to detail and thoroughness. I don't have a job except through grants like this.. I'm still all for making apython libpd module... but who knows when summer rolls around and i'm broke. Do you think it is any good to question/complain to google about not getting accepted two years in a row? I looked at some of the other project pages and not only is the pd application just as good, I think the proposed projects are much more valuable to the open source community. I don't want to name anything in specific, but I saw some well funded projects that only proposed various bug fixes, that were accepted (literally there is a project that says go through the bugs list and fix whatever you can). regards, Rich On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@eds.org wrote: So now we have a nice collection of projects sketched out from the GSoC application, let's encourage people to take them on. If anyone wants to get involved with Pd development, take a look at the project ideas and if you are interested, then ask about them on the list and we can get started. http://puredata.info/dev/summer-of-code/GoogleSummerOfCodeIdeas2009 I think next time someone else should take on the GSoC application process. I'm 2 for 2 at not getting it, I've never had much luck with grants. And we have lots of well-sketched out projects. We should probably chuck the application part and start from scratch. .hc All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated -John Donne ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute. - from Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
Of course it would be nice to do the projects regardless of funding, but in reality they just won't get the same attention to detail and thoroughness. I don't have a job except through grants like this.. I'm still all for making apython libpd module... but who knows when summer rolls around and i'm broke. Do you think it is any good to question/complain to google about not getting accepted two years in a row? I looked at some of the other project pages and not only is the pd application just as good, I think the proposed projects are much more valuable to the open source community. I don't want to name anything in specific, but I saw some well funded projects that only proposed various bug fixes, that were accepted (literally there is a project that says go through the bugs list and fix whatever you can). regards, Rich On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@eds.org wrote: So now we have a nice collection of projects sketched out from the GSoC application, let's encourage people to take them on. If anyone wants to get involved with Pd development, take a look at the project ideas and if you are interested, then ask about them on the list and we can get started. http://puredata.info/dev/summer-of-code/GoogleSummerOfCodeIdeas2009 I think next time someone else should take on the GSoC application process. I'm 2 for 2 at not getting it, I've never had much luck with grants. And we have lots of well-sketched out projects. We should probably chuck the application part and start from scratch. .hc All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated -John Donne ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
So now we have a nice collection of projects sketched out from the GSoC application, let's encourage people to take them on. If anyone wants to get involved with Pd development, take a look at the project ideas and if you are interested, then ask about them on the list and we can get started. http://puredata.info/dev/summer-of-code/GoogleSummerOfCodeIdeas2009 I think next time someone else should take on the GSoC application process. I'm 2 for 2 at not getting it, I've never had much luck with grants. And we have lots of well-sketched out projects. We should probably chuck the application part and start from scratch. .hc All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated -John Donne ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done
Aaaw Fooey!
~Kyle
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@eds.orgwrote:
So now we have a nice collection of projects sketched out from the GSoC
application, let's encourage people to take them on. If anyone wants to get
involved with Pd development, take a look at the project ideas and if you
are interested, then ask about them on the list and we can get started.
http://puredata.info/dev/summer-of-code/GoogleSummerOfCodeIdeas2009
I think next time someone else should take on the GSoC application process.
I'm 2 for 2 at not getting it, I've never had much luck with grants. And
we have lots of well-sketched out projects. We should probably chuck the
application part and start from scratch.
.hc
All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one
chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language;
and every chapter must be so translated -John Donne
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