[PD] Video problems using GEM
Hi, I am currently working on a project which uses films with GEM. However, the films are very glitchy and play very slowly when they load up. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how to fix this problem? The videos used were taken on a Canon Ixus 127 HS and last between 10 and 15 seconds. They are .MOV files and I even tried exporting them as smaller files but it didn't change their glitchiness. Here is an example of the file before and after the export with the original file being 80.8MB and the exported file being 5.9MB. Even with a drastic change in size, the difference in playback did not change much at all. Any thoughts and ideas welcome. Thanks! attachment: Screen shot 2014-04-17 at 12.08.29.png___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Video problems using GEM
Do you have details on the following: * What operating system you're on * What version of Pd you're using * a sample video * a screenshot of the glitchy video output * A sample patch that produces the glitchy output On 17 April 2014 12:11, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Hi, I am currently working on a project which uses films with GEM. However, the films are very glitchy and play very slowly when they load up. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how to fix this problem? The videos used were taken on a Canon Ixus 127 HS and last between 10 and 15 seconds. They are .MOV files and I even tried exporting them as smaller files but it didn't change their glitchiness. Here is an example of the file before and after the export with the original file being 80.8MB and the exported file being 5.9MB. Even with a drastic change in size, the difference in playback did not change much at all. Any thoughts and ideas welcome. Thanks! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- anto...@hellocatfood.com http://www.hellocatfood.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Video problems using GEM
Operating System is MacOSX 10.8.5 Pd version is Pd Extended 0.43.4 It would be hard to show in a screenshot what the video looks like but it is basically a slowed down version of the original that doesn't run smoothly. The video quality is visible, however. Here is a screenshot of a patch that I've been using as an example too. The two toggles are connected to a bang as it runs within a sequence. Thanks! On 17 April 2014 12:30, Antonio Roberts anto...@hellocatfood.com wrote: Do you have details on the following: * What operating system you're on * What version of Pd you're using * a sample video * a screenshot of the glitchy video output * A sample patch that produces the glitchy output On 17 April 2014 12:11, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Hi, I am currently working on a project which uses films with GEM. However, the films are very glitchy and play very slowly when they load up. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how to fix this problem? The videos used were taken on a Canon Ixus 127 HS and last between 10 and 15 seconds. They are .MOV files and I even tried exporting them as smaller files but it didn't change their glitchiness. Here is an example of the file before and after the export with the original file being 80.8MB and the exported file being 5.9MB. Even with a drastic change in size, the difference in playback did not change much at all. Any thoughts and ideas welcome. Thanks! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- anto...@hellocatfood.com http://www.hellocatfood.com attachment: Screen shot 2014-04-17 at 12.36.21.png___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Video problems using GEM
Assuming that that screenshot is all of the patch (it would be more useful for everyone if you shared the patch instead of a screenshot) then I would assume that there's something happening with the video file. Possibly codec issues or something else. However, without having access to a sample video file it'd be hard to diagnose what's wrong. On 17 April 2014 12:38, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Operating System is MacOSX 10.8.5 Pd version is Pd Extended 0.43.4 It would be hard to show in a screenshot what the video looks like but it is basically a slowed down version of the original that doesn't run smoothly. The video quality is visible, however. Here is a screenshot of a patch that I've been using as an example too. The two toggles are connected to a bang as it runs within a sequence. Thanks! On 17 April 2014 12:30, Antonio Roberts anto...@hellocatfood.com wrote: Do you have details on the following: * What operating system you're on * What version of Pd you're using * a sample video * a screenshot of the glitchy video output * A sample patch that produces the glitchy output On 17 April 2014 12:11, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Hi, I am currently working on a project which uses films with GEM. However, the films are very glitchy and play very slowly when they load up. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how to fix this problem? The videos used were taken on a Canon Ixus 127 HS and last between 10 and 15 seconds. They are .MOV files and I even tried exporting them as smaller files but it didn't change their glitchiness. Here is an example of the file before and after the export with the original file being 80.8MB and the exported file being 5.9MB. Even with a drastic change in size, the difference in playback did not change much at all. Any thoughts and ideas welcome. Thanks! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- anto...@hellocatfood.com http://www.hellocatfood.com -- anto...@hellocatfood.com http://www.hellocatfood.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Video problems using GEM
The issue is with the h.264 codec. On the Mac, compress them as 'Apple Intermediate Codec' or ProRes (which comes with what's left of Final Cut 'Pro'). The files will be much larger in size on the drive but play back much better. When I wrote the OSX pix_film/movie code long ago, it was only intended to play back intraframe codecs like the JPEG based ones and not MPEG which are consumer delivery formats. You should also set the gemwin to render at least 30 frames per second and for smoothest playback use 60fps which is the refresh rate of an LCD. I think the default is still 15 or 20fps? On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Hi, I am currently working on a project which uses films with GEM. However, the films are very glitchy and play very slowly when they load up. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how to fix this problem? The videos used were taken on a Canon Ixus 127 HS and last between 10 and 15 seconds. They are .MOV files and I even tried exporting them as smaller files but it didn't change their glitchiness. Here is an example of the file before and after the export with the original file being 80.8MB and the exported file being 5.9MB. Even with a drastic change in size, the difference in playback did not change much at all. Any thoughts and ideas welcome. Thanks! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Video problems using GEM
Hi Chris, Thanks for your help. Converting the videos to those formats definitely helped. I am using Pure Data in a project which is attempting to create a slideshow. I am also using pix_image in conjunction with pix_film for this project and everytime I have a video playing and load a picture during that time, the video playback slows down. Have you any ideas on how to prevent this? I am using JPEGs taken on the same camera as mentioned above (Canon Ixus 127 HS) and they are between 3MB and 6MB each. The most images I would have banged to load at once is three. Here is some more information on those images. Any thoughts you might have would be a great help. Thank you! On 17 April 2014 14:44, Chris Clepper cgclep...@gmail.com wrote: The issue is with the h.264 codec. On the Mac, compress them as 'Apple Intermediate Codec' or ProRes (which comes with what's left of Final Cut 'Pro'). The files will be much larger in size on the drive but play back much better. When I wrote the OSX pix_film/movie code long ago, it was only intended to play back intraframe codecs like the JPEG based ones and not MPEG which are consumer delivery formats. You should also set the gemwin to render at least 30 frames per second and for smoothest playback use 60fps which is the refresh rate of an LCD. I think the default is still 15 or 20fps? On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Hi, I am currently working on a project which uses films with GEM. However, the films are very glitchy and play very slowly when they load up. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how to fix this problem? The videos used were taken on a Canon Ixus 127 HS and last between 10 and 15 seconds. They are .MOV files and I even tried exporting them as smaller files but it didn't change their glitchiness. Here is an example of the file before and after the export with the original file being 80.8MB and the exported file being 5.9MB. Even with a drastic change in size, the difference in playback did not change much at all. Any thoughts and ideas welcome. Thanks! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list attachment: Screen shot 2014-04-17 at 16.51.12.png___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Video problems using GEM
I wonder if it would work better if you ran 2 Pd instances, loaded the pics in one and ran the movie in the other, then shared the pics to the movie instance with [pix_share_read] and [pix_share_write]? On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Hi Chris, Thanks for your help. Converting the videos to those formats definitely helped. I am using Pure Data in a project which is attempting to create a slideshow. I am also using pix_image in conjunction with pix_film for this project and everytime I have a video playing and load a picture during that time, the video playback slows down. Have you any ideas on how to prevent this? I am using JPEGs taken on the same camera as mentioned above (Canon Ixus 127 HS) and they are between 3MB and 6MB each. The most images I would have banged to load at once is three. Here is some more information on those images. Any thoughts you might have would be a great help. Thank you! On 17 April 2014 14:44, Chris Clepper cgclep...@gmail.com wrote: The issue is with the h.264 codec. On the Mac, compress them as 'Apple Intermediate Codec' or ProRes (which comes with what's left of Final Cut 'Pro'). The files will be much larger in size on the drive but play back much better. When I wrote the OSX pix_film/movie code long ago, it was only intended to play back intraframe codecs like the JPEG based ones and not MPEG which are consumer delivery formats. You should also set the gemwin to render at least 30 frames per second and for smoothest playback use 60fps which is the refresh rate of an LCD. I think the default is still 15 or 20fps? On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Hi, I am currently working on a project which uses films with GEM. However, the films are very glitchy and play very slowly when they load up. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how to fix this problem? The videos used were taken on a Canon Ixus 127 HS and last between 10 and 15 seconds. They are .MOV files and I even tried exporting them as smaller files but it didn't change their glitchiness. Here is an example of the file before and after the export with the original file being 80.8MB and the exported file being 5.9MB. Even with a drastic change in size, the difference in playback did not change much at all. Any thoughts and ideas welcome. Thanks! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Video problems using GEM
Thanks for the suggestion, John. I'll give it a go! On 17 April 2014 17:16, John Harrison john.harri...@alum.mit.edu wrote: I wonder if it would work better if you ran 2 Pd instances, loaded the pics in one and ran the movie in the other, then shared the pics to the movie instance with [pix_share_read] and [pix_share_write]? On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Hi Chris, Thanks for your help. Converting the videos to those formats definitely helped. I am using Pure Data in a project which is attempting to create a slideshow. I am also using pix_image in conjunction with pix_film for this project and everytime I have a video playing and load a picture during that time, the video playback slows down. Have you any ideas on how to prevent this? I am using JPEGs taken on the same camera as mentioned above (Canon Ixus 127 HS) and they are between 3MB and 6MB each. The most images I would have banged to load at once is three. Here is some more information on those images. Any thoughts you might have would be a great help. Thank you! On 17 April 2014 14:44, Chris Clepper cgclep...@gmail.com wrote: The issue is with the h.264 codec. On the Mac, compress them as 'Apple Intermediate Codec' or ProRes (which comes with what's left of Final Cut 'Pro'). The files will be much larger in size on the drive but play back much better. When I wrote the OSX pix_film/movie code long ago, it was only intended to play back intraframe codecs like the JPEG based ones and not MPEG which are consumer delivery formats. You should also set the gemwin to render at least 30 frames per second and for smoothest playback use 60fps which is the refresh rate of an LCD. I think the default is still 15 or 20fps? On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.iewrote: Hi, I am currently working on a project which uses films with GEM. However, the films are very glitchy and play very slowly when they load up. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how to fix this problem? The videos used were taken on a Canon Ixus 127 HS and last between 10 and 15 seconds. They are .MOV files and I even tried exporting them as smaller files but it didn't change their glitchiness. Here is an example of the file before and after the export with the original file being 80.8MB and the exported file being 5.9MB. Even with a drastic change in size, the difference in playback did not change much at all. Any thoughts and ideas welcome. Thanks! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Video problems using GEM
Does the video just slow down while the image is loading from the disk or does it stay slow after the image is loaded? If it is the disk access that slows everything down, preload the still images into a pix_buffer when the patch starts and then display the images out of RAM. I would also resize the stills to no larger than the resolution of the display. 4600x3456 is a large texture for OpenGL. On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Hi Chris, Thanks for your help. Converting the videos to those formats definitely helped. I am using Pure Data in a project which is attempting to create a slideshow. I am also using pix_image in conjunction with pix_film for this project and everytime I have a video playing and load a picture during that time, the video playback slows down. Have you any ideas on how to prevent this? I am using JPEGs taken on the same camera as mentioned above (Canon Ixus 127 HS) and they are between 3MB and 6MB each. The most images I would have banged to load at once is three. Here is some more information on those images. Any thoughts you might have would be a great help. Thank you! On 17 April 2014 14:44, Chris Clepper cgclep...@gmail.com wrote: The issue is with the h.264 codec. On the Mac, compress them as 'Apple Intermediate Codec' or ProRes (which comes with what's left of Final Cut 'Pro'). The files will be much larger in size on the drive but play back much better. When I wrote the OSX pix_film/movie code long ago, it was only intended to play back intraframe codecs like the JPEG based ones and not MPEG which are consumer delivery formats. You should also set the gemwin to render at least 30 frames per second and for smoothest playback use 60fps which is the refresh rate of an LCD. I think the default is still 15 or 20fps? On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Hi, I am currently working on a project which uses films with GEM. However, the films are very glitchy and play very slowly when they load up. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how to fix this problem? The videos used were taken on a Canon Ixus 127 HS and last between 10 and 15 seconds. They are .MOV files and I even tried exporting them as smaller files but it didn't change their glitchiness. Here is an example of the file before and after the export with the original file being 80.8MB and the exported file being 5.9MB. Even with a drastic change in size, the difference in playback did not change much at all. Any thoughts and ideas welcome. Thanks! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Video problems using GEM
I have a metro set to load pictures every 5 seconds so they are constantly loading and the video remains slowed down even between each load. It seems to slow everything down however, as the metro does not bang precisely after 5 seconds, it usually takes longer and is unreliable. I haven't used pix_buffer before but will have a look into it and hopefully that should resolve the issue. Thanks so much again! On 17 April 2014 17:34, Chris Clepper cgclep...@gmail.com wrote: Does the video just slow down while the image is loading from the disk or does it stay slow after the image is loaded? If it is the disk access that slows everything down, preload the still images into a pix_buffer when the patch starts and then display the images out of RAM. I would also resize the stills to no larger than the resolution of the display. 4600x3456 is a large texture for OpenGL. On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Hi Chris, Thanks for your help. Converting the videos to those formats definitely helped. I am using Pure Data in a project which is attempting to create a slideshow. I am also using pix_image in conjunction with pix_film for this project and everytime I have a video playing and load a picture during that time, the video playback slows down. Have you any ideas on how to prevent this? I am using JPEGs taken on the same camera as mentioned above (Canon Ixus 127 HS) and they are between 3MB and 6MB each. The most images I would have banged to load at once is three. Here is some more information on those images. Any thoughts you might have would be a great help. Thank you! On 17 April 2014 14:44, Chris Clepper cgclep...@gmail.com wrote: The issue is with the h.264 codec. On the Mac, compress them as 'Apple Intermediate Codec' or ProRes (which comes with what's left of Final Cut 'Pro'). The files will be much larger in size on the drive but play back much better. When I wrote the OSX pix_film/movie code long ago, it was only intended to play back intraframe codecs like the JPEG based ones and not MPEG which are consumer delivery formats. You should also set the gemwin to render at least 30 frames per second and for smoothest playback use 60fps which is the refresh rate of an LCD. I think the default is still 15 or 20fps? On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.iewrote: Hi, I am currently working on a project which uses films with GEM. However, the films are very glitchy and play very slowly when they load up. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how to fix this problem? The videos used were taken on a Canon Ixus 127 HS and last between 10 and 15 seconds. They are .MOV files and I even tried exporting them as smaller files but it didn't change their glitchiness. Here is an example of the file before and after the export with the original file being 80.8MB and the exported file being 5.9MB. Even with a drastic change in size, the difference in playback did not change much at all. Any thoughts and ideas welcome. Thanks! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Video problems using GEM
I created pix_share for HD videos in cases like this, but it is a little tricky to use. On OSX, you need to edit some deep OS config files to set up the shm correctly. For images at 16MP, the settings will need to be pretty large too or it will be very slow. It's not for the uninitiated! pix_buffer is much easier to use for this, provided all of the images can fit in RAM or less than 4GB total for one Pd process. On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 12:16 PM, John Harrison john.harri...@alum.mit.eduwrote: I wonder if it would work better if you ran 2 Pd instances, loaded the pics in one and ran the movie in the other, then shared the pics to the movie instance with [pix_share_read] and [pix_share_write]? On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.ie wrote: Hi Chris, Thanks for your help. Converting the videos to those formats definitely helped. I am using Pure Data in a project which is attempting to create a slideshow. I am also using pix_image in conjunction with pix_film for this project and everytime I have a video playing and load a picture during that time, the video playback slows down. Have you any ideas on how to prevent this? I am using JPEGs taken on the same camera as mentioned above (Canon Ixus 127 HS) and they are between 3MB and 6MB each. The most images I would have banged to load at once is three. Here is some more information on those images. Any thoughts you might have would be a great help. Thank you! On 17 April 2014 14:44, Chris Clepper cgclep...@gmail.com wrote: The issue is with the h.264 codec. On the Mac, compress them as 'Apple Intermediate Codec' or ProRes (which comes with what's left of Final Cut 'Pro'). The files will be much larger in size on the drive but play back much better. When I wrote the OSX pix_film/movie code long ago, it was only intended to play back intraframe codecs like the JPEG based ones and not MPEG which are consumer delivery formats. You should also set the gemwin to render at least 30 frames per second and for smoothest playback use 60fps which is the refresh rate of an LCD. I think the default is still 15 or 20fps? On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.iewrote: Hi, I am currently working on a project which uses films with GEM. However, the films are very glitchy and play very slowly when they load up. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how to fix this problem? The videos used were taken on a Canon Ixus 127 HS and last between 10 and 15 seconds. They are .MOV files and I even tried exporting them as smaller files but it didn't change their glitchiness. Here is an example of the file before and after the export with the original file being 80.8MB and the exported file being 5.9MB. Even with a drastic change in size, the difference in playback did not change much at all. Any thoughts and ideas welcome. Thanks! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Video problems using GEM
That does sound quite complicated. I'll see how I get on with pix_buffer; it could be the answer to all of my problems! Either way, converting my video files to AIC files has helped immensely so that's a big problem out of the way :) On 17 April 2014 17:44, Chris Clepper cgclep...@gmail.com wrote: I created pix_share for HD videos in cases like this, but it is a little tricky to use. On OSX, you need to edit some deep OS config files to set up the shm correctly. For images at 16MP, the settings will need to be pretty large too or it will be very slow. It's not for the uninitiated! pix_buffer is much easier to use for this, provided all of the images can fit in RAM or less than 4GB total for one Pd process. On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 12:16 PM, John Harrison john.harri...@alum.mit.edu wrote: I wonder if it would work better if you ran 2 Pd instances, loaded the pics in one and ran the movie in the other, then shared the pics to the movie instance with [pix_share_read] and [pix_share_write]? On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.iewrote: Hi Chris, Thanks for your help. Converting the videos to those formats definitely helped. I am using Pure Data in a project which is attempting to create a slideshow. I am also using pix_image in conjunction with pix_film for this project and everytime I have a video playing and load a picture during that time, the video playback slows down. Have you any ideas on how to prevent this? I am using JPEGs taken on the same camera as mentioned above (Canon Ixus 127 HS) and they are between 3MB and 6MB each. The most images I would have banged to load at once is three. Here is some more information on those images. Any thoughts you might have would be a great help. Thank you! On 17 April 2014 14:44, Chris Clepper cgclep...@gmail.com wrote: The issue is with the h.264 codec. On the Mac, compress them as 'Apple Intermediate Codec' or ProRes (which comes with what's left of Final Cut 'Pro'). The files will be much larger in size on the drive but play back much better. When I wrote the OSX pix_film/movie code long ago, it was only intended to play back intraframe codecs like the JPEG based ones and not MPEG which are consumer delivery formats. You should also set the gemwin to render at least 30 frames per second and for smoothest playback use 60fps which is the refresh rate of an LCD. I think the default is still 15 or 20fps? On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Claire O'Connor oconn...@tcd.iewrote: Hi, I am currently working on a project which uses films with GEM. However, the films are very glitchy and play very slowly when they load up. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how to fix this problem? The videos used were taken on a Canon Ixus 127 HS and last between 10 and 15 seconds. They are .MOV files and I even tried exporting them as smaller files but it didn't change their glitchiness. Here is an example of the file before and after the export with the original file being 80.8MB and the exported file being 5.9MB. Even with a drastic change in size, the difference in playback did not change much at all. Any thoughts and ideas welcome. Thanks! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
