Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-08-09 Thread Mathieu Bouchard
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Oops, there was supposed to be a second part to that, which is a question: So why couldn't meta-messages all be lists, basically because it is like it is. i guess that if someone (not completely naive; and with an eye on

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-08-09 Thread Mathieu Bouchard
On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: somehow functional languages like lisp manage to do well with lists and dealing the head of a list (selector) in various special ways without making the head be different from the elements of the tail. Lists in LISP have little to do with Pd's

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-08 Thread Frank Barknecht
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: I think it would be possible to make a library that treated every message with more than one element as a list. It would be a library of pack, unpack, prepend, append, route, etc. Like [list append], [list

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-08 Thread IOhannes m zmoelnig
Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, IOhannes m zmoelnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: basically because it is like it is. i guess that if someone (not completely naive; and with an eye on language-design and not just tool-design) would go and re-invent the wheel, they would make lists

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-08 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner
On Apr 8, 2009, at 6:51 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, IOhannes m zmoelnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: basically because it is like it is. i guess that if someone (not completely naive; and with an eye on language-design and not just

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-07 Thread Frank Barknecht
Hallo, Jonathan Wilkes hat gesagt: // Jonathan Wilkes wrote: It wouldn't confuse anyone at all if there were no meta-messages. Then Pd objects would only be able to handle bang, float, list and symbol messages (and some selected others like Gem lists) - but no set, open, read, reset, stop,

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-07 Thread IOhannes m zmoelnig
Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Oops, there was supposed to be a second part to that, which is a question: So why couldn't meta-messages all be lists, and whatever part of Pd it is that checks for meta-messages just checks the first item of the incoming list for set, add2, etc.? basically because

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-07 Thread Jonathan Wilkes
--- On Tue, 4/7/09, Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org wrote: From: Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org Subject: Re: [PD] a story for Lists To: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 8:54 AM Hallo, Jonathan Wilkes hat gesagt: // Jonathan Wilkes wrote: It wouldn't confuse anyone

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-07 Thread Jonathan Wilkes
--- On Tue, 4/7/09, IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoel...@iem.at wrote: From: IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoel...@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] a story for Lists To: jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 12:08 PM Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Oops, there was supposed

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-07 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner
On Apr 7, 2009, at 6:08 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Oops, there was supposed to be a second part to that, which is a question: So why couldn't meta-messages all be lists, and whatever part of Pd it is that checks for meta-messages just checks the first item of

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Frank Barknecht
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: In keeping with the FLOSSmanuals methodology, we need a story to tell when introducing lists. I have the intro done, but now we need a story (i.e. developing an example program). I was thinking that a story

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread padawan12
This has always confused me, and even in my book I took a simplified approach to explaining lists. It is definitely worth working hard on this passage to choose clear and agreed words. a. Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: In keeping with the

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Derek Holzer
This is all well and good, but no new Pd user is going to read all this, let alone know what to do with it ;-) For the FLOSS Manuals book, I've asked people to be less theoretical and more concentrated on real life examples which do real life things, rather than extended lists of taxonomies.

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Frank Barknecht
Hallo, Derek Holzer hat gesagt: // Derek Holzer wrote: This is all well and good, but no new Pd user is going to read all this, let alone know what to do with it ;-) It was more for Andy. ;) For the FLOSS book I would just silently use the term list-message whenever you talk about

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Steffen Juul
On 06/04/2009, at 8.49, Frank Barknecht wrote: I would also strongly recommend to use a consistent terminology for lists that are not lists in the Pd sense: I would call them meta-messages just like Miller does, and if there's ambiguity the manual should call proper lists list-messages.

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Frank Barknecht
Hallo, Jonathan Wilkes hat gesagt: // Jonathan Wilkes wrote: So is it a bug that [20 foo(--[print] posts 20 foo instead of list 20 foo? Message-rule #1: Never believe anything [print] prints. Message-rule #2: messages starting with a number don't need any other selector like list or float,

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread IOhannes m zmoelnig
Jonathan Wilkes wrote: So is it a bug that [20 foo(--[print] posts 20 foo instead of list 20 foo? no it's a feature to not confuse the noob (at the cost of confusing post-noobs) fgmasdr IOhannes smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Frank Barknecht
Hallo, Steffen Juul hat gesagt: // Steffen Juul wrote: On 06/04/2009, at 8.49, Frank Barknecht wrote: I would also strongly recommend to use a consistent terminology for lists that are not lists in the Pd sense: I would call them meta-messages just like Miller does, and if there's

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Jonathan Wilkes
So is it a bug that [20 foo(--[print] posts 20 foo instead of list 20 foo? -Jonathan --- On Mon, 4/6/09, Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org wrote: From: Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org Subject: Re: [PD] a story for Lists To: pd list pd-list@iem.at Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 10:54 AM

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Derek Holzer
Thanks Frank. This was a question which came up in discussion between Hans and I yesterday, which was on the verge of getting very confusing! I think this suggestion might help Hans with his writing. best! Derek Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Derek Holzer hat gesagt: // Derek Holzer wrote:

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Frank Barknecht
Hallo, padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk hat gesagt: // padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk wrote: This has always confused me, and even in my book I took a simplified approach to explaining lists. It is definitely worth working hard on this passage to choose clear and agreed words. I think, the main

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner
/6/09, Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org wrote: From: Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org Subject: Re: [PD] a story for Lists To: pd list pd-list@iem.at Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 10:54 AM Hallo, Steffen Juul hat gesagt: // Steffen Juul wrote: On 06/04/2009, at 8.49, Frank Barknecht wrote: I

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner
For this book, I think its good to avoid the confusing part altogether, at least until much later. The lists chapter can work with lists of numbers only. Then there is little confusion. So if there was a good story based on lists of numbers, it would guide the beginner thru the

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Mathieu Bouchard
On Mon, 6 Apr 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: So is it a bug that [20 foo(--[print] posts 20 foo instead of list 20 foo? No, it's just a shortcut. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal,

Re: [PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-06 Thread Jonathan Wilkes
--- On Mon, 4/6/09, IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoel...@iem.at wrote: From: IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoel...@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] a story for Lists To: pd list pd-list@iem.at Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 11:41 AM Jonathan Wilkes wrote: So is it a bug that [20 foo(--[print] posts 20 foo

[PD] a story for Lists

2009-04-05 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner
In keeping with the FLOSSmanuals methodology, we need a story to tell when introducing lists. I have the intro done, but now we need a story (i.e. developing an example program). I was thinking that a story involving only lists of numbers would be a good place to start. Anyone have any