Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-09 Thread Simon Wise

On 09/02/14 16:34, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

On 02/08/2014 11:44 PM, Simon Wise wrote:


...


It would be nice to be able to do this natively, especially since many Pd
programmers are not that familiar with procedural programming. It is certainly
practical and worthwhile to extend Pd for this but that requires some of the
things that have been long put off till later for a very very long time.
Meanwhile the Lua external provides the way to do what remains problematic
natively (as much due to policy as anything else) and anyone capable of adding
functionality to Pd will find it much much easier to use Lau than to engage in
a huge and perhaps fruitless effort to push it into Pd.


It sounds like you are rationalizing and encouraging non-development.


More pointing out the frustrations that have been experienced in the past, and 
noting that decisions about what is added to Pd core are very consistent and are 
very careful, cautious and slow in these areas in particular. As you pointed out 
adding something like a string type without introducing it to [print] is not 
good, so ... you use clumsy workarounds that don't actually allow strings in 
messages, perhaps just pointers to stings with arcane results in [print] ... or 
write a bunch of replacement core objects that recognise strings to use within 
the library such as [stringprint] etc ... or use a fork with enhanced types and 
core objects that may or may not be compatible with some eventual core string type.


It may be worth enhancing pd-l2ork this way as it has already departed 
considerably from pd, their choice has been to speed up development by bypassing 
these issues and pushing ahead without integration with core Pd, but I think 
adding strings confined to a small set of string-aware objects which remain 
otherwise compatible with vanilla the way gridflow added matrices isn't worth 
it, there is a much greater pay-off with matrices ... gridflow is a huge project 
with a very substantial library of matrix operations, while the authors long ago 
abandoned hope of their efforts being included in vanilla and develop in 
parallel. Development effort on a smaller scale is probably better spent in ways 
that will integrate with core pd, and there are plenty of those ... including 
your own solid efforts.




But it also sounds like we agree that there is nothing about boxes of text
connected with lines that makes string manipulation more difficult than lines of
text.


Absolutely, just the absence of a well defined string type that can be sent down 
those lines. Arguments advancing the addition of a string selector to Pd core 
are very worthwhile, I guess probably on pd-dev? it ultimately is a discussion 
with Miller. There was a link to something being worked on currently, earlier in 
this thread.



Simon

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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-08 Thread Jonathan Wilkes

On 02/08/2014 11:44 PM, Simon Wise wrote:

On 09/02/14 07:59, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

On 02/08/2014 01:40 PM, Martin Peach wrote:
A few years ago I implemented a patch for strings in Pd that adds a 
string or
blob type that allows (I think) for what you are describing. I 
believe it's

still part of Pd extended, but Miller didn't like it for some reason.


...

I prefer to manipulate strings in a another language as it just 
seems like a
lot of work to make it happen with boxes and wires when you can just 
call

string functions in a high level language.


...


Kind of like building a Turing machine holes-in-paper-tape version of a
program, it can be an interesting exercise but practically it's 
useless.


Read in transcript of congressional testimony on NSA surveillance.
Split into one string for each line.
Read one line every second.
If a line contains the word "terrorism" make a sound.
User takes a drink.

Totally useful. :)

What is it about boxes connected with lines that you think makes this 
difficult?


Perhaps it is the long term and very well established resistance to 
adding a few types to the message syntax ... integers capable of 
indexing reasonable file lengths, strings which don't flood the symbol 
table, floats that aren't in danger of being truncated, bytes or chars 
which won't trigger parsing issues. Matrices are available  via an 
external library (gridflow, within its own externals including 
non-native print and so forth) and GPU video access is possible via 
GEM with its private message syntax, but core Pd is very focussed on 
what it originally set out to do. There have been some moves on this, 
just very slow and careful ones.


A graphical dataflow language is very nice for dealing with DSP and 
with control and interaction logic, and for doing so in a bunch of 
machines distributed over a network. Pd has lots of good ways to 
receive and send control messages and link with hardware and other 
programs. But dataflow and procedural algorithms are quite different 
and parsing strings is a very common thing to do when programming ... 
if you are familiar with the procedural way and have a good set of 
tools available to abstract the details then its easier to just go 
with what you know.


It would be nice to be able to do this natively, especially since many 
Pd programmers are not that familiar with procedural programming. It 
is certainly practical and worthwhile to extend Pd for this but that 
requires some of the things that have been long put off till later for 
a very very long time. Meanwhile the Lua external provides the way to 
do what remains problematic natively (as much due to policy as 
anything else) and anyone capable of adding functionality to Pd will 
find it much much easier to use Lau than to engage in a huge and 
perhaps fruitless effort to push it into Pd.


It sounds like you are rationalizing and encouraging non-development.

But it also sounds like we agree that there is nothing about boxes of 
text connected with lines that makes string manipulation more difficult 
than lines of text.


-Jonathan



Simon

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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-08 Thread Simon Wise

On 09/02/14 07:59, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

On 02/08/2014 01:40 PM, Martin Peach wrote:

A few years ago I implemented a patch for strings in Pd that adds a string or
blob type that allows (I think) for what you are describing. I believe it's
still part of Pd extended, but Miller didn't like it for some reason.


...


I prefer to manipulate strings in a another language as it just seems like a
lot of work to make it happen with boxes and wires when you can just call
string functions in a high level language.


...


Kind of like building a Turing machine holes-in-paper-tape version of a
program, it can be an interesting exercise but practically it's useless.


Read in transcript of congressional testimony on NSA surveillance.
Split into one string for each line.
Read one line every second.
If a line contains the word "terrorism" make a sound.
User takes a drink.

Totally useful. :)

What is it about boxes connected with lines that you think makes this difficult?


Perhaps it is the long term and very well established resistance to adding a few 
types to the message syntax ... integers capable of indexing reasonable file 
lengths, strings which don't flood the symbol table, floats that aren't in 
danger of being truncated, bytes or chars which won't trigger parsing issues. 
Matrices are available  via an external library (gridflow, within its own 
externals including non-native print and so forth) and GPU video access is 
possible via GEM with its private message syntax, but core Pd is very focussed 
on what it originally set out to do. There have been some moves on this, just 
very slow and careful ones.


A graphical dataflow language is very nice for dealing with DSP and with control 
and interaction logic, and for doing so in a bunch of machines distributed over 
a network. Pd has lots of good ways to receive and send control messages and 
link with hardware and other programs. But dataflow and procedural algorithms 
are quite different and parsing strings is a very common thing to do when 
programming ... if you are familiar with the procedural way and have a good set 
of tools available to abstract the details then its easier to just go with what 
you know.


It would be nice to be able to do this natively, especially since many Pd 
programmers are not that familiar with procedural programming. It is certainly 
practical and worthwhile to extend Pd for this but that requires some of the 
things that have been long put off till later for a very very long time. 
Meanwhile the Lua external provides the way to do what remains problematic 
natively (as much due to policy as anything else) and anyone capable of adding 
functionality to Pd will find it much much easier to use Lau than to engage in a 
huge and perhaps fruitless effort to push it into Pd.


Simon

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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-08 Thread Fero Kiraly
thanks frieds for direction.

I did a patch . with pyext. and it works !

it does what i want:

- check mail box with given subject
- count mails with given subject

BUT

I cant have a trigger (bang) from that. it i strange. Even if my pyext
object fills nbx with numbers, it won't give a bang. I think it is a bug.

my situation is:

[nbx] - with changing number of mails from pyext object (works ok)
|
|
bang -> BUT this bang never works. It is bug. or ?

[archinux, pdextended 43.5]




-- 
Fero Kiraly
pianist, musician, teacher
www.ferokiraly.com
www.cluster-ensemble.com
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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-08 Thread Jonathan Wilkes

On 02/08/2014 01:40 PM, Martin Peach wrote:
A few years ago I implemented a patch for strings in Pd that adds a 
string or blob type that allows (I think) for what you are describing. 
I believe it's still part of Pd extended, but Miller didn't like it 
for some reason.


It looks more like a prototype for a string implementation.  I'm not 
even able to do this:


[bng]
|
[str hello_world]
|
[print]

Additionally, moving the cord-inspector over the wire connecting 
displays nothing.  Those are just the first two things I tried to do as 
a user, to view a core atom type which most of the time will be holding 
readable text.


It may seem trivial to get those two things to work, but the point is 
that someone has to do it, for every single internal and external class 
which already understands and can manipulate the one string atom but 
doesn't understand the better string atom.


[str hello 32 world] isn't much fun, either.  But it's hard to improve 
that without the ability for the object box to leave the user input 
unparsed.


I prefer to manipulate strings in a another language as it just seems 
like a lot of work to make it happen with boxes and wires when you can 
just call string functions in a high level language.


I don't understand this.  If you take nearly every string manipulation I 
did in tcl for the search-plugin and put it in Pd, you are either a) 
unrolling several commands in nested square brackets and laying them out 
vertically (or inside an abstraction) or b) putting a tcl line of code 
in a box and connecting its output to the next line of tcl code in a box 
with a wire.  If "a" is troublesome to patch and read in Pd then it was 
hard to write and read in tcl.


There are of course way more complex examples of string manipulation, 
but Pd's tools don't have to be perfect to be useful.


Kind of like building a Turing machine holes-in-paper-tape version of 
a program, it can be an interesting exercise but practically it's 
useless.


Read in transcript of congressional testimony on NSA surveillance.
Split into one string for each line.
Read one line every second.
If a line contains the word "terrorism" make a sound.
User takes a drink.

Totally useful. :)

What is it about boxes connected with lines that you think makes this 
difficult?


-Jonathan



Martin

On 2014-02-08 03:14, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

On 02/08/2014 01:26 AM, Martin Peach wrote:

You can manipulate strings in pdlua and only export the symbols you
want; yes you need to learn lua but it's not very hard.


That's good practical advice for getting work done with strings atm. But
it's irrelevant to getting decent string manipulation within Pd, meaning
using boxes connected with wires.

The reason for wanting to do string manipulation within Pd is just as
obvious as the question that I didn't have to ask and which you
addressed after your semicolon.

-Jonathan



Martin

On 2014-02-08 01:10, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

On 02/06/2014 01:53 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:

On 06/02/14 06:29, pured...@11h11.com wrote:

but pd is not really good with strings afaik

Maybe soon:

https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/8a02332a5fb68edc2899e2f13513c77f0796d21b/ 





https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/49ffcf8ba5cdde7660e82f1e190fcee7c6fa5627/ 





:)


One of the reasons (I think) the string manipulation libs in Pd 
extended

haven't caught on is because they seem to force users to care directly
about character codes.  If I want to pass the string "hello{world}"
around in Pd, I should not have to know the codes for curly braces 
just

to create that string in an object box.

To work, this will require a new set of GUI classes that allow the 
user
to type strings that get saved underneath as character codes, as 
well as
display lists of character codes as a string in the patch. I don't 
know

any externals that do this, but it shouldn't be hard if you're sending
the text to the GUI as floats.  Also, you need i/o classes to read 
from

and write to files without having to pass through lists of symbols and
floats as intermediaries. Otherwise, you will lose data on the read.
Finally, you can't leverage any of the extant symbol manipulation 
tools,

because then you run into symbol-table growth, dollsym
substitutions/escapes, and all the other problems that I assume are 
the
reason for introducing lists of character codes.  Otherwise you're 
just
pushing the current problems users have with symbols to the edges 
of the

new string library.

I understand the desire for this approach, and it's probably less work
than making symbols deallocatable.  But if the user has to stare at
character codes just to get around the limitations of symbol atoms,
they'll probably just use symbol atoms and work within Pd's current
limitations for string processing.

-Jonathan


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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-08 Thread Martin Peach
A few years ago I implemented a patch for strings in Pd that adds a 
string or blob type that allows (I think) for what you are describing. I 
believe it's still part of Pd extended, but Miller didn't like it for 
some reason.
I prefer to manipulate strings in a another language as it just seems 
like a lot of work to make it happen with boxes and wires when you can 
just call string functions in a high level language.
Kind of like building a Turing machine holes-in-paper-tape version of a 
program, it can be an interesting exercise but practically it's useless.


Martin

On 2014-02-08 03:14, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

On 02/08/2014 01:26 AM, Martin Peach wrote:

You can manipulate strings in pdlua and only export the symbols you
want; yes you need to learn lua but it's not very hard.


That's good practical advice for getting work done with strings atm. But
it's irrelevant to getting decent string manipulation within Pd, meaning
using boxes connected with wires.

The reason for wanting to do string manipulation within Pd is just as
obvious as the question that I didn't have to ask and which you
addressed after your semicolon.

-Jonathan



Martin

On 2014-02-08 01:10, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

On 02/06/2014 01:53 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:

On 06/02/14 06:29, pured...@11h11.com wrote:

but pd is not really good with strings afaik

Maybe soon:

https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/8a02332a5fb68edc2899e2f13513c77f0796d21b/



https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/49ffcf8ba5cdde7660e82f1e190fcee7c6fa5627/



:)


One of the reasons (I think) the string manipulation libs in Pd extended
haven't caught on is because they seem to force users to care directly
about character codes.  If I want to pass the string "hello{world}"
around in Pd, I should not have to know the codes for curly braces just
to create that string in an object box.

To work, this will require a new set of GUI classes that allow the user
to type strings that get saved underneath as character codes, as well as
display lists of character codes as a string in the patch.  I don't know
any externals that do this, but it shouldn't be hard if you're sending
the text to the GUI as floats.  Also, you need i/o classes to read from
and write to files without having to pass through lists of symbols and
floats as intermediaries. Otherwise, you will lose data on the read.
Finally, you can't leverage any of the extant symbol manipulation tools,
because then you run into symbol-table growth, dollsym
substitutions/escapes, and all the other problems that I assume are the
reason for introducing lists of character codes.  Otherwise you're just
pushing the current problems users have with symbols to the edges of the
new string library.

I understand the desire for this approach, and it's probably less work
than making symbols deallocatable.  But if the user has to stare at
character codes just to get around the limitations of symbol atoms,
they'll probably just use symbol atoms and work within Pd's current
limitations for string processing.

-Jonathan


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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-08 Thread Jonathan Wilkes

On 02/08/2014 01:26 AM, Martin Peach wrote:
You can manipulate strings in pdlua and only export the symbols you 
want; yes you need to learn lua but it's not very hard.


That's good practical advice for getting work done with strings atm.  
But it's irrelevant to getting decent string manipulation within Pd, 
meaning using boxes connected with wires.


The reason for wanting to do string manipulation within Pd is just as 
obvious as the question that I didn't have to ask and which you 
addressed after your semicolon.


-Jonathan



Martin

On 2014-02-08 01:10, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

On 02/06/2014 01:53 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:

On 06/02/14 06:29, pured...@11h11.com wrote:

but pd is not really good with strings afaik

Maybe soon:

https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/8a02332a5fb68edc2899e2f13513c77f0796d21b/ 




https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/49ffcf8ba5cdde7660e82f1e190fcee7c6fa5627/ 




:)


One of the reasons (I think) the string manipulation libs in Pd extended
haven't caught on is because they seem to force users to care directly
about character codes.  If I want to pass the string "hello{world}"
around in Pd, I should not have to know the codes for curly braces just
to create that string in an object box.

To work, this will require a new set of GUI classes that allow the user
to type strings that get saved underneath as character codes, as well as
display lists of character codes as a string in the patch.  I don't know
any externals that do this, but it shouldn't be hard if you're sending
the text to the GUI as floats.  Also, you need i/o classes to read from
and write to files without having to pass through lists of symbols and
floats as intermediaries. Otherwise, you will lose data on the read.
Finally, you can't leverage any of the extant symbol manipulation tools,
because then you run into symbol-table growth, dollsym
substitutions/escapes, and all the other problems that I assume are the
reason for introducing lists of character codes.  Otherwise you're just
pushing the current problems users have with symbols to the edges of the
new string library.

I understand the desire for this approach, and it's probably less work
than making symbols deallocatable.  But if the user has to stare at
character codes just to get around the limitations of symbol atoms,
they'll probably just use symbol atoms and work within Pd's current
limitations for string processing.

-Jonathan


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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-07 Thread Martin Peach
You can manipulate strings in pdlua and only export the symbols you 
want; yes you need to learn lua but it's not very hard.


Martin

On 2014-02-08 01:10, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

On 02/06/2014 01:53 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:

On 06/02/14 06:29, pured...@11h11.com wrote:

but pd is not really good with strings afaik

Maybe soon:

https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/8a02332a5fb68edc2899e2f13513c77f0796d21b/


https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/49ffcf8ba5cdde7660e82f1e190fcee7c6fa5627/


:)


One of the reasons (I think) the string manipulation libs in Pd extended
haven't caught on is because they seem to force users to care directly
about character codes.  If I want to pass the string "hello{world}"
around in Pd, I should not have to know the codes for curly braces just
to create that string in an object box.

To work, this will require a new set of GUI classes that allow the user
to type strings that get saved underneath as character codes, as well as
display lists of character codes as a string in the patch.  I don't know
any externals that do this, but it shouldn't be hard if you're sending
the text to the GUI as floats.  Also, you need i/o classes to read from
and write to files without having to pass through lists of symbols and
floats as intermediaries. Otherwise, you will lose data on the read.
Finally, you can't leverage any of the extant symbol manipulation tools,
because then you run into symbol-table growth, dollsym
substitutions/escapes, and all the other problems that I assume are the
reason for introducing lists of character codes.  Otherwise you're just
pushing the current problems users have with symbols to the edges of the
new string library.

I understand the desire for this approach, and it's probably less work
than making symbols deallocatable.  But if the user has to stare at
character codes just to get around the limitations of symbol atoms,
they'll probably just use symbol atoms and work within Pd's current
limitations for string processing.

-Jonathan


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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-07 Thread Jonathan Wilkes

On 02/06/2014 01:53 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:

On 06/02/14 06:29, pured...@11h11.com wrote:

but pd is not really good with strings afaik

Maybe soon:

https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/8a02332a5fb68edc2899e2f13513c77f0796d21b/

https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/49ffcf8ba5cdde7660e82f1e190fcee7c6fa5627/

:)


One of the reasons (I think) the string manipulation libs in Pd extended 
haven't caught on is because they seem to force users to care directly 
about character codes.  If I want to pass the string "hello{world}" 
around in Pd, I should not have to know the codes for curly braces just 
to create that string in an object box.


To work, this will require a new set of GUI classes that allow the user 
to type strings that get saved underneath as character codes, as well as 
display lists of character codes as a string in the patch.  I don't know 
any externals that do this, but it shouldn't be hard if you're sending 
the text to the GUI as floats.  Also, you need i/o classes to read from 
and write to files without having to pass through lists of symbols and 
floats as intermediaries. Otherwise, you will lose data on the read.  
Finally, you can't leverage any of the extant symbol manipulation tools, 
because then you run into symbol-table growth, dollsym 
substitutions/escapes, and all the other problems that I assume are the 
reason for introducing lists of character codes.  Otherwise you're just 
pushing the current problems users have with symbols to the edges of the 
new string library.


I understand the desire for this approach, and it's probably less work 
than making symbols deallocatable.  But if the user has to stare at 
character codes just to get around the limitations of symbol atoms, 
they'll probably just use symbol atoms and work within Pd's current 
limitations for string processing.


-Jonathan


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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-05 Thread Chris McCormick
On 06/02/14 06:29, pured...@11h11.com wrote:
> but pd is not really good with strings afaik

Maybe soon:

https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/8a02332a5fb68edc2899e2f13513c77f0796d21b/

https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/49ffcf8ba5cdde7660e82f1e190fcee7c6fa5627/

:)

Cheers,

Chris.

-- 
http://mccormick.cx/
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#X obj 50 275 list prepend set;
#X obj 50 297 list trim;
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#X msg 50 58 symbol dog/cat/mouse;
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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-05 Thread Jonathan Wilkes

On 02/05/2014 05:29 PM, pured...@11h11.com wrote:

yes possible, for example using py/ext with a script like this one:
http://libgmail.sourceforge.net/

but pd is not really good with strings afaik


If you use Pd and have a use case where you're controling both the 
sending and receiving of the messages, then you can limit the message 
content to use only what Pd's message parser can handle.


Also, make sure the machine you're using has never had or will never 
have anything of interest on it.  On the other hand, I guess you could 
leave a Bitcoin wallet on there and think of your impending hack as a 
virtual Halloween treat.


-Jonathan


à+

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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-05 Thread Jack
Le 05/02/2014 15:35, Fero Kiraly a écrit :
> is it possibile ?
>
> thanks.
>
> fero
>
>
>
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Just try it with [tcpclient] on Ubuntu and it works fine.
See patch attached.
++

Jack




get_mail.pd
Description: application/puredata
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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-05 Thread IOhannes m zmoelnig
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 2014-02-05 16:02, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> On 2014-02-05 15:35, Fero Kiraly wrote:
>> is it possibile ?
> 
> 
> depends on what you really want to do.
> 
> i've once written an MTA in Pd (that is a mail-server, as opposed
> to the mail-client you want).

http://puredata.info/downloads/pd-mail/

the project page speaks of having both "MTA" and "MUA" implemented,
but in this context "MUA" (user client) really only means "sending
MUA" and not "MUA for reading emails"

fgamdsr
IOhannes
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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-05 Thread IOhannes m zmoelnig
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 2014-02-05 15:35, Fero Kiraly wrote:
> is it possibile ?
> 

depends on what you really want to do.

i've once written an MTA in Pd (that is a mail-server, as opposed to
the mail-client you want).
communicating with an imap server is not very complicated (as long as
there is no encryption involved), so it should be *quite* easy to do
that in Pd.
i guess the biggest problem is to present the email(s) to the user.

fgasmdr
IOhannes

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Version: GnuPG v1
Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/

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Re: [PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-05 Thread puredata

yes possible, for example using py/ext with a script like this one:
http://libgmail.sourceforge.net/

but pd is not really good with strings afaik
à+

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[PD] check mail with pd ?

2014-02-05 Thread Fero Kiraly
is it possibile ?

thanks.

fero
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