Re: [PD] bugs with [hip~] and [bp~]
Attached patch illustrates how [iemlib/hp1~] is calculated. This gives a perfect hipass, [hip~] could (or should) be done the same way I guess. Katja On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 6:21 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com wrote: This message of mine was intended to be a bug report I see, but my point is that it's not much of a bug, so if you want to see how these filters work more deeply, you may check my stuff. You can see how I made versions of the filters as [fexpr~] or [biquad~] and the raw filters. I made [vcf~] out of [cpole~], for example. And you can check the plot of magnitude/phase. I know (and enjoy very much) yours Computer Music With Examples In Pd. Thanks. That got old though... I translated from portuguese what I had for a workshop at the last pd convention in 2011, but it's mostly FFT. My current portuguese version is way bigger, up to 250 examples in the next release I'm planning for next month. These patches I'm sharing is from my newest releases. Probably it would be better then to warn users about this limit of ~12 kHz in the help-files then. Yeah, it'd be good to point out a bit of its characteristics. I learned a lot by checking on my own. I could realize how [bp~] is quite similar to the resonant lowpass from [lores~] for example. Its just a matter of setting up the gain. If you set [bp~]'s Q to 1, you'll also see how it behaves much like a lowpass filter like [lop~]. The [vcf~] filter has similar characteristics. cheers 2015-01-30 0:19 GMT-02:00 Gilberto Agostinho gilbertohasn...@googlemail.com: Hi Alexandre, thanks for your reply. On 30/01/15 02:39, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: it's how the filters were designed, they're not perfect throughout the spectrum Probably it would be better then to warn users about this limit of ~12 kHz in the help-files then. you'll need to use/build other filters for that purpose of working with that higher portion of the spectrum (in which I can hardly still hear, by the way)/ Hmm, I can clearly hear the difference between feeding a high frequency to [vcf~] and to [bp~] using a large enough Q (~100 for instance). With that Q, try sweeping from 12kHz until 14kHz in both filters, and you'll hear that [vcf~] behaves as expected, while [bp~] does not change the frequency but only affects the amplitude of the output for some reason. a few of patches of mine that describe the behaviour of vanilla and some extended filters Thanks a lot for the patches, but I am actually aware of [vcf~] and [biquad~]. This message of mine was intended to be a bug report rather than a cry for help as I have no particular problem with filters needing a solution right now. But in any case I will check your patches, as I know (and enjoy very much) yours Computer Music With Examples In Pd. Take care, Gilberto Agostinho ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list #N canvas 15 132 643 583 10; #X obj 128 67 osc~ 440; #X floatatom 128 41 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X msg 100 12 100; #X msg 128 12 1000; #X msg 166 12 1; #X msg 211 12 15000; #X obj 61 505 env~ 8192; #X floatatom 61 535 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X msg 530 211 \; pd dsp 1; #X msg 530 250 \; pd dsp 0; #X obj 480 101 hip~; #X obj 481 499 env~ 8192; #X floatatom 481 532 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 49 97 cnv 15 320 400 empty empty empty 20 12 0 14 -233017 -66577 0; #X obj 61 148 rzero~ 1; #X floatatom 231 446 8 0 0 0 - - -; #X floatatom 128 445 8 0 0 0 - - -; #X text 125 459 normalisation; #X obj 128 302 cos; #X obj 128 274 t f f; #X obj 155 302 sin; #X obj 128 331 /; #X obj 231 392 - 1; #X obj 258 392 + 1; #X obj 231 365 t f f; #X obj 231 423 /; #X obj 155 393 + 1; #X obj 128 365 t f f; #X obj 128 417 /; #X floatatom 317 348 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 128 200 atan; #X msg 128 173 1; #X obj 128 250 /; #X obj 128 148 t b f; #X obj 128 224 * 4; #X obj 61 434 *~ 0; #X floatatom 175 241 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X text 211 238 pi; #X text 157 220 normalized frequency / 2 (radians); #X obj 60 465 rpole~; #X text 196 148 adapted from [iemlib/hp1~]; #X text 228 462 feedback coefficient; #N canvas 334 409 336 219 freqtosamps 0; #X obj 24 27 inlet; #X obj 24 172 outlet; #X obj 24 90 samplerate~; #X obj 24 122 /; #X obj 24 59 t b f; #X floatatom 64 139 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X connect 0 0 4 0; #X connect 2 0 3 0; #X connect 3 0 1 0; #X connect 3 0 5 0; #X connect 4 0 2 0; #X connect 4 1 3 1; #X restore 128 114 pd freqtosamps; #X text 452 65 Katja Vetter Jan. 2015; #X text 267 12 This patch compares [hip~] with the hipass filter recipe in [iemlib/hp1~]. The iemlib recipe gives -3 dB consistently at cutoff frequency \, whereas [hip~] in Pd vanilla/extended does not \, at the moment.; #X connect 0 0 10 0; #X connect 0 0 14 0; #X connect 1 0 0 0; #X connect 1 0 10 1; #X connect 1 0 42 0; #X connect 2 0 1 0; #X connect 3 0 1 0; #X connect 4 0 1 0; #X connect 5 0 1 0; #X connect 6 0 7 0;
Re: [PD] bugs with [hip~] and [bp~]
and here's hip with raw filters 2015-01-30 20:09 GMT-02:00 Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com: that seems quite nicer than [hip~], cool. I rewrote it to make it more concise with expr. cheers 2015-01-30 19:29 GMT-02:00 katja katjavet...@gmail.com: Attached patch illustrates how [iemlib/hp1~] is calculated. This gives a perfect hipass, [hip~] could (or should) be done the same way I guess. Katja On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 6:21 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com wrote: This message of mine was intended to be a bug report I see, but my point is that it's not much of a bug, so if you want to see how these filters work more deeply, you may check my stuff. You can see how I made versions of the filters as [fexpr~] or [biquad~] and the raw filters. I made [vcf~] out of [cpole~], for example. And you can check the plot of magnitude/phase. I know (and enjoy very much) yours Computer Music With Examples In Pd. Thanks. That got old though... I translated from portuguese what I had for a workshop at the last pd convention in 2011, but it's mostly FFT. My current portuguese version is way bigger, up to 250 examples in the next release I'm planning for next month. These patches I'm sharing is from my newest releases. Probably it would be better then to warn users about this limit of ~12 kHz in the help-files then. Yeah, it'd be good to point out a bit of its characteristics. I learned a lot by checking on my own. I could realize how [bp~] is quite similar to the resonant lowpass from [lores~] for example. Its just a matter of setting up the gain. If you set [bp~]'s Q to 1, you'll also see how it behaves much like a lowpass filter like [lop~]. The [vcf~] filter has similar characteristics. cheers 2015-01-30 0:19 GMT-02:00 Gilberto Agostinho gilbertohasn...@googlemail.com: Hi Alexandre, thanks for your reply. On 30/01/15 02:39, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: it's how the filters were designed, they're not perfect throughout the spectrum Probably it would be better then to warn users about this limit of ~12 kHz in the help-files then. you'll need to use/build other filters for that purpose of working with that higher portion of the spectrum (in which I can hardly still hear, by the way)/ Hmm, I can clearly hear the difference between feeding a high frequency to [vcf~] and to [bp~] using a large enough Q (~100 for instance). With that Q, try sweeping from 12kHz until 14kHz in both filters, and you'll hear that [vcf~] behaves as expected, while [bp~] does not change the frequency but only affects the amplitude of the output for some reason. a few of patches of mine that describe the behaviour of vanilla and some extended filters Thanks a lot for the patches, but I am actually aware of [vcf~] and [biquad~]. This message of mine was intended to be a bug report rather than a cry for help as I have no particular problem with filters needing a solution right now. But in any case I will check your patches, as I know (and enjoy very much) yours Computer Music With Examples In Pd. Take care, Gilberto Agostinho ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list hip.pd Description: Binary data ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] bugs with [hip~] and [bp~]
that seems quite nicer than [hip~], cool. I rewrote it to make it more concise with expr. cheers 2015-01-30 19:29 GMT-02:00 katja katjavet...@gmail.com: Attached patch illustrates how [iemlib/hp1~] is calculated. This gives a perfect hipass, [hip~] could (or should) be done the same way I guess. Katja On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 6:21 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com wrote: This message of mine was intended to be a bug report I see, but my point is that it's not much of a bug, so if you want to see how these filters work more deeply, you may check my stuff. You can see how I made versions of the filters as [fexpr~] or [biquad~] and the raw filters. I made [vcf~] out of [cpole~], for example. And you can check the plot of magnitude/phase. I know (and enjoy very much) yours Computer Music With Examples In Pd. Thanks. That got old though... I translated from portuguese what I had for a workshop at the last pd convention in 2011, but it's mostly FFT. My current portuguese version is way bigger, up to 250 examples in the next release I'm planning for next month. These patches I'm sharing is from my newest releases. Probably it would be better then to warn users about this limit of ~12 kHz in the help-files then. Yeah, it'd be good to point out a bit of its characteristics. I learned a lot by checking on my own. I could realize how [bp~] is quite similar to the resonant lowpass from [lores~] for example. Its just a matter of setting up the gain. If you set [bp~]'s Q to 1, you'll also see how it behaves much like a lowpass filter like [lop~]. The [vcf~] filter has similar characteristics. cheers 2015-01-30 0:19 GMT-02:00 Gilberto Agostinho gilbertohasn...@googlemail.com: Hi Alexandre, thanks for your reply. On 30/01/15 02:39, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: it's how the filters were designed, they're not perfect throughout the spectrum Probably it would be better then to warn users about this limit of ~12 kHz in the help-files then. you'll need to use/build other filters for that purpose of working with that higher portion of the spectrum (in which I can hardly still hear, by the way)/ Hmm, I can clearly hear the difference between feeding a high frequency to [vcf~] and to [bp~] using a large enough Q (~100 for instance). With that Q, try sweeping from 12kHz until 14kHz in both filters, and you'll hear that [vcf~] behaves as expected, while [bp~] does not change the frequency but only affects the amplitude of the output for some reason. a few of patches of mine that describe the behaviour of vanilla and some extended filters Thanks a lot for the patches, but I am actually aware of [vcf~] and [biquad~]. This message of mine was intended to be a bug report rather than a cry for help as I have no particular problem with filters needing a solution right now. But in any case I will check your patches, as I know (and enjoy very much) yours Computer Music With Examples In Pd. Take care, Gilberto Agostinho ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list hip~-bug-2.pd Description: Binary data ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] bugs with [hip~] and [bp~]
Hello all, An user reported a bug in the forum about some problematic behaviours of certain filters in pd-extended 0.43.4, particularly [hip~] and [bp~]. I found this bug to be also present in pd vanilla 0.46.5. Basically, these filters do not respond to frequencies higher than approximately 12 kHz, in contrast to [vcf~] which responds to any frequency. This can be very clearly observed in the case of [bp~] using a narrow band frequency sweep. Here is a video showing the problem: http://youtu.be/A7mPhiHcmhc Here is the topic in our forum where this discussion started: http://forum.pdpatchrepo.info/topic/8967/highpass-hip-not-working-as-expected/18 Here is that user's bug report concerning pd-extended: https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/bugs/1187/ Finally, here is the patch I am using to test this (I am using [spectrogram~] (which in its turn needs [metrum] and [multiplex~], all of which are included in this compacted file): https://www.dropbox.com/s/fcwciwe8klwh5xz/filter-test.zip?dl=0 NOTE: the user that reported the bug argues that pd vanilla 0.45.4 does not produce any problems, but I firmly believe this to be a mistake of him. I tested these filters in both 0.45.4 and 0.46.5 and both produce the same behaviour. I tried to contact him to ask for further tests (he was not using my patch above for his own tests), but so far I got no reply. Also, other users confirmed this bug to be present in both vanilla and extended. Please let me know if I can be of any help with this. Best, Gilberto Agostinho ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] bugs with [hip~] and [bp~]
a few of patches of mine that describe the behaviour of vanilla and some extended filters 2015-01-29 23:39 GMT-02:00 Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com: it's how the filters were designed, they're not perfect throughout the spectrum you'll need to use/build other filters for that purpose of working with that higher portion of the spectrum (in which I can hardly still hear, by the way)/ cheers 2015-01-29 20:28 GMT-02:00 Gilberto Agostinho gilbertohasn...@googlemail.com: Hello all, An user reported a bug in the forum about some problematic behaviours of certain filters in pd-extended 0.43.4, particularly [hip~] and [bp~]. I found this bug to be also present in pd vanilla 0.46.5. Basically, these filters do not respond to frequencies higher than approximately 12 kHz, in contrast to [vcf~] which responds to any frequency. This can be very clearly observed in the case of [bp~] using a narrow band frequency sweep. Here is a video showing the problem: http://youtu.be/A7mPhiHcmhc Here is the topic in our forum where this discussion started: http://forum.pdpatchrepo.info/topic/8967/highpass-hip-not- working-as-expected/18 Here is that user's bug report concerning pd-extended: https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/bugs/1187/ Finally, here is the patch I am using to test this (I am using [spectrogram~] (which in its turn needs [metrum] and [multiplex~], all of which are included in this compacted file): https://www.dropbox.com/s/ fcwciwe8klwh5xz/filter-test.zip?dl=0 NOTE: the user that reported the bug argues that pd vanilla 0.45.4 does not produce any problems, but I firmly believe this to be a mistake of him. I tested these filters in both 0.45.4 and 0.46.5 and both produce the same behaviour. I tried to contact him to ask for further tests (he was not using my patch above for his own tests), but so far I got no reply. Also, other users confirmed this bug to be present in both vanilla and extended. Please let me know if I can be of any help with this. Best, Gilberto Agostinho ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list 5.[vcf~]Passa.Banda.pd Description: Binary data 5.[vcf~].pd Description: Binary data 8.[biquad~].pd Description: Binary data ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] bugs with [hip~] and [bp~]
Hi Alexandre, thanks for your reply. On 30/01/15 02:39, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: it's how the filters were designed, they're not perfect throughout the spectrum Probably it would be better then to warn users about this limit of ~12 kHz in the help-files then. you'll need to use/build other filters for that purpose of working with that higher portion of the spectrum (in which I can hardly still hear, by the way)/ Hmm, I can clearly hear the difference between feeding a high frequency to [vcf~] and to [bp~] using a large enough Q (~100 for instance). With that Q, try sweeping from 12kHz until 14kHz in both filters, and you'll hear that [vcf~] behaves as expected, while [bp~] does not change the frequency but only affects the amplitude of the output for some reason. a few of patches of mine that describe the behaviour of vanilla and some extended filters Thanks a lot for the patches, but I am actually aware of [vcf~] and [biquad~]. This message of mine was intended to be a bug report rather than a cry for help as I have no particular problem with filters needing a solution right now. But in any case I will check your patches, as I know (and enjoy very much) yours /Computer Music With Examples In Pd/. Take care, Gilberto Agostinho ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
