Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
Le 18/10/2016 à 00:47, katja a écrit : The filter recipe that Christof pointed to was easy to plug into the C code of [hip~] and works perfectly. But when looking further in d_filter.c I came across an approximation function 'sigbp_qcos()' used in the bandpass filter. It made me realize once more how passionate Miller is about efficiency. I'm not going to make a fool of myself by submitting a 'fix' using two trig functions to calculate a filter coefficient when a simple approximation could do the job. So that is what I'm now looking into, with help of a math friend: an efficient polynomial approximation for (1-sin(x))/cos(x). according to libre office linear regression, for x between 0 and Pi, (1-sin(x))/cos(x) is about : -0.057255x³ + 0.27018x² - 0.9157x + 0.99344 the calc is in attachment, if you want to tune the input source or precision. cheers c Katja On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 4:59 PM, katja wrote: Thanks for your pointers Christof. The recipe you mention from arpchord.com is different than iemlib's, but yields identical normalization and feedback coefficients, thus the same beautiful response. As you say, what's in the textbooks is common knowledge and can be used by everyone. Now I'll try to get the same result in C. By the way, [iemlib/hp~] seems to recalculate coefficients for every dsp vector which explains the higher CPU load. Katja On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Christof Ressi wrote: If iemlib's license allows to use the recipe in BSD IMHO, the correct formular for the cutoff frequency below (which I guess is also used in [hp1~] since the frequency response is the same) is 'common knowledge', so I don't think you'd have to pay attention to any licence. Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 13:52 Uhr Von: "Christof Ressi" An: katja , "Miller Puckette" Cc: pd-list Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? But coefficients aren't recalculated so often, therefore this difference will be negligible. That's a good point. You're right that both involve a feedback and feedforward, so I'm wondering why [hp1~] needs more CPU... otherwise, iemlib's filters are very efficient. Anyway, I researched a bit and found the reason why the frequency response of Pd filters seems 'wrong': Miller uses a formular for calculating the cutoff frequency which is taken from analog filters but is not really adequate for digital filters since it doesn't reflect the cyclic nature of the digital domain (although you can see it in some articles on digital filters). Let's take [hip~] as an example: the formular for a 1-pole 1-zero highpass goes: y[n] = (x[n] - x[n-1]) * (1 + k) / 2 + k * y[n-1] Miller calculates the position of the pole with k = 1 - (fc * 2*pi / SR). The correct formular, however (if you want the frequency response to be zero at Nyquist!), would be k = (1-sin(a))/cos(a), where a = fc * 2*pi / SR. You can find it here: http://www.arpchord.com/pdf/coeffs_first_order_filters_0p1.pdf BTW, the reason why [hip~] seems to get stuck at 7018 Hz is because Miller clips the coefficient below 0, so it never reaches -1 (where the gain would be all zero). Also, there is another approximation with a similiar behaviour, which goes like this: k = e^(-2*pi*fc/SR). I could find it here: http://www.dspguide.com/ch19/2.htm Here, the pole can only move from 1 to 0 and doesn't ever reach -1 as well. Now, is the behaviour of [hip~] 'wrong'? If you define at 1-pole 1-zero high pass filter as something which passes everything at fc = DC and blocks everything at fc = Nyquist, then I'd say yes. If it should roughly model an analogue filter (where the cutoff frequency can go up to infinity) for low cutoff frequencies only, then I'd say no. Also, as I tried to point out, this issue with the cutoff frequency is true for all Pd filters! So I think this behaviour should either be changed (great, if Katja is willing to submit a patch!) or documented in the help patch (gain is not 0 at Nyquist!). I'm not an engineer or any expert on filter design. It's just my two cents :-) Christof Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 11:39 Uhr Von: katja An: "Christof Ressi" Cc: pd-list Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? I'm pretty confident [hip~] would not loose its efficiency when using iemlib's recipe. Both hi pass filters have a feed forward and feedback component, with coefficients for normalization and feedback. Calculation of these coefficients is a bit more involved with iemlib's recipe, using trig functions. But coefficients aren't recalculated so often, therefore this difference will be negligible. To reassure, it is not my intention to spark another 'what's wrong with pd' thread. If
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
Cool, thank you. On 10/17/2016 12:36 PM, cyrille henry wrote: It was updated for 0.44, so it's not a correction of the bug Katja pointed (in the 0.47) The updated is describe in hip~ help file as follow : COMPATIBILITY NOTE: in Pd versions before 0.44, the high-frequency output gain was incorrectly greater than one (usually only slightly so, but noticeably if the cutoff frequency was more than 1/4 the Nyquist frequency). This problem was fixed INCORECTLY in pd 0.44-0 thoguh 0.44-2, and is now hopefully fixed since Pd 0.44-3. To get the old (0.43 and earlier) behavior, set "compatibility" to 0.43 in Pd's command line or by a message: I think more information can be found in this mailing list archive. I just wanted to point that this filter can be update while keeping compatibility with old patch (since it already have been done few years ago). cheers c Le 17/10/2016 à 18:06, Ivica Ico Bukvic a écrit : On 10/17/2016 8:47 AM, cyrille henry wrote: they have been recently updated (0.44). Many patchs rely on the old sound they deliver, this is achieved via the compatibility flag. (see help file). Updated as in fixed the bugs pointed out here or if not, what was updated in them? Best, Ico ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
The filter recipe that Christof pointed to was easy to plug into the C code of [hip~] and works perfectly. But when looking further in d_filter.c I came across an approximation function 'sigbp_qcos()' used in the bandpass filter. It made me realize once more how passionate Miller is about efficiency. I'm not going to make a fool of myself by submitting a 'fix' using two trig functions to calculate a filter coefficient when a simple approximation could do the job. So that is what I'm now looking into, with help of a math friend: an efficient polynomial approximation for (1-sin(x))/cos(x). Katja On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 4:59 PM, katja wrote: > Thanks for your pointers Christof. The recipe you mention from > arpchord.com is different than iemlib's, but yields identical > normalization and feedback coefficients, thus the same beautiful > response. As you say, what's in the textbooks is common knowledge and > can be used by everyone. Now I'll try to get the same result in C. > > By the way, [iemlib/hp~] seems to recalculate coefficients for every > dsp vector which explains the higher CPU load. > > Katja > > On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Christof Ressi wrote: >>> If iemlib's license allows to use the recipe in BSD >> >> IMHO, the correct formular for the cutoff frequency below (which I guess is >> also used in [hp1~] since the frequency response is the same) is 'common >> knowledge', so I don't think you'd have to pay attention to any licence. >> >> >>> Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 13:52 Uhr >>> Von: "Christof Ressi" >>> An: katja , "Miller Puckette" >>> Cc: pd-list >>> Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? >>> >>> > But coefficients aren't recalculated so >>> > often, therefore this difference will be negligible. >>> >>> That's a good point. You're right that both involve a feedback and >>> feedforward, so I'm wondering why [hp1~] needs more CPU... otherwise, >>> iemlib's filters are very efficient. >>> >>> Anyway, I researched a bit and found the reason why the frequency response >>> of Pd filters seems 'wrong': >>> >>> Miller uses a formular for calculating the cutoff frequency which is taken >>> from analog filters but is not really adequate for digital filters since it >>> doesn't reflect the cyclic nature of the digital domain (although you can >>> see it in some articles on digital filters). >>> >>> Let's take [hip~] as an example: >>> >>> the formular for a 1-pole 1-zero highpass goes: >>> y[n] = (x[n] - x[n-1]) * (1 + k) / 2 + k * y[n-1] >>> >>> Miller calculates the position of the pole with >>> k = 1 - (fc * 2*pi / SR). >>> >>> The correct formular, however (if you want the frequency response to be >>> zero at Nyquist!), would be >>> k = (1-sin(a))/cos(a), where a = fc * 2*pi / SR. >>> >>> You can find it here: >>> http://www.arpchord.com/pdf/coeffs_first_order_filters_0p1.pdf >>> >>> BTW, the reason why [hip~] seems to get stuck at 7018 Hz is because Miller >>> clips the coefficient below 0, so it never reaches -1 (where the gain would >>> be all zero). >>> >>> Also, there is another approximation with a similiar behaviour, which goes >>> like this: >>> k = e^(-2*pi*fc/SR). I could find it here: >>> http://www.dspguide.com/ch19/2.htm >>> Here, the pole can only move from 1 to 0 and doesn't ever reach -1 as well. >>> >>> Now, is the behaviour of [hip~] 'wrong'? >>> If you define at 1-pole 1-zero high pass filter as something which passes >>> everything at fc = DC and blocks everything at fc = Nyquist, then I'd say >>> yes. >>> If it should roughly model an analogue filter (where the cutoff frequency >>> can go up to infinity) for low cutoff frequencies only, then I'd say no. >>> >>> Also, as I tried to point out, this issue with the cutoff frequency is true >>> for all Pd filters! >>> >>> So I think this behaviour should either be changed (great, if Katja is >>> willing to submit a patch!) or documented in the help patch (gain is not 0 >>> at Nyquist!). >>> >>> I'm not an engineer or any expert on filter design. It's just my two cents >>> :-) >>> >>> Christof >>> >>> >>> >
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
It was updated for 0.44, so it's not a correction of the bug Katja pointed (in the 0.47) The updated is describe in hip~ help file as follow : COMPATIBILITY NOTE: in Pd versions before 0.44, the high-frequency output gain was incorrectly greater than one (usually only slightly so, but noticeably if the cutoff frequency was more than 1/4 the Nyquist frequency). This problem was fixed INCORECTLY in pd 0.44-0 thoguh 0.44-2, and is now hopefully fixed since Pd 0.44-3. To get the old (0.43 and earlier) behavior, set "compatibility" to 0.43 in Pd's command line or by a message: I think more information can be found in this mailing list archive. I just wanted to point that this filter can be update while keeping compatibility with old patch (since it already have been done few years ago). cheers c Le 17/10/2016 à 18:06, Ivica Ico Bukvic a écrit : On 10/17/2016 8:47 AM, cyrille henry wrote: they have been recently updated (0.44). Many patchs rely on the old sound they deliver, this is achieved via the compatibility flag. (see help file). Updated as in fixed the bugs pointed out here or if not, what was updated in them? Best, Ico ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
On 10/17/2016 8:47 AM, cyrille henry wrote: they have been recently updated (0.44). Many patchs rely on the old sound they deliver, this is achieved via the compatibility flag. (see help file). Updated as in fixed the bugs pointed out here or if not, what was updated in them? Best, Ico ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
Le 17/10/2016 à 14:17, i go bananas a écrit : as imperfect as Vanilla's lop~ / hip~ / vcf~ objects may be...i would strongly argue against replacing them in the same namespace, as many old patches rely on the sound they deliver. they have been recently updated (0.44). Many patchs rely on the old sound they deliver, this is achieved via the compatibility flag. (see help file). cheers c ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
as imperfect as Vanilla's lop~ / hip~ / vcf~ objects may be...i would strongly argue against replacing them in the same namespace, as many old patches rely on the sound they deliver. ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
Thanks for the paper! I couldn't find [mvcf~] in the ekext deken package but there is a [lpreson~], are these somehow related? Anyway, I will compile [mvcf~] from source and listen to it :-). Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2016 um 12:49 Uhr Von: "Ed Kelly" An: "Alexandre Torres Porres" , "Christof Ressi" Cc: pd-list Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? Hey people, While I'm not an expert with digital filters, I did manage to piece together a decent-sounding ladder emulation instead of vcf~ a while ago. It only does resonant lowpass though. It's called mvcf~ and is found in the ekext externals library. I've since been reading about analogue filter design and I reckon there may be high pass and band pass filters available from the source code, with the correct adjustment to the algorithm. I'm trying to work out how to adjust the coefficients to accurately model the alternative functions (i.e. highpass, and hence bandpass through arithmetic processes) according to the resistance factors outlined in this paper. Any help would be appreciated :) So, currently, at line 78 in the code I have translations for highpass and bandpass (the current implementation is lowpass only with a gain factor) but I may be stupid in not trying this myself (or I've just been super-busy with other stuff - I'm marking this week). The idea of implementing the other two modes comes from an Electronotes paper from Bernie Hutchins in the 1970s. http://electronotes.netfirms.com/EN85VCF.PDF Take a look. Cheers, Ed PS have yet to try bob~ but it sounds interesting...will check it out. On Sunday, 16 October 2016, 13:10, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: > But [bp~] and [vcf~] are almost unusable IMHO and should probably be replaced > by better filters in the future (while keeping the old ones for compatibility > reasons). how about bob~? 2016-10-14 21:34 GMT-03:00 Christof Ressi mailto:christof.re...@gmx.at]>:There are a number of big problems with all build-in filters in Pd (expect for the raw filters). Problem number 1: [lop~] and [hip~] both use a weird (you could also say: wrong) formula for the cutoff frequency which makes them gradually converge to a fixed output state (reached by about 7000 Hz). The same is true for [vcf~] and [bp~] with Q <= 1. Therefore the actual cutoff frequency is only correct for very low frequencies and approximately gets more and more off until it doesn't move at all. Problem number 2: [bp~] and [vcf~] don't have zeros at DC and Nyquist. For low Q values, the slope is different for each side and changes with frequency. Problem number 3: the gain at the center frequency is not 1 for both [bp~] and [vcf~]. It rather depends on frequency and Q. [bp~] even has has a gain of 2 for Q <= 1! I did some FFT plots, see the attachment. I remember Miller saying somewhere that these filters are not designed for high cutoff frequencies - but even for low frequencies, the behaviour of [bp~] and [vcf~] is horrible. I can see these filters are mere approximations to reduce CPU usage. [hip~] is indeed much more efficient than iemlib's [hp1~], so it's well suited for DC removal (but not much else). [bp~] only is a little bit more CPU friendly than iemlib's [bp2~] - but the latter one has a correct and stable frequency response. [vcf~], however, is a real CPU sucker!!! 100 [vcf~] objects need 3,40% on my laptop whereas 100 of iemlib's [vcf_bp2~] only need 1,80%! But you have to consider that [vcf_bp2~] not only acts correctly but lets you set the Q at audio rate. The high CPU usage of [vcf~] seems like a bug to me... I only use the vanilla filters for the most basic stuff like DC removal and smoothing. I guess these are the use cases which Miller had in mind and that way [lop~] and [hip~] have their justification (although there should be some more warning about the 'wrong' frequency response in the help file). But [bp~] and [vcf~] are almost unusable IMHO and should probably be replaced by better filters in the future (while keeping the old ones for compatibility reasons). Christof > Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2016 um 23:51 Uhr > Von: katja mailto:katjavet...@gmail.com]> > An: pd-list mailto:pd-l...@iem.at]> > Betreff: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? > > In pd 0.47.1 [hip~] is still not perfect. Attenuation at cutoff is not > constant over the frequency range: -6 dB with cutoff=SR/8, -3 dB with > cutoff=SR/4, 0 DB with cutoff=SR/2. In contrast, iemlib's [hp1~] has > -3 dB at cutoff consistently. > > Could vanilla pd implement iemlib's hipass filter recipe? I don't know > if the license also covers the math. Documentation in > https://git.iem.at/pd/iemlib/ > tree/master[https://git.ie
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
Hey people, While I'm not an expert with digital filters, I did manage to piece together a decent-sounding ladder emulation instead of vcf~ a while ago. It only does resonant lowpass though. It's called mvcf~ and is found in the ekext externals library. I've since been reading about analogue filter design and I reckon there may be high pass and band pass filters available from the source code, with the correct adjustment to the algorithm. I'm trying to work out how to adjust the coefficients to accurately model the alternative functions (i.e. highpass, and hence bandpass through arithmetic processes) according to the resistance factors outlined in this paper. Any help would be appreciated :) So, currently, at line 78 in the code I have translations for highpass and bandpass (the current implementation is lowpass only with a gain factor) but I may be stupid in not trying this myself (or I've just been super-busy with other stuff - I'm marking this week). The idea of implementing the other two modes comes from an Electronotes paper from Bernie Hutchins in the 1970s. http://electronotes.netfirms.com/EN85VCF.PDF Take a look.Cheers,Ed PS have yet to try bob~ but it sounds interesting...will check it out. On Sunday, 16 October 2016, 13:10, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: > But [bp~] and [vcf~] are almost unusable IMHO and should probably be >replaced> by better filters in the future (while keeping the old ones for >compatibility reasons). how about bob~? 2016-10-14 21:34 GMT-03:00 Christof Ressi : There are a number of big problems with all build-in filters in Pd (expect for the raw filters). Problem number 1: [lop~] and [hip~] both use a weird (you could also say: wrong) formula for the cutoff frequency which makes them gradually converge to a fixed output state (reached by about 7000 Hz). The same is true for [vcf~] and [bp~] with Q <= 1. Therefore the actual cutoff frequency is only correct for very low frequencies and approximately gets more and more off until it doesn't move at all. Problem number 2: [bp~] and [vcf~] don't have zeros at DC and Nyquist. For low Q values, the slope is different for each side and changes with frequency. Problem number 3: the gain at the center frequency is not 1 for both [bp~] and [vcf~]. It rather depends on frequency and Q. [bp~] even has has a gain of 2 for Q <= 1! I did some FFT plots, see the attachment. I remember Miller saying somewhere that these filters are not designed for high cutoff frequencies - but even for low frequencies, the behaviour of [bp~] and [vcf~] is horrible. I can see these filters are mere approximations to reduce CPU usage. [hip~] is indeed much more efficient than iemlib's [hp1~], so it's well suited for DC removal (but not much else). [bp~] only is a little bit more CPU friendly than iemlib's [bp2~] - but the latter one has a correct and stable frequency response. [vcf~], however, is a real CPU sucker!!! 100 [vcf~] objects need 3,40% on my laptop whereas 100 of iemlib's [vcf_bp2~] only need 1,80%! But you have to consider that [vcf_bp2~] not only acts correctly but lets you set the Q at audio rate. The high CPU usage of [vcf~] seems like a bug to me... I only use the vanilla filters for the most basic stuff like DC removal and smoothing. I guess these are the use cases which Miller had in mind and that way [lop~] and [hip~] have their justification (although there should be some more warning about the 'wrong' frequency response in the help file). But [bp~] and [vcf~] are almost unusable IMHO and should probably be replaced by better filters in the future (while keeping the old ones for compatibility reasons). Christof > Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2016 um 23:51 Uhr > Von: katja > An: pd-list > Betreff: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? > > In pd 0.47.1 [hip~] is still not perfect. Attenuation at cutoff is not > constant over the frequency range: -6 dB with cutoff=SR/8, -3 dB with > cutoff=SR/4, 0 DB with cutoff=SR/2. In contrast, iemlib's [hp1~] has > -3 dB at cutoff consistently. > > Could vanilla pd implement iemlib's hipass filter recipe? I don't know > if the license also covers the math. Documentation in > https://git.iem.at/pd/iemlib/ tree/master points to external literature > for part of the math (bilinear transform). I've implemented the recipe > with vanilla objects for comparison, see attached. > > Katja > __ _ > Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/ > listinfo/pd-list > __ _ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list /* * moog vcf, 4-pole lo
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
> well, it's got 2 (different) outputs, so it's like 2 filters in there [vcf~] is one filter, it just outputs both the real and imaginary part (which have to be computed anyway), so the idea is you get two filters for the price of one. I have no idea what causes the relatively high CPU load. maybe the tabfudge stuff? > how about bob~? [bob~] is cool, but it's a bit expensive. Moreover, it's not a bandpass ;-) Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Oktober 2016 um 13:39 Uhr Von: "Alexandre Torres Porres" An: "Christof Ressi" Cc: katja , pd-list Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? > But [bp~] and [vcf~] are almost unusable IMHO and should probably be replaced > by better filters in the future (while keeping the old ones for compatibility > reasons). how about bob~? 2016-10-14 21:34 GMT-03:00 Christof Ressi mailto:christof.re...@gmx.at]>:There are a number of big problems with all build-in filters in Pd (expect for the raw filters). Problem number 1: [lop~] and [hip~] both use a weird (you could also say: wrong) formula for the cutoff frequency which makes them gradually converge to a fixed output state (reached by about 7000 Hz). The same is true for [vcf~] and [bp~] with Q <= 1. Therefore the actual cutoff frequency is only correct for very low frequencies and approximately gets more and more off until it doesn't move at all. Problem number 2: [bp~] and [vcf~] don't have zeros at DC and Nyquist. For low Q values, the slope is different for each side and changes with frequency. Problem number 3: the gain at the center frequency is not 1 for both [bp~] and [vcf~]. It rather depends on frequency and Q. [bp~] even has has a gain of 2 for Q <= 1! I did some FFT plots, see the attachment. I remember Miller saying somewhere that these filters are not designed for high cutoff frequencies - but even for low frequencies, the behaviour of [bp~] and [vcf~] is horrible. I can see these filters are mere approximations to reduce CPU usage. [hip~] is indeed much more efficient than iemlib's [hp1~], so it's well suited for DC removal (but not much else). [bp~] only is a little bit more CPU friendly than iemlib's [bp2~] - but the latter one has a correct and stable frequency response. [vcf~], however, is a real CPU sucker!!! 100 [vcf~] objects need 3,40% on my laptop whereas 100 of iemlib's [vcf_bp2~] only need 1,80%! But you have to consider that [vcf_bp2~] not only acts correctly but lets you set the Q at audio rate. The high CPU usage of [vcf~] seems like a bug to me... I only use the vanilla filters for the most basic stuff like DC removal and smoothing. I guess these are the use cases which Miller had in mind and that way [lop~] and [hip~] have their justification (although there should be some more warning about the 'wrong' frequency response in the help file). But [bp~] and [vcf~] are almost unusable IMHO and should probably be replaced by better filters in the future (while keeping the old ones for compatibility reasons). Christof > Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2016 um 23:51 Uhr > Von: katja mailto:katjavet...@gmail.com]> > An: pd-list mailto:pd-l...@iem.at]> > Betreff: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? > > In pd 0.47.1 [hip~] is still not perfect. Attenuation at cutoff is not > constant over the frequency range: -6 dB with cutoff=SR/8, -3 dB with > cutoff=SR/4, 0 DB with cutoff=SR/2. In contrast, iemlib's [hp1~] has > -3 dB at cutoff consistently. > > Could vanilla pd implement iemlib's hipass filter recipe? I don't know > if the license also covers the math. Documentation in > https://git.iem.at/pd/iemlib/tree/master[https://git.iem.at/pd/iemlib/tree/master] > points to external literature > for part of the math (bilinear transform). I've implemented the recipe > with vanilla objects for comparison, see attached. > > Katja> ___ > Pd-list@lists.iem.at[mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at] mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list[https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list] > ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at[mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at] mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list[https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list] ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
> But [bp~] and [vcf~] are almost unusable IMHO and should probably be replaced > by better filters in the future (while keeping the old ones for compatibility reasons). how about bob~? 2016-10-14 21:34 GMT-03:00 Christof Ressi : > There are a number of big problems with all build-in filters in Pd (expect > for the raw filters). > > Problem number 1: > [lop~] and [hip~] both use a weird (you could also say: wrong) formula for > the cutoff frequency which makes them gradually converge to a fixed output > state (reached by about 7000 Hz). The same is true for [vcf~] and [bp~] > with Q <= 1. Therefore the actual cutoff frequency is only correct for very > low frequencies and approximately gets more and more off until it doesn't > move at all. > > Problem number 2: > [bp~] and [vcf~] don't have zeros at DC and Nyquist. For low Q values, the > slope is different for each side and changes with frequency. > > Problem number 3: > the gain at the center frequency is not 1 for both [bp~] and [vcf~]. It > rather depends on frequency and Q. [bp~] even has has a gain of 2 for Q <= > 1! > > I did some FFT plots, see the attachment. > > I remember Miller saying somewhere that these filters are not designed for > high cutoff frequencies - but even for low frequencies, the behaviour of > [bp~] and [vcf~] is horrible. I can see these filters are mere > approximations to reduce CPU usage. > [hip~] is indeed much more efficient than iemlib's [hp1~], so it's well > suited for DC removal (but not much else). > [bp~] only is a little bit more CPU friendly than iemlib's [bp2~] - but > the latter one has a correct and stable frequency response. > [vcf~], however, is a real CPU sucker!!! 100 [vcf~] objects need 3,40% on > my laptop whereas 100 of iemlib's [vcf_bp2~] only need 1,80%! But you have > to consider that [vcf_bp2~] not only acts correctly but lets you set the Q > at audio rate. The high CPU usage of [vcf~] seems like a bug to me... > > I only use the vanilla filters for the most basic stuff like DC removal > and smoothing. I guess these are the use cases which Miller had in mind and > that way [lop~] and [hip~] have their justification (although there should > be some more warning about the 'wrong' frequency response in the help file). > But [bp~] and [vcf~] are almost unusable IMHO and should probably be > replaced by better filters in the future (while keeping the old ones for > compatibility reasons). > > Christof > > > > Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2016 um 23:51 Uhr > > Von: katja > > An: pd-list > > Betreff: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? > > > > In pd 0.47.1 [hip~] is still not perfect. Attenuation at cutoff is not > > constant over the frequency range: -6 dB with cutoff=SR/8, -3 dB with > > cutoff=SR/4, 0 DB with cutoff=SR/2. In contrast, iemlib's [hp1~] has > > -3 dB at cutoff consistently. > > > > Could vanilla pd implement iemlib's hipass filter recipe? I don't know > > if the license also covers the math. Documentation in > > https://git.iem.at/pd/iemlib/tree/master points to external literature > > for part of the math (bilinear transform). I've implemented the recipe > > with vanilla objects for comparison, see attached. > > > > Katja > > ___ > > Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/ > listinfo/pd-list > > > ___ > Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/ > listinfo/pd-list > > ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
> The high CPU usage of [vcf~] seems like a bug to me... well, it's got 2 (different) outputs, so it's like 2 filters in there, hence twice the CPU consumption maybe? I dont know vcf~ from iemlib... 2016-10-14 21:34 GMT-03:00 Christof Ressi : > There are a number of big problems with all build-in filters in Pd (expect > for the raw filters). > > Problem number 1: > [lop~] and [hip~] both use a weird (you could also say: wrong) formula for > the cutoff frequency which makes them gradually converge to a fixed output > state (reached by about 7000 Hz). The same is true for [vcf~] and [bp~] > with Q <= 1. Therefore the actual cutoff frequency is only correct for very > low frequencies and approximately gets more and more off until it doesn't > move at all. > > Problem number 2: > [bp~] and [vcf~] don't have zeros at DC and Nyquist. For low Q values, the > slope is different for each side and changes with frequency. > > Problem number 3: > the gain at the center frequency is not 1 for both [bp~] and [vcf~]. It > rather depends on frequency and Q. [bp~] even has has a gain of 2 for Q <= > 1! > > I did some FFT plots, see the attachment. > > I remember Miller saying somewhere that these filters are not designed for > high cutoff frequencies - but even for low frequencies, the behaviour of > [bp~] and [vcf~] is horrible. I can see these filters are mere > approximations to reduce CPU usage. > [hip~] is indeed much more efficient than iemlib's [hp1~], so it's well > suited for DC removal (but not much else). > [bp~] only is a little bit more CPU friendly than iemlib's [bp2~] - but > the latter one has a correct and stable frequency response. > [vcf~], however, is a real CPU sucker!!! 100 [vcf~] objects need 3,40% on > my laptop whereas 100 of iemlib's [vcf_bp2~] only need 1,80%! But you have > to consider that [vcf_bp2~] not only acts correctly but lets you set the Q > at audio rate. The high CPU usage of [vcf~] seems like a bug to me... > > I only use the vanilla filters for the most basic stuff like DC removal > and smoothing. I guess these are the use cases which Miller had in mind and > that way [lop~] and [hip~] have their justification (although there should > be some more warning about the 'wrong' frequency response in the help file). > But [bp~] and [vcf~] are almost unusable IMHO and should probably be > replaced by better filters in the future (while keeping the old ones for > compatibility reasons). > > Christof > > > > Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2016 um 23:51 Uhr > > Von: katja > > An: pd-list > > Betreff: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? > > > > In pd 0.47.1 [hip~] is still not perfect. Attenuation at cutoff is not > > constant over the frequency range: -6 dB with cutoff=SR/8, -3 dB with > > cutoff=SR/4, 0 DB with cutoff=SR/2. In contrast, iemlib's [hp1~] has > > -3 dB at cutoff consistently. > > > > Could vanilla pd implement iemlib's hipass filter recipe? I don't know > > if the license also covers the math. Documentation in > > https://git.iem.at/pd/iemlib/tree/master points to external literature > > for part of the math (bilinear transform). I've implemented the recipe > > with vanilla objects for comparison, see attached. > > > > Katja > > ___ > > Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/ > listinfo/pd-list > > > ___ > Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/ > listinfo/pd-list > > ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
PS - I normally use cyclone/svf~ in my objects, but there is a good argument for a decent state-variable filter included in vanilla I think.Ed On Sunday, 16 October 2016, 4:52, Ed Kelly wrote: Hey people, While I'm not an expert with digital filters, I did manage to piece together a decent-sounding ladder emulation instead of vcf~ a while ago. It only does resonant lowpass though. It's called mvcf~ and is found in the ekext externals library. I've since been reading about analogue filter design and I reckon there may be high pass and band pass filters available from the source code, with the correct adjustment to the algorithm. I'm trying to work out how to adjust the coefficients to accurately model the alternative functions (i.e. highpass, and hence bandpass through arithmetic processes) according to the resistance factors outlined in this paper. Any help would be appreciated :) So, currently, at line 78 in the code I have translations for highpass and bandpass (the current implementation is lowpass only with a gain factor) but I may be stupid in not trying this myself (or I've just been super-busy with other stuff!). The idea of implementing the other two modes comes from an Electronotes paper from Bernie Hutchins in the 1970s. This doesn't seem to be free online any more, but I've enclosed it. Take a look.Cheers,Ed Lone Shark releases: Light Vessel Automatic available now on 12" vinyl.Build Your Wings on the Way Down, the new digital album available @ http://scifirecords.co.uk/releases Earthlings compilation is out now @ http://www.pyramidtransmissions.com Ninja Jamm - the revolutionary music remix app for iOS and Android: http://www.ninjajamm.com/ Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, and Metastudio 5 live composition and improvisation suite, available at http://sharktracks.co.uk/html/software.html On Saturday, 15 October 2016, 22:10, Julian Brooks wrote: And my learning for the day is done. Thanks both On 15 October 2016 at 15:59, katja wrote: Thanks for your pointers Christof. The recipe you mention from arpchord.com is different than iemlib's, but yields identical normalization and feedback coefficients, thus the same beautiful response. As you say, what's in the textbooks is common knowledge and can be used by everyone. Now I'll try to get the same result in C. By the way, [iemlib/hp~] seems to recalculate coefficients for every dsp vector which explains the higher CPU load. Katja On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Christof Ressi wrote: >> If iemlib's license allows to use the recipe in BSD > > IMHO, the correct formular for the cutoff frequency below (which I guess is > also used in [hp1~] since the frequency response is the same) is 'common > knowledge', so I don't think you'd have to pay attention to any licence. > > >> Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 13:52 Uhr >> Von: "Christof Ressi" >> An: katja , "Miller Puckette" >> Cc: pd-list >> Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? >> >> > But coefficients aren't recalculated so >> > often, therefore this difference will be negligible. >> >> That's a good point. You're right that both involve a feedback and >> feedforward, so I'm wondering why [hp1~] needs more CPU... otherwise, >> iemlib's filters are very efficient. >> >> Anyway, I researched a bit and found the reason why the frequency response >> of Pd filters seems 'wrong': >> >> Miller uses a formular for calculating the cutoff frequency which is taken >> from analog filters but is not really adequate for digital filters since it >> doesn't reflect the cyclic nature of the digital domain (although you can >> see it in some articles on digital filters). >> >> Let's take [hip~] as an example: >> >> the formular for a 1-pole 1-zero highpass goes: >> y[n] = (x[n] - x[n-1]) * (1 + k) / 2 + k * y[n-1] >> >> Miller calculates the position of the pole with >> k = 1 - (fc * 2*pi / SR). >> >> The correct formular, however (if you want the frequency response to be zero >> at Nyquist!), would be >> k = (1-sin(a))/cos(a), where a = fc * 2*pi / SR. >> >> You can find it here: http://www.arpchord.com/pdf/ >> coeffs_first_order_filters_ 0p1.pdf >> >> BTW, the reason why [hip~] seems to get stuck at 7018 Hz is because Miller >> clips the coefficient below 0, so it never reaches -1 (where the gain would >> be all zero). >> >> Also, there is another approximation with a similiar behaviour, which goes >> like this: >> k = e^(-2*pi*fc/SR). I could find it
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
And my learning for the day is done. Thanks both On 15 October 2016 at 15:59, katja wrote: > Thanks for your pointers Christof. The recipe you mention from > arpchord.com is different than iemlib's, but yields identical > normalization and feedback coefficients, thus the same beautiful > response. As you say, what's in the textbooks is common knowledge and > can be used by everyone. Now I'll try to get the same result in C. > > By the way, [iemlib/hp~] seems to recalculate coefficients for every > dsp vector which explains the higher CPU load. > > Katja > > On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Christof Ressi > wrote: > >> If iemlib's license allows to use the recipe in BSD > > > > IMHO, the correct formular for the cutoff frequency below (which I guess > is also used in [hp1~] since the frequency response is the same) is 'common > knowledge', so I don't think you'd have to pay attention to any licence. > > > > > >> Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 13:52 Uhr > >> Von: "Christof Ressi" > >> An: katja , "Miller Puckette" > >> Cc: pd-list > >> Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? > >> > >> > But coefficients aren't recalculated so > >> > often, therefore this difference will be negligible. > >> > >> That's a good point. You're right that both involve a feedback and > feedforward, so I'm wondering why [hp1~] needs more CPU... otherwise, > iemlib's filters are very efficient. > >> > >> Anyway, I researched a bit and found the reason why the frequency > response of Pd filters seems 'wrong': > >> > >> Miller uses a formular for calculating the cutoff frequency which is > taken from analog filters but is not really adequate for digital filters > since it doesn't reflect the cyclic nature of the digital domain (although > you can see it in some articles on digital filters). > >> > >> Let's take [hip~] as an example: > >> > >> the formular for a 1-pole 1-zero highpass goes: > >> y[n] = (x[n] - x[n-1]) * (1 + k) / 2 + k * y[n-1] > >> > >> Miller calculates the position of the pole with > >> k = 1 - (fc * 2*pi / SR). > >> > >> The correct formular, however (if you want the frequency response to be > zero at Nyquist!), would be > >> k = (1-sin(a))/cos(a), where a = fc * 2*pi / SR. > >> > >> You can find it here: http://www.arpchord.com/pdf/ > coeffs_first_order_filters_0p1.pdf > >> > >> BTW, the reason why [hip~] seems to get stuck at 7018 Hz is because > Miller clips the coefficient below 0, so it never reaches -1 (where the > gain would be all zero). > >> > >> Also, there is another approximation with a similiar behaviour, which > goes like this: > >> k = e^(-2*pi*fc/SR). I could find it here: > http://www.dspguide.com/ch19/2.htm > >> Here, the pole can only move from 1 to 0 and doesn't ever reach -1 as > well. > >> > >> Now, is the behaviour of [hip~] 'wrong'? > >> If you define at 1-pole 1-zero high pass filter as something which > passes everything at fc = DC and blocks everything at fc = Nyquist, then > I'd say yes. > >> If it should roughly model an analogue filter (where the cutoff > frequency can go up to infinity) for low cutoff frequencies only, then I'd > say no. > >> > >> Also, as I tried to point out, this issue with the cutoff frequency is > true for all Pd filters! > >> > >> So I think this behaviour should either be changed (great, if Katja is > willing to submit a patch!) or documented in the help patch (gain is not 0 > at Nyquist!). > >> > >> I'm not an engineer or any expert on filter design. It's just my two > cents :-) > >> > >> Christof > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 11:39 Uhr > >> > Von: katja > >> > An: "Christof Ressi" > >> > Cc: pd-list > >> > Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? > >> > > >> > I'm pretty confident [hip~] would not loose its efficiency when using > >> > iemlib's recipe. Both hi pass filters have a feed forward and feedback > >> > component, with coefficients for normalization and feedback. > >> > Calculation of these coefficients is a bit more involved with iemlib's > >>
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
Thanks for your pointers Christof. The recipe you mention from arpchord.com is different than iemlib's, but yields identical normalization and feedback coefficients, thus the same beautiful response. As you say, what's in the textbooks is common knowledge and can be used by everyone. Now I'll try to get the same result in C. By the way, [iemlib/hp~] seems to recalculate coefficients for every dsp vector which explains the higher CPU load. Katja On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Christof Ressi wrote: >> If iemlib's license allows to use the recipe in BSD > > IMHO, the correct formular for the cutoff frequency below (which I guess is > also used in [hp1~] since the frequency response is the same) is 'common > knowledge', so I don't think you'd have to pay attention to any licence. > > >> Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 13:52 Uhr >> Von: "Christof Ressi" >> An: katja , "Miller Puckette" >> Cc: pd-list >> Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? >> >> > But coefficients aren't recalculated so >> > often, therefore this difference will be negligible. >> >> That's a good point. You're right that both involve a feedback and >> feedforward, so I'm wondering why [hp1~] needs more CPU... otherwise, >> iemlib's filters are very efficient. >> >> Anyway, I researched a bit and found the reason why the frequency response >> of Pd filters seems 'wrong': >> >> Miller uses a formular for calculating the cutoff frequency which is taken >> from analog filters but is not really adequate for digital filters since it >> doesn't reflect the cyclic nature of the digital domain (although you can >> see it in some articles on digital filters). >> >> Let's take [hip~] as an example: >> >> the formular for a 1-pole 1-zero highpass goes: >> y[n] = (x[n] - x[n-1]) * (1 + k) / 2 + k * y[n-1] >> >> Miller calculates the position of the pole with >> k = 1 - (fc * 2*pi / SR). >> >> The correct formular, however (if you want the frequency response to be zero >> at Nyquist!), would be >> k = (1-sin(a))/cos(a), where a = fc * 2*pi / SR. >> >> You can find it here: >> http://www.arpchord.com/pdf/coeffs_first_order_filters_0p1.pdf >> >> BTW, the reason why [hip~] seems to get stuck at 7018 Hz is because Miller >> clips the coefficient below 0, so it never reaches -1 (where the gain would >> be all zero). >> >> Also, there is another approximation with a similiar behaviour, which goes >> like this: >> k = e^(-2*pi*fc/SR). I could find it here: http://www.dspguide.com/ch19/2.htm >> Here, the pole can only move from 1 to 0 and doesn't ever reach -1 as well. >> >> Now, is the behaviour of [hip~] 'wrong'? >> If you define at 1-pole 1-zero high pass filter as something which passes >> everything at fc = DC and blocks everything at fc = Nyquist, then I'd say >> yes. >> If it should roughly model an analogue filter (where the cutoff frequency >> can go up to infinity) for low cutoff frequencies only, then I'd say no. >> >> Also, as I tried to point out, this issue with the cutoff frequency is true >> for all Pd filters! >> >> So I think this behaviour should either be changed (great, if Katja is >> willing to submit a patch!) or documented in the help patch (gain is not 0 >> at Nyquist!). >> >> I'm not an engineer or any expert on filter design. It's just my two cents >> :-) >> >> Christof >> >> >> >> >> >> > Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 11:39 Uhr >> > Von: katja >> > An: "Christof Ressi" >> > Cc: pd-list >> > Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? >> > >> > I'm pretty confident [hip~] would not loose its efficiency when using >> > iemlib's recipe. Both hi pass filters have a feed forward and feedback >> > component, with coefficients for normalization and feedback. >> > Calculation of these coefficients is a bit more involved with iemlib's >> > recipe, using trig functions. But coefficients aren't recalculated so >> > often, therefore this difference will be negligible. >> > >> > To reassure, it is not my intention to spark another 'what's wrong >> > with pd' thread. If iemlib's license allows to use the recipe in BSD >> > code I'll try patch the C of [hip~] and s
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
Jumping in on this thread: If anyone who can tackle improvements on these filters can provide a patch for lop~, hip~, bp~ and vcf~, please copy me when submitting the patch, so that I can merge it with pd-l2ork. Thank you. Best, Ico On 10/15/2016 7:59 AM, Christof Ressi wrote: If iemlib's license allows to use the recipe in BSD IMHO, the correct formular for the cutoff frequency below (which I guess is also used in [hp1~] since the frequency response is the same) is 'common knowledge', so I don't think you'd have to pay attention to any licence. Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 13:52 Uhr Von: "Christof Ressi" An: katja , "Miller Puckette" Cc: pd-list Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? But coefficients aren't recalculated so often, therefore this difference will be negligible. That's a good point. You're right that both involve a feedback and feedforward, so I'm wondering why [hp1~] needs more CPU... otherwise, iemlib's filters are very efficient. Anyway, I researched a bit and found the reason why the frequency response of Pd filters seems 'wrong': Miller uses a formular for calculating the cutoff frequency which is taken from analog filters but is not really adequate for digital filters since it doesn't reflect the cyclic nature of the digital domain (although you can see it in some articles on digital filters). Let's take [hip~] as an example: the formular for a 1-pole 1-zero highpass goes: y[n] = (x[n] - x[n-1]) * (1 + k) / 2 + k * y[n-1] Miller calculates the position of the pole with k = 1 - (fc * 2*pi / SR). The correct formular, however (if you want the frequency response to be zero at Nyquist!), would be k = (1-sin(a))/cos(a), where a = fc * 2*pi / SR. You can find it here: http://www.arpchord.com/pdf/coeffs_first_order_filters_0p1.pdf BTW, the reason why [hip~] seems to get stuck at 7018 Hz is because Miller clips the coefficient below 0, so it never reaches -1 (where the gain would be all zero). Also, there is another approximation with a similiar behaviour, which goes like this: k = e^(-2*pi*fc/SR). I could find it here: http://www.dspguide.com/ch19/2.htm Here, the pole can only move from 1 to 0 and doesn't ever reach -1 as well. Now, is the behaviour of [hip~] 'wrong'? If you define at 1-pole 1-zero high pass filter as something which passes everything at fc = DC and blocks everything at fc = Nyquist, then I'd say yes. If it should roughly model an analogue filter (where the cutoff frequency can go up to infinity) for low cutoff frequencies only, then I'd say no. Also, as I tried to point out, this issue with the cutoff frequency is true for all Pd filters! So I think this behaviour should either be changed (great, if Katja is willing to submit a patch!) or documented in the help patch (gain is not 0 at Nyquist!). I'm not an engineer or any expert on filter design. It's just my two cents :-) Christof Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 11:39 Uhr Von: katja An: "Christof Ressi" Cc: pd-list Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? I'm pretty confident [hip~] would not loose its efficiency when using iemlib's recipe. Both hi pass filters have a feed forward and feedback component, with coefficients for normalization and feedback. Calculation of these coefficients is a bit more involved with iemlib's recipe, using trig functions. But coefficients aren't recalculated so often, therefore this difference will be negligible. To reassure, it is not my intention to spark another 'what's wrong with pd' thread. If iemlib's license allows to use the recipe in BSD code I'll try patch the C of [hip~] and submit on the tracker for review. Who knows, it may be a no-brainer. Katja On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 2:34 AM, Christof Ressi wrote: There are a number of big problems with all build-in filters in Pd (expect for the raw filters). Problem number 1: [lop~] and [hip~] both use a weird (you could also say: wrong) formula for the cutoff frequency which makes them gradually converge to a fixed output state (reached by about 7000 Hz). The same is true for [vcf~] and [bp~] with Q <= 1. Therefore the actual cutoff frequency is only correct for very low frequencies and approximately gets more and more off until it doesn't move at all. Problem number 2: [bp~] and [vcf~] don't have zeros at DC and Nyquist. For low Q values, the slope is different for each side and changes with frequency. Problem number 3: the gain at the center frequency is not 1 for both [bp~] and [vcf~]. It rather depends on frequency and Q. [bp~] even has has a gain of 2 for Q <= 1! I did some FFT plots, see the attachment. I remember Miller saying somewhere that these filters are not designed
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
> If iemlib's license allows to use the recipe in BSD IMHO, the correct formular for the cutoff frequency below (which I guess is also used in [hp1~] since the frequency response is the same) is 'common knowledge', so I don't think you'd have to pay attention to any licence. > Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 13:52 Uhr > Von: "Christof Ressi" > An: katja , "Miller Puckette" > Cc: pd-list > Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? > > > But coefficients aren't recalculated so > > often, therefore this difference will be negligible. > > That's a good point. You're right that both involve a feedback and > feedforward, so I'm wondering why [hp1~] needs more CPU... otherwise, > iemlib's filters are very efficient. > > Anyway, I researched a bit and found the reason why the frequency response of > Pd filters seems 'wrong': > > Miller uses a formular for calculating the cutoff frequency which is taken > from analog filters but is not really adequate for digital filters since it > doesn't reflect the cyclic nature of the digital domain (although you can see > it in some articles on digital filters). > > Let's take [hip~] as an example: > > the formular for a 1-pole 1-zero highpass goes: > y[n] = (x[n] - x[n-1]) * (1 + k) / 2 + k * y[n-1] > > Miller calculates the position of the pole with > k = 1 - (fc * 2*pi / SR). > > The correct formular, however (if you want the frequency response to be zero > at Nyquist!), would be > k = (1-sin(a))/cos(a), where a = fc * 2*pi / SR. > > You can find it here: > http://www.arpchord.com/pdf/coeffs_first_order_filters_0p1.pdf > > BTW, the reason why [hip~] seems to get stuck at 7018 Hz is because Miller > clips the coefficient below 0, so it never reaches -1 (where the gain would > be all zero). > > Also, there is another approximation with a similiar behaviour, which goes > like this: > k = e^(-2*pi*fc/SR). I could find it here: http://www.dspguide.com/ch19/2.htm > Here, the pole can only move from 1 to 0 and doesn't ever reach -1 as well. > > Now, is the behaviour of [hip~] 'wrong'? > If you define at 1-pole 1-zero high pass filter as something which passes > everything at fc = DC and blocks everything at fc = Nyquist, then I'd say > yes. > If it should roughly model an analogue filter (where the cutoff frequency can > go up to infinity) for low cutoff frequencies only, then I'd say no. > > Also, as I tried to point out, this issue with the cutoff frequency is true > for all Pd filters! > > So I think this behaviour should either be changed (great, if Katja is > willing to submit a patch!) or documented in the help patch (gain is not 0 at > Nyquist!). > > I'm not an engineer or any expert on filter design. It's just my two cents :-) > > Christof > > > > > > > Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 11:39 Uhr > > Von: katja > > An: "Christof Ressi" > > Cc: pd-list > > Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? > > > > I'm pretty confident [hip~] would not loose its efficiency when using > > iemlib's recipe. Both hi pass filters have a feed forward and feedback > > component, with coefficients for normalization and feedback. > > Calculation of these coefficients is a bit more involved with iemlib's > > recipe, using trig functions. But coefficients aren't recalculated so > > often, therefore this difference will be negligible. > > > > To reassure, it is not my intention to spark another 'what's wrong > > with pd' thread. If iemlib's license allows to use the recipe in BSD > > code I'll try patch the C of [hip~] and submit on the tracker for > > review. Who knows, it may be a no-brainer. > > > > Katja > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 2:34 AM, Christof Ressi > > wrote: > > > There are a number of big problems with all build-in filters in Pd > > > (expect for the raw filters). > > > > > > Problem number 1: > > > [lop~] and [hip~] both use a weird (you could also say: wrong) formula > > > for the cutoff frequency which makes them gradually converge to a fixed > > > output state (reached by about 7000 Hz). The same is true for [vcf~] and > > > [bp~] with Q <= 1. Therefore the actual cutoff frequency is only correct > > > for very low frequencies and approximately gets more and more off until > > > i
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
> But coefficients aren't recalculated so > often, therefore this difference will be negligible. That's a good point. You're right that both involve a feedback and feedforward, so I'm wondering why [hp1~] needs more CPU... otherwise, iemlib's filters are very efficient. Anyway, I researched a bit and found the reason why the frequency response of Pd filters seems 'wrong': Miller uses a formular for calculating the cutoff frequency which is taken from analog filters but is not really adequate for digital filters since it doesn't reflect the cyclic nature of the digital domain (although you can see it in some articles on digital filters). Let's take [hip~] as an example: the formular for a 1-pole 1-zero highpass goes: y[n] = (x[n] - x[n-1]) * (1 + k) / 2 + k * y[n-1] Miller calculates the position of the pole with k = 1 - (fc * 2*pi / SR). The correct formular, however (if you want the frequency response to be zero at Nyquist!), would be k = (1-sin(a))/cos(a), where a = fc * 2*pi / SR. You can find it here: http://www.arpchord.com/pdf/coeffs_first_order_filters_0p1.pdf BTW, the reason why [hip~] seems to get stuck at 7018 Hz is because Miller clips the coefficient below 0, so it never reaches -1 (where the gain would be all zero). Also, there is another approximation with a similiar behaviour, which goes like this: k = e^(-2*pi*fc/SR). I could find it here: http://www.dspguide.com/ch19/2.htm Here, the pole can only move from 1 to 0 and doesn't ever reach -1 as well. Now, is the behaviour of [hip~] 'wrong'? If you define at 1-pole 1-zero high pass filter as something which passes everything at fc = DC and blocks everything at fc = Nyquist, then I'd say yes. If it should roughly model an analogue filter (where the cutoff frequency can go up to infinity) for low cutoff frequencies only, then I'd say no. Also, as I tried to point out, this issue with the cutoff frequency is true for all Pd filters! So I think this behaviour should either be changed (great, if Katja is willing to submit a patch!) or documented in the help patch (gain is not 0 at Nyquist!). I'm not an engineer or any expert on filter design. It's just my two cents :-) Christof > Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 um 11:39 Uhr > Von: katja > An: "Christof Ressi" > Cc: pd-list > Betreff: Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? > > I'm pretty confident [hip~] would not loose its efficiency when using > iemlib's recipe. Both hi pass filters have a feed forward and feedback > component, with coefficients for normalization and feedback. > Calculation of these coefficients is a bit more involved with iemlib's > recipe, using trig functions. But coefficients aren't recalculated so > often, therefore this difference will be negligible. > > To reassure, it is not my intention to spark another 'what's wrong > with pd' thread. If iemlib's license allows to use the recipe in BSD > code I'll try patch the C of [hip~] and submit on the tracker for > review. Who knows, it may be a no-brainer. > > Katja > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 2:34 AM, Christof Ressi wrote: > > There are a number of big problems with all build-in filters in Pd (expect > > for the raw filters). > > > > Problem number 1: > > [lop~] and [hip~] both use a weird (you could also say: wrong) formula for > > the cutoff frequency which makes them gradually converge to a fixed output > > state (reached by about 7000 Hz). The same is true for [vcf~] and [bp~] > > with Q <= 1. Therefore the actual cutoff frequency is only correct for very > > low frequencies and approximately gets more and more off until it doesn't > > move at all. > > > > Problem number 2: > > [bp~] and [vcf~] don't have zeros at DC and Nyquist. For low Q values, the > > slope is different for each side and changes with frequency. > > > > Problem number 3: > > the gain at the center frequency is not 1 for both [bp~] and [vcf~]. It > > rather depends on frequency and Q. [bp~] even has has a gain of 2 for Q <= > > 1! > > > > I did some FFT plots, see the attachment. > > > > I remember Miller saying somewhere that these filters are not designed for > > high cutoff frequencies - but even for low frequencies, the behaviour of > > [bp~] and [vcf~] is horrible. I can see these filters are mere > > approximations to reduce CPU usage. > > [hip~] is indeed much more efficient than iemlib's [hp1~], so it's well > > suited for DC removal (but not much else). > > [bp~] only is a little bit more CPU friendly than iemlib's [bp2~] - bu
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
I'm pretty confident [hip~] would not loose its efficiency when using iemlib's recipe. Both hi pass filters have a feed forward and feedback component, with coefficients for normalization and feedback. Calculation of these coefficients is a bit more involved with iemlib's recipe, using trig functions. But coefficients aren't recalculated so often, therefore this difference will be negligible. To reassure, it is not my intention to spark another 'what's wrong with pd' thread. If iemlib's license allows to use the recipe in BSD code I'll try patch the C of [hip~] and submit on the tracker for review. Who knows, it may be a no-brainer. Katja On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 2:34 AM, Christof Ressi wrote: > There are a number of big problems with all build-in filters in Pd (expect > for the raw filters). > > Problem number 1: > [lop~] and [hip~] both use a weird (you could also say: wrong) formula for > the cutoff frequency which makes them gradually converge to a fixed output > state (reached by about 7000 Hz). The same is true for [vcf~] and [bp~] with > Q <= 1. Therefore the actual cutoff frequency is only correct for very low > frequencies and approximately gets more and more off until it doesn't move at > all. > > Problem number 2: > [bp~] and [vcf~] don't have zeros at DC and Nyquist. For low Q values, the > slope is different for each side and changes with frequency. > > Problem number 3: > the gain at the center frequency is not 1 for both [bp~] and [vcf~]. It > rather depends on frequency and Q. [bp~] even has has a gain of 2 for Q <= 1! > > I did some FFT plots, see the attachment. > > I remember Miller saying somewhere that these filters are not designed for > high cutoff frequencies - but even for low frequencies, the behaviour of > [bp~] and [vcf~] is horrible. I can see these filters are mere approximations > to reduce CPU usage. > [hip~] is indeed much more efficient than iemlib's [hp1~], so it's well > suited for DC removal (but not much else). > [bp~] only is a little bit more CPU friendly than iemlib's [bp2~] - but the > latter one has a correct and stable frequency response. > [vcf~], however, is a real CPU sucker!!! 100 [vcf~] objects need 3,40% on my > laptop whereas 100 of iemlib's [vcf_bp2~] only need 1,80%! But you have to > consider that [vcf_bp2~] not only acts correctly but lets you set the Q at > audio rate. The high CPU usage of [vcf~] seems like a bug to me... > > I only use the vanilla filters for the most basic stuff like DC removal and > smoothing. I guess these are the use cases which Miller had in mind and that > way [lop~] and [hip~] have their justification (although there should be some > more warning about the 'wrong' frequency response in the help file). > But [bp~] and [vcf~] are almost unusable IMHO and should probably be replaced > by better filters in the future (while keeping the old ones for compatibility > reasons). > > Christof > > >> Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2016 um 23:51 Uhr >> Von: katja >> An: pd-list >> Betreff: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? >> >> In pd 0.47.1 [hip~] is still not perfect. Attenuation at cutoff is not >> constant over the frequency range: -6 dB with cutoff=SR/8, -3 dB with >> cutoff=SR/4, 0 DB with cutoff=SR/2. In contrast, iemlib's [hp1~] has >> -3 dB at cutoff consistently. >> >> Could vanilla pd implement iemlib's hipass filter recipe? I don't know >> if the license also covers the math. Documentation in >> https://git.iem.at/pd/iemlib/tree/master points to external literature >> for part of the math (bilinear transform). I've implemented the recipe >> with vanilla objects for comparison, see attached. >> >> Katja >> ___ >> Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> >> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list >> ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe?
There are a number of big problems with all build-in filters in Pd (expect for the raw filters). Problem number 1: [lop~] and [hip~] both use a weird (you could also say: wrong) formula for the cutoff frequency which makes them gradually converge to a fixed output state (reached by about 7000 Hz). The same is true for [vcf~] and [bp~] with Q <= 1. Therefore the actual cutoff frequency is only correct for very low frequencies and approximately gets more and more off until it doesn't move at all. Problem number 2: [bp~] and [vcf~] don't have zeros at DC and Nyquist. For low Q values, the slope is different for each side and changes with frequency. Problem number 3: the gain at the center frequency is not 1 for both [bp~] and [vcf~]. It rather depends on frequency and Q. [bp~] even has has a gain of 2 for Q <= 1! I did some FFT plots, see the attachment. I remember Miller saying somewhere that these filters are not designed for high cutoff frequencies - but even for low frequencies, the behaviour of [bp~] and [vcf~] is horrible. I can see these filters are mere approximations to reduce CPU usage. [hip~] is indeed much more efficient than iemlib's [hp1~], so it's well suited for DC removal (but not much else). [bp~] only is a little bit more CPU friendly than iemlib's [bp2~] - but the latter one has a correct and stable frequency response. [vcf~], however, is a real CPU sucker!!! 100 [vcf~] objects need 3,40% on my laptop whereas 100 of iemlib's [vcf_bp2~] only need 1,80%! But you have to consider that [vcf_bp2~] not only acts correctly but lets you set the Q at audio rate. The high CPU usage of [vcf~] seems like a bug to me... I only use the vanilla filters for the most basic stuff like DC removal and smoothing. I guess these are the use cases which Miller had in mind and that way [lop~] and [hip~] have their justification (although there should be some more warning about the 'wrong' frequency response in the help file). But [bp~] and [vcf~] are almost unusable IMHO and should probably be replaced by better filters in the future (while keeping the old ones for compatibility reasons). Christof > Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2016 um 23:51 Uhr > Von: katja > An: pd-list > Betreff: [PD] could vanilla borrow iemlib's hi pass filter recipe? > > In pd 0.47.1 [hip~] is still not perfect. Attenuation at cutoff is not > constant over the frequency range: -6 dB with cutoff=SR/8, -3 dB with > cutoff=SR/4, 0 DB with cutoff=SR/2. In contrast, iemlib's [hp1~] has > -3 dB at cutoff consistently. > > Could vanilla pd implement iemlib's hipass filter recipe? I don't know > if the license also covers the math. Documentation in > https://git.iem.at/pd/iemlib/tree/master points to external literature > for part of the math (bilinear transform). I've implemented the recipe > with vanilla objects for comparison, see attached. > > Katja > ___ > Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
