Re: [PEIRCE-L] Articles on existential graphs and Musement

[John F Sowa]

On 4/19/2018 11:01 AM, Helmut Raulien wrote:
According to [quantum mechanics] discrete points do form a continuum, 
because they are blurred. Or something like that.


Maybe.  But that would be a different ontology for time.

In any case, the distinction between Aristotle and Zeno
(or Peirce and Cantor) represents two important ways of
thinking, talking, and reasoning about the issues.

That is independent of any version of physics at the atomic level.

John


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Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Articles on existential graphs and Musement

[Helmut Raulien]

John, Jerry, list,

I think, at this point we should take quantums- an relativity theories in regard, which of course Peirce didn´t know. According to them, I think, that discrete points do form a continuum, because they are blurred. Or something like that. Anyway, space and matter are functions of each other, and time and space can transform ino each other (Lorenz-transformation). Or, again, something like that. How ever it correctly is, it does not refute Peirce, but, on the contrary, allows speculations like that maybe time and signs are functions of, or conditions for each other. But we may refute Zenon´s paradoxon, I guess, by saying: Moments are blurred (Heisenberg-uncertainty).

Best, Helmut

 

 

19. April 2018 um 16:39 Uhr

"John F Sowa" 
wrote:

Jerry,

I promised that I would stop.

> JLRC: The emotions that different compositions raise in me
> are not expressed in first order logic.
>
> JFS: I certainly agree with that point...
> I'll quit on this point of agreement.

But this morning I woke up with the realization that music
notation is based on the Peirce-Aristotle ontology of time.

Zeno's paradox about Apollo and the tortoise is based on the
assumption that points are the ultimate parts of a line or time
interval. But Aristotle resolved that paradox by claiming that
the parts of a line or time interval are smaller parts and
points are just markers on a line.

Cantor followed Zeno. Peirce admired Cantor's hierarchies of
infinity, but he followed Aristotle. Peirce claimed that no
discrete set of points could ever form a true continuum. For
discussion, see the intro to RLT by Ketner and Putnam.

With the Peirce-Aristotle ontology of time, there is only one
temporal system in music: a continuous line subdivided in
intervals. The beats per measure are markers on that interval.

And by the way, Euclid also followed Aristotle. He used letters
to mark significant points on his figures, but those points are
are markers, not parts. Ketner and Putnam discuss this "point".

John

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Re: [PEIRCE-L] Articles on existential graphs and Musement

[John F Sowa]

Jerry,

I promised that I would stop.


JLRC: The emotions that different compositions raise in me
are not expressed in first order logic.

JFS: I certainly agree with that point...
I'll quit on this point of agreement.


But this morning I woke up with the realization that music
notation is based on the Peirce-Aristotle ontology of time.

Zeno's paradox about Apollo and the tortoise is based on the
assumption that points are the ultimate parts of a line or time
interval.  But Aristotle resolved that paradox by claiming that
the parts of a line or time interval are smaller parts and
points are just markers on a line.

Cantor followed Zeno.  Peirce admired Cantor's hierarchies of
infinity, but he followed Aristotle.  Peirce claimed that no
discrete set of points could ever form a true continuum.  For
discussion, see the intro to RLT by Ketner and Putnam.

With the Peirce-Aristotle ontology of time, there is only one
temporal system in music:  a continuous line subdivided in
intervals.  The beats per measure are markers on that interval.

And by the way, Euclid also followed Aristotle.  He used letters
to mark significant points on his figures, but those points are
are markers, not parts.  Ketner and Putnam discuss this "point".

John

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Re: [PEIRCE-L] Articles on existential graphs and Musement

[John F Sowa]

On 4/18/2018 3:25 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote:

The emotions that different compositions raise in me are
not expressed in first order logic.


I certainly agree with that point.  Why didn't you say that
in the first place?


I will leave the last word to you.


I'll quit on this point of agreement.

John

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Re: [PEIRCE-L] Articles on existential graphs and Musement

[Jerry LR Chandler]

John, List:

> On Apr 17, 2018, at 5:04 PM, John F Sowa  wrote:
> 
> On 4/17/2018 4:41 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote:
>> I was referring to music, not merely a collection of notes.
> 
> I certainly agree that the same notes played by Jascha Heifetz
> and the kid next door would not be comparable in quality.

This response is remote from my point.  
The attributes of the parts (notes) are merely that, attributes of parts, no 
matter who plays them.
I was referring to the logic of mereology.
> 
>> Are your assertions, based on 7 notes in one measure, rather broad and 
>> superficial for meaningful musical notation for a score?
> 
> There are standards for transcribing and linearizing any musical score
> into a form that could be automatically translated to and from any
> notation for first-order logic.

Great!  Glad to learn of such capabilities.

Changing notations is merely that that. (Think of Laplace transforms.)

The emotions that different compositions raise in me are not expressed in first 
order logic.

We have moved rather far from CSP writings.

I will leave the last word to you.

Cheers

Jerry

BTW It must have been a pleasure to have Stephan Bauer-Mengelberg as a 
professional colleague.


> 
> In fact, a former colleague of mine at IBM was a pioneer in developing
> such translations.  His name was Stephan Bauer-Mengelberg.  Among other
> things, he had been an assistant conductor of the New York Symphony.
> 
> He was also a logician who translated many classical texts on logic
> from German to English, and he was employed as a mathematician at IBM.
> See below for excerpts from his obituary.
> 
> John
> _
> 
> From 
> https://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/28/arts/stefan-bauer-mengelberg-a-conductor-69.html
> 
> Stefan Bauer-Mengelberg, a mathematician, conductor and lawyer, was found 
> dead last Monday at his home in Amagansett, L.I. He was 69.
> The cause was heart failure, said a friend, Pat Trunzo 3d.
> 
> Although Mr. Bauer-Mengelberg worked for many years as a mathematician for 
> I.B.M., his simultaneous career as a conductor and teacher included many 
> prestigious posts. He was an assistant conductor at the New York Philharmonic 
> under Leonard Bernstein during the 1959-60 season, and returned in later 
> years as guest conductor of the orchestra.
> 
> He also served as the music director of the St. Louis Philharmonic Orchestra 
> from 1960-62, and as president of the Mannes College of Music from 1966-69.
> 
> His overlapping expertise in computers and music led him to devise a system 
> of musical notation for computers...
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [PEIRCE-L] Articles on existential graphs and Musement

[John F Sowa]

On 4/17/2018 4:41 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote:

I was referring to music, not merely a collection of notes.


I certainly agree that the same notes played by Jascha Heifetz
and the kid next door would not be comparable in quality.

Are your assertions, based on 7 notes in one measure, rather broad 
and superficial for meaningful musical notation for a score?


There are standards for transcribing and linearizing any musical score
into a form that could be automatically translated to and from any
notation for first-order logic.

In fact, a former colleague of mine at IBM was a pioneer in developing
such translations.  His name was Stephan Bauer-Mengelberg.  Among other
things, he had been an assistant conductor of the New York Symphony.

He was also a logician who translated many classical texts on logic
from German to English, and he was employed as a mathematician at IBM.
See below for excerpts from his obituary.

John
_

From 
https://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/28/arts/stefan-bauer-mengelberg-a-conductor-69.html


Stefan Bauer-Mengelberg, a mathematician, conductor and lawyer, was 
found dead last Monday at his home in Amagansett, L.I. He was 69.

The cause was heart failure, said a friend, Pat Trunzo 3d.

Although Mr. Bauer-Mengelberg worked for many years as a mathematician 
for I.B.M., his simultaneous career as a conductor and teacher included 
many prestigious posts. He was an assistant conductor at the New York 
Philharmonic under Leonard Bernstein during the 1959-60 season, and 
returned in later years as guest conductor of the orchestra.


He also served as the music director of the St. Louis Philharmonic 
Orchestra from 1960-62, and as president of the Mannes College of Music 
from 1966-69.


His overlapping expertise in computers and music led him to devise a 
system of musical notation for computers...

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Re: [PEIRCE-L] Articles on existential graphs and Musement

[Jerry LR Chandler]

John: 
> On Apr 16, 2018, at 4:16 PM, John F Sowa  wrote:
> 
> JLRC
>> [Music notation] is pragmatically successful despite the linguistic
>> ambiguity of the two temporal reference systems in the notation.
> 
> The only vagueness in music notation (when written carefully) is
> in the words that refer to continuously variable quantities, such
> as speed (allegro moderato, andante cantabile...) or volume (forte,
> fortissimo, pianissimo...).
> 
> In ordinary language, musicians talk about music notation in ordinary
> language with their colleagues and students.  And what they say is
> sufficiently precise that it can be translated to any notation for
> logic.  For example, see page 27 of http://jfsowa.com/pubs/eg2cg.pdf 
> 
> 
> At the top of that page is a passage in the traditional notation.
> Beneath it is a translation to a conceptual graph.  A good musician
> can read and play the top diagram at sight, but even with a great
> deal of practice, the CG would be much harder to read and play.

I was referring to music, not merely a collection of notes.
Are your assertions, based on 7 notes in one measure, rather broad and 
superficial for meaningful musical notation for a score?
See: 
The Topos of Music: Geometric Logic of Concepts, Theory, and Performance 2002nd 
Edition
by Guerino Mazzola 

 (Author)
> But if the CG were translated to predicate calculus, it would be
> impossible to play without a great deal of analysis.  And any
> musician who did that analysis would probably translate it to
> the notation at the top before playing it
Have your translated your CG notation into propositional statements?
I am curious about what the sentence structure(s) would look like, 
mereologically.
Cheers
Jerry


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Re: [PEIRCE-L] Articles on existential graphs and Musement

[John F Sowa]

Stephen and Jerry LRC,

I changed the subject line of this note to replace "related systems"
with "Musement", which is closer to the word 'Spiel' in Wittgenstein's
'Sprachspiel' than to the word 'game' in 'language game'.

Stephen, if you lost my previous note, just look at the copy that is
included at the end of your note.  But your poem raises some issues:

SCR

The words are from my Kindle book Tractatus which is clearly related
to Wittgenstein.


Yes. But in the preface to his _Logical Investigations_, Wittgenstein
himself apologized for the "grave mistakes" (schwere Irrtümer) in the
Tractatus.  He also credited Frank Ramsey, who had studied Peirce,
with helping him realize those mistakes.  See Nubiola's article:
http://www.iupui.edu/~arisbe/menu/library/aboutcsp/nubiola/SCHOLAR.HTM

At the end of his article, Nubiola wrote

Hookway was able to show that Peirce, Ramsey, and the later
Wittgenstein not only agreed that the vagueness and indeterminacy
of the meaning of predicates is benign and tolerable, but all three
are to be found defending vagueness, which "is, rather, a virtue--
something in the absence of which we would simply be unable to say,
or think, or do the things we want."


SCR

I would recognize a division between any contrived or explicit or
mathematical or scientific language that is logically consistent
and what I would call normal language or some such phrase.


Frege and Russell might say that, but definitely not Peirce. First,
it makes a sharp distinction where Peirce insisted on continuity.
Second, it denigrates ordinary language and privileges formal logic
in a way that he never did and never would.  For example, "Logicians
have too much neglected the study of vagueness, not suspecting the
important part it plays in mathematical thought."  (CP 5.505)

In fact, Peirce explicitly said "logical analysis" has "moderate
fertility", and he called musement "open conversation with yourself...
illustrated, like a lecture, with diagrams and with experiments":

There is no kind of reasoning that I should wish to discourage in
Musement; and I should lament to find anybody confining it to a
method of such moderate fertility as logical analysis. Only, the
Player should bear in mind that the higher weapons in the arsenal
of thought are not playthings but edge-tools... It is, however,
not a conversation in words alone, but is illustrated, like a
lecture, with diagrams and with experiments.

http://www.commens.org/dictionary/term/musement
In another passage on that web page, he compared musement to science:

If one’s observations and reflections are allowed to specialize
themselves too much, the Play will be converted into scientific
study; and that cannot be pursued in odd half hours.


In 1908, after he had long experience in defining words for the
Century Dictionary and Baldwin's encyclopedia, Peirce wrote

Men who are given to defining too much inevitably run themselves
into confusion in dealing with the vague concepts of common sense.
They generally make the matter worse by erroneous, not to say
absurd, notions of the function of reasoning.  (CP 6.496-497)


Clarence Irving Lewis, who had studied Peirce's manuscripts in detail,
wrote the following comment in a letter to Hao Wang in 1960:

It is so easy... to get impressive "results" by replacing the vaguer
concepts which convey real meaning by virtue of common usage by
pseudo precise concepts which are manipulable by 'exact' methods —
the trouble being that nobody any longer knows whether anything
actual or of practical import is being discussed.

For discussion and references, see http://jfsowa.com/pubs/worlds.pdf

JLRC

[Music notation] is pragmatically successful despite the linguistic
ambiguity of the two temporal reference systems in the notation.


The only vagueness in music notation (when written carefully) is
in the words that refer to continuously variable quantities, such
as speed (allegro moderato, andante cantabile...) or volume (forte,
fortissimo, pianissimo...).

In ordinary language, musicians talk about music notation in ordinary
language with their colleagues and students.  And what they say is
sufficiently precise that it can be translated to any notation for
logic.  For example, see page 27 of http://jfsowa.com/pubs/eg2cg.pdf

At the top of that page is a passage in the traditional notation.
Beneath it is a translation to a conceptual graph.  A good musician
can read and play the top diagram at sight, but even with a great
deal of practice, the CG would be much harder to read and play.
But if the CG were translated to predicate calculus, it would be
impossible to play without a great deal of analysis.  And any
musician who did that analysis would probably translate it to
the notation at the top before playing it

John

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