Helmut - no, I'll disagree. Knowledge, as a commonality, as general
rules/laws, is Thirdness. It can be compared to Arisotle and Plato's
'Form'. In Aristotle it is an integral part of matter; it is 'how'
matter is organized. Peirce was an Aristotelian. 

        Edwina
 On Fri 09/02/18  2:28 PM , "Helmut Raulien" h.raul...@gmx.de sent:
  Edwina, List, I think, the knowledge base belongs to the dynamical
object, being its firstness part, the immaterial part, while the
secondness of the dynamical object is its material/energetic part.
Both parts are the object denoted by and part of the
sign/representamen. Best, Helmut     09. Februar 2018 um 19:36 Uhr
 "Edwina Taborsky" 
 wrote:  

          Gary R - yes, thanks for your correction. The basic semiosic set,
as I see it, is: DO-[IO-R-II] - and often DI 

        I think that what is at issue for many is where the laws, the rules,
i.e., the general, non-local, common information, which I refer to as
the Knowledge Base,  moves into action within the semiosic
interaction. I see this as the Representamen. So far- I haven't heard
from anyone where this Knowledge Base comes into action. 

        Edwina
 On Fri 09/02/18 1:26 PM , Gary Richmond gary.richm...@gmail.com
sent:     Jon, Edwina, list,   Jon wrote:      JAS: I am currently
trying out in my own mind defining the Immediate Object as  the
partial combination of attributes of the Dynamic Object by which the
Sign denotes it.  It is partial because (as you said) knowing the DO
in its fullness is an impossibility.  It does not  itself predicate
anything of the DO (as Gary F. said)--that would make it a Sign in
its own right, rather than a  part of a Sign--but it seems to me that
it must somehow involve enough of the DO's attributes to  ground (as
you said) its association with the DO.  Collateral Experience would
then be the aggregate of previous IOs by which someone is already
acquainted with the DO, and thus recognizes the Sign as denoting it. 
What do you think?      I think this is sound. Immediate Object: the
partial combination of attributes of the Dynamic Object by which the
Sign denotes  it. Collateral Experience: the aggregate of  previous
IOs by which someone is already acquainted with the DO, and thus
recognizes the Sign as denoting it.      JAS: As for your thought
experiment, I believe that any analysis of semiosis should begin by
identifying the specific Sign(s) of interest, because that will
affect how we classify everything else.  For example, consider the
girl's scream as the Sign.  It seems to me that its DO is the burning
of her hand, its IO is the pain that she feels, its R is the sound
that she makes, its II is the range of possible effects that this
might have, and its DI is the response of her mother.        As I
remarked, I had been thinking of the DO as the flaming burners, a
sign that the child hasn't yet learned (this, again, is how Peirce
employs this example, i.e., re: how we learn), which is to say, she
has not had collateral experience of fire yet. So I don't at the
moment tend to agree with you that the DO is the burning of her hand
(but I'm still unclear on this). In any event, I agree that the IO is
her feeling of pain, but not the the R is the sound she makes. Rather
I see the feeling of pain (IO) 'determining' the R which 'determines'
the DI, her crying out.      JAS: All of these assignments are
somewhat arbitrary, though, because various other things are also
happening--both internal and external to the girl--that would warrant
a different yet equally valid analysis, even if the terminological
definitions are exactly the same.  In that sense, I am constructing a
diagram  that embodies what I discern to be the  significant relations
among the parts of the (in this case) hypothetical situation.  Again,
what do you think?      I would agree that our several "assignments
are somewhat arbitrary. . . because various other things are also
happening. . . that would warrant a different yet equally valid
analysis, even if the terminological definitions are exactly the
same." But if each of our "diagrams" is different, while some of them
may be congruent, some may not be, may even be quite wrong. So this
arbitrariness brings up more questions than answers to my mind. So I
again wonder if the focus on exact terminological analysis in such
cases (hypothetical or existential) can lead to much that would be
helpful (that is, towards are mutual understanding of the Signs
involved). In a word, these various types of Signs   may be
occurring, but the may also be as aggregate much too complex to
analyze adequately except, perhaps, as exemplify the various Sign
types (pretty much all that Peirce attempts even in the James letter)
which classes, after all, are abstractions from existential reality.  
Edwina wrote:     ​ ET: I think there are multiple Signs involved. I
understand the Sign as: DO-[IO-R-DI]...and often DI. That's the basic
format.     

             Did you perhaps mean "DO-[IO-R-II]...and often DI"? 
        ET: 1. Child touches hot stove: Rhematic Iconic Qualisign     

        - a feeling of hot [without consciousness of it as hot].  DO is the
stove. R is the physiology of skin. II is the feeling.      

        I don't see the R as "the physiology of skin" but as the 'unfolding'
of the R from its IO, the felt pain (, through to the ejaculatory cry,
which as I see it is the DI.      

        ET: 2. Child cries out: Rhematic Indexical Sinsign     

        - spontaneous cry. DO is THE FEELING OF HEAT; i.e., the feeling of
experience the above Sign. R is the physiology's reaction to heat.   
  

        I don't agree. Again I see the cry as the child's Dynamic
Interpretant which for the mother is a Rhematic Indexical Sinsign.
The child's semiosis is centered in the pain 'determining' her DI. 

        As for the rest of the signs involved in the mother's reaction,
well, that's all too complex for me to analyze let alone comment on
your analysis (except to say that, on first reading, I would tend to
agree with some of your analysis, disagree with other parts of it).
Suffice it to say that there are many, many possible signs involved
in her reaction to hearing her child's cry. I think a complex
analysis in terms of sign categories is, well, pretty much in vain.  
   

        ET: Again, my view is that the R is internal, is a general knowledge
base - whether it is physiological, biological or conceptual. So - I
disagree with Jon that the R is the cry of the child...      

        In my view there are at least two Signs for the child, the external
one (I'm still not entirely clear as to  exactly how to characterize
it--but there is a Sign), and the internal one, although I disagree
with you and agree with Jon that it is not "a general knowledge
base," while it, perhaps, operates within one.  

        Again, for me the child's cry is a Dynamic Interpretant (so part of
the child's Sign), but for the mother the cry is a Sign, a Rhematic
Indexical Sinsign. And this final point again brings up for me the
interesting idea of "Signs of SIgns," since the child's Interpretant
Sign becomes a different Sign for her mother (in my view). 

        Best, 

        Gary R                  Gary Richmond Philosophy and Critical
Thinking Communication Studies LaGuardia College of the City
University of New York 718 482-5690         On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at
10:06 AM, Jon Alan Schmidt  wrote:  Edwina, List:   I agree that
there are multiple Signs involved in Gary R.'s thought experiment;
the girl's scream is only one of them.  As I said, any analysis--even
using consistent terminology--will be somewhat arbitrary, since
semiosis is  continuous.   While I have gained a much better
understanding and appreciation of your model in recent days, I still
cannot agree with it; mainly because, in my reading of Peirce, I have
yet to come across a passage where he defines or uses "Representamen"
as you do, for a "knowledge base."  Instead, he writes about the
"utterer" and "interpreter" of a Sign, eventually generalizing this
to a "Quasi-utterer" and a "Quasi-interpreter," which are both
"Quasi-minds" that become "welded" in the Sign  (CP 4.551; 1906) when
it serves as a medium for communication of an idea or form between
them (EP 2:391 and EP 2:544n2; 1906).  The process is no different
when the two Quasi-minds are "the mind of yesterday" and "the mind of
tomorrow into which yesterday's has grown" (EP 2:388; 1906).   The
Representamen, on the other hand, is more like what some have called
a "sign-vehicle" (cf. CP 1.339; undated), although I am not a fan of
that particular term.  It is "something which stands to somebody for
something in some respect or capacity" (CP 2.228; c. 1897); something
having the character "by virtue of which, for the production of a
certain mental effect [its Interpretant], it may stand in place of
another thing [its Object]" (CP 1.564; c. 1899); "that which
represents" (CP 2.273; 1902); and "[t]he concrete subject that
represents" (CP 1.540; 1903).  "Indeed, representation necessarily
involves a genuine triad. For it involves a sign, or   representamen,
of some kind, outward or inward, mediating between an object and an
interpreting thought" (CP 1.480; c. 1896, emphases added). 
Furthermore ...    CSP:  The mode of being of a representamen is such
that it is capable of repetition. Take, for example, any proverb.
"Evil communications corrupt good manners." Every time this is
written or spoken in English, Greek, or any other language, and every
time it is thought of it is one and the same representamen. It is the
same with a diagram or picture. It is the same with a physical sign
or symptom. If two weathercocks are different signs, it is only in so
far as they refer to different parts of the air. A representamen which
should have a unique embodiment, incapable of repetition, would not be
a representamen, but a part of the very fact represented." (CP 5.138,
EP 2:203; 1903)    Not "knowledge bases," but things like proverbs,
diagrams, pictures, physical signs, symptoms, and weathercocks are
all Representamens.  In fact, according to Peirce, each of these is
the same Representamen whenever it is embodied in a Replica, although
I would say that it is part of a different Sign when the Immediate
Object or Immediate Interpretant is different.   Regards,        Jon
Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA Professional Engineer, Amateur
Philosopher, Lutheran Layman www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt [1] -
twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt [2]          On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:01
PM, Edwina Taborsky  wrote:  

        As usual - I have a different outline. I think there are multiple
Signs involved. I understand the Sign as: DO-[IO-R-DI]...and often
DI. That's the basic format. 

        1. Child touches hot stove: Rhematic Iconic Qualisign 

        - a feeling of hot [without consciousness of it as hot].  DO is the
stove. R is the physiology of skin. II is the feeling. 

        2. Child cries out: Rhematic Indexical Sinsign 

        - spontaneous cry. DO is THE FEELING OF HEAT; i.e., the feeling of
experience the above Sign. R is the physiology's reaction to heat. 

        3. Mother hears cry: Both a Rhematic Iconic Qualisign and a Rhematic
Indexical Legisign 

        - mother's FEELING on hearing the cry; mother's connecting this cry
with her child and with pain 

        DO is the cry; R is her knowledge base that a cry is pain; and
indexically,  that it is her child's pain 

        4. Mother decides what to do: Argument Symbolic Legisign 

        - mother thinks how to treat a burn. DO is the events in #3; R is
her knowledge base. DI is the ice and lotions. 

        5. Mother treats child: Dicent Symbolic Legisign 

        - mother treats child. DO is the burn AND the DI of #4, the ice and
lotions; R is her knowledge 

        That's how I see it. 

        Again, my view is that the R is internal, is a general knowledge
base - whether it is physiological, biological or conceptual. So - I
disagree with Jon that the R is the cry of the child... 

        Edwina
 On Thu 08/02/18 8:08 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com
sent:    Gary R., List:   I am currently trying out in my own mind
defining the Immediate Object as the  partial  combination of
attributes of the Dynamic Object by which the Sign  denotes it.  It
is partial because (as you said) knowing the DO in its fullness is an
impossibility.  It does not   itself   predicate anything of the DO
(as Gary F. said)--that would make it a Sign in its own right, rather
than a  part   of a Sign--but it seems to me that it must somehow
involve enough of the DO's attributes to  ground   (as you said) its
association with the DO.  Collateral Experience would then be  the
aggregate of  previous IOs  by which someone is already acquainted  
with the DO, and thus recognizes   the Sign as denoting it.  What do
you think?    As for your thought experiment, I believe that any
analysis of semiosis should begin by identifying the specific Sign(s)
of interest, because that will affect how we classify everything else.
 For example, consider the girl's scream as the Sign.  It seems to me
that its DO is the burning of her hand, its IO is the pain that she
feels, its R is the sound that she makes, its II is the range of
possible effects that this might have, and its DI is the response of
her mother.  All of these assignments are somewhat arbitrary, though,
because various other things are also happening--both internal and
external to the girl--that would warrant a different yet equally
valid analysis, even if the terminological definitions are exactly
the same.  In that sense, I am constructing a   diagram  that
embodies what I discern to be the significant   relations among the
parts of the (in this case) hypothetical situation.  Again, what do
you think?   Regards,            Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas,
USA Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman
www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt [3] - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt
[4]          On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 5:12 PM, Gary Richmond  wrote:   
  Jeff, Jon S, Edwina, Gary f, Helmut, list,   I agree with Jon S that
there is value in theoretical as well as practical (pragmatic)
analyses of the Sign and pragmaticism more generally. While, as I
noted in a post of a few days ago, it would seem that we have been
concentrating on the theoretical much more than the practical for the
last several months, while there is surely a place for discussions of
both on the list. Still, I hope Mary's questions and Dan's comments
will encourage forum members to initiate threads on pragmatism which
are less theoretical.   But first, thanks for this interesting,
albeit perhaps controversial post, Jeff. You concluded:    JD:
Putting the matter in simpler terms, it might be good to ask how
inner and outer apply to signs that stand in relations of similarity
to their objects (e.g., icons), and then take up the question of how
it applies to an individual substantial object, a general
conception--and then to a thinking being like us who sees the world
in terms of what is internal to thought and what is external to
thought. The phenomena in our experience of inner (e.g., subjective)
and outer (e.g., objective) is, I take it, being explained in terms
of the way the distinction is applied in the cases of these
relatively simpler kinds of things--largely because that is how
greater clarity can be achieved.     I'm interested in this matter of
outer-inner from several standpoint including in terms of Peirce's
notion of "signs of signs," an expression he introduces tentatively
late in his work on semeiotic in a letter to Victoria Welby.    I'd
also like to discuss further, but not much in this post, the
Immediate Object--which seems, along with the Representamen, to be a
continuing bone of contention for some. I would, however, note that
Gary f has already given us as a springboard for discussion by
offering a rather useful quote of Peirce's from a letter to William
James in one of the Lowell threads. I think that quotation still
needs to be further unpacked/analyzed. But, in addition, in an
off-list note Gary f commented:       Gf: Quotes from the Logic
Notebook and a couple of other sources. . . make Peirce’s
definitions and actual usage of the term immediate object very clear:
it’s the “part of the sign which indicates or represents the
dynamic object” (but does not  predicate anything of that object,
such as recognizing it as a member of a general class would do).     
  The IO is that “ part of the sign which indicates or represents
the dynamic object” (but does not predicate anything of that
object)." But, again, I would suggest as I did earlier that it
indicates the Ground  of the Object, not the Object in its fullness,
an impossibility. But I can imagine that some might argue that it
indeed does indicates the DO itself, known through collateral
observation.   But for now let me return to my thought-experiment
based on Peirce's example of how we learn, "A child learns a lesson."
   So, again, the example (developed a little): A young child told not
to touch the hot stove nevertheless touches it to find out for
herself. She fulls back her hand as she screams in pain at which
point her mother, hearing her scream, rushes to her and quickly puts
ice and then ointment on her fingers.   I would suggest that
something involved in 'hot stove burners' (the direct object) might
be seen as a sign (or signs, say of heat, etc.) for some here. What
is the putative sign here?   Then the child's mind in relation to the
DO (having 'determined' her IO, 'selecting', so to speak, some few out
of all the possible characteristics/attributes of the DO, these being
most likely iconic signs) forms a ground, or basis, of her semiosis,
an internal sign, that is, her IO-R-DI. So, what is her Immediate
Object? What is her Representamen?   Now her DI would seem to be her
scream: that is another sign, an external sign for her mother which
is (or involves) a DO which, again, 'determines' her internal
IO-R-DI, running to the child, etc. What is the Dynamic Object for
her mother.   Her mother's thoughts and actions represent other
signs, etc.   I'd like to hear from folk on the list how they might
characterize the Signs and semiosis involved in this example.   Best,
  Gary R              Gary Richmond Philosophy and Critical Thinking
Communication Studies LaGuardia College of the City University of New
York 718 482-5690                    
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