[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-07-15 Thread Jerry LR Chandler
Dear Jim, Rob and List:Before turning to Jim's post, a couple of comments about the Salzburg conferences.The Whitehead conference attracted about three hundred (300!!) participants.  The Chinese are keenly interested in Whitehead.  It was rumored that they intend to establish 25 research

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-07-04 Thread Jim Piat
Ben wrote: A 3-D object can be so rotated in 4-D space as to turn it opposite-handed. I remember an episode of the original _Outer Limits_ about it -- some man ended up with two right hands :-). My response: Thanks, Ben. I'm not surprised to hear from you on this

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-07-04 Thread Benjamin Udell
theory also places channels between the stages, especially between encoding decoding.) Best, Ben - Original Message - From: Jim Piat To: Peirce Discussion Forum Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 12:37 PM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! Ben wrote: A 3-D obj

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-07-03 Thread Patrick Coppock
Thanks Bill for your comments. You wrote: Patrick, I'm don't know what in my post you're replying to. I don't keep my posts, so I can't be sure, but I don't recall mentioning an expression continuum, segments or meaning continuum. I may have; I sometimes think I only think I know what I

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-07-03 Thread Bill Bailey
Patrick, My responses are interspersed below. - Original Message - From: Patrick Coppock [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Peirce Discussion Forum peirce-l@lyris.ttu.edu Cc: Bill Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 9:26 AM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-07-03 Thread Jim Piat
Jerry Chandler wrote: "But, my point is that if four different groups are necessary to construct an optical isomer of carbon such that it distinguishes between the logic of polarized light, then it is mathematically impossible to achieve this logical distinction with any notion of

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-07-02 Thread Patrick Coppock
Hi Bill, you wrote: I think it is not very useful to speak of signs as existing in the same process as existential objects, but if we must, perhaps we can say, Yes, signs exist, but much faster than objects do. Well yes I guess so. The sign function may be construed (rather simplistically)

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-07-02 Thread Jerry LR Chandler
Dear Patrick:A few quick notes from Salzburg as I found your comments of interest and perhaps I can clarify some issues.My goals are more concerned with a coherent philosophy of science, especially a coherent relation between chemical philosophy and biological philosophy and medical philosophy. 

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-07-02 Thread Bill Bailey
@lyris.ttu.edu Cc: Bill Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:46 AM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! Hi Bill, you wrote: I think it is not very useful to speak of signs as existing in the same process as existential objects, but if we must, perhaps we can say

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! ...real-reality... truth...

2006-07-01 Thread Claudio Guerri
Asociación Latinoamericana de Semiótica_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks Claudio - Original Message - From: Jorge Lurac To: Peirce Discussion Forum Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 10:22 PM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! ...real-reality... truth...

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-30 Thread Joseph Ransdell
peirce-l@lyris.ttu.edu Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 11:13 PM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! Michael said: [MD:] Haven't had the pleasure of Calvino's Cosmicomics, [but] I like the antidotal sound of it [cure for hyper-seriousness]. The asymptotic/singularities

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! ...real-reality... truth...

2006-06-30 Thread Jorge Lurac
To: "Peirce Discussion Forum" peirce-l@lyris.ttu.edu Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 4:49 PM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!It is found in "How to Make Our Ideas Clear": The opinion which is fated to be ultimately agreed to by all who investiga

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-29 Thread Claudio Guerri
Patrick, List, Patrick wrote the 28 June: I like to start out from Peirce's definition of the real as that object for which truth stands I could not find this definition in the CP... could you tell from where you got it? I found this one, closely related: CP 1.339 [...] Finally, the

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-29 Thread Benjamin Udell
] To: Peirce Discussion Forum peirce-l@lyris.ttu.edu Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:25 AM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! Patrick, List, Patrick wrote the 28 June: I like to start out from Peirce's definition of the real as that object for which truth stands I

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-29 Thread Joseph Ransdell
Message - From: Claudio Guerri [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Peirce Discussion Forum peirce-l@lyris.ttu.edu Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 9:25 AM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! Patrick, List, Patrick wrote the 28 June: I like to start out from Peirce's definition

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-29 Thread Michael J. DeLaurentis
: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:40 PM To: Peirce Discussion Forum Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! It is found in How to Make Our Ideas Clear: The opinion which is fated to be ultimately agreed to by all who investigate, is what we mean by the truth, and the object represented

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-29 Thread Jim Piat
It is found in How to Make Our Ideas Clear: The opinion which is fated to be ultimately agreed to by all who investigate, is what we mean by the truth, and the object represented in this opinion is the real. That is the way I would explain reality. CP 5.407 Joe Ransdell Dear Folks,

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-29 Thread Joseph Ransdell
didn't say that, but he might have.) Joe Ransdell - Original Message - From: Michael J. DeLaurentis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Peirce Discussion Forum peirce-l@lyris.ttu.edu Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:42 PM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! May be way out

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! ...real-reality... truth...

2006-06-29 Thread Claudio Guerri
.edu Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 4:49 PM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! It is found in "How to Make Our Ideas Clear": The opinion which is fated to be ultimately agreed to by all who investigate, is what we mean by the truth, and the object represented i

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-29 Thread Joseph Ransdell
! Joe Ransdell - Original Message - From: Michael J. DeLaurentis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Peirce Discussion Forum peirce-l@lyris.ttu.edu Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 4:37 PM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! Haven't had the pleasure of Calvino's Cosmicomics, by I

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-29 Thread Benjamin Udell
@lyris.ttu.edu Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 11:13 PM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! Michael said: [MD:] Haven't had the pleasure of Calvino's Cosmicomics, [but] I like the antidotal sound of it [cure for hyper-seriousness]. The asymptotic/singularities of beginnings

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Patrick Coppock
At 0:11 -0400 25-06-2006, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: I will be at the Whitehead Conference in Salzburg next week so I do not anticipate much time for replies. Talking of Whitehead, whose process philosophy, or philosophy of organism is surely an interesting and challenging read for any Peirce

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Patrick Coppock wrote: At 0:11 -0400 25-06-2006, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: I will be at the Whitehead Conference in Salzburg next week so I do not anticipate much time for replies. ... However, for us to believe that Firsts, Seconds and Thirds actually exist, beyond their being mere

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Arnold Shepperson
Jean-Marc, Patrick Patrick has a point in that Peirce's categories are such that in representation the higher-order presupposes the lower (is that the way to use `presuppose, by the way?). Jean-Marc equally has a point in noting that Peirce became a `Three-Category Realist' in his later thinking.

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Arnold Shepperson wrote: Jean-Marc, Patrick Patrick has a point in that Peirce's categories are such that in representation the higher-order presupposes the lower (is that the way to use `presuppose, by the way?). Jean-Marc equally has a point in noting that Peirce became a `Three-Category

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Patrick Coppock
Thanks JM for your brief comments, I still think we need some way of distinguishing between that which is for us phenomenologically or experientally real and that which is (enduringly) existent in the world. Peirce and Whitehead both operate with notions that postulate some kind of

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Patrick Coppock
Thanks for your comments Arnold, and yes indeed, what Peirce and Whitehead probably have most in common is their respective competencies in mathematics, and the way in which they use these competncies to consolidate and explicate their respective philosophical projects. It's their maths that

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Jim Piat
Dear Patrick, Folks-- Whitehead, yes-- and also Wittgenstein's notion of family resemblance. Signs, like thought are more or less continuous and resist our attempts to pigeon hole them.OTOH contrasting mere intellectual associations with triadic thought Peirce says, "But the highest kind

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Jim Piat
Patrick wrote: However, for us to believe that Firsts, Seconds and Thirds actually exist, beyond their being mere transitory events in an ongoing semiosic process, would be fallibilistic in Peirce's terms, or a Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness in Whitehead's terms. Jean-Marc responded:

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Patrick Coppock
Hi Jim, and thanks for your comments. You wrote: At 8:47 -0400 28-06-2006, Jim Piat wrote: Dear Patrick, Folks-- Whitehead, yes -- and also Wittgenstein's notion of family resemblance. Signs, like thought are more or less continuous and resist our attempts to pigeon hole them. OTOH

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Patrick Coppock
At 9:19 -0400 28-06-2006, Jim Piat wrote: In any case, what I'm doing here is asking a question and would love for someone to attempt to sort through how the terms real, existent and true are related. That's the big one Jim! I like to start out from Peirce's definition of the real as that

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Jerry LR Chandler
Patrick, Jean-Marc. On Jun 28, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: Patrick Coppock wrote: At 0:11 -0400 25-06-2006, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: I will be at the Whitehead Conference in Salzburg next week so I do not anticipate much time for replies. ... However, for us to believe

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Frances Kelly
Frances to Jean-Marc... This muse is somewhat off topic, but may be related to the subject. You recently stated here that Peirce wrote some thirds and seconds are degenerate, which means that they have no real existence. The statement that degenerate categories have no real existence is

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-28 Thread Benjamin Udell
. Best, Ben - Original Message - From: Bill Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Peirce Discussion Forum peirce-l@lyris.ttu.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help! Patrick: In addition to representing what I have always hoped

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-19 Thread Gary Richmond
Jerry, Here's the 'classic' presentation of qualisign, sinsign, legisign (why they are given in the order of the subject of the thread I don't know, but the categorial order I just gave them in is as to their firstness, secondness, and thirdness). In any event, this is the order in which

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-19 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Gary Richmond wrote: Jerry, Here's the 'classic' presentation of qualisign, sinsign, legisign (why they are given in the order of the subject of the thread I don't know, but the categorial order I just gave them in is as to their firstness, secondness, and thirdness). In any event, this is

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign - help!

2006-06-19 Thread Benjamin Udell
Jerry, Gary, list, A number of recent posts have addressed the topics of: On Jun 19, 2006, at 1:05 AM, Peirce Discussion Forum digest wrote: Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign I am seeking help in understanding the importance of these terms to individual scholars. The definitions are

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-18 Thread Auke van Breemen
Ben, -Original Message- From: Benjamin Udell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: vrijdag 16 juni 2006 16:25 To: Peirce Discussion Forum Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign MessageAuke, list, [Auke] Ben I have the feeling that much of your uneasyness is a consequence

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-16 Thread merkle
List, Bernard, Robert, Joe, Ben, Gary, Claudio, Arnaud, For a long time I do not post on this list. I wish I had more time, so interesting and dear to me is this topic. It's nice to see how this topic is a recurrent theme in the important discussions that take place here, and how new

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-16 Thread Drs.W.T.M. Berendsen
Title: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign List, I did not know the Digital Peirce online site before. But am now reading some article there which I regard very good. And it is just the first article I am reading. Would advice people here who did not see the site before

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-16 Thread Benjamin Udell
Wilfred wrote, "List, "I did not know the Digital Peirce online site before. " I should just send this to every new peirce-lister. Additions corrections welcome. I've checked these links, they're all live, though some of the URLs seem to be the result of recent changes. - Ben Udell -

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-15 Thread Benjamin Udell
ts interpretant's mind? I think that the appearance of the word does evoke a horse in my mind at least, because of the habitual connection of that appearance with an idea of a horse. Furthermore the interplay of singular utterances, qualitative appearances, and habits,do affect the symbol in its habitu

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-14 Thread Bernard Morand
Joe and list, I agree with the idea of being very cautious with the 10 trichotomies classification. You are right I think in recalling that it was work in progress for Peirce. I would be very interested too in reading the material you are refering to below if you can make it available to the

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-14 Thread Joseph Ransdell
Bernard says::, Joe and list, I agree with the idea of being very cautious with the 10 trichotomies classification. You are right I think in recalling that it was work in progress for Peirce. I would be very interested too in reading the material you are refering to below if you can make it

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-14 Thread Bernard Morand
Thanks very much for the quote Joe. The last sentence puzzles me. Will have to think about it: seems like Peirce considered lately that he had earlier put erroneously some considerations related to the (dynamic) interpretant into his characterizations of the relation of the object to the

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-14 Thread Drs.W.T.M. Berendsen
) can also not be a legisign. But I might be wrong. Of course. Wilfred Van: Benjamin Udell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: dinsdag 13 juni 2006 9:51 Aan: Peirce Discussion Forum Onderwerp: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign . If the same rules hold for these 10

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-13 Thread Joseph Ransdell
in mind and I don't recall if that was sufficiently stressed at that time. Joe . - Original Message - From: Gary Richmond [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Peirce Discussion Forum peirce-l@lyris.ttu.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:35 AM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-13 Thread Gary Richmond
Claudio, Ben, Robert, Bernard, Joe, list, First, sorry for sending out that last incomplete message by mistake. Claudio, so good to see you on the list again. I too am pleased to see all the diagrammatic discussion and especially some of Ben's abductions relating diagrams (for example the

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-13 Thread Joseph Ransdell
might state the point). Joe Ransdell - Original Message - From: Frances Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Peirce Discussion Forum peirce-l@lyris.ttu.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:59 AM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign Frances to listers... The broad theme

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-13 Thread Joseph Ransdell
Forum Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:51 AM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign Joe,By now you've read my corrected and completed post so that I hope some of what you asked is addressed in that corrected post. Just a point or so more for now. You wrote: Would you

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-13 Thread Gary Richmond
Ben, list, By now you've received my completed and corrected message which omits the request for the not-simplified lattice version of my trikonic diagram of the 10 classes (since I very much like your simplified form which I included in the revised message) and adds analytical content. For

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-13 Thread Frances Kelly
Frances to listers... As posited by Peirce under speculative grammatics, it is clear enough to me that the classes of immediate object signs are qualisigns and sinsigns and legisigns, and that the classes of dynamic object signs are icons and indexes and symbols, and that the various interpretant

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-13 Thread Benjamin Udell
future. Best, Ben Udell - Original Message - From: Drs.W.T.M. Berendsen To: Peirce Discussion Forum Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 5:55 PM Subject: [peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign Dear list, I would like to state First of all that I regard the ongoing discussion about sinsign

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-10 Thread Bernard Morand
Benjamin Udell wrote : I had already produced the second table (Fig. 3) when you sent the graphic of Peirce's own table. It's really just Joe's table, re-produced asan HTML table, and with the second column put into "standard" order (a, ab, abc instead of a, ba, cba)

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-09 Thread Gary Richmond
Ben wrote: qualisign = tone = potisign sinsign = token = actisign legisign = type = famisign   While these are often called alternate names of the same things, Gary has said that they aren't just sets of synonyms but instead reflect some differences of conception. I.e., for some

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-09 Thread Benjamin Udell
Gary, list, Well, I can't remember any more just what conversation it might have been that started that notion going in my mind till it turned into something mythical. Any record is lost on my old ruined hard drive. I simply have to stop relying on these vague recallings when I post to

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-08 Thread Bernard Morand
From the own hand of the inventor ( MS 339, August 7th 1904) : B Morand --- Message from peirce-l forum to subscriber archive@mail-archive.com

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-08 Thread Benjamin Udell
Thank you, Bernard!-Ben Qualisign Sinsign Legisign Icon Index Symbol Rheme Dicisign Argument qualisigns – iconic – rhematic / sinsigns \ iconic – rhematic

[peirce-l] Re: Sinsign, Legisign, Qualisign

2006-06-06 Thread Frances Kelly
Frances to Wilfred Berendsen... These signs are of recurring interest to me also, and several past messages dealing with them by experts are in the list archive. Any replies to you will hence be followed with enthusiasm. My present access to the writings of Peirce is limited, but other writers