I liked Louis's probe. I am very interested in the struggles of NA and Aust
Aboriginal to remain a culturally intact group.
I guess he was suggesting that we have to see what the implications are of
applying historical materialism in marx literally when perhaps such
applications
go counter to
Bill:
You make three slightly several different claims here, none of which
is persuasive. If sexist violence perpetrated by males against
females "has its source in the nature of capitalist society", we
should not expect to see it prior to the advent of capitalist
relations.
Rebecca:
Of course
Faced with massive unemployment rates and the disgrace of what is
known as the jobless recovery, the countries which call
themselves the Group of 8 (the former G-7 with the addition of
Russia) held a "Jobs Conference" in Kobe, Japan on November 30.
Like others of the same kind, this conference
James Heartfield:
No I don't. And any way, what has the question of Nigeria got to do with
land rights in the Americas in the last century?
Everything. The same methodology you deployed to rationalize genocide
against Native Americans is used in your attack on human rights groups
defending the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
2. Capitalist culture is very seductive. Almost every incident of contact
subtly lures people to give up their ways. The only exception I know
occured when some islanders gave Captain Cook back his metal axes because
they did not know how to make the tools themselves.
Louis Proyect wrote:
In the green movement, there are "mainstream" groups which function within
the ruling-class establishment and there are "alternative" groups which
challenge it. For example, the Environmental Defense Fund supports
pollution credits and was a cheerleader for NAFTA. It has
On Sun, 21 Dec 1997, Michael Perelman wrote:
I used the word, "seductive", intentionally. I think that outsiders see the
glamor, the glitz, and the convenience long before they see the dark side of
capitalist culture. For example, many immigrants who suffered great hardships
to come to
I have resisted getting engaged in this discussion, but several thoughts dog
me about which I would welcome further comment.
First, without having to lay claim to any particular revolutionary theory or
objectives, is it not sufficient on simple grounds of basic human rights
that we defend
James Heartfield:
Whatever attitude we today might want to take towards the rights of
indigenous peoples, it is difficult to find a case for them within the
writings of Marx and Engels (whose attitude seems at times close to
genocidal).
Some examples:
'Just as each century has its own Nature,
In message l03102805b0c31f03af13@[166.84.250.86], Doug Henwood
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
I don't know either, really, which is why I asked a lot of questions,
instead of my usual mode of vigorous assertion. Terry Eagleton says in his
little book on postmodernism that to a Marxist, capitalism is
Forwarded message:
From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Dec 21 22:42:13 1997
Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "'me'" [EMAIL PROTECTED], "'pen-l'" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Native American land rights
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 97 14:38:00 PST
Message-ID: [EMAIL
James Heartfield wrote:
Capitalism does two things at the same time:
1. It develops social productivity to the point that it is possible to
advance to a better society
Or does it? I am not convinced of the long term viability of capitalist
development.
2. It makes the persistence of
On Sun, 21 Dec 1997, Michael Eisenscher wrote:
Second, without laying claim to any particular expertise, I seem to recall
that long before Europeans drove the indigenous peoples from their lands,
Indian tribes quite regularly engaged in pretty significant inter-tribal
warfare over hunting
At 18:16 21/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
Quoth Doug, in part:
Michael mentioned emigration from the U.S. I discovered when I did my State
of the USA Atlas that exact numbers on this are very hard to come by.
Counting emigrants, a demography librarian told me, is considered
Much of the discussion on Indian rights has been abstract. That is not
good. Not good at all. We are confronted by concrete struggles. Review the
position taken by Survival International below on land rights in Australia.
LM attacks Survival International and similar groups with a passion that I
The recent discussions on Native American land rights has prompted some
ideas. Bear with me...
First, for another view (from Means') on how one Native American might read
Marx, look at Leslie Marmon Silko's wonderful novel _Almanac of the Dead_.
There are some sections appropriately entitled
On the assumption that some other list members were as totally ignorant
of Living Marxism's existence as I was before John Heartfield's drop-in
and the ensuing squabble, I did a little searching and found LM's
current mission statement, hoping that its implications would prime
the pump of
Business Week, the 15 December issue with the special advertising
section on outsourcing, noted that Clinton will submit MAI as a treaty,
thereby circumventing the House. Will it win.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 916-898-5321
E-Mail
On Sun, 21 Dec 1997, Tom Walker wrote:
Ellen Dannin wrote,
Suppose you were an employer whose employees were represented by a
union. Now suppose that the labor laws you bargain under state that
when the parties reach an impasse, you, the employer, get to impose
your final offer. What
Quoth Doug, in part:
Michael mentioned emigration from the U.S. I discovered when I did my State
of the USA Atlas that exact numbers on this are very hard to come by.
Counting emigrants, a demography librarian told me, is considered
Ellen Dannin wrote,
Suppose you were an employer whose employees were represented by a
union. Now suppose that the labor laws you bargain under state that
when the parties reach an impasse, you, the employer, get to impose
your final offer. What would you do?
-- snip --
The best that
Doug Henwood wrote:
"Seductive" is a very loaded word here - it implies something devious is
going on. Had you used "attractive" instead, the rest of the paragraph
might have been impossible.
I used the word, "seductive", intentionally. I think that outsiders see the
glamor, the glitz,
Steven S. Zahniser wrote:
Yes! In my research on Mexican migration to the United States, many
migrants, as well as prospective migrants, express their strong
reservations about life in the U.S., including crime, drug abuse, and
what some of them see as our excessively permissive sexual mores.
Maybe not resist, but they should see both sides. I remember when I was in
Cuba along with Jim Devine. Young people that I met on the bus would tell me
that they were communists but that they wanted to go to Miami because levis
were so cheap there. They never seemed to ask about the higher
Michael Perelman wrote [responding to me]:
Maybe there are real positive attractions for most/many people
that it would be impossible, and maybe even wrong, to resist. Is it
possible to separate the "lures" - the positive aspects of capitalist
modernization - from exploitation, polarization,
James H.'s citations are interesting. However, be careful. Marx's ideas on
indigenous peoples evolved over time. He became much more sympathetic as he
grew older.
T. Shanin makes this same point.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel.
On Sun, December 21, 1997 at 12:12:09 (-) Rebecca Peoples writes:
Bill:
You make three slightly several different claims here, none of which
is persuasive. If sexist violence perpetrated by males against
females "has its source in the nature of capitalist society", we
should not expect to
from today's L.A. TIMES, Dec. 21, 1997:
Sunday, December 21, 1997
COLUMN LEFT / ELLEN J. DANNIN
The System Is Stacked Against the Unions
A method fairer than collective bargaining would meet the needs of employer
and employee.
By ELLEN J. DANNIN
Suppose you were an employer whose
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Louis
Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
James Heartfield:
Whatever attitude we today might want to take towards the rights of
indigenous peoples, it is difficult to find a case for them within the
writings of Marx and Engels (whose attitude seems at times close to
Michael Perelman:
I will ignore my own advice and raise an issue about the Cato Institute.
For those outside of the U.S. it is a fightful libertarian "think
tank/ideological factory". I did not mind at all when the Greens made
common cause with Cato to fight government subsidies for big
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Louis
Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
James has a similar analysis of the "Odonis" in
Nigeria,
No I don't. And any way, what has the question of Nigeria got to do with
land rights in the Americas in the last century?
Louis' combination of misrepresentation,
Whatever attitude we today might want to take towards the rights of
indigenous peoples, it is difficult to find a case for them within the
writings of Marx and Engels (whose attitude seems at times close to
genocidal).
Some examples:
'Just as each century has its own Nature, so it produces its
The Indians supported the reactionaries, so they got what they
deserved.
I don't recall anyone on pen-l making that assertion. Who was the
original author of the above?
Jerry
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