-Original Message-
From: Michael Perelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Nathan is particularly difficult for me right now. Unlike many liberals,
>Nathan does much excellent political work.
I thought we were trying to maintain some civility here, Michael.
Nathan, here are a few problems with the bombing:
1. It is doing nothing for the Kosovars. It will not result in fewer
ethnic Albanians being killed or driven into exile. This is important.
2. It does not contribute to a political resolution of the nationalist
rivalries in the region. The KLA
Lord Barkley has been notably even-tempered throughout, though you should
see him when he gets going on financial bubbles. At any rate, he said,
" . . . 10) Max's argument that refugees should not be relocated
so that they can be kept nearby to be relocated into Kosmet
reminds me of the Arab a
Nathan writes:
>we have a chance to
>prevent mass murder and it's worth a shot.
The "we" in the above post by Nathan only serves as corroborating evidence
of Jim Devine's analysis. It is not "we" who are waging the war against
Yugoslavia.
Yoshie
Nathan Newman wrote:
> So, Michael, are you arguing that all pressure by the US and Western Europe
> to stop the murder of Kosovans should be opposed, since their motives and
> goals are inherently anti-worker and to be opposed in all instances?
Of course not. The problem is that the U.S. polic
Gar:
>Is "no genocide -- no bombing" really pro-imperialist? Are they
>supporting ground troops or something?
I do not think that genocide is an accurate term to describe Yugoslav
actions in the Balkan conflicts, and not simply because of the
comparatively low number of deaths in Kosovo that Lou
Sam P asks: >The actor Sterling Hayden? Wow! One of my favorites especially
in Kubrick's "The Killing" and Bertolucci's epic about class struggle in
S.Italy "1900" ...<
yeah, that's the one. For some reason, I've never seen "the Killing." I
thought he was perfect in "Dr. Strangelove," which was
--=_10682836==_.ALT
I had written: >>The recent Clinton "imperialist war in the name of human
rights" seems to have unleashed the worst kind of jingoism: when people like
Vanessa Redgrave or the German Greens (and many professors) are eagerly backing
the strategic bombing of S
>
> Jingoism has a fraternal twin, that I first saw during the movement against
> the Vietnam war (in which I was only marginally involved). It's the totally
> abstract criticism of the US (seen as the embodiment of Evil), paired with
> an uncritical adulation of the victims of US aggression. (M
-Original Message-
From: Jim Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>The recent Clinton "imperialist war in the name of human rights" seems to
>have unleashed the worst kind of jingoism: when people like Vanessa
>Redgrave or the German Greens (and many profe
-Original Message-
From: Max Sawicky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>But are you
>really telling me the juxtaposition and sequence of the numbers
>is not founded on any intention of reducing the Kosovo affair by
>contrast? If not, why include it?
As well,
Until very recently, we have been free from anyone supporting Clinton. What
possible reason could anybody have for supporting the bombing?
If I were totally naive, and accepted Clinton's analysis at face value,
knowing nothing of the rest of his abominable foreign policy or of the history
of U.
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Doug Henwood wrote:
> Of course, they'll have to rebuild bombed-out refineries, power plants,
> factories, railroads So the World Bank and the European Bank for
> Reconstruction and Development can make high-minded noises about
> war-recovery "aid," lend the devastated cou
>Speaking of East Tennessee state, they had a really smart steel analyst
who
>was a an expert on Taylorism. No kidding. Also, someone from down thar
wrote
>a real interesting book on the economic causes of the Appalachian
feuds.
>Turns out a lot of feuds, if not most of them were in respon
This will be long and responds to many people over
several days on both pen-l and lbo-talk.
1) Paul Phillips is correct that by and large
the major opponents in Serbia of His Excellency, President
Slobodan Milosevic are even worse than he is. I am also
aware that Paul has never been
Louis, if I really wanted to irritate you, I'd start reading Marx
and posting my interpretations of him. Secondly, the sum of the
parts may prove to be less than the whole's. mbs
> By the way, I want to publicly announce that me and Doug have
patched
> things up, so all youse opportunists and a
I asked:
> >Who killed a million and a half people in the Sudan, and what
was the correct anti-imperialist line?
> >
> >> > In the Sudan over the past 15 years: 1,500,000
And Louis rejoindeth:
> Don't know much about the anti-imperialist line, but I am
damned sure about the line on imperialis
Louis,
Better watch it. Although it has no members in the
American Economic Association on its staff, there is an
Eastern Tennessee State University. It is located in
Johnson City, TN and the former president of JMU,
Ronald Carrier (an econ Ph.D.) who was in office for
27 years and a cor
>Lou's right about the pharma plant, but as I've explained to you several
>times now, Max, the numbers are being circulated to counter U.S. claims of
>humanitarian motives. If the U.S. were really concerned about mass
>slaughter, it would have done something about the mass slaughter in Rwanda
>and
Louis Proyect wrote:
>Don't know much about the anti-imperialist line, but I am damned sure about
>the line on imperialism. The US destroyed over half of Sudan's
>pharmaceutical industry when it knew beforehand that it was not a chemical
>warfare plant that they were attacking. Anybody who can en
A brief comment on the comparative atrocities business:
It does and doesn't matter that other recent atrocities were on a
greater scale than the Serb cleansing of Kosovo. It matters from a
political point of view, because it means we need other sorts of reasons
to explain US/NATO policy. If hum
Don't know much about the anti-imperialist line, but I am damned sure about
the line on imperialism. The US destroyed over half of Sudan's
pharmaceutical industry when it knew beforehand that it was not a chemical
warfare plant that they were attacking. Anybody who can endorse the idea of
the US a
Louis Proyect wrote:
> Once imperialism is determined to secure a
> victory against its enemy of the month, there is nothing that can stop it
> except the will of the "enemy" to fight back and our own will to stop the
> aggression. These events are the most significant of a generation.
As I s
Attention present and recent grad students: you too can be
securitized and generate surplus value.
Emerging and Niche Asset Securitization Summit, May 3-5, NYC,
Crowne Plaza Hotel. Student Loan Securitization Summit, May 3.
For information, see http://www.imn.com
Some of you could rival those
Who killed a million and a half people in the Sudan, and what was
the correct anti-imperialist line?
> > In the Sudan over the
> > past 15 years:
> > 1,500,000
> >
mbs
This is the type of thing I have in mind as when I think of war as the most explicit
expression of creative destruction to restore the rate of profit.
Charles Brown
>>> Doug Henwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 04/05/99 02:54PM >>>
Louis Proyect wrote:
>But seriously, let's think what victory for NATO
>A suggestion from a mere valis:
>a) it's not a soap opera,
>b) they're being lied to big-time, and
>c) this sucker's gonna end up in their own laps.
>
> General valis
Actually, although Jim Devine's letter to the LA Times took a jocular t
Louis Proyect wrote:
>But seriously, let's think what victory for NATO will mean. Thousands of
>desperate workers in a devastated Yugoslavia, fresh fodder for the GE',
>Alsthoms and Sonys.
Of course, they'll have to rebuild bombed-out refineries, power plants,
factories, railroads So the Wor
I am happy to hear that all that has calmed down.
Louis Proyect wrote:
> By the way, I want to publicly announce that me and Doug have patched things
> up, so all youse opportunists and assorted weasels out there better mind your
> p's and q's. (I don't mean you, Max. Just people like Chris Burfo
But seriously, let's think what victory for NATO will mean. Thousands of
desperate workers in a devastated Yugoslavia, fresh fodder for the GE',
Alsthoms and Sonys.
I found this illuminating article with an Alta-Vista search.
Jon Flanders
EASTERN EUROPE - Investment success goes East
Brian Ca
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--E741C090565D45773DD56C16
William Kramer wrote:
> A union election at Powell's Books, the largest independent bookstore in the
> country, is scheduled for April 22nd.
>
> We are trying to send a message to Powell's that union members bu
I really shouldn't be contributing so much to pen-l today, but what the
hell. At home the drains are backed up but they can't be snaked because of
the power outage (the joy of home ownership), while my son's new meds have
a nasty rebound effect (better living through chemistry) and I have to
grade
A suggestion from a mere valis:
Stop talking to each other, as we're surely in basic agreement.
Instead put together a dynamite FAQ, done in simple binary logic,
and send it to your favorite helpdesk geek at your school or private ISP.
Think of the networking _those_ people can accomplish once th
>From The Economist:
The West insists it does not want that. It does not want to break up
Yugoslavia, it says. It just wants an end to genocidal violence. That means
it wants neither side to win: not an easy objective to achieve, especially
when the use of ground troops has been ruled out.
If
>What's "objectively anti-imperialist" about this?
>
>Bill Burgess
I was being ironic. Unfortunately Eudora lacks the ability to italicise
text. Well, it does, but for non-Windows users, the result is unreadable.
Louis Proyect
(http://www.panix.com/~lnp3/marxism.html)
Gar Lipow wrote:
>Is "no genocide -- no bombing" really pro-imperialist? Are they
>supporting ground troops or something?
The real problem is with the word "genocide" which is being used in the
most disgustingly propagandistic way by the ruling class. No leftist should
be organizing meetings wh
At 12:16 PM 5/04/99 -0400, you wrote:
Devine quoted:
>>A WP story reports that support is growing inside the Clinton
>>administration and its NATO allies for making the ouster of Slobodan
>>Milosevic one of the Yugoslav war objectives.
Henwod noted:
>Another big question - do they really believe
Quoth Seth Sandronsky:/ to
> In my view, the aim of US-led NATO attack is not remove Milosevic but to
> destroy the Yugoslavian economy. The US-led NATO bombing, by destroying
> the country's infrastructure--bridges, water treatment plants, etc.--is
> proceeding acco
Last night I was listening to Matt Drudge's AM talk show. Drudge became
famous (or infamous, depending on how you look at it) for dogging Clinton's
trail on the Monica Lewinsky front and other scandals through his web page.
This is probably one of the most notable examples of the Internet being
us
Jim Devine quoted:
>A WP story reports that support is growing inside the Clinton
>administration and its NATO allies for making the ouster of Slobodan
>Milosevic one of the Yugoslav war objectives. The story reports that the
>topic was on the agenda for a discussion involving President Clinton l
> Fri, 2 Apr 1999
> Throughout this week the macro viruses set new records in speed,
> affecting tens of thousands of messaging servers worldwide in a matter
> of hours. Each macro virus that, like Melissa, sends an overwhelming
> flood of messages from client PCs that have received the infected
> also, is it "Kosovo" or "Kosova"?
> Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] &
Serbs call region Kosovo and Albanians call it Kosova? Michael Hoover
>
>Estimated # of persons killed:
>
> In Iraq due to US-led
> sanctions: over
> 1,000,000
>
> In the Sudan over the
> past 15 years:
> 1,500,000
>
> In Rwanda over the
> last 5 years: 500,000
>
> In Chechnya: 80,000
>
> Around the world
> each day because of
> lack of water, clothing,
> shelter,
At 12:25 PM 05/04/99 -0400, Louis wrote:
mostly the discussion was around how
>the war was a promotion of New World Order/Globalization economic interests
>rather than humanitarianism. In fact the points being made were objectively
>anti-imperialist, compared to the awful crap being disseminated
Gee, Lou thanks for mentioning my old alma matter Rattlesnake U. One
correction though, it's in West Virginia, not Nebraska.
Speaking of East Tennessee state, they had a really smart steel analyst who
was a an expert on Taylorism. No kidding. Also, someone from down thar wrote
a real interesti
Don Roper is going to call me today about copyrights again. I hope that I
can dissuade him. We are doing nothing different from other lists.
The archives that he maintains a very valuable. There were 31,500 hits
last month. In going over the records, I saw people going back three
years to ac
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--_=_NextPart_000_01BE7F6F.96C16620
BLS DAILY REPORT, FRIDAY, APRIL 2, 1999
RELEASED TODAY: Employment was little changed in March, and the
unemployment r
Parenti is always fascinating. If you get the chance, please post a
summary of what he say.
Thanks
Gar
Seth Sandronsky wrote:
> >
> In Berkeley this Friday night, Michael Parenti and others are doing a
> teach-in on the war in Yugoslavia.
>
> Seth
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.
Is "no genocide -- no bombing" really pro-imperialist? Are they
supporting ground troops or something?
Louis Proyect wrote:
>
> Last night I was listening to Matt Drudge's AM talk show. Drudge became
> famous (or infamous, depending on how you look at it) for dogging Clinton's
> trail on the M
I received clarification offlist this morning that Andy Austin teaches at
the U of Tennessee - Knoxville and not Eastern Tennessee State. For all I
know, the latter institution might not even exist. Although I might use it
in one or another of my impudent posts down the road, in the same manner
th
Louis Proyect wrote:
> In the last few years the American rightwing has picked up on a lot of the
> anti-globalization rhetoric of the leftwing.
This is not new. Back in the '60s, half of the sources in the books
distributed by the John Birch Society were left wing. In Thy Will Be Done, I
read
>From: Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [PEN-L:4808] Rightwing rumblings
>Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:25:09 -0400
>
>Last night I was listening to Matt Drudge's AM talk show. Drudge became
>famous (or infamous, depe
>From: Doug Henwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [PEN-L:4807] Re: more from SLATE
>Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:16:07 -0400
>
>Jim Devine quoted:
>
>>A WP story reports that support is growing inside the Clinton
>>administration and its NATO alli
Sender: The Other Economic Summit USA 1997 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Doug Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Breathtaking
Ucchrist_chatter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"NEER Connections`" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Global Consensus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL
the rest of SLATE's media survey (by Scott Shuger) is worth quoting:
>Despite all the havoc wrought in and around Belgrade by NATO since Friday,
the WP sees signs that the bombing may be having the unintended effect of
rallying the Yugoslavs against NATO. The paper describes a large group of
youn
> BELGRADE, Apr. 05, 1999 -- (Agence France Presse) A first group of Russian
> volunteers arrived Sunday in the northern Serbian town of Novi Sad to
> defend Yugoslavia, the official Tanjug news agency said.
> "The Russian volunteers are waiting to be posted to defend Yugoslavia
> against the sh
>From SLATE magazine's daily summary of the big US newspaper's front pages:
>All the papers lead with the latest on the Yugoslavian war. The main
developments are: 1) In response to the increasingly chaotic situation in
Macedonia and Albania, NATO's announcement of plans to evacuate
approximately
Peter D writes:> By focusing on the actual
>people who have borne the brunt of this madness (and not picking
>favorites among nationalist fantasies), we could have played a positive
>role.
I think the US/NATO attack on Serbia is one of those cases that reminds us
to be more careful when we use th
BELGRADE, Apr. 05, 1999 -- (Agence France Presse) A first group of Russian
volunteers arrived Sunday in the northern Serbian town of Novi Sad to
defend
Yugoslavia, the official Tanjug news agency said.
"The Russian volunteers are waiting to be posted to defend Yugoslavia
against
the shameless
59 matches
Mail list logo
