At 23:04 16/07/00 -0400, you wrote:
In a message dated 7/16/00 7:04:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
There is a streak of naivety in Schweickart but I do not think the issue
of
Yugoslavia is central to deciding the merits of his model. His naivety is
that he writes
Justin says:
Sure. Mondragon is just good evidence that the thing might work. It is not
market socialism. It is worker self-management in a capitalist context.
Right, but unless you are arguing that we can somehow manage to
create the world of market socialism at once, a country that adopts
In that case, the argument is meaningless. We can only know if alternatives to
markets can work if we try. Even then we can only know that that particular
experiment did not work, not that no institutional arrangement can work. If the
proposition is not general, it is merely an empirical
The problem is that it is all well and good to say we should be
"socializing markets," but the real world has been moving exactly in
the opposite direction of privatizing the public domain (DNA, water,
information, social programs, state-owned enterprises -- you name it,
they have or are
Elson makes point about demands for state activity absent self-activity
(of various kinds, seems like she refers to citizens more than workers)
being non-starter. She calls for using state resources to facilitate
networks (worker-consumer-activist) to educate folks to develop what
she calls
What did that bad girl do?
I have asked Mine to take a vacation from pen-l for a week.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This snipe is unfair. i have been (alsmost single handedly) giving detailed, lengthy,
precise, and extensive arguments. I do now and then make a suggestion for reading an
original source, but if you wanted an account of the calculation debate, you have a
moderately good introduction to the
So the argument is meaningless if it does not estabalish a priori that markets are
better than any kind of planning anywhere? Rubbish. Nonsense. That is a fast way of
not having to try to answer a very strong, empirically supported, theoretically deep
critique of a nonmarket economy. To see
BLS DAILY REPORT, FRIDAY, JULY 14, 2000:
TODAY'S RELEASE: "Producer Price Indexes - June 2000" indicates that the
Producer Price Index for Finished Goods advanced 0.6 percent in June,
seasonally adjusted. This index showed no change in May and declined 0.3
percent in April. The index for
That's not funny.
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
What did that bad girl do?
I have asked Mine to take a vacation from pen-l for a week.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Michael
Calm down Justin. Hayek's critique is not theoretically deep. It is simply an
empirical claim. But he has done not one empirical study to back it up. It may be
correct or it may not. Only experience will show. Pointing to past incidents of
failure proves very little. As Michael and many
At 07:32 AM 7/17/00 +0100, you wrote:
That is in fact what I rather assumed. I almost said I understood he came
from the "good" university of Chicago. In more recent decades the Jesuits
have had links with liberation theology, no?
as someone who works at a Jesuit-dominated school (one of
At 10:33 AM 7/17/00 -0400, you wrote:
I really do appreciate Jim Divine's contribution, whicha t least comes
to grips with real issues and offers real arguments.
thanks, but check your spell-checker.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
I think that we have reached an impasse here. We all agree that both
Soviet-style central planning and the market are both flawed. Neither
market socialism nor (what we might call, for want of a better word)
real socialism have ever been tried. Market socialism is susceptible to
outside
from SLATE magazine (7/17/00):
The NYT leads with a trend story about how some utility companies are
now trying to use pricing to manage energy demand. The main examples: 1)
a power company paying--at a rate considerably lower than the cost of
buying electricity on the open market--a coal
Katha Pollitt wrote:
and a way for imported academics like Gayatri Spivak to score points
from guilty liberals.
What has Spivak said about the Taliban? Last time I heard her speak
she was talking about Kant.
Doug
Spivak doesn't say that sexist practices in poor nations should be
excused
Well, Big Bill Haywood's work is for the most part
quite inspiring. But his era (approx 1895-1925) was on the cusp of capitals
advance to world economy , imperialism , WW1 ,etc as this changed a lot of
things
for dominant capital and workers movements in antagonism-class combats .
Todays
Michael Perelman wrote:
In fact, I suspect that once we began to struggle against
the system is now stands and build counter institutions, these counter
institutions would be more likely to form the basis of any future
socialist state that some recipe that we would cook up here on a male
I don't have a spell-checker on my systerm, which should be obvious. Sorry. Also don't
have time to write this stuff and copyedit. Sorry. --jks
In a message dated Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:06:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jim Devine
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
At 10:33 AM 7/17/00 -0400, you wrote:
does anyone know of a source for a consistently-calculated measure of the
rate of profit (rate of return) of the US non-financial corporate business
sector going all the way back to 1947 or so? I need some measure comparable
to that published by the Department of Commerce's Bureau of Economic
Well, the impasse was something we reached while ago. Much of the shapre of it
involves misunderstanding. There is a deep, underlying aspect to--many socialists
thinks that markets and competition areevil, and would think they were evil even if
they could do everything I say, and plans
Well, Slate got part of it wrong -- the Times story featured an iron ore
mine. Peak load pricing, though it has some merit, has much less than it
appears at first glance. The reporter, Matthew Wald, has a very short
rolodex, mainly featuring NRDC, to his loss.
The peak pricing freaks are a
Since as far as I can tell, the "impasse" that Michael sees was attained
between Justin and myself, I guess that the attribution of motives and/or
emotions seen below is aimed at me. Since I try as hard as I can to avoid
attributing motives and/or emotions to Justin, so I don't appreciate this
It also shows how a reasonably just health care system that distributes
care on the basis of need can exist in a country with extremely limited
resources whereas the US, one of the richest countries in the world,
leaves many without insurance and unable to afford health care
while cosmetic
Since I try as hard as I can to avoid
attributing motives and/or emotions to Justin, so I don't appreciate this
effort. Even if this remark is not aimed at me, I think that this mode of
argumentation violates the rules of "analytical philosophy" as I understand
them. Attacking someone's
For what it's worth, I agree with you totally on this. BTW, when my
10-year-old son saw your name, he excitedly said "Yoshie!" in reference
Nintendo.
Yoshie wrote:
... A Mieses-Hayekian opposition to our position, however, would be
something like this: "all needs desires of all individuals
Justin wrote:
Well, the impasse was something we reached while ago. Much of the
shapre of it involves misunderstanding. There is a deep, underlying
aspect to--many socialists thinks that markets and competition
areevil, and would think they were evil even if they could do
everything I say,
I guess I am a fan of the work ethic, but I thought that was actually a Marxist ideal,
self-realization through productive labor. But the reason I push markets in their
place is not that I think they will promote such self-realization, but because they
help us avoid waste. Even a LaFargian
Nice, can I use this? I'll credit you with it. Of course i don't think the IH is God.
The IH obviates the need for God. You don't need one entity that smart who knows
everything if you have a lot of little entities not so smart who know a little bit and
a means of coordinating their knowledge.
JKS wrote:
Nice, can I use this? I'll credit you with it. Of course i don't think the
IH is God. The IH obviates the need for God. You don't need one entity
that smart who knows everything if you have a lot of little entities not
so smart who know a little bit and a means of coordinating their
I guess I am a fan of the work ethic, but I thought that was
actually a Marxist ideal, self-realization through productive labor.
But the reason I push markets in their place is not that I think
they will promote such self-realization, but because they help us
avoid waste. Even a LaFargian
The critique makes no sense to me at all. Would von Mises or Hayek really
claim that we do not know our needs and desires without participating in a
market? I know that I want to have fresh mashed potatoes out of my garden
without participating in a market. I know when I want sex without going to
At 04:59 PM 7/17/00 -0400, you wrote:
A perpetual shortage of consumer goods (hence the rule of insecurity
unpleasant surprises) obviously wouldn't do. The disagreement is that I
think the Hayekian critique doesn't prove -- except by fiat of Hayek's
assumption that divinely perfect knowledge
Whew! Some people on this list must have a lot of free time or be
awfully fast typists given the amount of posting that has been going on
re this and related streams. Let me try to answer some of the queries and
respond to some of the issues raised.
The first is easy: Justin, you can order
Paul, thanks for the very informative post.
At 04:10 PM 7/17/00 -0500, you wrote:
Jim, in the case of Slovenia at least, unemployment did not rise during
the crisis as it remained around 2 per cent though this was in part due to
overemployment by enterprises.
right. Also, wasn't a lot of the
It appears Justin that you don't have time to read as well as to check your spelling.
You claimed that Hayek had proven that only markets could provide incentives to obtain
information. He hasn't proved anything of the kind, he claimed it. It was an empirical
statement. An empirical statement
Jim, in the case of Slovenia at least, unemployment did not rise during
the crisis as it remained around 2 per cent though this was in part due to
overemployment by enterprises. Contrary to the prevailing neoclassical
orthodoxy (Ward-Vanek) workers were overly protective of fellow
workers
Correction. I don't really want to have fresh mashed potatoes out of my garden.
They would be much too muddy and it would be too difficult to prepare them.
Just a few additional points for Justin to address:
1) In describing Schweicart's market socialism you included markets as one of
the
Hi Jim Ken:
Jim wrote:
For what it's worth, I agree with you totally on this. BTW, when my
10-year-old son saw your name, he excitedly said "Yoshie!" in
reference Nintendo.
I'm happy that you agree with me. But I don't get the reference to
Nintendo (in fact, I've never played any video
The male list is either A) a problem in proofing my voice recognition program
or B) a brilliant insight into the nature of this and other lists.
Timework Web wrote:
Michael Perelman wrote:
In fact, I suspect that once we began to struggle against
the system is now stands and build counter
Am I the only one who finds this post mostly consist of slogans?
neil wrote:
Well, Big Bill Haywood's work is for the most part
quite inspiring. But his era (approx 1895-1925) was on the cusp of capitals
advance to world economy , imperialism , WW1 ,etc as this changed a lot of
things
The work ethic, as it is typically used, applies to alientated/alienating work -- I
work hard to get
Marx's self-realization was something else.
I just played basketball for 2 hours. I am exhausted. Was my effort a reflection of
my work ethic?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I guess I am a
you are correct.
steve
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000, Michael Perelman wrote:
Am I the only one who finds this post mostly consist of slogans?
neil wrote:
Well, Big Bill Haywood's work is for the most part
quite inspiring. But his era (approx 1895-1925) was on the cusp of capitals
advance
Michael Perelman wrote:
Am I the only one who finds this post mostly consist of slogans?
I am less irritated by the slogans
than I
am
by the zig-zag line formatting in neil's post, which usually
occurs when
you copy from a web page and
paste it into
an email program but somehow neil managed
to
Yoshie's post led me to Brad's article on the New Economy. I found it most
enjoyable. It is a capitalist calculation debate.
http://econ161.berkeley.edu/Comments/Kaching.html
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL
Calm down plase.
Rod Hay wrote:
You provided a lot of bluster about the Soviet Union. I am talking about something
much simpler and more in my limited grasp. Real existing non market institutions,
that seem to work perfectly well.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State
Ken says:
I know when I want sex without going to a
red light district.
If Doug weren't in one of those bouts of despair over the "State of
the Left," he might post say that's because (a) you've retired in a
depopulated corner of Canadian countryside or (b) you haven't read
Zizek. :)
Yoshie,
I'm not inclined to read Doug's posts as 'bouts of despair over the state
of the left.' For example, his posts from Seattle and Washington were not
filled with any sense of despair. He employs Marxist categories of
political economic analysis with the same level of sophistication and
Hi Steve:
I'm not inclined to read Doug's posts as 'bouts of despair over the state
of the left.' For example, his posts from Seattle and Washington were not
filled with any sense of despair. He employs Marxist categories of
political economic analysis with the same level of sophistication and
Okay, Michael. I will, but a blatant misrepresentation of what I had said, added to
several posts attacking my intelligence finally got to me.
I'm calm, really I am. Real calm. Maybe a good game of basketball would help me. And
my next softball game isn't until thursday.
Rod
Michael Perelman
Thanks.
Okay, Michael. I will, but a blatant misrepresentation of what I had said, added to
several posts attacking my intelligence finally got to me.
I'm calm, really I am. Real calm. Maybe a good game of basketball would help me. And
my next softball game isn't until thursday.
Rod
"alientated" work? Is that digging up foreign potatoes for the boss?
Cheers, Ken Hanly
Michael Perelman wrote:
The work ethic, as it is typically used, applies to alientated/alienating work -- I
work hard to get
Marx's self-realization was something else.
I just played basketball
So what is this rule or law to which Hume refers?
Cheers, kr hanly
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Hi Jim Ken:
Jim wrote:
For what it's worth, I agree with you totally on this. BTW, when my
10-year-old son saw your name, he excitedly said "Yoshie!" in
reference Nintendo.
I'm happy that
Dave's report today had two indications that deflationary pressures are
weakening. Is that true? Other reports suggest that the economy might be
slowing down. What is happening???
Richardson_D wrote:
A survey of business economists showed that more companies are raising
prices than at
Sorry. I didn't realise that the stuff about Hume was part of
this longer post or I would have deleted the extraneous material.
I can see that prices are for the consumer a sign of what can be
afforded, and for the hypothetical rational consumer would lead
him or her to allocate funds
Charles Andrews wrote:
From Capitalism to Equality:
An Inquiry into the Laws of Economic Change
by Charles Andrews
The book begins with the facts showing that work and life have
gotten worse since 1973 for 80% of the people in the United
States. The problem is to explain
In a message dated 7/17/00 5:00:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The critique makes no sense to me at all. Would von Mises or Hayek really
claim that we do not know our needs and desires without participating in a
market? I know that I want to have fresh mashed potatoes
In a message dated 7/17/00 5:01:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The
disagreement is that I think the Hayekian critique doesn't prove --
except by fiat of Hayek's assumption that divinely perfect knowledge
is necessary for successful planning -- that planned economy
In a message dated 7/17/00 6:02:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It appears Justin that you don't have time to read as well as to check
your spelling.
Sorry if I offended you. I have no idea what you want out of an argument.
Hayek presents an argument about the
In a message dated 7/17/00 6:58:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I add once again that Hayek doesn't explain why we
can't use planning as a democratic procedure of discovery through
trial and error, figuring out how to meet existing needs and to even
find out
I don't see the point in repeating that Hayek won the debate. Who is
the judge or the referee? The Austrian method is to predicate that
markets are efficient and then to show how any deviation from the market
creates a screwup. Just how well do markets handle information? I
differ with
Can someone give me a short summary of Hayek's triangles. I
gather the triangles illustrate the problem of capital being
transformed from forms in which it could be used for numerous
purposes to forms in which its use is limited. In my hog barn
example, finance capital is turned into materials
Are you thinking about Harberger triangles? I have a discussion of that
subject in my Natural Instability book.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Third-World nationalism often mobilizes the idea of the nation that
masks class gender oppressions
Isn't this a bit circular? I don't mean to be frivolous. And nationalist
discourse that hopes to succeed must sublimate class etc oppressions by
means of/via
From Capitalism to Equality:
An Inquiry into the Laws of Economic Change
by Charles Andrews
The book begins with the facts showing that work and life have
gotten worse since 1973 for 80% of the people in the United
States. The problem is to explain this persistent decline. After
an
65 matches
Mail list logo
