I took the liberty of posting Andy Martin's analysis of the new Velousia
Co. numbers that came in after they found more votes in that County. Andy
argues that the problems spotted with the Buchanan vote can also be found
among other third party candidates. He suggested technical error with
(posted to the misc.activism.progressive newsgroup by Chris Bille)
The following is an excerpt from Alexander Cockburn's irregular
column in The Nation (Nov. 13 issue). Like most of his writing it
is not posted on the magazine's website in order to ensure enough
space for the apoplectic ravings
Original Message
Subject: [BRC-ANN] Quote of the Day: Howie Hawkins
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 03:57:56 -0500
From: Art McGee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Some people in the Greens have been arguing recently that
GPUSA puts too much emphasis
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Nathan:
The continual evasion by Nader and other Green supporters for the results of
their leadership and actions is incredibly distressing on that point.
Nathan, do all voters to the left of Calvin Coolidge belong to you Democrats by
devine right or something/ How
Brad, hang it up. The thing is, we don't accept your iron cage. We don't
accept defeat. We won't go away. Maybe we're mad, whether happy or not, but
you won't make nice but unhappy liberals out of us. We don't register our
suceess by our influence on the DLC. What matters is a popular
when was the 5% eligibility rule enacted?
i looked around for a while but quickly got weary of all the sites about
third parties, etc. none of them seemed to have a discussion of the
date/origin of the rule.
curiously and too lazy to look it up myself,
kell
. . . What would you suggest I call this refusal to recognize that, for
the
American left, yesterday was a strong and significant defeat?
Brad DeLong
Since politics is about what people think, to
a great extent at least, the fact that the movement(s)
coalescing behind Nader have improved
We, at Buffalo State College would be delighted to hire two (2)
"seriously left of center economists" so PLEASE SEND CANDIDATES OUR WAY
ASAP
The following add will be in the Dec. JOE
Job Openings for Economists
BUFFALO STATE COLLEGE (State University of New York)
Buffalo, New York
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The important question we need to ask, then, is whether England
had a "unique" group of peasant holders. A full answer to this
question would require a comparative study of the world
peasantries.
But we have enough research on the peasantries of England and
France to say that: 1) through
To whomever sent the attachments (Max?):
They always come out as a huge block of gibberish.
Please just say that you have the files, and will
sned them by e-mail off-list.
Frankly, there's far too much over-quoting and posting
of full articles and over-quoting the previous message's
Burford:
So why did Bush win Florida by a whisker only after pledging support for
25% of the medicines bill of seniors.
Although the major media has focused on Nader's "spoiler" role and
confusing ballots in West Palm Beach, the real story seems to be black
disenfranchisement. The racists in
It is interesting how narcissistic this list has become -- totally
focussed on the US and the selection of its imperial majesty.
Now I realize how important American domestic politics is for the
rest of the world -- since domestic politics in the US can result in
thousands of deaths of
November 9, 2000
Nader and the Virtues of Gridlock Election 2000: The Best of All Possible
Worlds
by Alexander Cockburn
So it all came out right in the end: gridlock on the Hill and Nader blamed
for sabotaging Al Gore.
First a word about gridlock. We like it. No bold initiatives, like
Globalization—-What Is This Monster ...
I have tried to write an introduction to globalization that makes
the most crucial basic points. I hope PEN-Lers will read it at
http://www.LaborRepublic.org/Essay44.htm
and post their criticisms.
It's something to get away from the election results,
BLS DAILY REPORT, WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 8, 2000
RELEASED TODAY: The U.S. Import Price Index fell 0.5 percent in October.
The decrease was attributable to a decline in petroleum import prices. The
Export Price Index declined 0.1 percent in October. ...
The number of working women between the
From: Michael Perelman:
How could a decent Democratic candidate not win with the economy going
relatively well and no big international problems against such an inept
rival?
---
i guess this is a rhetorical question, but i'll bite anyway.
Big Al showed the masses
Only one problem with this one is the claim that
Gore lost Ohio because of being insufficiently
environmentalist. Yes, the toxic waste dump is a
big deal in that neighborhood. But, nobody should
forget that Reagan won votes in 1980 by standing
in front of a steel mill in Youngstown and
What sort of inequality at the Marxist School of Sacramento is he talking
about? Gender or race imbalance among faculty? Isn't it time for action and
not talk. Marxist schools should set a good example :)
Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Seth Sandronsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A. Cockburn
wrote:
As for Nader holding the country to ransom, what's wrong with a
hostage
taker with a national backing of 2.7 million people? The election
came
alive because of Nader. Let's hope he and the Greens keep it up
through the
next four years. Not one vote for Nader, Mr. Alterman? He
If the aim is to replace the two great evils, how can voting for the lesser
be regarded as positive even if in some ways it does make things better?
Voting for one of the two great evils is what gives them power and
credibility.The lesser evil is to forego minimal reforms to build up a third
The US has had no effective change of goverment in 41 years. Capital has
ruled throughout. There may have been some reforms favorable to the working
class but the result is a health care system that is far less equitable than
Cuba's and a record of mostly reactionary wars and covert action:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It is interesting how narcissistic this list has become -- totally
focussed on the US and the selection of its imperial majesty.
Now I realize how important American domestic politics is for the
rest of the world -- since domestic politics in the US can result in
i can't buy the arguments below.
OK, health care is worse than in W.Europe and some don't have it at all in
the US, but it's far better for most US citizens than just about anywhere
else.
US has no EFFECTIVE change in govt in 41 years, but Cuba has NONE whatsoever
in that time span.
so it's
The person whom I've called "incompetent" most often during the
past week has been Al Gore. I presume you have no objection to me
calling him "incompetent"? That it all depends on to whom the names
are applied?
As for Nader... You somehow think that the left in America is
stronger today
Brad, hang it up. The thing is, we don't accept your iron cage. We
don't accept defeat. We won't go away. Maybe we're mad, whether
happy or not, but you won't make nice but unhappy liberals out of us.
So you agree that for you politics is a means of self-expression,
rather than an attempt to
BDLThe political naivete of people who think that the White House is
some kind of dictatorial center of power continues to astonish me.
BDLAnd in the process he has thrown the election to the right-wing
candidate, with important differences over the next four years for
the Supreme Court... the
Since politics is about what people think, to
a great extent at least, the fact that the movement(s)
coalescing behind Nader have improved definition --
as a collectivity -- means the left is progressing. The
low Nader vote is not a great help in this vein, but it
does not detract from the
Doug asks:
Canada has an election coming up, no? Maybe you could tell us
something about that.
Doug
Well, perhaps Ken and some of the others on the list should also
put their takes on it, but here is mine.
The governing Liberals (equivalent to your Democrats) are likely to
win a
MIchael,
Who serving as Clinton's VP could have done
much better? Bill Bradley? Jesse Jackson?
A lot of people are dumping on Gore, and he
certainly was stiff and made crucial misstatements
at crucial times. But, he was not as bad a campaigner
as many think. No VP was going to be given
Oh, and don't forget Gore's pathetic pander
to the Cuban-Americans on Elian Gonzales.
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:48 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:4175] Re: Re: Perfecting
I don't translate Gitlin to 'enemy.' It just means
I expect less high-level guidance from him. He's
welcome in my movement, just not in a leadership
capacity.
mbs
I've thought Todd Gitlin was a dork for a long time. But "all enemies
on the right" does not a large movement make when you
The VP doesn't do that much, although people say that he was decisive
welfare reform. Gore was a good campaigner when he could set the
stage himself with no interaction, otherwise, he was terrible.
His strategy stunk. Few anti-clinton people would have supported him
even if he had attacked
Michael Perelman wrote:
The VP doesn't do that much, although people say that he was decisive
welfare reform.
Every member of Clinton's cabinet, including Rubin, advised he veto
the welfare bill. Only Gore Dick Morris urged him to sign it.
Doug
consortiumnews.com - http://www.consortiumnews.com
Please forward far and wide:
According to news reports this night, there are apparently as many as
24,000 votes in question now in Florida. In addition to the 3,407 votes
cast for Buchanan in Palm Beach County, it has now been reported by the
Au contraire. I think you have given up on making the world a better place.
I have not. Speaking for myself, only, I don't think that you can do that to
a great degree within the parameters you accept. If you had lived in slavery
times, you would have written off the abolitionists as mad
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, perhaps Ken and some of the others on the list should also
put their takes on it, but here is mine.
I agree with Paul's comments but would like to add a few things. The
Liberals have presented themselves as "moving to the left", presumably
for fear that
I don't translate Gitlin to 'enemy.' It just means
I expect less high-level guidance from him. He's
welcome in my movement, just not in a leadership
capacity.
mbs
I've thought Todd Gitlin was a dork for a long time. But "all enemies
on the right" does not a large movement make when you start
Michael Perelman wrote:
The VP doesn't do that much, although people say that he was decisive
welfare reform.
Every member of Clinton's cabinet, including Rubin, advised he veto
the welfare bill. Only Gore Dick Morris urged him to sign it.
Doug
I've heard this a bunch of times. But what's
Michael,
I agree. But, who would have done better aside
from Clinton himself?
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, November 09, 2000 2:08 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4195] Re: Re: Stop the name
BDLYou think that Nader's 3% showing is impressive?
**
I don't know; do you think Rosa Parks was impressive or was that too, a
one-shot prisoners dilemma type game? We won't go into, why, if N was so
ultimately empty a threat, your religious group and that other church worked
(Posted by Carmen Continuduro to another list: a retrospective preview of
the advance election situation in 2008 - the next President's final year in
office.)
History was making fast. The fall elections were soon to occur, and Paul
Continuduro was nominated by the socialist party to run for
Every member of Clinton's cabinet, including Rubin, advised he veto
the welfare bill. Only Gore Dick Morris urged him to sign it.
Doug
I've heard this a bunch of times. But what's the ultimate source?
Brad DeLong
The New York Times, August 1, 1996, Thursday, Late Edition - Final
THE
Brad DeLong wrote:
I've heard this a bunch of times. But what's the ultimate source?
The person I first heard it from got it from Dick Morris' book, I
think, but someone told me last night that Peter Edelman has been
saying the same thing.
Doug
Hinrich Kuhls wrote:
(Posted by Carmen Continuduro to another list: a retrospective preview of
the advance election situation in 2008 - the next President's final year in
office.)
History was making fast.
Interesting -- except that the invocation of "the middle class" eliminates any
who is he. Where did this appear?
Lisa Ian Murray wrote:
BDLYou think that Nader's 3% showing is impressive?
**
I don't know; do you think Rosa Parks was impressive or was that too, a
one-shot prisoners dilemma type game? We won't go into, why, if N was so
ultimately empty a
I understand that the electoral college was created in part to justify
the representation of slaves in the southern states. In other words, it
was a necessary part of the 3/5 representation. Michael Hoover always
knows about this sort of material."
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
Wellstone?
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote:
Michael,
I agree. But, who would have done better aside
from Clinton himself?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It's a huge loss. I had the great fortune of being a student of Rhonda at the
New School. I was among the last group of students to pass through her two
course sequence in Race and Class, which was really Race, Class, and Gender. My
fellow students can attest to the fact that at the time I
Sounds confused. the 3/5 representation thing was for the House of Reps, the
only directly elected body in them thar days. The function of the EC, if I
recall my Federalist Papers and the Debates on the Constitution, is to make
sure that the hoi poloi didn't elect a populist/radical/democratic
I quoted Hitchens:
It's not enough that the two-party machine has all the
money at its disposal and all the press and media, too. It still needs
courageous volunteers to ram its message home. These unctuous surrogates
seek to persuade us that, though we have no power, we can and should be
At 07:53 AM 11/9/00 -0800, you wrote:
You think that Nader's 3% showing is impressive?
Maybe it was impressive once you think of the fact that Nader voters were
showered by a sh*t-storm of abuse and fear-mongering. The more that Nader
seemed to be getting, the more the fear level was ratcheted
At 01:48 PM 11/9/00 -0500, you wrote:
Oh, and don't forget Gore's pathetic pander
to the Cuban-Americans on Elian Gonzales.
of course, the fact that I don't forget such things is one reason I voted
for Nader.
BTW, the media pundits trash the US public for not having memories, but if
I understand that the electoral college was created in part to justify
the representation of slaves in the southern states. In other words, it
was a necessary part of the 3/5 representation. Michael Hoover always
knows about this sort of material."
At 09:26 PM 11/9/00 +, you wrote:
Sounds
Thought this website might be good for a quick relief from the election
http://www.tvdance.com/bush-gore/
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
I agree with most of what Paul says. I think that the Alliance leader,
Stockwell Day, will jettison some of his goofier fundamentalist ideas for
pragmatic reasons. Apparently in his more rambunctious days when he was
assistant pastor of a fundamentalist church he led his flock to the local
pub
Yes, I know that 3/5 was in the House, but it would be hard to carry
over into a popular election. So the E.C. was a means of applying the
3/5 in the presidential elections.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL
Norm wrote:
US has no EFFECTIVE change in govt in 41 years, but Cuba has NONE whatsoever
in that time span.
The presence or absence of changes in political representatives a la
liberal democracy does not tell us much about a given nation's
political direction. Cuba has undergone much social
-Original Message-
From: J. Barkley Rosser, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, November 09, 2000 3:27 PM
Subject: very minor candidates?
Anybody out there have the national totals
for the very minor
Original Message
Subject: It wasn't Nader, it was Buchanan, who cost Gore the election
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:19:01 -0800
From: Jim Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It wasn't Nader, it was Buchanan, who cost Gore the election
by Jim Smith
L.A. Labor News
www.lalabor.org
One
Michael,
Would be better than a lot. So might
Russ Feingold.
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, November 09, 2000 4:23 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4211] Re: Re: Re: Re: Stop the name calling
Michael,
There was a column in the WSJ today claiming
that the original proposal for the electoral college
came from a guy (somebody Butler) who was
worried about foreigners buying off members of
Congress. The original proposal from Hamilton
and Madison was to have the House of Reps elect
Hi Gene, sorry for the delay. You asked:
Isn't this from Jack London's Iron Heel?
I forwarded your question to Anthony Meredith, a historian who owns the
list where I noticed Carmen Continuduro's piece.
Fortunately, he could be of assistence. His reply:
"Continuduro's contribution caused
MP
who is he. Where did this appear?
Lisa Ian Murray wrote:
David Ellerman is tucked away working on firm governance issues in Eastern
Europe for the WB. He also worked closely with Stiglitz when he was there.
The quote comes from "Intellectual Trespassing as a Way of Life"
I am glad to see a variety of correspondents moving in on the legitimacy of
US Democracy. From the point of view of narrow bourgeois right, the issues
for litigation multiply. From a wider, materialist, perspective it is most
important to expose the relative conditional nature of the sacred
BDLYou think that Nader's 3% showing is impressive?
**
I don't know;
So in other words, you don't.
Every member of Clinton's cabinet, including Rubin, advised he veto
the welfare bill. Only Gore Dick Morris urged him to sign it.
Doug
I've heard this a bunch of times. But what's the ultimate source?
Brad DeLong
Thanks...
Brad DeLong
This is from Johnson's Russia List. The correspondent obviously wished for a
more negative view of the revolution.
Cheers, Ken Hanly
November 9, 2000
[translation from RIA Novosti for personal use only]
HOW RUSSIANS SEE THE OCTOBER REVOLUTION
By Vitaly GOLOVACHEV
The Russian Center for
BDLYou think that Nader's 3% showing is impressive?
**
I don't know;
So in other words, you don't.
**
Thank you God for collapsing the unpredictability of the future with your
unsurpassable foreknowledge of 21st century political-economic history. I
realize your
I'm watching the debates with Chretien on CBC.CA TV [cable]. Would any of
the Canadians on the list be kind enough to let me [us] know who the others
are, especially the woman making him piss in his Depends.
Ian
[anybody know why they chose to do this under WTO rather than NAFTA? Does
WTO have better ajudication procedures?]
Paris, Friday, November 10, 2000
U.S. Turns to WTO in Dispute With Mexico
By Peter S. Goodman Washington Post Service
WASHINGTON - The Clinton administration has asked the World
[James Buchanan meets Myron Scholes]
Paris, Friday, November 10, 2000
Two New Options On Bush and Gore
Agence France-Presse
ZURICH - A Swiss bank is offering financial derivatives called the ''George
Bush'' and the ''Al Gore'' options, made up of baskets of U.S. company
shares that could
Just watched the first 45 minutes of the 2 hour leaders debate in
the Canadian elections. 5 leaders (Liberal, Bloc, Conservative,
Alliance and NDP) Yea, all national (Bloc?) parties represented,
unlike the US. Kind of boring actually. Some impressions (Ken,
Sam, your reactions?)
1.
so this is the way it's going to come down. Gore wins by a hair, after all
of the contested ballots are counted. But then Leiberman will resign as
Vice President to take his Senate seat, to ensure that the Dems keep 50
seats there. But then Gore appoints Bush as Vice President -- as a
Whoops, I said Alexa McDonald rather than Alexa Macdonough --
despite me being a fellow Celt, though of the Welsh persuasion.
My apologies to the Scots/Irish on the list. (She comes from Nova
Scotia, which has not only produced the best fiddlers in Canada,
but some of the most radical
"The Democrats ... are politicizing and distorting these events ... at the
expense of our democracy,"
-- Bush campaign chairman Don Evans.
Tom Walker
Sandwichman and Deconsultant
Bowen Island
I did not watch the debates but I did watch a subsequent CBC News Special
analysis of them. The general consensus of
three groups in different parts of the country was that Joe Clark (leader of
the Conservatives) and Alexa McDonogh ( the leader of the NDP) did the best.
Political analysts agreed.
The entire message is in the subject line.
Jim Devine wrote,
Thought this website might be good for a quick relief from the election
http://www.tvdance.com/bush-gore/
Totally awesome surfing, o devine one!
Tom Walker
Sandwichman and Deconsultant
Bowen Island, BC
At 12:36 PM 09/11/00 -0500, Norm wrote:
OK, health care is worse than in W.Europe and some don't have it at all in
the US, but it's far better for most US citizens than just about anywhere
else.
Far better for most US citizens? I doubt this.
But more to the point - why is _health_ in the US so
I like the West Palm Beach ballot layout. The candidates to try to
camouflage themselves and morph into one another. Why should they be
able to hide their identities on the ballot?
Looking forward to four years of gridlock.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Interesting to see the strong trend during the recount in Florida, for many
more Gore votes than Bush votes to be validated out of those that had
presumably previously been excluded.
This is presumably an automated recount, as the Democrats are now calling
for manual recounts, but perhaps
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