>From Doug Noland's Credit Bubble Bulletin:
Reading through Frank Partnoy's (attorney, law professor, former Morgan
Stanley derivative salesman, and author of F.I.A.S.C.O) candid and
informative testimony (http://www.senate.gov/~gov_affairs/012402partnoy.htm)
presented this week before the Commit
I don't understand this stuff about the observational consequences of
theories at the level of generality of the theory of value. What if the
labor theory of value is part of the central core of Marxism ? If that is so
then in itself it does not have any specific empirical implications
period.
Take the Money Enron: America's really existing capitalism
By Stephen F. Diamond*
January 29, 2002
As the Enron debacle is dissected by almost a dozen Congressional
committees, we are in the midst of one of the biggest scandals in American
history. How could our system of corporate governance a
>
>But SNALT implies that an hour of A's labor may not at all produce the same
>exchange value as an hour of B's labor. If the SN labor time to produce X
>widgets is one hour and A's labor does that but B's labor only produces
>half that number then in this context an hour of A's labor and of
>
>Justin Schwartz wrote:
>
>[Marx] mocks those who proceed from moralism to economics.
>
Doug says:
>And you fully believe him? Isn't a lot of the scientific stuff just a
>mask for what is, at base, a moral/ethical stance.
You know I don't. Not only have I said here, in this discussion, that
But SNALT implies that an hour of A's labor may not at all produce the same
exchange value as an hour of B's labor. If the SN labor time to produce X
widgets is one hour and A's labor does that but B's labor only produces
half that number then in this context an hour of A's labor and of B's are
n
Actually the terms of the lease require that criminals who escape to Cuba
will be returned and vice versa should Cuban criminals flee to Guantanamo.
Of course Castro no doubt would question the legality of the lease
agreement.
Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: "michael puglie
I have been keeping a file on the earliet convoy stories. Some Afghan
sources claimed the convoy was going to Kabul to be present at Karzai's
installation. Reporters on the scene give eye witness accounts at variance
with the official US version of events. US sources claimed that they would
invest
ANGERED BY SNUBBING, LIBYA, CHINA
SYRIA FORM AXIS OF JUST AS EVIL
Cuba, Sudan, Serbia Form Axis of Somewhat Evil; Other Nations Start Own
Clubs
Beijing (SatireWire.com) - Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the
"Axis of Evil," Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had formed the
"
[FT]
A new era of protest
Rallies in New York and Porto Alegre are giving the
anti-globalisation movement a chance to re-establish its
credentials in the post-September 11 world, writes James Harding
Published: February 1 2002 19:41 | Last Updated: February 1 2002
22:46
In Porto Alegre this wee
Surely Marx did not say either what Justin or Rakesh claim.
Rakesh' claim (re Marx) is correct about value in EXCHANGE but does not
apply to use value. Air and sunlight etc. are valuable even if not involved
in any exchange relationship and their use value is quite independent of
labor.
Cheers,
[FT]
Argentina thrown into fresh chaos
By Thomas Catán in Buenos Aires
Published: February 1 2002 23:18 | Last Updated: February 2 2002
00:17
Argentina was thrown into fresh chaos on Friday when the supreme
court declared emergency financial controls to be unconstitutional,
raising the prospect
> Sir Sabri Oncu
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Marx argued critique of civil society, not on basis
> of some morality. Below is my critique on Zizek,etc.
> based on Marx's critique of fetishism
Miyachi San,
Thank you very much for sharing your critique on Zizek with me. I
have not read it as yet but
- Original Message -
From: "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
One way of summarizing this whole issue is as follows:
(1) the distinction between value and price roughly corresponds to
the
orthodox distinction between "social opportunity cost" and
opportunity cost
to an individual. Both
Solidarity Action required.
Solidaritätsaktionen werden von kolumbianischen Menschenrechtlern erbeten.
Infos leider nur in Englisch sorry..
+++
Link below / Link steht unten
+++
on 2/2/02 02:55 AM, Justin Schwartz at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
>>
>> But the argument that workers contribute more to the value of output
>> than they receive in compensation does not necessarily imply that
>> either:
>>
>> a) labor is the only source of value
>>
>> or
>>
>> b) that wor
on 2/2/02 04:01 AM, Sabri Oncu at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Marx seemed to try to avoid moralism in Capital, but sometimes
> he let his
>> moral outrage creep in even though that violated his
> methodological
>> principles. I alway found his notion that capitalist were
> merely the
>> character
[was: RE: [PEN-L:22192] Re: RE: Re: re: re: Historical Materialism]
Ian asks:
> If one can do the quantitative side of Marx without the value
> theory and achieve the same results as those who use the value
> theory, which side is being redundant with regards to that aspect
> of Marx's corpus?
[odd numbers of >>> bracket Justin's writing; even numbers are for mine.]
I wrote:Marx didn't say that price is proportional to value. in volume I
of CAPITAL, he _assumed_ such proportionality in order to break through the
fetishism of commodities, to reveal the macro- and micro-sociology of
Short of reading Patrick Cockburn's book on the Ba'athist
regime from a few yrs. ago, for a good run-down on the Iraqi
National Congress, see the Federation of American Scientists
website here for a Congressional Research Service history of
the INC. http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/inc.htm T
>Justin: clip...The vulgar version is wrong in any case
>because there is no reason to deny that there may be many factors,
>including
>subjective ones (demand) that go into value.
>
>^^
>
>CB: This suggests lack of understanding of Marx's analytical distinction
>between use-value and excha
- Original Message -
From: "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:11 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:22191] RE: Re: re: re: Historical Materialism
Ian quotes Joan Robinson:
> "The awkwardness of reckoning in terms of values, while
commodities
>
Ian quotes Joan Robinson:
> "The awkwardness of reckoning in terms of values, while commodities
> and labor power are constantly changing in values, accounts for
> much of the obscurity of Marx's exposition, and none of the
> important ideas he expresses in terms of the conceptof value cannot
> b
' Intervention In Iraq ' Claims Of New York Times
ANKARA, Feb 1 (A.A) - National Defense Minister Sabahattin
Cakmakoglu, speaking about the allegations of New York Times
journalist William Safire that the Turkish tanks would intervene
in Iraq together with the U.S. special teams, said, ''I don't
[from the Guardian]
Comment
Enron: not the only bad apple
The deregulation of the energy industry is rotten to the core,
writes Greg Palast
Friday February 1, 2002
I guess I'm not a nice guy. But when I heard that Enron's former
vice-chairman Cliff Baxter had shunted his mortal coil, I shed no
t
On Friday, February 1, 2002 at 15:51:54 (-0500) Doug Henwood writes:
>Eugene Coyle wrote:
>
>>Krugman's remarks would have been useful to the public two or three years
>>ago. Now it is just newspaper filler.
>
>Not in the context of politics today. He's the sharpest critic of
>Bush on the NYT's
BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS, DAILY REPORT, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 1, 2002
RELEASED TODAY: Employment continued to decline in January, and the
unemployment rate decreased to 5.6 percent, the Bureau of Labor Statistics
reported today. Nonfarm payroll employment declined by 89,000 over the
month, as job
- Original Message -
From: "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
(1) > Maybe we are not talking the same language. I do not mean by
saying
that Marx holds that prices are prop, to value that commodities
trade at
value, just that there is a function that takes you from value to
prices,
and
Eugene Coyle wrote:
>Krugman's remarks would have been useful to the public two or three years
>ago. Now it is just newspaper filler.
Not in the context of politics today. He's the sharpest critic of
Bush on the NYT's op-ed page - a mostly dull and conventional venue
that nonetheless has enor
dd writes: >>Out of interest, what's wrong with the labour theory of value
[LTV]? Do the AMs [analytical Marxists] have an alternative theory of
value, or do you try to get along without one? Feel free to not answer if it
would take more labour than is worth bothering with.<<
A central question
Krugman's remarks would have been useful to the public two or three years
ago. Now it is just newspaper filler.
Gene Coyle
Carl Remick wrote:
> >From: Michael Pollak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >New York Times
> >February 1, 2002
> >
> >Two, Three, Many?
> >
> >By PAUL KRUGMAN
> >
> >... When th
The following is (1) Justin's reply to what I said in the message I just
forwarded to pen-l, plus (2) my reply to him. -- Jim Devine
I originally said: >>Marx didn't say that price is proportional to value. As
is pretty clear if you read all three volumes of the damn book,<<
(1) Justin responde
[I sent this to Justin -- and not the list as a whole -- by mistake. The
e-mail program at my office works one way and the one at home another!]
Justin writes: >However, I argued that it [Marx's theory of exploitation]
did not require the labor theory of value in Marx's canonical formulation to
I received this from a friend who scanned it from his highschool
english book entitled "Reader's Digest". We both graduated from
highschool in 1979 so the book must have been published before
that. This story is from the 6th and last volume of that book.
The book was nothing but a collection of es
Justin: clip...The vulgar version is wrong in any case
because there is no reason to deny that there may be many factors, including
subjective ones (demand) that go into value.
^^
CB: This suggests lack of understanding of Marx's analytical distinction between
use-value and exchange-valu
Justin Schwartz wrote:
>He mocks those who proceed from moralism to economics.
And you fully believe him? Isn't a lot of the scientific stuff just a
mask for what is, at base, a moral/ethical stance. But being too
hardheaded, and a good 19th century thinker, Marx didn't want to
appear that wa
>CB: What would be the advantage of formulating [exploitation theory]
>without Marx's way of formulating it , or Engels' way ?
>
>^
Making it clearer, getting it right, avoiding ambiguities, problems, and
objections with their versions.
>I want to say this respectfully, but I think it i
Historical Materialism
by Davies, Daniel
01 February 2002 16:01 UTC
>Why? The question is, what work does this alleged quantity do? I agree that
>LTV talk is useful heuristic way to saying that there's exploitation. But
we
>can say that without LTV talk, that is, without denying that there
Rakesh: (for example, I
have re-read Perlo and Fichtenbaum whom you do not in fact
understand, so in your case it first has to be a matter of reading
the very theorists whom you think you are defending).
CB: So, do you think that Perlo and Fichtenbaum agree with you , you ethical c
Who Benefits From War?
When George II (or is it III?) was enthroned in the
White House by the Gang of Five of the Supreme Court, as a kind
of American Emperor, a thought came to mind, chillingly: There
will be a war. It came with such a clarity that it was surprising.
WHY WE ARE NOT MAKING DEMANDS OF THE WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM
Anti-Capitalist Convergence - New York City
Some might find it strange that the ACC is not making any demands of the
politicians, bankers and CEOs gathering for the World Economic Forum in
New York.
What, precisely, are we protesting, th
Historical Materialism
by Justin Schwartz
01 February 2002 03:05 UTC
I have defended that formulation in What's Wrong with Exploitation?, Nous
1995, availabkle on the net in the old marxism spoons archive. However, I
argued that it did not require the labor theory of value in Marx's canoni
http://www.economist.com/World/la/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=954692
>--- Original Message ---
>From: Karl Carlile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: Communism List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: 2/1/02 10:01:22 AM
>
>Is it true that Castro has said that if any of the prisoners
escape they
>will be handed back
Can you please tell me the source of this?
Ellen Frank
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>Friends,
>
>I cannot help but share this monumental work of political economy
>as well as history with my fellow Penners.
>
>Best,
>Sabri
>
> > Marx seemed to try to avoid moralism in Capital, but sometimes
>he let his
> > moral outrage creep in even though that violated his
>methodological
> > principles.
Yes and no. Marx has a certain official critique id all morality as
ideology. He also hasa certain moral relativism, actuall
> Marx seemed to try to avoid moralism in Capital, but sometimes
he let his
> moral outrage creep in even though that violated his
methodological
> principles. I alway found his notion that capitalist were
merely the
> charactermasks of capital very attractive. Very much like
Bertold Brecht,
> h
This is partial; I actually do have have wage labor to perfoem here.
>let's be clear that even Roemer is ultimately
>interested in the appropriation of labor by one class of another.
>
At least5 he used to be. Though he'dsay he was interested in unjust
inequality between the classes.
>
I said
Hi Justin:
> I think that the distinction is valid and it is a very serious flaw
>in Roemer's critique of Marxian exploitation theory that he misses
>the significancxe of it.
OK, good.
> That is something quite independent of Roemer's positive theory of
>exploitation, the possibility of
Marx seemed to try to avoid moralism in Capital, but sometimes he let his
moral outrage creep in even though that violated his methodological
principles. I alway found his notion that capitalist were merely the
charactermasks of capital very attractive. Very much like Bertold Brecht,
he felt tha
Is it true that Castro has said that if any of the prisoners escape they
will be handed back to the US by him?
Regards
Karl Carlile (Communist Global Group)
Be free to join our communism mailing list
at http://homepage.eircom.net/~kampf/
Bush asks Daschle to limit Sept. 11 probes
January 29, 2002 Posted: 9:26 PM EST (0226 GMT)
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush personally asked Senate Majority
Leader Tom Daschle Tuesday to limit the congressional investigation into
the events of September 11, congressional and White House source
>
>But the argument that workers contribute more to the value of output
>than they receive in compensation does not necessarily imply that
>either:
>
>a) labor is the only source of value
>
>or
>
>b) that workers are entitled morally to a wage equal to the value of
>their contribution
>
>right?
The Onion, 1/30/2002
Judge Orders God To Break Up Into Smaller Deities
WASHINGTON, DC-Calling the theological giant's stranglehold on the religion
industry "blatantly anti-competitive," a U.S. district judge ruled Monday
that God is in violation of anti-monopoly laws and ordered Him to be broken
Justin Schwartz writes:
>>This confused. First of all, Marx adamantlt, savagely, and ruthlessly
rejects egalitarianism and any appeal to to principles of justice. He is not
an egalitarian. He also rejects justice as "shit." He mocks those who
proceed from moralism to economics.<<
Carl writes: > A
>From: "Justin Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>This confused. First of all, Marx adamantlt, savagely, and ruthlessly
>rejects egalitarianism and any appeal to to principles of justice. He is
>not
>an egalitarian. He also rejects justice as "shit." He mocks those who
>proceed from moralism to eco
Jks writes:
>I don't want to get into this in great detail, but here's the short
>version.
>What's called the LTV has two meanings. The lose meaning, intended by
most
>people, is the vulgar version, that labor is the only source of value,
>which
>Marx accepts, but not in the sense used by most
>From: Alan Cibils <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [PEN-L:22155] Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Re: Re: query: Historical
>Materialism
>Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:54:07 -0400
>
>
>>This I take up in another paper, In defense of Exploittaion, Econ & Phil
>
"Rational Choice Marxism" edited by Terrell Carver & Paul Thomas.
Jargon free, very clear.
- Original Message -
From: "Max Sawicky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 7:51 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:22150] RE: Re: Re: query: Historical Materialism
What'
>This I take up in another paper, In defense of Exploittaion, Econ & Phil
>1995, also available on the net in the old marxism spoons archive.
Could you provide the URL to your paper? I did a google search but it
didn't show up
Thanks,
Alan
__
>
>What's the best book for an introduction/overview/tour d'horizon of
>"analytical marxism"?
>One citation only, please.
>
>mbs
>
John Roemer, ed. Analytical Marxism (Cambs UP 1986). Good essays by Roemer,
Elster, Brenner, Allan Wood, Adam Pzrezworski, etc.
jks
_
>
>
> >Why? The question is, what work does this alleged quantity do? I agree
>that
>
> >LTV talk is useful heuristic way to saying that there's exploitation. But
>we
> >can say that without LTV talk, that is, without denying that there are
>other
> >sources of value than labor or that SNALT doe
> >
> >jks
> >
>
>Out of interest, what's wrong with the labour theory of value? Do the AMs
>have an alternative theory of value, or do you try to get along without
>one?
>Feel free to not answer if it would take more labour than is worth
>bothering
>with.
>
>cheers
>
>dd
>
>
I don't want to
>Why? The question is, what work does this alleged quantity do? I agree that
>LTV talk is useful heuristic way to saying that there's exploitation. But
we
>can say that without LTV talk, that is, without denying that there are
other
>sources of value than labor or that SNALT does not provide a
What's the best book for an introduction/overview/tour d'horizon of
"analytical marxism"?
One citation only, please.
mbs
>
> It's analytical Marxist. Most AMs, like me, do not believe that
> Marx's value
> theory is more than a heuristic, and think that the important and true
> insights in Marx
>
>I have had an extensive argument with someone influenced by Roemer,
>though he criticizes Roemer for not appreciating the distinction
>between labor power and labor. But I'll ask you a question: how do
>you understand the logic by which Marx discovered the distinction
>between labor power an
>From: Michael Pollak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>New York Times
>February 1, 2002
>
>Two, Three, Many?
>
>By PAUL KRUGMAN
>
>... When the public believes in magic, it's springtime for charlatans.
Which helps explain the popularity of Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings,
and the War on Terrorism.
Ca
New York Times
February 1, 2002
Two, Three, Many?
By PAUL KRUGMAN
H ere's a scary question: How many more Enrons are out there?
Even now the conventional wisdom is that Enron was uniquely crooked.
O.K., other companies have engaged in "aggressive accounting," the art
form formerly
Business Standard
Last updated 1630 Hrs IST, Friday, January 25, 2002
MetLife set to kick off China operations
Debjoy Sengupta in Kolkata
The US-based Metropolitan Life Insurance Company (MetLife) is all set to
commence its business in China as part of its expansion in Asia.
India is another c
> I do remember reading a particularly eloquent paper a few years back
> ('In Defence of Exploitation' I think it was called)
Oops - I see Justin has told you about it already.
Charles,
I do not know whether science has ethical implications but the
practice of science and rational argument depends on ethical
commitments--good faith attempts to understand the other side, to
consider and carefully engage counter-criticism before launching the
same criticism in the same
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