Craven, Jim wrote: > >From "Spirit and Reason: The Vine Deloria, Jr. Reader", Fulcrum Publishing, > Golden CO, 1999 > > "...In 1920 George Sibley, the Indian agent for the Osages, a tribe in the > Missouri region of the country, tried to convince Big Soldier, one of the > more influencial chiefs, of the benefits of the white man's way. After > enthusiastically describing the wonders of the white man's civilization, > Sibley waited expectantly for the old man's response. Big Soldier did not > disappoint him: > > ' I see and admire your manner of living, your good warm houses; your > extensive fields of > corn, your gardens, your cows, oxen, workhouses, wagons and a thousand > machines, that > I know not the use of. I see that you are able to clothe yourselves, > even from weeds and grass. > In short you can do almost what you choose. You whites possess the power > of subduing > almost every animal to your use. You are surrounded by slaves. > Everything about you is in > chains and you are slaves yourselves. I fear if I should exchange my > pursuits for yours, I > too should become a slave.' (Jedidiah Morse, A Report to the Secretary > of War on Indian Affairs (1822), p. 207 quoted in Vine Deloria Ibid. pp > 3-4) ______________ Is there a master-slave dialectics going on here? Please elaborate on this. ______ "Many centuries ago the Senecas had a revelation. Three sisters appeared and informed them that they wished to establish a relationship with the > people, the 'two-leggeds'. In return for the performance of certain > ceremonies that helped the sisters to thrive, they would become plants and > feed the people. Thus it was that the sisters' beans, corn and squash came > to the Iroquois. These sisters had to be planted together and harvested > together, and the Senecas complied with their wishes. The lands of the > Senecas were never exhausted because these plants, were also [part of and > formed] a sophisticated natural nitorgen cycle that kept the lands fertile > and productive. _______________ Now, the story of course is a good way to pass on the knowledge from generation to generation. But i wonder how did they come up with this knowledge? _____ > The white men came and planted only corn and wheat and very > shortly exhausted the soil. After exhausting scientific experiments, the > white man's scientists 'discovered' the nitrogen cycle and produced tons of > chemical fertilizer to replace the natural nitrogen. But recently we have > discovered that there are unpleasant by-products of commercial fertilizer > that may have an even worse effect on us than they do on the soil... ( p. > 12) > > For every scientific 'discovery', then, there may exist one or more > alternative ways of understanding natural processes. But we cannot know what > these alternatives are unless and until we begin to observe nature and > lsiten to its rhythms and reject the idea of articifially forcing nature to > tell us about herself. But science carelessly rejects alternative sources of > information in favor of the clear idea, an absurd abstraction if ever there > was one. Lacking a spiritual, social, or political dimension, it is > difficult to understand why Western peoples believe they are so clever. Any > damn fool can treat a living thing as if it were a machine and establish > conditions under which it is required to perform certain functions--all that > is required is a sufficient application of brute force. The result of brute > force is Slavery, and whereas Big Soldier, the Osage chief, could see this > dimension at once, George Sibley and his like have never been able to see > the consequences of their beliefs about the world. Reductionism is about the > least efficient way to garner knowledge." (p. 13) _______________ It is not just reductionism. I think the knowledge claims based on causality are essentially mechanical in nature, and thus are rooted in the desire for control. Most of the people on this list are also basically control oriented. They only think that the leverage of control is in the hands of "bad guys" and they are the "good guys" who should have the control. These issues I think are most serious ones that needs to be thought through and debated. But Michael discourages it. Cheers, ajit sinha > > > Jim Craven > > James Craven > Clark College, 1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd. > Vancouver, WA. 98663 > (360) 992-2283; Fax: (360) 992-2863 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~blkfoot5 > *My Employer Has No Association With My Private/Protected > Opinion*
