At 11:54 AM 07/11/2002 -0700, Gar wrote:
>The worse the better eh? Both from personal experience, and from my
>reading of history people are mostly likely to engage in either radical or
>revolutionary activity when they have hope - when they believe things can
>be better. I think you can find m
Gar:
>If it is the only thing maybe. But as part of a broader program of
>activism, how does it "miseducate"?
It tries to makes a connection between our ideas and what happened in
history. Against the "managerialism" of Lenin, Albert-Hahnel propose
participatory economics. Russia did not end up
>From: "Carl Remick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Ralph Waldo Emerson, ... criticizing the utopianism of Charles Fourier,
>said in part ...
Michael Perelman asked offlist about the source of that quote. It's from
Emerson's essay "Fourierism and the Socialists" -- text at
http://www.xmission.com/~se
>>
>
> I am sorry, Gar. This is not a question of activist credibility. This is
> not why I object to "Looking Forward". It is about how socialism can be
> achieved. I believe that it miseducates people to write elaborate models.
> Marxists focus on strategies for revolution, not how future
> pos
Gar wrote:
>I don't think it is "ahistorical" to deal with the limits of the
>possible. Most "utopian socialists" today are activists.
I am sorry, Gar. This is not a question of activist credibility. This is
not why I object to "Looking Forward". It is about how socialism can be
achieved. I bel
I don't think it is "ahistorical" to deal with the limits of the
possible. Most "utopian socialists" today are activists. And in fact, I
doubt that in the immediate issues, what we are fighting for today
Albert and Hahel, Justin, and Michael Perlman would find much to
disagree about. But if yo
>From: Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>In the first instance, with Morris, you are dealing with a genre of
>literature, namely the utopian novel. ... In the case of Hahnel-Albert, you
>are confronted with *utopianism*, a form of political advocacy that seeks
>ideal solutions to problems that
>Absolutely. And if the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose, I too
>as a devotely irreligious person can cite the bible's memorable comment on
>this topic: "Where there is no vision, the people perish." (Proverbs 29:18)
> Utopian visions can catalyze thought and action. They are n
>From: "Carl Remick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>I too as a devotely irreligious person can cite the bible ...
Er, make that "devoutly." Normally I don't follow up on spelling errors, but
since Louis Proyect seems to be setting a new, higher standard on this
score, I figured I should be punctilious
>From: "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Utopianism will always play a role in the socialist movement, because
>people
>need to have some idea of what they're fighting _for_, not just what
>they're
>fighting against.
Absolutely. And if the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose, I
Title: RE: [PEN-L:27895] Market socialism as a form of utopianism
Utopianism will always play a role in the socialist movement, because people need to have some idea of what they're fighting _for_, not just what they're fighting against. If people don't have some vision of a rational and moral
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