Ken Hanly wrote:
Politics beyond any type of reformism is necessary for the working class
to bring about socialism. On the other hand surely it is necessary to fight
back against attempts to savage social democratic reforms rather than do as
social democratic parties in Germany and
Ken Hanly wrote:
Politics beyond any type of reformism is necessary for the working class
to bring about socialism. On the other hand surely it is necessary to fight
back against attempts to savage social democratic reforms rather than do as
social democratic parties in Germany and
PROTECTED]
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:21439] Re: Re: Re: RE: Re: Re: Re:
social democracy
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This whole discussion about social democracy and marxist
economics disturbs me (disgusts me?) on two levels. First
In a recent message, Rakesh wrote that did you respond to the well known
empirical observation that crises are most often not overcome as a result of
stronger consumption and prices? (which he associates with social
democracy)
I doubt that that's a well-known empirical observation,
this is
We have a hard time making generalizations like this, because capitalism has not
faced many crises. How many would your count in the 20th century? I assume
that were not talking about recessions.
Devine, James wrote:
In a recent message, Rakesh wrote that did you respond to the well known
Date sent: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:06:39 -0500
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:21439] Re: Re: Re: RE: Re: Re: Re: social democracy
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This whole
Date sent: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:06:39 -0500
To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:21439] Re: Re: Re: RE: Re: Re: Re:
social democracy
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This whole discussion
:39 -0500
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From:Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:21439] Re: Re: Re: RE: Re: Re: Re:
social democracy
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This whole discussion about social democracy and marxist
economics
As everybody else on the list know, I am not joking. Why is it Jim,
Carrol, and, you add, Paul get into arguments with you? I think that
abrasiveness detracts from the exchanges. Give us your information, but
spare us your disputatious approach.
Thanks.
On Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 07:28:04PM
- Original Message -
From: Rakesh Bhandari [EMAIL PROTECTED]
No thanks, Kick me off the list anytime you want. I shall
continue to
respond in the style that I respond. I am not here to share
information as if I am an information processing machine
but to
discuss and debate and learn. I
Debating and learning are at the core of what we are trying to do.
Personal attacks get in the way.
No thanks, Kick me off the list anytime you want. I shall continue to
respond in the style that I respond. I am not here to share
information as if I am an information processing machine
Rakesh Bhandari wrote:
I agree with Jim. SD began in Sweden, for example, after a general
strike. After a while, business forgot its origins and only saw its
inconvenient side.
I agree with neither Jim nor Michael. The class struggle cannot now
force upon the capitalist class a social
The class struggle cannot now
force upon the capitalist class a social democratic regime that
neutralizes the growth in the rate of exploitation and allows for
the run up of public debt for the purposes of full employment. Such
a social democratic regime would not only not weaken crisis
Devine, James wrote:
Also, I don't think anyone claimed that social democracy abolished the
exploitation of labor or even reduced its degree. (I understand that
businesses under Swedish social democracy did rather well in terms of
profits, or at least that the big ones did. Doug would probably
Another Swedish question. Doesn't Sweden have one of the most
concentrated industrial structures in the world?
On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 04:20:44PM -0500, Doug Henwood wrote:
Devine, James wrote:
Also, I don't think anyone claimed that social democracy abolished the
exploitation of labor or
Michael Perelman wrote:
Another Swedish question. Doesn't Sweden have one of the most
concentrated industrial structures in the world?
Yup, think it does. The Wallenberg family's Investor trust controls
some enormous portion of Swedish industry. Such structures are good
for social democracy;
In a message dated 12/18/1998 9:26:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On the plus side we have a somewhat smaller set of countries spending a
generation or two under the rule of Communist regimes of varying
quality--from Pol Pot or Mao or Kim Il Sung at the bottom end to
--=_312582744==_.ALT
At 07:06 PM 12/18/98 -0800, you wrote:
But Brad de Long (the resident Big Name neoclassical) pursues a strategy
that defeats my efforts here. Instead of addressing my response to his
abstract wish that social democracy would prevail (despite the
Brad,
Well, I've already granted that Scandinavian social
democracies were more liberal democratic than Tito's
Yugoslavia, which was a one-party state after all.
However, despite Tito's despotism, it was clearly the most
politically and civilly liberal of any of the "communist"
states.
I would add that worker-owned firms don't require an external reserve army
of labor in order to motivate people to work under conditions of workplace
authoritarianism, the way capitalist firms do.
Barkley writes:
This story about worker-managed firms not hiring is at
least partly one of
Jim Devine wrote:
I would add that worker-owned firms don't require an external reserve army
of labor in order to motivate people to work under conditions of workplace
authoritarianism, the way capitalist firms do.
No, but they have an incentive not to hire, to avoid diluting profits,
don't
. . .
There is the problem that successful worker-managed firms tend to want to
not hire new workers . . .
This is well-taken, but you have to admit that on the
scale of grand systemic problems, it does not rank too
high. The state can essay macro and micro remedies
for this. We're a long
Brad writes:
feeling that we today owe a pretty big debt to Harry S Truman...
Mccarthysim? NSC 68 and it's legacy? Nope; I don't buy it.
Tom Kruse
Casilla 5812 / Cochabamba, Bolivia
Tel/Fax: (591-4) 248242
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
thanks. Too bad it fell on Brad's deaf ears.
At 09:05 AM 12/18/98 EST, you wrote:
Good post on social democracy, Jim
-Paul Meyer
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://clawww.lmu.edu/Faculty/JDevine/jdevine.html
Why shouldn't Hiroshima be a war crime? Because it was supposed to scare the
Soviets? After all, the U.S. knew that the Japanese were trying to surrender.
Brad De Long wrote:
I said that Hiroshima was a big mistake.
I don't *think* it should be classified as a war crime (although perhaps
At 07:46 AM 12/18/98 -0800, you wrote:
thanks. Too bad it fell on Brad's deaf ears.
Well, Brad acts pretty much like one of those arrogant ivory tower
intellectuals populating this and other countries' academic institutions --
they are just incapable of critical reasoning. All they can do is
Brad,
OK, for the umpteenth time I am going to point
something out to you to which you have never responded.
What about Slovenia and worker-managed market
socialism? Taking a look at where it started from in 1945,
the record is pretty good and although not as liberal of a
democracy as
Brad,
OK, for the umpteenth time I am going to point
something out to you to which you have never responded.
What about Slovenia and worker-managed market
socialism? Taking a look at where it started from in 1945,
the record is pretty good and although not as liberal of a
democracy
Brad De Long wrote:
I think Truman made a lot of big mistakes (Hiroshima among them), but did a
lot more things right.
Mistake? Killing a couple of hundred thousand people to send the Soviets a
message was just an itsy-bitsy error? Can that kind of reasoning get you a
Harvard PhD?
Doug
I said
Brad De Long wrote:
I think Truman made a lot of big mistakes (Hiroshima among them), but did a
lot more things right.
Mistake? Killing a couple of hundred thousand people to send the Soviets a
message was just an itsy-bitsy error? Can that kind of reasoning get you a
Harvard PhD?
Doug
Whether or not Truman was acting as a pawn of the aircraft industry it is
fairly
clear that Truman misinterpreted Soviet intentions in Korea. Indeed, the
entire conception of the Cold War affected by "Last War Syndrome", the
tendency
for American policy makers to see the world through the lens of
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