I don't know where Nathan Newman gets his Canadian political
information from, but his post exhibits a great ignorance of
Canadian politics, history and immigration experience.
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to try to educate him
at this time but perhaps some time in the future
Paul Phi
In a message dated 98-04-15 11:00:37 EDT, you write:
<< t has struck me somewhat odd in this exchange that nobody
has mentioned Canada which shares a more European political
system with the American geographical-class structure.
I >>
Well, the American system is really unique. As far as I
-Original Message-
From: PJM0930 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Well, the American system is really unique. As far as I know
>Canada's fits into the international data which correlates
>strength of the Left with proportionality in the electoral system.
At 09:54 AM 4/15/98 -0500, Paul Phillips wrote:
>It has struck me somewhat odd in this exchange that nobody
>has mentioned Canada which shares a more European political
>system with the American geographical-class structure.
---snip
I have to confess ignorance of the Canadian politics; apologi
It has struck me somewhat odd in this exchange that nobody
has mentioned Canada which shares a more European political
system with the American geographical-class structure.
I would suggest that the continued existence of a viable
social democratic party and its regional electoral success
at the
WS:
<<
As I see it, you are arguing for a strong 'institutional path depenedency'
- or the proposition that past institutional arrangements, rules of the
game, expectations etc. have a profoound influence on current (and future)
politics.
>>
A very concise summing up, thanks. I agree with
-- LONG ---
At 07:54 PM 4/13/98 -0400, Paul Meyer wrote:
>Have to strongly disagree here. The structural features which
>are generally agreed to have created the "two/no party system" that the US
>currently
>enjoys, are largely specified in the Constitution (division of powers, a
>strong ex
Warning: LONG POST
In a message dated 98-04-13 10:18:26 EDT, you write:
<<
W.S wrote:
While your description of the US electoral politics is accurate (esp. in
that DP and GOP are loose coalitions rather than parties) -- your causal
logic seems to be flawed. No doubt, the electoral system sh
Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:
>Jim Devine's argument that the property relations in the US --
where most
>people were small time owners (as opposed to Europe)
Actually, this is wrong for UK anyway. As now, then too the UK
was ahead of everyone except the US.
In England, the number of small (yeoman,
At 07:35 PM 4/13/98 +0100, Mark Jones wrote:
>Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:
>>Jim Devine's argument that the property relations in the US --
>where most
>>people were small time owners (as opposed to Europe)
>
> Actually, this is wrong for UK anyway. As now, then too the UK
>was ahead of everyone exce
At 07:35 PM 4/13/98 +0100, you wrote:
Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:
>>Jim Devine's argument that the property relations in the US -- where most
people were small time owners (as opposed to Europe) <<
Mark Jones replies: > Actually, this is wrong for UK anyway. As now, then
too the UK was ahead of ever
At 08:21 AM 4/13/98 -0700, Nathan Newman wrote:
>Let's also be clear. Capital in the US was concentrated early and
militantly,
>from textiles and shipping, railroads and plantations, and then in banks, oil
>and steel trusts. By the emergence of mass working class unions and
politics in
>the late
At 12:13 PM 4/11/98 +, Max Sawicky wrote:
>
>An abiding feature of U.S. politics cutting
>against the grain of class is SECTIONAL rivalry,
>which rivalry was obviously due in great part to
>slavery and the disparate economies implied by
>the rural South versus the industrial North. So
>r
At 09:36 AM 4/11/98 -0400, you wrote:
>The answer as to why class politics did not emerge in the US with
>an electoral manifestaion as opposed to
>Europe is SIMPLE. (Skocpol's analysis is so beside the point it is
>embarassing.) It is the difference in the electoral systems.
While your descrip
-Original Message-
From: Wojtek Sokolowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Jim Devine's argument that the property relations in the US -- where most
>people were small time owners (as opposed to Europe) provides an important
>insight. We can stretch that ar
In a message dated 98-04-11 13:02:25 EDT, you write:
<< > The answer as to why class politics did not emerge in the US with
> an electoral manifestaion as opposed to
> Europe is SIMPLE. (Skocpol's analysis is so beside the point it is
I think this is a good point, though your
confidence i
.. . .
> Fine, anyone who has ever spent a month in Europe can dig PJ's meaning,
> but so what? If our guardian angel waved her remote tuner and magically
> produced a parliamentary system, given the nutbar of obsessions stalking
> our fractured so-called society there would be more single-issu
> The answer as to why class politics did not emerge in the US with
> an electoral manifestaion as opposed to
> Europe is SIMPLE. (Skocpol's analysis is so beside the point it is
I think this is a good point, though your
confidence in its veracity is a little
breath-taking. I would note that
>From Jim D. (no slouch himself in the word-count
department),
> Max writes: >I'd say what caused it to break down was, among otherthings,
> that the Democrats promoted the interests of blacks without due attention
> to working class interests in general.<
>
> Do you have any evidence of this?
> . . .
> Agreed, California might be more ethnically diverse than any other state in
> the US, but that does not explain why class politics did not develop in,
> say, Massachussetts, Wisconsin or Kentucky. The point I am making is that
> while the US as a whole migh be diverse, individual reg
PJM writes:
> The answer as to why class politics did not emerge in the US with
> an electoral manifestation as opposed to
> Europe is SIMPLE. (Skocpol's analysis is so beside the point it is
> embarrassing.) It is the difference in the electoral systems.
He then proceeds with a cogent explanat
The answer as to why class politics did not emerge in the US with
an electoral manifestaion as opposed to
Europe is SIMPLE. (Skocpol's analysis is so beside the point it is
embarassing.) It is the difference in the electoral systems.
Ideological political parties are produced by electoral syste
Max writes: >I'd say what caused it to break down was, among otherthings,
that the Democrats promoted the interests of blacks without due attention
to working class interests in general.<
Do you have any evidence of this? It's pretty clear the Dems (like the
GOPs) have never responded too "
Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:>> 2. It is not ethnic diversity that
differentiates European and American politics, or at least it is not a main
factor; Theda Skocpol ... argues that there were two factors that cut
across class lines in the US that were absent in Europe; universal male
suffrage, and the
At 11:57 AM 4/10/98 -0700, Nathan Newman wrote:
>Um...where do you live?
Baltimore. And it's pretty White slash Black (or vice versa) here.
But more seriously, I think you fall prey to two misconceptions: comparing
a sub-continent (the US) to much smaller European nationa states, and by
ignorin
Louis Proyect wrote:
> >Racism was a bigger factor in disrupting class politics in the US, because
> race
> >has been a more important issue, from slavery to immigration.
> >
> >--Nathan
>
> Actually, it was the Democratic Party that drove the wedge between black
> and white workers in the 19th c
>Racism was a bigger factor in disrupting class politics in the US, because
race
>has been a more important issue, from slavery to immigration.
>
>--Nathan
Actually, it was the Democratic Party that drove the wedge between black
and white workers in the 19th century. Check David Roediger's "Wages
At 01:06 PM 4/10/98 -0400, Max Sawicky wrote:
>> 1. To portray Europe as ethnically and culturally homogenous is simply
>> incorrect: there has always been religious and ethnic diversity comparable
>> to that in the US; migratory labor was always present in Europe (especially
>> Germany and France
W.,
I knew you'd have something enlightening to
say about this.
MBS
Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:
> Two quick points:
>
> 1. To portray Europe as ethnically and culturally homogenous is simply
> incorrect: there has always been religious and ethnic diversity comparable
> to that in the US; migrato
At 12:06 PM 4/10/98 -0400, Max Sawicky wrote:
>Nathan Newman wrote:
>
>> The social safety net is obviously stronger in Europe but that is a lot
easier
>> to maintain when you pull up the barricades against poorer, browner
immigrants.
>> While I respect the success of European social democracy, it
From: Wojtek Sokolowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>If anything, of course, it would be a relative difference,that mattered,
not an
>absolute one.
-Could be. But if you consider that the 'ethnic diveristy' in the Us
-actually boils down to White - slash - Blac
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