tizens :-)
Ian
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Peter Dorman
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 12:01 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [PEN-L:5114] Re: RE: Re: global warming talks failure
>
>
> If I understan
PEN-L:5116] Re: global warming talks failure
>Barkley - It is, of course, depressing how awful the
>entire US political establishment has been on this issue.
>But there is one thing I think we need to be clear on.
>Emissions from highway transportation constitute
>less than 20% of US
: Re: global warming talks failure
>If I understand this, you are frontloading the political hassle by building
the
>progressive tightening of the standard into the initial regulation. If the
>political juice is there, that's always a good thing to do...
>
>Lisa & Ian Murra
Maybe this is the time to vent an idea I've been carrying around...
The Kyoto negotiations are an example of global quasi-governance processes that
are proceeding fitfully but are absolutely essential to our future. I would add
third world debt-reduction to this list, also global labor standards
Barkley - It is, of course, depressing how awful the
entire US political establishment has been on this issue.
But there is one thing I think we need to be clear on.
Emissions from highway transportation constitute
less than 20% of US CO2 emissions - and much of that
is from trucks, not passenge
If I understand this, you are frontloading the political hassle by building the
progressive tightening of the standard into the initial regulation. If the
political juice is there, that's always a good thing to do...
Lisa & Ian Murray wrote:
> If we set
> stringent targets that do as you say, h
er 29, 2000 9:41 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:5093] Re: global warming talks failure
>I have hesitated to involve myself in this conversation,
>because I was still uncertain about what went on at
>the Hague. What I now understand from people who
>were there, is that the US negotiators arrive
At 01:30 PM 11/29/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Max,
>Heck, I'll take both you and Peter, and
>maybe even the irascible Devine One up
>on that, :-).
start pouring...
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
IL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 7:54 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:5070] Re: Re: global warming talks failure
>My hunch is that no one else on pen-l cares about this other than you or I,
>Barkley. We can take it up over a drink in New Orleans. Enough drinks and
I'm
>sure
:5071] RE: Re: Re: global warming talks failure
>One or two should do it.
>
>mbs
>
>
>My hunch is that no one else on pen-l cares about this other than you or I,
>Barkley. We can take it up over a drink in New Orleans. Enough drinks and
>I'm sure you'll see it my way.
>Peter
>
>
Brad DeLong wrote:
>Pray for cleaner technology and raise the CAFE standards!
has praying ever done any good?
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
>A lot of lefties want to blame evil corporations for global warming,
>and while they're no angels, the real solution would mean profound
>changes in everyday life for almost all of us. How do we get there?
>
>Doug
Not by ignoring the problem. Not by having the Vice President show up
at lots of
>Eugene Coyle wrote:
>
>>I agree with Barkley that this is a frightening and urgent problem. My
>>take is that Gore and Clinton haven't had and don't have a serious
>>intention of doing anything about it, posture as Gore will.
>
>Well, it'd require massive changes in U.S. life just to get back to
I have hesitated to involve myself in this conversation,
because I was still uncertain about what went on at
the Hague. What I now understand from people who
were there, is that the US negotiators arrived with the
proposal that 60 percent of the US emission reduction
called for under the Kyoto p
PD>>
> The problem is that it transfers to the state the cost of
> reducing the target.
> At the margin, this is the same as the sort of "takings"
> compensation the Right
> demands and was passed by initiative in Oregon this fall. It is
> as if polluters
> had the right to pollute and we, the po
The center of the scan is to go to a failed Ukranian or Russian business, which
used to burn coal and buy their pollution rights. Or claim that a generator
that uses natural gas is reducing CO2 by not using coal.
Lisa & Ian Murray wrote:
> Jr.>>
> > Peter,
> > Thanks for the reference.
>
Lisa & Ian Murray wrote:
>
> What if, once a firm lowers it's "share" of the pollutant and then sells it
> off to the state --allow the state to be a buyer -- rather than another
> firm, the size of the pieces [number of credits available to buy and sell]
> of the ceiling are lowered thus raising
Jr.>>
> Peter,
> Thanks for the reference.
> There is nothing stopping
> a firm that owns the right to emit a certain amount of a
> given pollutant to emit less. But it cannot emit more.
> Ceiling implies a maximum above which one cannot
> go. A floor is a minimum below which one can
One or two should do it.
mbs
My hunch is that no one else on pen-l cares about this other than you or I,
Barkley. We can take it up over a drink in New Orleans. Enough drinks and
I'm sure you'll see it my way.
Peter
below them. Thus, they are both ceilings
> and not floors, at least in principle, even if they are
> violated in practice, which is possible for both.
> Barkley Rosser
> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Dorman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] &l
ich is possible for both.
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Peter Dorman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 3:42 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:5061] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: global warming talks failure
>"J. Barkley Ro
input from a global planner would sure be useful.
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Rob Schaap <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 11:33 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:5048] Re: Re: global warming talks failure
>G
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote:
> Peter,
> Thanks for the reference.
> There is nothing stopping
> a firm that owns the right to emit a certain amount of a
> given pollutant to emit less.
No, but under a tradeable system the underpolluting firm sells its excess to
another firm that "
levels. Talk about catastrophic
insurance!
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000 9:07 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:5032] Re: global warming talks failure
>From a column by
yet.
But, make no mistake, this is a lot more
serious than most stuff going on out there.
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Doug Henwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000 8:24 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:5030] Re: Re: g
lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000 6:17 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:5026] Re: Re: Re: global warming talks failure
>Under traditional regulation, each polluter is supposed to limit pollution
to
>some specified level. Some may find it feasible to cut pollution even
more,
>so th
Jim Devine wrote:
> Mike Lebowitz's book, BEYOND CAPITAL, deals with these issues of Marx's
> deterministic vision.
While they have somewhat different agendas, and clash on some issues,
Wood, Foster, and Harvey are all very good on the mixture of deterministic
and non-deterministic elements in
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/28/00 11:48AM >>>
Mike Lebowitz's book, BEYOND CAPITAL, deals with these issues of Marx's
deterministic vision. In a nutshell, Marx deliberately minimized the role
of the self-organization working class in CAPITAL, in order to focus on the
contradictory dynamics of ca
Mike Lebowitz's book, BEYOND CAPITAL, deals with these issues of Marx's
deterministic vision. In a nutshell, Marx deliberately minimized the role
of the self-organization working class in CAPITAL, in order to focus on the
contradictory dynamics of capital, which create conditions in which
work
G'day Paul,
About Jordan Wheeler's column, "Until environment affects profits, it won't
be fixed" ...
Beaut stuff, but problematic at a very profound level, I reckon. I think
people of Marxian bent inherit from Das Kapital and its clerics an
unconsciously impotent view of the world, by which I
G'day Doug,
>Louis Proyect wrote:
>
>>Actually most people value peace and health more than shopping at the
malls
>>and cancer. That is the reason drug use and prozac is so widespread in the
>>USA. Beneath the "good life" there is a profound feeling of despair.
>
>...but which can't get articulat
Louis Proyect wrote:
>Actually most people value peace and health more than shopping at the malls
>and cancer. That is the reason drug use and prozac is so widespread in the
>USA. Beneath the "good life" there is a profound feeling of despair.
...but which can't get articulated as despair. If I
>From a column by Jordan Wheeler, a Cree Indian columnist with
the Winnipeg Free Press, November 26, 2000.
"Until environment affects profits, it won't be fixed"
When I was a kid I knew an old woman who remembered life in the
late 1800s. She once sat on the prairie with her grandmother as a
>A lot of lefties want to blame evil corporations for global warming,
>and while they're no angels, the real solution would mean profound
>changes in everyday life for almost all of us. How do we get there?
>
>Doug
Actually most people value peace and health more than shopping at the malls
and
Eugene Coyle wrote:
>I agree with Barkley that this is a frightening and urgent problem. My
>take is that Gore and Clinton haven't had and don't have a serious
>intention of doing anything about it, posture as Gore will.
Well, it'd require massive changes in U.S. life just to get back to
1990
There are a number of ways that there is a positive feedback from global
temperature increases. "Positive" here is like getting a positive
result on your HIV test.
The most ominous of these multiple feedback possibilities, to me, is
the melting of the permafrost. Permafrost is a carbon sink
It might be just worth noting the big nonlinearity
in the system that I do not think is taken account of
in the big IPCC model. That model has gone through
a lot of revisions, some of them a few years ago leading
to a lowering of the forecast of temperature increase.
That one was due to addi
Under traditional regulation, each polluter is supposed to limit pollution to
some specified level. Some may find it feasible to cut pollution even more,
so that the overall target (permitted pollution level times number of
activities) serves as a ceiling. Under tradeable permits, all such gaps
Peter Dorman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000 4:36 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:5021] Re: global warming talks failure
>1. My understanding is that the US did indeed demand that it be given
>credit for existing forests as carbo
: Monday, November 27, 2000 4:16 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:5019] RE: global warming talks failure
>Jr.>>
> I find it curious that there is nearly zero
> discussion of what is to me the biggest news
> event of the moment, the failure of the global
> warming talks in The Hague. Michael
1. My understanding is that the US did indeed demand that it be given
credit for existing forests as carbon sinks. This is truly scandalous.
2. The first market-based system I am aware of is the Japanese coastal
management regime, in which polluters must pay fishing cooperatives for
the right to
Jr.>>
I find it curious that there is nearly zero
discussion of what is to me the biggest news
event of the moment, the failure of the global
warming talks in The Hague. Michael P. and
I have batted it about a bit, but that has been it.
*
One question I have is whether success woul
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/27/00 12:59PM >>>
Finally, I fear that this may be one of the more serious
outcomes of Bush's increasingly likely victory in the US election.
What I hear from people I know at the CEA is that indeed Gore
has been behind virtually all pro-environment moves by the
a
I find it curious that there is nearly zero
discussion of what is to me the biggest news
event of the moment, the failure of the global
warming talks in The Hague. Michael P. and
I have batted it about a bit, but that has been it.
Part of it may be that it never had much
publicity i
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