kashmir and india (was Re: India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't)
Chris Doss wrote: --- ravi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: nothing unites like hate. and for that there is pakistan and/or muslims. the common language i share with my indian spouse is english. but not to worry with respect to commonality... advice from some relatives/acquaintances on both sides struck a common chord: marry someone soon, but just don't marry a muslim! even one of the those american boys/girls is ok... /facetious -- There must be more of a unifying Indian identity than just shared hatred of Muslims and Pakistan. Wasn't there a kind of pan-Indian nationalism that manifested itself during the struggle for independence? i am not anywhere close to an authority, but i would answer in the affirmative. national identity is cultivated using similar means as in the US: reciting pledges at schools, sporting national teams and propogating the legend of patriotism, while leaving plenty of room for existing sectarian differences (religion, caste, region, language, etc) to express themselves. How do non-Kashmiri Indian Muslims view the Kashmir issue? Is it seen in religious terms? they probably do, now, given the sharp hindu-muslim divide (witnessed by the successful rise of the BJP, the user-friendly front of hindu extremism). purely based on anecdotal data, i would also add that it would be difficult to ascertain the true views of muslims in india, who are cowed into a pro-india position through false logic (such as comparisons between india and pakistan) and challenges (it was perfectly within bounds for my anglophile uncles to support the australian cricket team against india, but rumours of muslim support for the pakistani cricket team were/are maintained and brought out to question the 'loyalty' of indian muslims). --ravi
Re: India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't
--- ravi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: nothing unites like hate. and for that there is pakistan and/or muslims. the common language i share with my indian spouse is english. but not to worry with respect to commonality... advice from some relatives/acquaintances on both sides struck a common chord: marry someone soon, but just don't marry a muslim! even one of the those american boys/girls is ok... /facetious -- There must be more of a unifying Indian identity than just shared hatred of Muslims and Pakistan. Wasn't there a kind of pan-Indian nationalism that manifested itself during the struggle for independence? How do non-Kashmiri Indian Muslims view the Kashmir issue? Is it seen in religious terms? Russian Muslims (20% of the population) do not see Chechnya in religious terms (except insofar as they view Wahabbis as being false Muslims). __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't
Anthony D'Costa wrote: There are two main national languages: Hindi and English. A good number of people don't speak either. But they tend to be from rural areas from the non-Hindi belt. my experience differs somewhat from this assessment. i am from madras which is definitely from the non-hindi belt, but is hardly rural. the number of people who speak hindi in madras (or at least used to, when i lived there 15 years ago) is/was restricted to the north indian population and children from the privileged class, enrolled in central board schools, who are forced to learn the language as part of the curriculum. and even that is a stretch... i studied in such a school myself and graduated without even a passing knowledge of the language. not one person in my vast array of relatives (in the region) can speak hindi and these are people from the middle or upper classes. with the advent of popular hindi television, some of this may have changed, though that process of subtle imposition of the language (starting with the national programming in the 80s) had itself been subverted in the 90s through the dubbing of such programmes in regional languages. we may not see a repeat of the fiery demonstrations that madras witnessed a few decades ago, against the imposition of hindi by the centre, but it may be a safe bet to suggest that the majority of the people from the region may prefer english over hindi, if a common language is to be enforced. the other regions of southern india (karnataka and andhra pradesh in particular) may not have a history of such militant opposition to hindi. --ravi
Re: India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't
Chris Doss wrote: Given that knowledge of English is so low and the absence of a national language (I guess), what is the lingua franca in India? I mean, is there any language that people anywhere in India would be able to communicate in (like Russian in the fSU)? Without that, I imagine it would be very difficult to have a united country. facetious nothing unites like hate. and for that there is pakistan and/or muslims. the common language i share with my indian spouse is english. but not to worry with respect to commonality... advice from some relatives/acquaintances on both sides struck a common chord: marry someone soon, but just don't marry a muslim! even one of the those american boys/girls is ok... /facetious --ravi
Re: India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't
There are two main national languages: Hindi and English. A good number of people don't speak either. But they tend to be from rural areas from the non-Hindi belt. But Hindi is spoken by more people than English and would easily run into several hundred millions. Even 4% of Indians speaking English is over 40 million. So a national language for unity is I think a bogeyman. In fact linguistic problems are less important than ethnic identity, although the latter incorporates the language component sometimes. xxx Anthony P. D'Costa, Professor Comparative International Development South Asian and International Studies Programs University of WashingtonCampus Box 358436 1900 Commerce Street Tacoma, WA 98402, USA Phone: (253) 692-4462 Fax : (253) 692-5718 xxx On Sat, 24 Jul 2004, Chris Doss wrote: --- Anthony D'Costa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is hard to estimate but the numbers that float around, are 3-4% of the population, which is not a small number by any means. English has been both a uniting factor (in a national sense) but also one that sets the rural-urban and class divide more forcefully. --- Given that knowledge of English is so low and the absence of a national language (I guess), what is the lingua franca in India? I mean, is there any language that people anywhere in India would be able to communicate in (like Russian in the fSU)? Without that, I imagine it would be very difficult to have a united country. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't
--- Anthony D'Costa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is hard to estimate but the numbers that float around, are 3-4% of the population, which is not a small number by any means. English has been both a uniting factor (in a national sense) but also one that sets the rural-urban and class divide more forcefully. --- Given that knowledge of English is so low and the absence of a national language (I guess), what is the lingua franca in India? I mean, is there any language that people anywhere in India would be able to communicate in (like Russian in the fSU)? Without that, I imagine it would be very difficult to have a united country. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't
Anthony D'Costa wrote: There are other splits, which have been better handled, for example language. Thus far 20 languages or so have been recognized by the government. How widely used is English? Doug
Re: India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't
Anthony D'Costa wrote: The Hindu-Muslim divide is India's least problematic cultural divide. Hindu-Muslim divide has the potential to threaten India's unity and democratic structure. Caste divide does not have that potential. The Indian government has generally handled demands for autonomy reasonably well, if keeping the states within the Indian union is a criterion for managing splits well. Yes, we could compare India with the fSU, Yugoslavia and Pakistan. Ulhas Yahoo! India Careers: Over 65,000 jobs online Go to: http://yahoo.naukri.com/
Re: India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't
This is hard to estimate but the numbers that float around, are 3-4% of the population, which is not a small number by any means. English has been both a uniting factor (in a national sense) but also one that sets the rural-urban and class divide more forcefully. Indians want their children to go to English medium schools, irrespective of social, regional, religious, class background. But few can afford to and not all are good in terms of substance. But there is severe competitition severe from the demand side. The CPM (Communist Party of India (Marxist) in West Bengal, which has ruled the state for nearly quarter century, initially did away with teaching English in government schools. It was a bad decision from the very beginning, which made the students, who were otherwise very bright, disadvantaged compared to those with English abilities. They rescinded that policy not too long ago. But speaking English in India does not necessarily translate into being more westernized. It is one of several languages that Indians come to learn. cheers, anthony xxx Anthony P. D'Costa, Associate Professor Comparative International Development University of WashingtonCampus Box 358436 1900 Commerce Street Tacoma, WA 98402, USA Phone: (253) 692-4462 Fax : (253) 692-5718 xxx On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Doug Henwood wrote: Anthony D'Costa wrote: There are other splits, which have been better handled, for example language. Thus far 20 languages or so have been recognized by the government. How widely used is English? Doug
India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't
The Financial ExpressFriday, July 16, 2004HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn'tOUR POLICY BUREAUPosted online: Friday, July 16, 2004 at 0103 hours ISTNEW DELHI, JULY 15: India's human development index (HDI) has shown asteady improvement in the last couple of years. India's ranking, however, at127 out of 177 countries remains the same as in the previous year. The challenge before India, according to the UNDP's Human Development Index2004, is to manage cultural diversity. This assumes significance as thecountry, despite its long secular tradition, has experienced considerablecommunal violence in the last one decade.According to the report, which was released by Union minister forinformation, broadcasting and culture S Jaipal Reddy on Thursday, Malaysia,China, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and Vietnam rank above India. The countrieswhich are ranked below India are Myanmar, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Nepal andPakistan.India's HDI has consistently gone up from 0.411 in 1975 to 0.595 in 2002.The HDI was 0.579 in 2000. The HDI, it may be mentioned, is an index whichfocuses on three measurable dimensions of human development - living a longand healthy life, being educated and having a decent standard of living. Theindex combines measures of life expectancy, school enrollment, literacy andincome to allow a broader view of a country's development.The 2002 report, which focuses on "Cultural liberty in today's world",recognises India's vibrant multi-cultural ethos based on a strong andcomposite policy framework that promotes democracy and diversity. The report, UNDP resident representative Maxine Olson said, "salutes India forits multi-cultural facet." In India there is space for state identity whilemaintaining a strong Central focus simultaneously, she added.Terming the HDI 2004 a monumental contribution, Mr Reddy said that culturalliberty was important not only for peace and progress but also for thesurvival of mankind. "We must all learn to live together, and celebrate diversity," the minister added.© 2004: Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd. All rights reservedthroughout the world. Yahoo! India Careers: Over 65,000 jobs online.
Re: India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't
To what extent has India managed to handle it diversity other than the Hindu/Muslim split? -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't
The Financial ExpressFriday, July 16, 2004HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn'tOUR POLICY BUREAUPosted online: Friday, July 16, 2004 at 0103 hours ISTNEW DELHI, JULY 15: India's human development index (HDI) has shown asteady improvement in the last couple of years. India's ranking, however, at127 out of 177 countries remains the same as in the previous year. The challenge before India, according to the UNDP's Human Development Index2004, is to manage cultural diversity. This assumes significance as thecountry, despite its long secular tradition, has experienced considerablecommunal violence in the last one decade.According to the report, which was released by Union minister forinformation, broadcasting and culture S Jaipal Reddy on Thursday, Malaysia,China, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and Vietnam rank above India. The countrieswhich are ranked below India are Myanmar, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Nepal andPakistan.India's HDI has consistently gone up from 0.411 in 1975 to 0.595 in 2002.The HDI was 0.579 in 2000. The HDI, it may be mentioned, is an index whichfocuses on three measurable dimensions of human development - living a longand healthy life, being educated and having a decent standard of living. Theindex combines measures of life expectancy, school enrollment, literacy andincome to allow a broader view of a country's development.The 2002 report, which focuses on "Cultural liberty in today's world",recognises India's vibrant multi-cultural ethos based on a strong andcomposite policy framework that promotes democracy and diversity. The report, UNDP resident representative Maxine Olson said, "salutes India forits multi-cultural facet." In India there is space for state identity whilemaintaining a strong Central focus simultaneously, she added.Terming the HDI 2004 a monumental contribution, Mr Reddy said that culturalliberty was important not only for peace and progress but also for thesurvival of mankind. "We must all learn to live together, and celebrate diversity," the minister added.© 2004: Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd. All rights reservedthroughout the world. Yahoo! India Careers: Over 65,000 jobs online.
Re: India's HDI Improves, Ranking Doesn't
This requires a long response but I must make it short. The Hindu-Muslim divide is India's least problematic cultural divide. If one were to rank the splits (which in itself is problematic because of its binary approach) it would the dalits and the tribal communities versus the rest. The dalits are the untouchables or in officialese scheduled castes. But I must hasten to add that the Indian government's reservation policy (affirmative action based on equality of outcomes rather than opportunity) has had some positive impact. The rise of the lower castes and the untouchables in a limited way has changed the basic contours of Indian political power. Regional parties representing local interests have become more salient and gradually wrested control from national, often elite-centered, and north-Indian biased parties. But the caste divide is complicated with increasingly class based secular demands. So the divide is a class issue, which is fused with the caste split. There are other splits, which have been better handled, for example language. Thus far 20 languages or so have been recognized by the government. Each language at the minimum represents an ethnic community. But ethnicity goes beyond language. It also includes religion, region, culture, and so on. The Indian government has generally handled demands for autonomy reasonably well, if keeping the states within the Indian union is a criterion for managing splits well. The Sikhs and Christians haven't done badly in India at all. And despite miles to go, women in India are making their mark in politics, the corporate world, and intellectual life. So the Hindu-Muslim divide is confined to certain pockets, exacerbated by the politicization of religion by the last ruling party. It finds far less resonance among the people than what might be perceived at a distance. Cheers, anthony xxx Anthony P. D'Costa, Professor Comparative International Development/South Asia and International Studies University of WashingtonCampus Box 358436 1900 Commerce Street Tacoma, WA 98402, USA Phone: (253) 692-4462 Fax : (253) 692-5718 xxx On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Michael Perelman wrote: To what extent has India managed to handle it diversity other than the Hindu/Muslim split? -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
