I appreciate that we have avoided a rehash of the market socialism debate.
With
regard to the surplus, many traditional societies consumed the surplus in
the
form of a ceremony at the end of the year rather than engaging in
accumulation.
In the investment banking community we used to call this
Paul, could you give us the flavor of the role of remittances in the wage
structure of Yugoslavia?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
republics).
Paul
Date sent: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:31:49 -0700
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:28098] Re: Re: Re: Re: : Market Socialism
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Paul, could you
Building on Ian's quote from his ex-neighbor from Boeing, whenever a real
emergency arises -- earthquakes, total wars We retreat from markets
and turn to something else -- at least as long as the crisis state
remains. Would the public applaud the entrepreneurship of someone selling
bottled
Ian Murray wrote:
[from an interview with Phil Condit, CEO of Boeing in
yesterday's Guardian]
In the six years since he and his executive team put
together
Vision 2016, they have transformed Boeing from a maker of
airplanes into a systems integrator, a
Gar in a recent post on Market Socialism and inequality (I
accidently erased the wrong post) made the statement that
inequality under market socialism would be worse than under
planning and used Jugoslavia as an example. Unfortunately for his
argument, this is not in accord with the facts.
From: Carl Remick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I too as a devotely irreligious person can cite the bible ...
Er, make that devoutly. Normally I don't follow up on spelling errors, but
since Louis Proyect seems to be setting a new, higher standard on this
score, I figured I should be punctilious in this
Absolutely. And if the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose, I too
as a devotely irreligious person can cite the bible's memorable comment on
this topic: Where there is no vision, the people perish. (Proverbs 29:18)
Utopian visions can catalyze thought and action. They are not to
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In the first instance, with Morris, you are dealing with a genre of
literature, namely the utopian novel. ... In the case of Hahnel-Albert, you
are confronted with *utopianism*, a form of political advocacy that seeks
ideal solutions to problems that had
Well, yeah, if everyone is interested in continuing this discussion,
fine. I have not gotten much from it myself. The problem for me is that
the discussion has remained extremely abstract and has not done much
other than reinforce the prejudices people had when they started the
I don't think it is ahistorical to deal with the limits of the
possible. Most utopian socialists today are activists. And in fact, I
doubt that in the immediate issues, what we are fighting for today
Albert and Hahel, Justin, and Michael Perlman would find much to
disagree about. But if you
Gar wrote:
I don't think it is ahistorical to deal with the limits of the
possible. Most utopian socialists today are activists.
I am sorry, Gar. This is not a question of activist credibility. This is
not why I object to Looking Forward. It is about how socialism can be
achieved. I believe
From: Carl Remick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ralph Waldo Emerson, ... criticizing the utopianism of Charles Fourier,
said in part ...
Michael Perelman asked offlist about the source of that quote. It's from
Emerson's essay Fourierism and the Socialists -- text at
Gar:
If it is the only thing maybe. But as part of a broader program of
activism, how does it miseducate?
It tries to makes a connection between our ideas and what happened in
history. Against the managerialism of Lenin, Albert-Hahnel propose
participatory economics. Russia did not end up with
At 11:54 AM 07/11/2002 -0700, Gar wrote:
The worse the better eh? Both from personal experience, and from my
reading of history people are mostly likely to engage in either radical or
revolutionary activity when they have hope - when they believe things can
be better. I think you can find more
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Carl Remick wrote:
Ralph Waldo Emerson, ... criticizing the utopianism of Charles Fourier,
said in part ...
While we're putting down Utopians, this reminds me of one of my favorite
Keynes quotes, about Bertrand Russell:
Bertie in particular sustained simultaneously a
I appreciate that we have avoided a rehash of the market socialism debate. With
regard to the surplus, many traditional societies consumed the surplus in the
form of a ceremony at the end of the year rather than engaging in accumulation.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California
Michael Perelman wrote:
I appreciate that we have avoided a rehash of the market socialism
debate. With
regard to the surplus, many traditional societies consumed the surplus in the
form of a ceremony at the end of the year rather than engaging in
accumulation.
You nostalgic for that
How about something like this, at least for produce markets:
The land is worked in common and the produce stored. People take from the
stores according to their needs. Planting will be adjusted according to
whether there are shortages or surpluses of products. These are truly free
markets that
This isn't a market, unless any system that responds to demand is a market.
In which case any but the most obtuse sort of planning is a market system.
It's not what any market socialist means by a market. What we mean is that
the producers produce for profit, and sell their stuff toothers on
A stuff toother is slang for potlatch.
Gene
Louis Proyect wrote:
This isn't a market, unless any system that responds to demand is a market.
In which case any but the most obtuse sort of planning is a market system.
It's not what any market socialist means by a market. What we mean is that
I've never met anyone so dumb as to claim the fact that the Second
International did *no* thinking about what society would look like
after the revolution played a role in opening the way for Stalin.
Until now...
I have not been a part of this thread and tend to generally avoid these
kinds
The observation that the post-1918 Bolshevik Party had no clue what
kind of society it should be building--and that that was a big source
of trouble--is not red-baiting. It's a commonplace.
I've never met anyone so dumb as to claim the fact that the Second
International did *no* thinking
I wrote: "let's you and him fight!" -- is this an effort to divide and conquer
(what's
left of) the left?
quoth Brad, in his wisdom:
No. It's an attempt to *think* about the future.
If you want to make not thinking about the future a virtue, go ahead...
Michael, is the above calculated to
Brad just can't help red baiting. It's part of the air the breathes.
michael yates
Brad DeLong wrote:
I recall how Marx scrupulously tried to avoid discussions about how
to organize the future,
since it would just set off squabbling.
And *not* discussing how to organize the future
Brad writes:
And *not* discussing how to organize the future leads to... Stalin.
so was a lack of prior discussion the basis of the bloodiness of the revolution from
above
that's being foisted on the world by the "Washington Consensus" (the US Treasury, the
IMF,
the World Bank)?
I'd
Brad just can't help red baiting. It's part of the air the breathes.
michael yates
Brad DeLong wrote:
I recall how Marx scrupulously tried to avoid discussions about how
to organize the future,
since it would just set off squabbling.
And *not* discussing how to organize the future
"let's you and him fight!" -- is this an effort to divide and
conquer (what's left of) the
left?
-- Jim
Devine
No. It's an attempt to *think* about the future.
If you want to make not thinking about the future a virtue, go ahead...
On the other hand, Louis, I don't know how realistic it is to expect in these
days that the working class can be armed to smash the structures of
capitalism,
whether they are at the national or global level, either. In the not so near
future, maybe. But any such attempt now in my country would
Sabri,
I concur with Justin that the NCE version of market socialism is
just as flawed as NCE itself and therefore of little use as a model
for a real economy, in particular a socialist real economy. I would
disagree with Justin that there is no role for planning. Obviously,
for instance,
- Original Message -
From: "Sabri Oncu" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This is pretty much what Boswell and Chase-Dunn suggest in "The Spiral of
Capitalism and Socialism" as well. I am not at all comfortable with the
strategy they are suggesting to the global movements, as, for example, it
involves
I don't say that there is no role for planning. I am an advocate of the
Schweickart model, which calls for investment planning--there are no capital
markets in the model; and in addition, for planning of public goods, such as
electric power. I disagree with Philip about the lack of capital
Louis writes:Since the art of politics is knowing what has to be done *next*, our
efforts
should be focused on the immediate class struggle and not blueprints for a socialist
society. That is in fact what Marx said.
I thought we got beyond quoting Marx as if doing so settled questions.
In any
Jim Devine:
In fact, I think that Lenin did a lot of thinking about how socialism
should be organized,
in his STATE AND REVOLUTION. I'm sure this attitude was shared by other
Bolsheviks,
especially as they found that power was in their hands.
Yes, Lenin did a lot of thinking about how socialism
Louis writes: I don't think such talk [about how socialism is to be run] among people
like us does very much good. It is much better to figure out how to deal with immediate
questions such as deregulation, the stock market, IMF austerity, etc. At least on
questions such as these, we can exchange
Jim Devine:
automatical sent to the trash can.) But just because you're not interested
in a topic
doesn't mean that pen-l can't discuss it. As far as I can tell, the only
person who has
that kind of say is Michael Perelman.
Actually, I think that Michael just said that the topic has been done
Jim Devine:
BTW, what type of people _should_ be discussing issues of how socialism
should be run?
Don't you think a bunch of professional economists and
economically-literate folks could
add something?
Naw, it can wait.
Louis Proyect
Friends,
I am not writing this to pour
you are absolutely correct.
Carrol Cox wrote:
so the main
task of authors of books and articles is not to reach a broader audience
but to provide ammunition (information, tactical and strategic training,
perspective, etc.) to those who write the leaflets or who talk with the
readers of
Calm down plase.
Rod Hay wrote:
You provided a lot of bluster about the Soviet Union. I am talking about something
much simpler and more in my limited grasp. Real existing non market institutions,
that seem to work perfectly well.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State
Okay, Michael. I will, but a blatant misrepresentation of what I had said, added to
several posts attacking my intelligence finally got to me.
I'm calm, really I am. Real calm. Maybe a good game of basketball would help me. And
my next softball game isn't until thursday.
Rod
Michael Perelman
Thanks.
Okay, Michael. I will, but a blatant misrepresentation of what I had said, added to
several posts attacking my intelligence finally got to me.
I'm calm, really I am. Real calm. Maybe a good game of basketball would help me. And
my next softball game isn't until thursday.
Rod
In a message dated 7/17/00 6:02:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It appears Justin that you don't have time to read as well as to check
your spelling.
Sorry if I offended you. I have no idea what you want out of an argument.
Hayek presents an argument about the
In a message dated 7/16/00 2:09:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Justin, you, and to some extent Doug, have been asking for concrete
explanations of how planning would work. I don't see how market socialism
would work either. Seriously. The problem is that markets
I have read Schweickart, but you do us all a service by summarizing his work so
well. Let's look at (1). Some cooperatives do better than others. Now comes
time to replace a worker. What is the relative position of her/his replacement?
Does the original worker share in the continued profits
This is a very helpful post. Is there anywhere on line where one could read up on
the essential features of market socialism etc. I am not too close to a
university library and even when I get there I expect with cutbacks most stuff is
not there. I would have to get it on interlibrary loan.
Just
In a message dated 7/16/00 11:02:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I have read Schweickart, but you do us all a service by summarizing his
work so
well. Let's look at (1). Some cooperatives do better than others. Now
comes
time to replace a worker. What is the
In a message dated 7/16/00 1:45:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
This is a very helpful post. Is there anywhere on line where one could
read up on
the essential features of market socialism etc.
Don't know, alas. I'd order Dave's book, in paperback from Westview Press.
Jim offers a long, meaty, and substantive discussion. I will look it over
tomorrow and see if I have more to say, but a few comparatively short
responses on a quick read through. Btw, this is part I of II. The message was
too long for my system to handle.
I didn't say that Hayek and the
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