RE: Economics as religion
I wrote:>>normative assumptions seem inherent in the process of building models. Models, by their very nature, simplify empirical reality in order to understand it. Then you must decide which simplifying assumptions to make. The standard one is "perfect competition without externalities (etc.)" -- so that the standard model involves a clearly normative assumption, saying that the real world is close to being a utopia. ...<< mbs:> that sounds like a positive assumption to me. a normative one would be that perfect competition is a desirable state, but to assume there is pc, or even that it is inevitable, does not imply it is desirable.< the assumption is both positive and normative. The standard assumption of perfect competition is saying that the real, empirical, world is close to the neoclassical moral ideal (except concerning small matters like equity). That puts the rest of the analysis into context. It encourages the neo-liberal practice of wanting to force the entire world into the market mould. Each "imperfection" that is allowed into the model can be removed, allowing us to move toward the Ideal. This ignores the neoclassical "theory of the second best" which is almost always ignored by the neoclassicals: this theory says that removing the imperfection -- e.g., any non-market way of doing things -- need not improve welfare (even by neoclassical standards) and may make people worse off. JD
RE: RE: Re: Economics as religion
normative assumptions seem inherent in the process of building models. Models, by their very nature, simplify empirical reality in order to understand it. Then you must decide which simplifying assumptions to make. The standard one is "perfect competition without externalities (etc.)" -- so that the standard model involves a clearly normative assumption, saying that the real world is close to being a utopia. One could assume monopolistic mbs: that sounds like a positive assumption to me. a normative one would be that perfect competition is a desirable state, but to assume there is pc, or even that it is inevitable, does not imply it is desirable. I'm looking forward to reading the paper; haven't yet.
RE: Re: Economics as religion
>Positive economics is alive and well and living in Austria? What a crock. Show me any orthodox micro analysis that isn't rife with normative assumptions and I will genuflect with humiliation. I have no worries that I will be so obliged. < normative assumptions seem inherent in the process of building models. Models, by their very nature, simplify empirical reality in order to understand it. Then you must decide which simplifying assumptions to make. The standard one is "perfect competition without externalities (etc.)" -- so that the standard model involves a clearly normative assumption, saying that the real world is close to being a utopia. One could assume monopolistic competition instead, but not only does that make the model more complicated, it almost certainly reflects one's normative view that the real world isn't close to perfect. That doesn't say that all models should be rejected. Rather, the point is to be conscious of the problem. JD
Re: Economics as religion
From: Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: m <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, pen-l Date sent: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 18:16:51 -0400 Subject:[PEN-L:25197] Economics as religion Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >At times Nelson seems to deny the prospect of a value-free analysis. Here, I think he goes too far. Positive economics is alive and well in academia, and the economic paradigm of choice within constraints is being pushed steadily forward to new frontiers of explanation (including religion). There are no hidden values here; there is no sub-text. There is a simple desire to explain the world as it is in a more understandable way. The relevant question to these scholars is not how but why? Most of the work that Nelson discusses in the modern Chicago approach and in the New Institutional Economics is this type of analysis. And while understanding the world per se may actually lead to social change, I do not think this correlation is thought about or stressed very much by these analysts. Their focus is on understanding, not changing, the world. Positive economics is alive and well and living in Austria? What a crock. Show me any orthodox micro analysis that isn't rife with normative assumptions and I will genuflect with humiliation. I have no worries that I will be so obliged. Paul Phillips, Economics, University of Manitoba
Re: Economics as religion
Tollison has written extensively about the Catholic church as a monopoly in the market for salvation. He is very conservative (of the Austrian variety) and so would not be sympathetic to the book. That he was as positive as he was suggests that the book might be good. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RE: Re: economics as religion
Jon Elster has a number of recent works on norms that seem to fit the bill; the titles escape me just now. --jks >From: "Max Sawicky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: [PEN-L:13126] RE: Re: economics as religion >Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:12:00 +0100 > >Kenneth Boulding. >The Economy of Love and Fear. > >mbs > > >Could anyone offer a good book that deals with microeconomic behaviour >say of individuals to noneconomic wants (religion, group solidarity, and >the like)? I would prefer a less technical/modelling approach and more of >a truly interdisciplinary treatment, bringing to bear insights from >anthropology, sociology, politics, and of course microeconomics. > >Thanks. Anthony > _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: economics as religion
- Original Message - From: "Michael Perelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Here is a slightly different variant. > > Ekelund, Robert B., Jr, Robert F. Hebert and Robert D. Tollison. 1989. > "An Economic Model of the Medieval Church: Usury as a Form of Rent > Seeking." Journal of Law, Economics and Organization, Vol. 5, No. 2 > (Fall): pp. 307-31. > 309: "During the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic Church was the > dominant firm in the salvation industry Our research on usury ... > suggests: (1) that the usury doctrine was merely one tile in a larger > mosaic of monopoly organization, and (2) that usury and several other > policies of the medieval church take on new meaning when interpreted in an > explicitly economic framework." Monotheism/Monopoly maybe there's something to the economics as imperialism perspective after all :-) What's next, an analysis of galaxy formation as strategic oligopoly? Ian
Re: Re: economics as religion
On Monday, June 11, 2001 at 15:01:56 (-0700) Tim Bousquet writes: >I'ver been working on an article for sometime about >the religion of the market. Thomas Frank, of Babbler >Magazine, sort of beat me to the punch with his "One >Market Under God," but there's still a lot to be said. >Ken Lay is example #1, I think: a right-wing Christian >who goes around endowing chairs at Universities that >promote "free market" ideology and such. Using Thomas Ferguson's "Investment Theory" yields very interesting results in this regard. If you examine industrial structure and its relationship to political ideology, large cleavages emerge (inter alia) between labor-intensive and capital-intensive industries. Capital-intensive industries have an inherent advantage in the political arena because they can tolerate discussion about economic fairness much more readily than do labor-intensive firms. Once political discussion has shifted to economic issues, the political faction backed by labor-intensive firms will be wiped out. The typical strategy is to divert the discussion by slinging mud and frightening people by resorting to a variety of outrageous fantasy, with religion playing its well-understood, well-funded and very central role here. Bill
Re: Re: economics as religion
June Nash, "We Eat the Mines and the Mines Eat Us" Emile Zola, "Germinal" Marshall Sahlins, "Stone Age Economics" Harry Braverman, "Labor and Monopoly Capital" David Noble, "Forces of Production" At 02:52 PM 6/11/01 -0700, you wrote: >Could anyone offer a good book that deals with microeconomic behaviour >say of individuals to noneconomic wants (religion, group solidarity, and >the like)? I would prefer a less technical/modelling approach and more of >a truly interdisciplinary treatment, bringing to bear insights from >anthropology, sociology, politics, and of course microeconomics. > >Thanks. Anthony > >xxx x >Anthony P. D'Costa >Associate ProfessorPh: (253) 692-4462 >Comparative International Development Fax: (253) 692-5718 >University of Washington Box Number: 358436 >1900 Commerce Street >Tacoma, WA 98402, USA >xxx > Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/
Re: Re: Re: economics as religion
Some people from Auburn have written some nice stuff against the Catholic church, describing the struggles of the reformation, as an attempt to break the Catholic's monopoly on the "market for salvation." Here is a slightly different variant. Ekelund, Robert B., Jr, Robert F. Hebert and Robert D. Tollison. 1989. "An Economic Model of the Medieval Church: Usury as a Form of Rent Seeking." Journal of Law, Economics and Organization, Vol. 5, No. 2 (Fall): pp. 307-31. 309: "During the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic Church was the dominant firm in the salvation industry Our research on usury ... suggests: (1) that the usury doctrine was merely one tile in a larger mosaic of monopoly organization, and (2) that usury and several other policies of the medieval church take on new meaning when interpreted in an explicitly economic framework." On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:07:42PM -0700, Jim Devine wrote: > Harvey Cox had an article titled "The Market as God" in the ATLANTIC > MONTHLY. I don't know the date. > > At 03:01 PM 6/11/01 -0700, you wrote: > >I'ver been working on an article for sometime about > >the religion of the market. Thomas Frank, of Babbler > >Magazine, sort of beat me to the punch with his "One > >Market Under God," but there's still a lot to be said. > >Ken Lay is example #1, I think: a right-wing Christian > >who goes around endowing chairs at Universities that > >promote "free market" ideology and such. > >Tim > > Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine > -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: economics as religion
The reviewer, Timur Kuran, has also writen on the subject. On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 02:37:00PM -0700, Jim Devine wrote: > Economics as Religion > From Samuelson to Chicago and Beyond > Robert H. Nelson > Spring 2001 | 392 pgs | 6 x 9 > > An insightful exploration of the powerful role that economic belief plays > in our modern society as a secular religion that serves many of the same > functions as early Christian and other religions did in their time. > > "In economic research, as with all systematic thought, there is no such > thing as unguided observation. Economists interpret events and make > predictions through the distortive lenses of paradigms. In this book, which > draws fascinating parallels between economic paradigms and religious dogma, > Robert Nelson offers a critical survey of modern economic thought that is > as informative as it is provocative. Economics as Religion will be of > interest not only to economists but also to anyone eager to know more about > how scientific disciplines operate." Timur Kuran > > Robert H. Nelson has had wide government experience in the application of > economics to public policy and is a professor in the School of Public > Affairs at the University of Maryland and senior fellow of the Competitive > Enterprise Institute. He is the author of Reaching for Heaven on Earth: The > Theological Meaning of Economics (Rowman & Littlefield, 1991). His other > books include Zoning and Property Rights (MIT, 1977), The Making of Federal > Coal Policy (Duke, 1983), and A Burning Issue: A Case for Abolishing the > U.S. Forest Service (Rowman & Littlefield, 2000). > > -- > > an interesting title, but the author seems to believe in the libertarian > religion... > > Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine > -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: economics as religion
Kenneth Boulding. The Economy of Love and Fear. mbs Could anyone offer a good book that deals with microeconomic behaviour say of individuals to noneconomic wants (religion, group solidarity, and the like)? I would prefer a less technical/modelling approach and more of a truly interdisciplinary treatment, bringing to bear insights from anthropology, sociology, politics, and of course microeconomics. Thanks. Anthony
Re: Re: economics as religion
Harvey Cox had an article titled "The Market as God" in the ATLANTIC MONTHLY. I don't know the date. At 03:01 PM 6/11/01 -0700, you wrote: >I'ver been working on an article for sometime about >the religion of the market. Thomas Frank, of Babbler >Magazine, sort of beat me to the punch with his "One >Market Under God," but there's still a lot to be said. >Ken Lay is example #1, I think: a right-wing Christian >who goes around endowing chairs at Universities that >promote "free market" ideology and such. >Tim Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
Re: economics as religion
I'ver been working on an article for sometime about the religion of the market. Thomas Frank, of Babbler Magazine, sort of beat me to the punch with his "One Market Under God," but there's still a lot to be said. Ken Lay is example #1, I think: a right-wing Christian who goes around endowing chairs at Universities that promote "free market" ideology and such. Tim --- Jim Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Economics as Religion > From Samuelson to Chicago and Beyond > Robert H. Nelson > Spring 2001 | 392 pgs | 6 x 9 > > An insightful exploration of the powerful role that > economic belief plays > in our modern society as a secular religion that > serves many of the same > functions as early Christian and other religions did > in their time. > > "In economic research, as with all systematic > thought, there is no such > thing as unguided observation. Economists interpret > events and make > predictions through the distortive lenses of > paradigms. In this book, which > draws fascinating parallels between economic > paradigms and religious dogma, > Robert Nelson offers a critical survey of modern > economic thought that is > as informative as it is provocative. Economics as > Religion will be of > interest not only to economists but also to anyone > eager to know more about > how scientific disciplines operate." Timur Kuran > > Robert H. Nelson has had wide government experience > in the application of > economics to public policy and is a professor in the > School of Public > Affairs at the University of Maryland and senior > fellow of the Competitive > Enterprise Institute. He is the author of Reaching > for Heaven on Earth: The > Theological Meaning of Economics (Rowman & > Littlefield, 1991). His other > books include Zoning and Property Rights (MIT, > 1977), The Making of Federal > Coal Policy (Duke, 1983), and A Burning Issue: A > Case for Abolishing the > U.S. Forest Service (Rowman & Littlefield, 2000). > > -- > > an interesting title, but the author seems to > believe in the libertarian > religion... > > Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & > http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine > = Subscribe to the Chico Examiner for only $30 annually or $20 for six months. Mail cash or check payabe to "Tim Bousquet" to POBox 4627, Chico CA 95927 __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: economics as religion
Could anyone offer a good book that deals with microeconomic behaviour say of individuals to noneconomic wants (religion, group solidarity, and the like)? I would prefer a less technical/modelling approach and more of a truly interdisciplinary treatment, bringing to bear insights from anthropology, sociology, politics, and of course microeconomics. Thanks. Anthony Anthony P. D'Costa Associate Professor Ph: (253) 692-4462 Comparative International Development Fax: (253) 692-5718 University of WashingtonBox Number: 358436 1900 Commerce Street Tacoma, WA 98402, USA xxx
