Re: [PEN-L] China's Socialist Path

Shane Mage wrote: It is the opposite--a movement from a backward bureaucratic state capitalism, which reflected the semi-feudal and dependent colonial structures inherited by the CCP, towards a modern, globalized capitalism in which the proletariat is growing by leaps and bounds, in numbers,

[PEN-L] Fidel steps down

http://www.granma.cubaweb.cu/2008/02/19/nacional/artic10.html

[PEN-L] Krugman: a peak oil believer?

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/19/feeling-a-bit-peaked/

Re: [PEN-L] Deng Xiao Ping Theory: The Framework which Guides China's Development

Eric wrote: Hi Louis, I'm sad to see your comment below. Comrades should not speak to each other like this. With due zealotry and certainty, Louis protects the sacred flame of Marxism (tm) against anybody tempted to dim it by standing anywhere near the Brenner Thesis, China, Ahmedinajad,

Re: [PEN-L] David Brooks predicts a centrist Democratic president whoever wins

Louis Proyect wrote: I thought it was fairly shrewd of him [David Brooks] to make the case that the next Democratic president will run the country like Bill Clinton, whether it is his wife or that change guy. It's not shrewdness. It's wishful thinking. Of course, in politics, anything can

Re: [PEN-L] David Brooks predicts a centrist Democratic president whoever wins

Doug wrote: By almost any orthodox economic measure, the U.S. is due for an austerity program. The consumption share of GDP is over 70%, up from 67% a decade ago, and 62% at the end of the 1970s. There was an unprecedented housing boom and massive mortgage borrowing. Household savings are 0

Re: [PEN-L] David Brooks predicts a centrist Democratic president whoever wins

Doug wrote: Nothing's ever impossible, but why would a new president pursue them [non-orthodox policies]? Because they need to buy more time, more political wiggle room for capitalism. I wish the next president would appoint Julio Huato chair of the CEA, but I don't think that's likely

[PEN-L] On the third hand [was: Let.s Go Hillary]

Jim Devine wrote: Sure, I'm going to vote for whomever the Dems choose, to prevent the current version of Bush from being elected. But I know that the vote is wasted. It's totally harmless to the corporations. (Besides, as the anarchists say, if voting could change the system it would be

[PEN-L] Obama on 60 Minutes

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/10/politics/main3813759.shtml

Re: [PEN-L] Let.s Go Hillary

Jim Devine wrote: On the other hand, if Clinton is elected, she'll probably turn out to be as bad as Obama would be. But it would be a sign that at least some of the struggle against sexism has been successful. Yet on the third hand, if McCain wins he may turn out to be as good as Bush!

[PEN-L] Hillary Clinton on 60 Minutes

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=3814250n

Re: [PEN-L] Let.s Go Hillary

Carrol wrote: When a national coalition to replace the DP-Pimps at UFPJ == When something somewhere entirely unexpected and unpredictable now occurs [e.g., Walmart employees emulate the Fisher Body Sit Down Strike) -- When 50,000 white, black, asian marchers come out to a pro-illegal

Re: [PEN-L] Let.s Go Hillary

Jim Devine wrote: I know it's a cliché, but whatever happened to optimism of the will, pessimism of the intellect? How is voting for Hillary, McCain, Huckabee, Paul, Gravel, Nader, the SWP, etc. -- or not voting! -- a manifestation of this optimism of the will?

Re: [PEN-L] Let.s Go Hillary

Carrol wrote: It seems to me that to put one's hopes in either Obama or Clinton is to express utter despair. And putting your hopes in Nader is a sign of cheerfulness? (It's odd to have the words cheerfulness and Nader in the same sentence.)

[PEN-L] I hope you all vote(d) for Obama

C'mon everybody in the U.S. Go out and vote. For Obama, of course. Then keep doing whatever you're doing to advance socialism in the world.

[PEN-L] I hope you all vote(d) for Obama

Carrol is right. Individually, in isolation, the decision to vote or not vote (and for whom) makes an infinitesimally small difference. Negligible. If you rule out the improbable event of an extremely, tightly contested election, a few votes make no difference whatever. So, the decision has to

[PEN-L] I hope you all vote(d) for Obama

Just a quick addendum to my argument that a broader social base of support makes Obama less likely than Clinton to get in the way of the social struggle for out of Iraq and universal health care: The political stock of progressives (or whichever way you call that mass of people, loosely

[PEN-L] Paul Samuelson: Balancing Market Freedoms

http://www.iht.com/bin/printfriendly.php?id=8390223

[PEN-L] Paul Samuelson: Balancing Market Freedoms

P Samuelson wrote: Since we live ever in the short run... Before that he wrote: When I come to write a newspaper article like this 10 years from now, I believe America may still be leading the pack in per-capita affluence. He was born in 1915.

[PEN-L] Adbusters: Mankiw as a propaganda hack

http://adbusters.org/the_magazine/75/Economic_Indoctrination.html

[PEN-L] Paulson anticipates slower growth of U.S. economy

http://www.bloomberg.com/avp/avp.htm?clipSRC=mms://media2.bloomberg.com/cache/vD5CqfchvmhI.asf

Re: [PEN-L] Gindin, Brenner and capitalist catastrophe

Patrick, I just read your article on the Global Crisis. I'm not really sure I get your point about over-accumulation. First, it's not clear to me whether over-accumulation is, in your view, (1) a chronic, systemic condition of capitalism, (2) a tendency in a given stage in the history of

Re: [PEN-L] Gindin, Brenner and capitalist catastrophe

Patrick Bond wrote: Very eloquent summary, Julio, which is excellent but for the lack of attention to the overaccumulation dynamic. Doesn't that feature in your story? (That's also where Sam, Leo, Doug, Giovanni and a few others depart from the crisis theorists.) Thanks, Patrick. Well, I

[PEN-L] Cristina Rosas free!

Only to report to PEN-L that, after 2 years and 9 months of unjust imprisonment in Queretaro, Mexico for helping workers in their fight for better living conditions, Cristina Rosas Illescas has been released. She is thanking all those who supported her. (Thanks Yoshie for publishing an article I

Re: [PEN-L] Gindin, Brenner and capitalist catastrophe

Doyle wrote: The intelligence agencies of the U.S. have implied this end of neoliberalism would open the door to a revived Marxism. To the extent Greenspan's Age of Turbulence is not a inane act of self-rationalization, of public exculpation of his past sins, it is an equally dull attempt to

Re: [PEN-L] Gindin, Brenner and capitalist catastrophe

Jim Devine wrote: While there can be sectoral over- or under-accumulation, there can be macro-level over-accumulation, too, which then leads to something which might be called under-accumulation but that term seems confusing. (the idea of alternating under- and over-accumulation in different

Re: [PEN-L] Gindin, Brenner and capitalist catastrophe

Michael Perelman wrote: I don't think so. Admittedly, the finals weeks have been draining. Right. The finals. Taking a break from marking and grading. My telegraphic opinion re. the prospects of capitalism is that capitalism is a bundle. We need to un-bundle it a bit -- to the extent most

[PEN-L] Chile vs. Venezuela on N Roubini's blog

http://www.rgemonitor.com/latam-monitor/498/chile_-_venezuela__the_hidden_weakness_of_a_strong_economy

[PEN-L] The wiki again

Hoping to get a bit more input from people, I removed the registration hurdle of the wiki. Feel free to stop by and write/edit your soul away. Thanks Doyle for going through the trouble of registering. :) http://usprogress.wetpaint.com/

Re: [PEN-L] Moral hazard

What the economists consider as systemic (or macro) risk under capitalism includes a lot of faux systemic risk -- i.e. risk that arises from the specific nature of capitalism. As I suggested, *that* risk is entirely diversifiable... by building communism. Remember, the economists consider the

Re: [PEN-L] Moral hazard

I haven't read all the messages on this thread. Just a quick note out of nowhere. There's ambiguity in the notion of moral hazard as it used in economics. In general, it refers to cases in which insurance (in any form) shifts the best actions of people towards more risk. As such, it's a

[PEN-L] A wiki

http://usprogress.wetpaint.com/ Let's see where it takes us... if anywhere.

[PEN-L] Cue the NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/30/world/americas/30venez.html?hp

[PEN-L] Northern Rock and moral hazard

raghu wrote: Interesting column in the FT by Martin Wolf about the bids to buy Northern Rock. Another column by Wolf that might also be of interest here: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/afd6e830-978b-11dc-9e08-779fd2ac.html Why is the FT more bearish than the WSJ?

Re: [PEN-L] Northern Rock and moral hazard

And this one by L Summers: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/afd6e830-978b-11dc-9e08-779fd2ac.html

[PEN-L] Feldstein's (tepid) response to Krugman's and Stiglitz's criticism of Greenspan

http://www.bloomberg.com/avp/avp.htm?clipSRC=mms://media2.bloomberg.com/cache/vUnG6vlnj7ec.asf

[PEN-L] The Art of Mental Warfare

Jason Funke linked: http://artofmentalwarfare.com/pog/ Videos are powerful agitational devices. However, before an agitational campaign is launched, one needs -- as they used to say -- a tactical plan and a strategy to underpin it. In Mexico, today, a broad group of left-wing intellectuals

[PEN-L] The Art of Mental Warfare

I wrote: The opportunity to harness this energy will not last very long. [...] Wait for Hillary or whoever to get elected and see what happens. I meant for the latter sentence to follow the former immediately.

[PEN-L] ECLAC: Venezuela's poverty extreme poverty 2002-2006: down 18.4 12.3 percentage points

http://www.cepal.org/publicaciones/xml/5/30305/PSE2007_Sintesis_Lanzamiento.pdf Venezuela (Rep. Bolivariana de) YearPoverty Extreme poverty 200248,622,2 200537,115,9 200630,29,9 Por su parte, la República Bolivariana de Venezuela logró disminuir sus tasas de pobreza e

[PEN-L] Stiglitz: The Economic Consequences of Mr Bush

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/12/bush200712

[PEN-L] Orquesta Sinfónica Juvenil Simón Bolivar de Venezuela

Departing a bit from the merely economic or politic, this caused a very enthusiastic impression on the critics: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/14/arts/music/14boli.html?ref=music

Re: [PEN-L] central bank credibility v. transparency

Jim, It's only on the macroeconomic level that the objective centers of gravity of prices are the values. Clearly, that was the context. Clearly, these values are the social aggregate (average) of private expectations about the amounts of social labor required to reproduce the MP and LP in

Re: [PEN-L] central bank credibility v. transparency

Jayson Funke wrote: are we not essentially in a situation in which global currencies are valued around the US dollar, and the value of the US dollar, de-linked from gold, is valued on financial market perceptions of the ability of the US to meet its debt obligations (ie. the ability of the

Re: [PEN-L] central bank credibility v. transparency

Doug wrote: Its supply [gold's] is strictly limited. The argument for gold has too many holes to poke them all at once. What does strictly mean here? Does it mean peak gold cum zero elasticity of demand? On the other hand, is the indebtedness of the U.S. Treasury unbounded? Apparently,

Re: [PEN-L] central bank credibility v. transparency

Doug wrote: And central banks can throw scores of billions at troubled markets under the present system; try that with a gold standard. Isn't that a strong argument against the gold standard? At least that's how Keynesians have viewed it. Can moral hazard be dealt with within the present

Re: [PEN-L] central bank credibility v. transparency

Shane Mage wrote: What meaning can the true probability distribution have here? Probability distribution (objective) can apply to the outcome of a series of random events like throws of dice or spins of a roulette wheel, or to (subjective) *an* estimate of the likelihood of various (mutually

Re: [PEN-L] central bank credibility v. transparency

Doug wrote: There's a curious asymmetry here. When the markets are zooming upwards, it's meaningless speculation. When they're collapsing, it's fraught with meaning. I don't see the inconsistency in saying that speculation disconnects asset prices from long-run fundamentals and that their

Re: [PEN-L] central bank credibility v. transparency

Michael Perelman wrote: But, we never really know what the fundamentals are, other than they are not too euphoric or not too pessimistic. We never know the true probability distribution of *any* interesting variable in the social sciences. That includes the ever shifting fundamental price

Re: [PEN-L] central bank credibility v. transparency

Doug wrote: Not exactly. The markets were very disappointed with Bernanke's testimony yesterday because he made it sound as if another rate cut is not imminent. Should things really unwind, they'll undoubtedly change their mind, but the message they're sending now is no rate cuts unless

Re: [PEN-L] Petrocracy in Venezuela?

Maybe the real challenges of Venezuela's oil industry are a bit over (NYT's) Tina Rosenberg's head. Here's a point by point refutation of her hit job. It deserves to be read: http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2007/11/tina-rosenberg-goes-to-school-on.html

[PEN-L] (Costa Gavras, 1973) Estado de Sitio

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xuzf1_estado-de-sitio-costa-gavras-1973_politics

[PEN-L] A report on Michael L's conference

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2784 The Bolivarian Project Without Workers Management There Can Be No Socialism October 30th 2007, by Kiraz Janicke – Venezuelanalysis.com Over the weekend of October 26 to 27, several hundred people attended a two day conference on Worker's Management:

[PEN-L] Krugman: securitized mortgages = meat at the supermarket

The New York Times October 22, 2007 Op-Ed Columnist Gone Baby Gone By PAUL KRUGMAN It pains me to say this, but this time Alan Greenspan is right about housing. Mr. Greenspan was wrong in 2004, when he sang the praises of adjustable-rate mortgages. He was wrong in 2005, when he dismissed the

[PEN-L] Stiglitz: China is a side show, the U.S. is the source of the global imbalances

I'm not sure Bloomberg still has this video up. It just disappeared from the list of links to its recent videos. The audio sucks during the first 45 min or so. http://www.bloomberg.com/avp/avp.htm?clipSRC=mms://media2.bloomberg.com/cache/viOn6lTGkCEE.asf

[PEN-L] NYT on the Bank of the South

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/world/americas/22bank.html

[PEN-L] The Iraqi resistance

http://video.on.nytimes.com/?fr_story=8e9862a9f3a8216027ef2f9ecd1c3bc5345b4134

[PEN-L] Meeting Resistance

http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/meeting-resistance/ Excellent review, Louis!

[PEN-L] Maskin on markets

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1538104320071015

[PEN-L] Stiglitz in Caracas

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2719

[PEN-L] Stiglitz in Caracas

Reports from other sources: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086sid=aYUzqdrconXMrefer=latin_america http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,2189350,00.html http://www.hindu.com/2007/10/14/stories/2007101456591400.htm

[PEN-L] Hurwicz

No comment on Hurwicz or the other winners of the Nobel in economics? (I know, it's not the Nobel in economics, but that's the way regular people call it.)

[PEN-L] The Class Issue

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/593/haves-have-nots

[PEN-L] new spirit of capitalism

Doug wrote: We should have subordinated the fight against racism and sexism to the class struggle, like the most idiotic of Stalinists used to argue? (Not the CPUSA, which had a pretty good record on sex and especially race.) I'd argue that, under some conditions (e.g. Iran's conditions

[PEN-L] new spirit of capitalism

Apologies to the list. The previous note was intended to lbo-talk.

[PEN-L] Blinder: collective decision making and monetary policy

http://www.princeton.edu/~ceps/workingpapers/151blinder.pdf Do I understand the implication correctly? Does this paper show that a monetary policy under the full and direct democratic control of the demos would be superior -- and not slower to implement -- than a monetary policy dictated by a

[PEN-L] NY TIMES slams Klein

I find this very interesting. The FT also has a full-page interview with Noami Klein covering her book with the usual snide remarks about her views. I think it speaks volumes of the deep insecurity the high priests of capitalism currently feel about their mode of production. They wouldn't need

[PEN-L] Greenspan, Bernanke, etc.

I just rush-read the transcript of Greenspan's (and Klein's) interview by Amy Goodman on Democracy Now. I was also tempted to do Monday morning quarterbacking, but I find Goodman's show to be -- very consistently -- great. (Producing a daily Democracy Now must be very tough. And Klein did what

[PEN-L] Has Ahmadinejad ever read Kinsey?

Louis Proyect transcribes the NYT blogging on Ahmadinejad at Columbia: Pressed by Dean Coatsworth on the original question about the rights of gay men and lesbians in Iran, Mr. Ahmadinejad said: In Iran, we don't have homosexuals like in your country. We don't have that in our country. I

[PEN-L] Has Ahmadinejad ever read Kinsey?

I wrote: Obviously, U.S. imperialism and Zionism are minor issues compared to the much more pressing demand for full individual rights for gays in Iran Oops, I meant to add the following immediately afterwards: , demand that remains unfulfilled mainly as a result of the political

Re: [PEN-L] Has Ahmadinejad ever read Kinsey?

Doug wrote: He was elected, and has the backing of the Supreme Leader, who speaks with god and is therefore above democracy. Like in the U.S., god is irrelevant in Iranian politics. The populace there (as here) is above and beyond that. More importantly, Ahmadinejad betrayed the mandate of

[PEN-L] Krugman's NYT blog

Now that it's free, I'm glad to invite clicks to Krugman's blog, devoted to international economics and finance issues. (He keeps being on the right side of the issues -- witness his latest column on Jena: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/opinion/24krugman.html)

Re: [PEN-L] Slavery and underdevelopment

Michael Lebowitz wrote: WOW, my old student! Bright guy; I was afraid he'd been warped by grad school. Good paper. Grad school is like capitalism.

[PEN-L] Fidel: Cuba saved Ronald Reagan's life

I know that was a catchy subject line -- and apparently factually true. That's not the only reason why this article is interesting though. * * * Reflections of President Fidel Castro The Empire and Its Lies It was Reagan who created the Cuban American National Foundation, whose sinister

Re: [PEN-L] a data question about the credit crisis

Sabri wrote: Here are some random thoughts: I don't remember this posting on my Gmane RSS feeds page (http://rss.gmane.org/messages/complete/gmane.science.economics.progressive-economists). I remember the before and after posts. By looking at the archives here

Re: [PEN-L] a data question about the credit crisis

Doug Henwood wrote: Pampers Can you elaborate?

[PEN-L] Who needs a recession?

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9687245

Re: [PEN-L] the glories of financial engineering

raghu wrote: The first [attitude] is exemplified by the principals of LTCM who appear to have sincerely believed in the infallibility of their models and the 25 standard deviations theory. I don't think this matters much, but FWIW historically: According to Richard Lowenstein (When Genius

Re: [PEN-L] the glories of financial engineering

raghu wrote: Does anyone on the Street actually believe in these models, or are they just using it as an excuse to goose up their asset values? (i.e. are these guys liar and thieves, or are they merely naive and stupid?) With all due respect to raghu personally, what is naive is to think

Re: [PEN-L] the glories of financial engineering

I wrote: The objectivity of social structures is more hardened than that of political and legal systems, I meant to write: The objectivity of *economic* structures is more hardened than that of political and legal systems,

Re: [PEN-L] the glories of financial engineering

Doug wrote: Models can be illuminating. But the way they're often used in the markets is to: 1) try to beat the market, which is impossible over the longer term, 2) hedge against risk, which though it makes sense a lot of the time, is prone to go haywire when most needed, in a financial

Re: [PEN-L] the glories of financial engineering

Ted Winslow wrote: On what rational grounds do you rule out the possibility that irrational psychology of a kind that can't be modeled in this way is at work in these markets? Have you made a serious study of the psychology of greed, mania and panic? I don't rule out that possibility.

[PEN-L] ... just a bull market correction

A contrarian view of the credit mess: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/925b018a-5111-11dc-8e9d-779fd2ac.html

[PEN-L] On Venezuela's economy

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d83b3294-51b4-11dc-8779-779fd2ac.html

[PEN-L] How the Brits lost Basra

The link won't work if you are not subscribed. So here's the text: * * * Wednesday Aug 22 2007 All times are London time COMMENT ANALYSIS Analysis How the British army lost Basra By Stephen Fidler Published: August 20 2007 18:33 | Last updated: August 20 2007 18:33 In the immediate

[PEN-L] reflections on the current crisis

Robert Wrubel wrote: Wasn't there also a supply factor, in an excess of money that needed to find new outlets for investment? I replied: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8c9dea94-3e30-11dc-8f6a-779fd2ac.html The surpluses built up faster as oil and other commodity prices went up. Somewhat

[PEN-L] reflections on the current crisis

Also, if somebody has Henry Kaufman's (WSJ) piece Our Risky New Financial Markets, please share with the list.

[PEN-L] reflections on the current crisis

Doug wrote: One of the many problems with CDOs and the like is that they're built by mathematicians who assume that the markets will always behave normally. Since long, people in finance *know* in their minds that the distribution of returns is nonstationary, that it has memory. On the

Re: [PEN-L] North American worker cooperation

A federal judge in Mexico City ruled yesterday that the workers' strike in Sombrerete, Zacatecas (http://www.sombrerete.com.mx/Galerias/somric/somric.html) has legal existence. http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2007/08/18/index.php?section=politicaarticle=012n1pol

Re: [PEN-L] Waiting for the end of the world

Doug wrote: But, looking at history, the odds are that it's not 1929 all over again. I'd agree with this. At this point, there's little basis to anticipate that the mortgage crisis and the turmoil in the markets will lead to a 1930s type of mess. But there are serious reasons to think that

Re: [PEN-L] North American worker cooperation

Michael Perelman wrote: Maybe he was with the miners. He is supposed to be very well known. His first name is Napoleon. The steel workers were defending him. He is probably with the steel workers in the US now. The government charged him with corruption, but it seemed like he was doing

Re: [PEN-L] North American worker cooperation

I wrote: The information is a bit telegraphic, but there's not much in the newspapers. I'll correct this. Actually, running searches I did find good information on the strike and the history of the conflicts on both La Jornada and El Universal online. So let me start by amending some things

[PEN-L] Sean Penn recently in Venezuela

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_en_ce/people_sean_penn_2

Re: [PEN-L] North American worker cooperation

Michael Perelman wrote: Can the head of the union return to Mexico safely yet? I didn't know that the head of the union was exiled. How did you learn this?

Re: [PEN-L] Contagiousness

Sartesian wrote: Yeah, but the overall size of of the CDO market, like the $10 trillion mortgage market itself is not the issue. The issue is what portion of the securities become worthless. Hence the subject line: Contagiousness. At first, one individual gets infected. Then the

Re: [PEN-L] Are central banks in control?

Jim Devine wrote: last time I checked, the EE exchange rate was depreciating... We have been looking at different numbers then. My figures show that China's RMB, Russia's rouble, India's rupee, Brazilian real, etc. -- i.e. the currencies of the main countries listed by the Economist -- have

[PEN-L] Liquidity trap?

http://www.afponline.org/pub/pdf/Liquidity_2007.pdf And an article by Joseph Stiglitz on the Shanghai Daily. Enjoy! http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/print.asp?id=326522

[PEN-L] Contagiousness

Scholar-googling recent works on the structure of the credit system in the U.S., I bumped into this 2006 paper by NYU Stern's Edward I Altman on the recent boom of credit junk: http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~ealtman/Are-Historical-Models-Still-Relevant1.pdf

[PEN-L] North American worker cooperation

On July 30, the 1,293 unionized workers (plus 305 temps) of Minera Cananea in Cananea Sonora, Mexico went on strike. They demand more safety in the mines, the opening of a local clinic to provide them with medical care, and recognition of their union representatives. They've been attacked

Re: [PEN-L] Q A on credit crisis

Doug wrote: that's why there are central banks. They pump cash and make soothing sounds and hope the worst blows over. And it may or may not blow over. I have no idea, in this particular episode, whether the actions of the central bankers in the last two days succeeded in calming the

[PEN-L] Phil Izo (WSJ) interviews David Resler (Nomura) and David Wessel (WSJ)

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid452319854?bctid=1137970231 Phil Izo (WSJ reporter): Do you think it [the central banks' injection of liquidity] is gonna be enough? DW (WSJ): I have no idea whether it's gonna be enough. I suspect they don't know whether it's gonna be enough.

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