In October 1996, academic pragmatist superstar Richard Rorty (along with
Cornel West and Betty Friedan) shared the platform with AFL-CIO head John
Sweeny at a teach-in held at Columbia University which was attended by
several thousand students, unionists and assorted activists. Many of us,
The problem that Louis seems to be noting is that a move is afoot to make
social security means tested which converts it to a welfare program. Rorty
doesn't realize that once a program becomes a program for the needy, that it is
doomed.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State
Yes: Could someone please explain why Doug and Lou are suddenly being
nice-nice?
Edwin (Tom) Dickens
Chris Burford wrote:
At 17:32 06/03/00 -0500, Doug wrote:
Louis Proyect wrote:
Actually, I can't think of a more lucid presentation of Keynsian and
post-Keynsian economics than in
Yes: Could someone please explain why Doug and Lou are suddenly being
nice-nice?
Edwin (Tom) Dickens
What's difficult to understand? I regard Doug as one of the finest young
(well, nearly young) economists in the US, if not the world. On politics I
trust my own judgement more than I do his,
I think that everyone on the list is pleased with this level of discourse.
Yes: Could someone please explain why Doug and Lou are suddenly being
nice-nice?
Edwin (Tom) Dickens
What's difficult to understand? I regard Doug as one of the finest young
(well, nearly young) economists
On Behalf Of Max Sawicky
I happen not to put much stock in the so-called
marginal implicit tax rate. I don't think people
making $16,500 determine whether they will optimize
by moving to $16,501 or $16,499. The main thing
under the EITC is that, for those eligible, they
have more income
Louis, Keynes wrote about this in detail. His idea of a liquidity trap, as he
called it, was frequently ridiculed, but most economists admit that lowering
interest rates does not have as great an impact as increasing them.
Louis Proyect wrote:
I agree that this sort of action can tighten the
Edwin Dickens wrote:
Yes: Could someone please explain why Doug and Lou are suddenly being
nice-nice?
Hey Hey Hey. As when a pitcher is working on a no-hitter -- no one
says anything for fear of jinxing him.
Carrol
Yes: Could someone please explain why Doug and Lou are suddenly being
nice-nice?
Edwin (Tom) Dickens
I've modeled this. It follows a sinusoidal pattern
with sunspots and orgones as shift parameters.
mbs
Well I thought that you were arguing that earnings tests were OK because the
system had survived that long with them. This also counters Michael's point. But
if you are not arguing that earnings tests are OK because the system has
survived politically with them my analogy is not at all
On Behalf Of Max Sawicky
I happen not to put much stock in the so-called
marginal implicit tax rate. . . .
NN:
That's one main thing, but I think you are falling into serious
number-crunching wonkery if you don't think it matters to a person that when
they get a raise, the government takes a
Louis Proyect wrote:
Yes: Could someone please explain why Doug and Lou are suddenly being
nice-nice?
Edwin (Tom) Dickens
What's difficult to understand? I regard Doug as one of the finest young
(well, nearly young) economists in the US, if not the world. On politics I
trust my own
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jim Devine
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 4:11
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:16795] Re: Market failure again
David McMullen writes:
I feel very comfortable with the concept [of government
On Behalf Of Max B. Sawicky
[mbs] A concern with marginal tax rates is founded on behavior.
My skepticism rests on the question of behavioral effects.
Certainly a raise that is consumed by the Gov is demoralizing.
Whether someone has the flexibility and inclination to change
their work
. . .
The problem is if you want to do an earned income tax
credit (or a negative income tax), the more you give, the
more you have to take away, and the higher the implicit
marginal tax rate must be in the take-away zone.
If you want a low marginal rate at the bottom, you must
dispense
At 00:15 07/03/00 +, I wrote:
A snap telephone opinion poll for the Guardian tonight reports him to be
over 40 % ahead of his nearest rival, Dobson, who has 13%, with the
Conservative candidate Norris on 11%.
Whoops! I have already slandered him. It must be my New Labour proclivities!
Ken Livingstone has taken the plunge, broken his word, and announced he is
standing for the new post of Mayor of London, against the official Labour
candidate Frank Dobson.
A snap telephone opinion poll for the Guardian tonight reports him to be
over 40 % ahead of his nearest rival, Dobson, who
Putin's first interview with a foreign journalist since he became acting
president was clearly carefully set up with David Frost, and timed just
before the Presidential elections later this month.
It aimed to explain Russia's war in Chechnya in a favourable light and
reopen cooperation rather
10:35 04/03/00
Mention of Jones should be banned from PEN-L until he
sends me my lagavullin. And this is entirely altruistic
on my part, since I don't drink.
mbs
Just for this I'm gonna resub to to Pen-L and Lbo and I'll find a butt of
virtual Malmsey to drown MBS in. Sorry, Max, but I
Can someone please explain to me hwta is the perspective of
Post-Keynesian and Keynesian on limits to economic growth (i.e is it
optimistic or pessimistic) and why? Also how do these perspectives
express value?
Also, what year did the Keynesian and Post-Keynesian thinking start
and end?
Regards
BLS DAILY REPORT, FRIDAY, MARCH 3, 2000
RELEASED TODAY: The unemployment rate was little changed in February at 4.1
percent. Payroll employment edged up by 43,000, following a large increase
in January (384,000). Average hourly earnings increased by 4 cents over the
month and by 3.6 percent
This uninformed post can best be understood as
a futile effort to deny that non-revolutionaries
have a serious interest in reducing inequality
and supporting the working class. There must be
a lot of grounds for criticizing Rorty, but none
of them are found in this post.
LP:
. . . there has
I think it would be more accurate to say that the political implications of
Rorty's column are up for grabs. Under the best circumstances, universal social
programs--and Social Security is about as close to a universal social program
as we have in this country--should have their benefits taxed
[mbs] Evidentally LP hasn't heard of the AFL's campaign
on behalf of the strawberry workers in CA. One might
criticize the manner in which this campaign was
prosecuted, but "virtually no movement" is not
a remotely accurate characterization of what was
attempted.
When the UFW organized grape
I absolutely agree with this in the sense that we are dealing with a
"broken line." In essence, the proposed legislation has to be seen in the
context of the overall attack on Social Security. It has been a pet
hobbyhorse of the Republicans and the corporate elite for many years. So
when
I'm passing along this note from Fred Lee. I agree with him about the
subscription. I'm not sure why the journal has been turned over to
Elsevier, but the publisher is the worst pirate in a very better crew.
As a general principle, as library chairman for my department, I try to
avoid
Max, the tone of your note is overly contentious. Try not to call somebody
uninformed even if you think your information is better than that of the other
person. Misinformed is probably worse.
Max Sawicky wrote:
This uninformed post can best be understood as
a futile effort to deny that
At 10:45 AM 3/6/00 +0200, you wrote:
Can someone please explain to me hwta is the perspective of
Post-Keynesian and Keynesian on limits to economic growth (i.e is it
optimistic or pessimistic) and why? Also how do these perspectives
express value?
I doubt that the Post Keynesians (note the lack
Louis:
But it is not anti-entitlement rhetoric. It is rhetoric against a particular
threshold for mandating taxes against the more affluent elderly, which, as Max
said, in the context of a screed against growing income inequality, is an entirely
different matter. To pursue the logic of your
Just picked up Walter Mosley's _Workin' on the Chain Gang: Shaking off the
Dead Hand of History_ (Library of Contemporary Thought, Ballantine Books,
2000). Mosley is the author of the Easy Rawlins Mystery series and other
fiction. The worthy quotable material in this is much more than I can
I guess I sort of split the difference with Lou Max on this. It's
nice, as Max said, to see someone talking about inequality on the
op-ed page of the NYT; it's virtually disappeared as a political
issue (probably because liberals were happy to condemn it when they
could blame it on Reagan
Louis Proyect wrote,
. . . the retirement of the enormous baby boom generation starting in
slightly more than a decade. . .
I have an announcement to make. Two years ago, my friend Charles died of
cancer at the age of 51. My 48-year old cousin drove out of town and took
an overdose after
I guess I sort of split the difference with Lou Max on this. It's
nice, as Max said, to see someone talking about inequality on the
op-ed page of the NYT; it's virtually disappeared as a political
issue (probably because liberals were happy to condemn it when they
could blame it on Reagan
Louis wrote:
... In essence, the proposed legislation has to be seen in the
context of the overall attack on Social Security. It has been a pet
hobbyhorse of the Republicans and the corporate elite for many years.
I'm not going to talk about social security, but I think that the phrase
"the
Jim Devine wrote:
on the subject of SS, is it true that Reagan and Bush the Father
(and Clinton?) packed the SS trustees with anti-SS types? Is that
where the unrealistic predictions of the SS system's demise come
from?
Quoting from the 1999 SS Trustees report
Chris Burford [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/06/00 03:32AM But he should be warned
that Michael Perelman has instigated a draconian
code of civilised discourse, violations of which may lead to a warning or
suspension.
**
CB: Were the Draconians or the Vandals or the Philistines really
Add to the required reading list:
Adolph Reed, Jr. (ed.), 1999, _Without Justice for All:
The New Liberalism and Our Retreat from Racial Equality_, Westview
Press.
Especially (having not yet finished, thus so
far) the contributions of Stephen Steinberg on occupational apartheid in
the
Marilyn Moon is a fairly progressive economist who specializes on poverty.
I have not seen any of her recent writings, so maybe she caught the
neo-liberal contagion.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I wrote:
on the subject of SS, is it true that Reagan and Bush the Father (and
Clinton?) packed the SS trustees with anti-SS types? Is that where the
unrealistic predictions of the SS system's demise come from?
Doug writes:
Quoting from the 1999 SS Trustees report
Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/06/00 12:33PM
I heard from a semireliable source that Reagan spends his days raking
leaves around the pool. An aide spreads out the leaves, Reagan makes
a circuit around the pool, the aide gathers up the leaves, and
re-spreads them, Ron re-rakes
On Behalf Of Michael Perelman
The problem that Louis seems to be noting is that a move is afoot to make
social security means tested which converts it to a welfare
program. Rorty
doesn't realize that once a program becomes a program for the
needy, that it is
doomed.
Michael, I think you
I don't know anything about Kellison, but Marilyn Moon is the author of
various Urban Institute monographs--typically, at the 51st percentile
(moving right to left) of U.S political opinion.
Joel Blau
Doug Henwood wrote:
Jim Devine wrote:
on the subject of SS, is it true that Reagan and
While I agree with Louis' critique of Rorty I don't see any evidence given that
the AFL-CIO supports Rorty's position. Rorty's logic would lead to means
testing but in itself I don't see how it implies anything one way or the other
about privatisation. Does the AFL-CIO support privatisation?
Max, the tone of your note is overly contentious. Try not to call somebody
uninformed even if you think your information is better than that of the other
person. Misinformed is probably worse.
I would rather be called "misinformed" than
"uninformed"--"misinformed" at least implies that I have
Ken:
While I agree with Louis' critique of Rorty I don't see any evidence given
that
the AFL-CIO supports Rorty's position. Rorty's logic would lead to means
testing but in itself I don't see how it implies anything one way or the
other
about privatisation. Does the AFL-CIO support privatisation?
I was wondering if you could give any insight into the mindset of Reich
and other relatively intelligent mainstream or liberal political and
economic commentators; is Reich for example, any more insightful in
private than in public and is he aware of heterodox work?
Same questions regarding
So how long did the US survive with slavery, with no voting rights for blacks or
women.
Is that an argument for slavery, etc.?
Nathan wrote:
Social Security survived for sixty-five years with the earnings test, so it
is more likely part of the reason for its resiliency not a hindrance as
Keynesians and Post Keynesians are basically optimistic with regard to
growth (with respect to environmental matters. Capitalist growth absent
government stimulus is another matter).There are some interesting possible
points of contact between (some aspects ofsome types of) PK economics and
On Behalf Of Ken Hanly
So how long did the US survive with slavery, with no voting
rights for blacks or
women.
Is that an argument for slavery, etc.?
Ken, this is just a bizarre analogy. Michael argues that earnings tests
endanger SS's political survivability; I point out that it has
On Behalf Of Michael Perelman
I sympathize with much of the rest that you wrote, except for
your defense of
the Democrats. I will not go into that space because we have
already rehashed
much of that discussion.
Boy, the one time I condemn the Democratic "capitulation" to the Right and
Actually, I can't think of a more lucid presentation of Keynsian and
post-Keynsian economics than in Doug Henwood's "Wall Street" which covers
Kenyes, Minsky and others in depth.
Speaking of "Wall Street", I wonder if Doug can correct an impression that
I have. In dismissing Hilferding's
Correction:
Speaking of "Wall Street", I wonder if Doug can correct an impression that
I have. In dismissing Hilferding's "Finance Capital", you state that among
some of the more erroneous conclusions found there is that interest rates
can NOT impact the business cycle. This obviously is in line
I was wondering if anyone could give insight into the mindset of
relatively intelligent mainstream or liberal political and
economic commentators; are Kuttner and Reich, for example, aware of and
sympathetic to heterodox work?
Same questions regarding any others you can think of. Whom would PEN
BLS DAILY REPORT, THURSDAY, MARCH 2, 2000
RELEASED TODAY: The unemployment rates in all four regions and 31 states
posted small declines in January. The national jobless rate was essentially
unchanged at 4.0 percent. Nonfarm employment increased in 29 states and the
District of Columbia. ...
A basic feature about Social Security that seems
to be under-appreciated is that it is already
'means-tested' to a degree. It's not an either/
or proposition. First of all, the benefit formula
is redistributive, which is the same thing for
practical purposes as 'means-tested.' It just
happens
Louis Proyect wrote:
In dismissing Hilferding's "Finance Capital", you state that among
some of the more erroneous conclusions found there is that interest rates
can impact the business cycle.
In fairness to Hilferding, he wrote that book when he was 27 years old.
He was executed by the
It looks to me like interest rates are important vis a vis the business
cycle witness Volker's rate hike in the early 80's which had profound
effects on the U.S. and world economy
Sam Pawlett
I agree that this sort of action can tighten the money supply and create a
recession. But I am
friend who sent below to me didn't identify source... Michael Hoover
E-tailers aren't the only ones cashing in on the online retail craze
universities are also getting in on the action. More colleges are
offering e-commerce majors in response to growing demand for workers
with a
On Behalf Of Max Sawicky
Fourth, we have an Earned Income
Tax credit, the base for which is the same
as that for the payroll tax, so there is already
an offset to the payroll tax for those with incomes
below $30K or so.
I am glad to see everybody against means-testing.
But consistency
Louis Proyect wrote:
Actually, I can't think of a more lucid presentation of Keynsian and
post-Keynsian economics than in Doug Henwood's "Wall Street" which covers
Kenyes, Minsky and others in depth.
Why thanks. I'm pretty hard on old Maynard, too, just in case people
think I've gone
Jim Devine wrote:
In other words, the low-ball estimates of SS revenues (predicting
bankruptcy) reflect the Clinton administration's political
perspective?
They declining growth estimates have a long history. Quoting myself
from "Antisocial Insecurity" in LBO #87 (gee, Jim, don't you
I thought that this stuff had been put to rest.
Richardson_D wrote:
BLS DAILY REPORT, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 1,2000
More than three years after concluding that the Consumer Price Index
overstated inflation by 1.1 percentage points a year, a group of prominent
economists says changes made to the
NEWMAN!
" . . . during the phaseout of EITC,
for those making above $13,000 per year with a couple of kids, they face
something like a 35% tax rate from FICA plus EITC phaseout on all additional
income, . . .
It just so happens that I'm finishing a paper
now w/Bob Cherry on expanding the EITC
Max, this is a very informative post. Quite a few people complain about paying
school taxes because they do not have any children in school. Here in Chico, we
finally passed a school bond on the fourth try. But it was close to failing
again.
I worry that the same could happen to Social
Students in Principles often learn Paul Sweezy's "kinked demand curve" for
analyzing oligopolistic markets. An analogous framework can be useful for
thinking about an interest rate investment relation--not as a functional
relationship, but as a "rules of thumb" type approach: raising interest
Max, this is a very informative post. Quite a few people complain about
paying school taxes because they do not have any children in school. Here
in Chico, we finally passed a school bond on the fourth try. But it was
close to failing again.
I worry that the same could happen to Social
Doesn't JMK's liquidity trap explain Japan better
than a kinked interest rate curve?
OTOH, I suppose keynes doesn't explain the japanese
reluctance to spend very well. Anybody know their
'full-employment budget deficit' these days?
mbs
Students in Principles often learn Paul Sweezy's
At 17:32 06/03/00 -0500, Doug wrote:
Louis Proyect wrote:
Actually, I can't think of a more lucid presentation of Keynsian and
post-Keynsian economics than in Doug Henwood's "Wall Street" which covers
Kenyes, Minsky and others in depth.
Why thanks. I'm pretty hard on old Maynard, too, just in
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