Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-06 Thread Michael Perelman
Some of this thread reminds me of just what is wrong with our academic style. Heartfield seems adapt at appropriating some very important texts and turning them into silliness. I would like merely at this time to interject a few questions. 1. If more slaves died from disease during the Middle

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-06 Thread Michael Perelman
Louis Proyect wrote: 1) Dee Brown -- Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee 2) Peter Mathiessen -- In the Spirit of Crazy Horse 3) Peter Mathiessen -- Indian Country Matthiessen, Peter [2 t's also wrote, at least I thought it was him, maybe someone else can correct me] a book with a title with

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-05 Thread Sid Shniad
Louise Erdrich. Great author. Wonderful insights. Love Medicine is the second title. Sid I liked "Bingo Palace". I can't remember the woman's name who wrote it, she also wrote Heart Medicine? (or Love Medicine?) or something like that and "Beets... something" I know it's very current,

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-05 Thread anzalone/starbird
I liked "Bingo Palace". I can't remember the woman's name who wrote it, she also wrote Heart Medicine? (or Love Medicine?) or something like that and "Beets... something" I know it's very current, were you looking for olden days stories? I'll dig you up a better reference if you don't mind

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-05 Thread William S. Lear
On Mon, January 5, 1998 at 13:23:13 (-0500) Doug Henwood writes: Thanks to everyone who's supplied titles on Indians. Most have been about their decimation by the Europeans - I'm more interested in stuff about their social lives - work, kinship, property, etc. Any ideas? You might try: Alvin M.

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-05 Thread Robert Saute, CUNY Grad Center
Doug, You might want to look at: Klein, Laura Lilian Ackerman (eds.) Women and Power in Native North America (1995 Norman, OK) Bernstein, David J. Prehistoric Subsistence on the Southern New England Coast (1993 San Diego) Simmons, Wm. S. The Narragansett (1989 NY) Sharer, Robert

Re: Marx on Native Americans -Reply

1998-01-05 Thread Tim Stroshane
There was a book in the late 70s or early 80s called KEEPERS OF THE GAME by an anthropologist (Calvin ???) whose last name I cannot remember. He makes a very interesting and HIGHLY controversial argument about how the tribes in the northeast and northwest (that is, what we now refer to as the

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-05 Thread Peter Bohmer
See the book edited by Annette James, "The State of Native America". It was published by South End press in 1992 or 1993. there ar many excellent articles dealing with land, fishing rights, water, governance, and resistance. On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Doug Henwood wrote: Thanks to everyone who's

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-05 Thread Bill Burgess
Doug Henwood wrote: Can anyone recommend anything good to read on Native Americans/Indians? I found Ronald Wright's _Stolen Continents_ a real education. His account of the Spanish conquest is incredible. If I remember correctly, Wright estimates that 9/10s of the Indian population died

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-05 Thread James Michael Craven
PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Marx on Native Americans In-Reply-To: Pine.SUN.3.95.980105090811.358C-10@merlin References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-asci

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-05 Thread Doug Henwood
Thanks to everyone who's supplied titles on Indians. Most have been about their decimation by the Europeans - I'm more interested in stuff about their social lives - work, kinship, property, etc. Any ideas? Doug

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-04 Thread Patrick Bond
A comment on this thread, from near Zimbabwe: Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:56:43 + Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Louis: These questions are popping up everywhere in the world today. The NY Times reported that Mugabe is threatening to finally expropriate the rich white settlers

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-04 Thread Doug Henwood
Can anyone recommend anything good to read on Native Americans/Indians? I notice lots of people here on the Spoons Marxism lists using "Indians." Is "Native American" just not sticking? Doug

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-04 Thread James Michael Craven
Response: Even granted that Indians did not historically have a concept of private ownership of land or institutions of private property governing establishing basis of legitimacy of ownership of land, capitalist society does and from the standpoint of the core criteria and values for

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-04 Thread James Michael Craven
: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Marx on Native Americans In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Listprocess

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-04 Thread Louis Proyect
At 03:17 PM 1/4/98 -0500, you wrote: Can anyone recommend anything good to read on Native Americans/Indians? I notice lots of people here on the Spoons Marxism lists using "Indians." Is "Native American" just not sticking? Doug 1) Dee Brown -- Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee 2) Peter Mathiessen

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-04 Thread James Michael Craven
-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Marx on Native Americans In-Reply-To: l03102805b0d59e7b129d@[166.84.250.86] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-asci

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-04 Thread William S. Lear
On Sun, January 4, 1998 at 15:17:35 (-0500) Doug Henwood writes: Can anyone recommend anything good to read on Native Americans/Indians? I notice lots of people here on the Spoons Marxism lists using "Indians." Is "Native American" just not sticking? Here are some I have found helpful: Ward

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-04 Thread Robin Hahnel
Doug Henwood wrote: Can anyone recommend anything good to read on Native Americans/Indians? Ward Churchill is about as much native american as most white radicals can handle. He has written much to challenge white radicals' views and stands on native american issues. I always find his

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-04 Thread Sid Shniad
Blaut made the memorable statement that indigenous people weren't conquered -- they were _infested_! (This drew a hearty laugh from a Guatemalan friend of mine.) Sid If I'm remembering correctly, James Blaut says in The Colonizer's Model of the World (Guilford, a couple of years ago) that

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-03 Thread James Heartfield
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes What we differ on is the substantial question of social justice. You side with the land thieves, I side with the victims. You confuse questions of history with questions of policy. I'm not taking sides with anyone in history

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-03 Thread James Heartfield
Again it is difficult to talk sense into Louis when accusations like FBI membership collusion with genocide and other emotionalism is in the air, but here goes. In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes The American Indians did not have a concept of land ownership

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-03 Thread Louis Proyect
Heartfield: And yet, strangely, afforded native Americans no protection whatsoever against the invasion of these lands and the slaughter of their inhabitants. Native American land rights proved about as 'real' as the rights of Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. This is baloney. Native American land

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-03 Thread James Heartfield
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes The law that ceded tens of thousands of acreage to the Seminoles in 1938 I see. As Marcel Marien said of the Belgian Resistance, native land rights came 'after the war'. I don't really see how a law passed in 1938 changes the

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-02 Thread James Heartfield
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Heartfield: In Particular Marx and Engels both considered native American society backward technologically and morally, as the blood-ties of kinship groups (gens) stifled individual personality. I think at this point we

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-02 Thread Louis Proyect
Heartfield: In Particular Marx and Engels both considered native American society backward technologically and morally, as the blood-ties of kinship groups (gens) stifled individual personality. I think at this point we understand what Heartfield means by "individual personality". It has

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-02 Thread James Heartfield
This is a bit of a mess, because Louis is angry about something that gets in the way of his thinking, but here goes: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Or was "ennobling" American Indians just a convenient fiction? Isn't that what I said? Fictitious. Property

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-02 Thread Louis Proyect
Heartfield: This is a bit of a mess, because Louis is angry about something that gets in the way of his thinking, but here goes: James, it not a bit of a mess. Your post is a complete mess. You should be aware that PEN-L is not the Spoons Lists. Over on the Spoons Lists you can feel free to make

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-02 Thread James Heartfield
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Over here much more rigor is necessary. and then It is the genocidal exploitation of Native Americans and African slaves that made US capitalism possible. I was unaware of the exploitation of Native Americans in the North.

Re: Marx on Native Americans

1998-01-02 Thread Louis Proyect
Heartfield: I was unaware of the exploitation of Native Americans in the North. One might have thought that reservations and genocide made exploitation impossible, but perhaps in your scientific rigour you have discovered some new form of exploitation. I am referring to the general sense of