On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 07:26:39AM -0700, Ovid wrote:
--- Michael G Schwern [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It declares the inputs and outputs, not the business rule.
OK, but this all sidesteps one very important question: has anyone on
this list ever *really* used FIT? I'm not talking about toy
Eric Wilhelm wrote:
On Thursday 27 March 2008 12:42:13 Eric Wilhelm wrote:
What do you need to test that your users need to drive?
Business rules.
So, what is a good example of such a business rule? I posit that
payroll does not count because the user could more concisely write the
rule
# from Michael G Schwern
# on Friday 28 March 2008 00:30:
So, what is a good example of such a business rule? I posit that
payroll does not count because the user could more concisely write
the rule in a declarative form, this isn't Java, c.
I'm confused by that response. FIT is
# from chromatic
# on Thursday 27 March 2008 16:53:
Or, is this one of those complicated things where worse is better
because we don't like better better than worse?
I still think you're overthinking this. Think of FIT as a way for
non-programmers to write executable specifications in
Ok, let's clear this all up.
FIT is not about expressing business rules.
FIT is a tool which allows the customer to add test cases in a way they're
comfortable with. A programmer still has to write the logic behind those
tests (called a Fixture), but it allows a customer to easily add more
--- Michael G Schwern [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
FIT is not about expressing business rules.
snip
That's it. That's all FIT is.
OK, but this all sidesteps one very important question: has anyone on
this list ever *really* used FIT? I'm not talking about toy examples.
I'm not talking about I
# from Ovid
# on Friday 28 March 2008 07:26:
Those of them who have worked with FIT are also those who object to it
the loudest. Too painful to implement and maintain. Too difficult
to train users. Too difficult to get users to participate. Too
little bang for the buck compared to other
On Friday 28 March 2008 10:50:07 Eric Wilhelm wrote:
You've told us what the developers want to do. What do the *users* want
to do? Is there any buy-in from the users for participating in the qa?
Do you *need* them participating in the qa (vs say participating in the
encoding of business
# from chromatic
# on Friday 28 March 2008 11:03:
How do we know we've built the right thing?
If the users don't really care about that question, give them a copy
of GNU Hello World on a nice DVD, take the money, and run.
As an internal developer, your users might *not* care but your boss
There were already many good answers here, let me just add my perspective
probably just repeating the previous comments.
I am not a Fit expert and I have never used that with real customers
but I did use
something resembling it as I think all of you have.
Occasionally I organize a QA Day for QA
On Friday 28 March 2008 14:22:32 Gabor Szabo wrote:
I think chromatic mentioned that you should use FIT for acceptance tests
and not for unit tests.
May I disagree here.
I think every test is a unit test. Just the size of the units is different.
Unit test has a very precise meaning in this
On 28/03/2008, chromatic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Friday 28 March 2008 14:22:32 Gabor Szabo wrote:
I think chromatic mentioned that you should use FIT for acceptance tests
and not for unit tests.
May I disagree here.
I think every test is a unit test. Just the size of the units is
Has anyone here ever succesfully used FIT testing? I was at one of the
first presentations of FITness a long time ago, but the example Ward
Cunningham gave was of a calculator. I thought the idea was neat, but
how would I implement it?
We've considered FITness testing, but so far, the only
# from Ovid
# on Thursday 27 March 2008 10:52:
but the example Ward
Cunningham gave was of a calculator. I thought the idea was neat, but
how would I implement it?
What do you need to test that your users need to drive? How can it be
expressed in a non-tedious and yet understandable way that
On Thursday 27 March 2008 12:42:13 Eric Wilhelm wrote:
What do you need to test that your users need to drive?
Business rules.
How can it be expressed in a non-tedious and yet understandable way that
makes them feel like it is a worthwhile process?
That's the guiding design question of FIT
Ovid wrote:
Has anyone here ever succesfully used FIT testing? I was at one of the
first presentations of FITness a long time ago, but the example Ward
Cunningham gave was of a calculator. I thought the idea was neat, but
how would I implement it?
When you say implement it do you mean the
# from chromatic
# on Thursday 27 March 2008 13:02:
On Thursday 27 March 2008 12:42:13 Eric Wilhelm wrote:
What do you need to test that your users need to drive?
Business rules.
So, what is a good example of such a business rule? I posit that
payroll does not count because the user could
On Thursday 27 March 2008 16:30:47 Eric Wilhelm wrote:
# from chromatic
On Thursday 27 March 2008 12:42:13 Eric Wilhelm wrote:
What do you need to test that your users need to drive?
Business rules.
So, what is a good example of such a business rule? I posit that
payroll does not count
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