Re: Perl Training Directory

2001-12-12 Thread Ben Okopnik

On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 12:22:46AM -0500, _brian_d_foy wrote:
 
 'proven' means just what it means when i said it - to determine the
 truth of a statement.  there are plenty of people who claim to be
 Perl programmers or trainers who don't use or teach Perl.  some
 of them even write books about Perl.
 
 you gone too far towards the corporate side of things.  i wasn't
 using buzzwords.  i was speaking English.

Hmm. Not trying to start a war, just curious; does proven mean vetted by
you? I'm sure you're amply qualified to judge the quality of instruction,
etc., but this would severely limit the number of possible provens.

Ben Okopnik
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do.
 -- B. F. Skinner



Re: Perl Training Directory

2001-12-12 Thread Adam Turoff

On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 08:52:04AM -0500, Ben Okopnik wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 12:22:46AM -0500, _brian_d_foy wrote:
  'proven' means just what it means when i said it - to determine the
  truth of a statement.  there are plenty of people who claim to be
  Perl programmers or trainers who don't use or teach Perl.  some
  of them even write books about Perl.
  
  you gone too far towards the corporate side of things.  i wasn't
  using buzzwords.  i was speaking English.
 
 Hmm. Not trying to start a war, just curious; does proven mean vetted by
 you? I'm sure you're amply qualified to judge the quality of instruction,
 etc., but this would severely limit the number of possible provens.

Let's peel back the onion a wee bit, shall we?  This isn't a difficult
issue, nor does it require that we count the number of angels that can
fit on the head of a llama.

Here is the original quote:

On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 01:05:10PM -0800, brian d foy wrote:
 everyone on http://www.perl.org/phbs/training.html has
 a proven record of training and i would not hestiate to
 recommend any of them.  i can't be so sure of other companies, 
 so i don't recommend them.

clarified here:

On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 12:54:19AM -0500, _brian_d_foy wrote:
 no.  proven just means that you actually teach Perl, which is very
 different from will-teach-Perl-if-i-get-paid-to.  as far as www.perl.org
 goes, you should also be able to satisfy more than just a local 
 customer base.

Given these statements, proven record of training in the realm
of Perl would mean to me:
1) you've actually trained people before
2) you've taught them Perl
3) both of these statements are verifiable

This necessarily discounts those who pass themselves off as trainers
when in fact they have done little more than flip slides and read them
aloud -- something *very* different than standing in front of a
group for days at a time, running hands on labs, answering questions
on the spot and imparting some skills to that group.

This also necessarily discounts those who train, but do not train
Perl.  That is, they have an a la carte menu of services that
includes lots of buzzwords, but the trainers don't actually have
competance in all of those areas (at least in Perl, as far as we
are concerned).  Or, they offer Perl training and pass themselves
off as competant, but in fact are not competant (in Perl, as far as
as we are concerned).

Now, can we *PLEASE* stop with the semantic games?  It's not that
difficult of a problem.  I know that brian and I are not the only
ones here who have issues with listing Perl Trainers who are
incapable of locating a syntax error or haven't seen use strict;
before.  (Yes, Virginia, they *do* exist.)

Z.