Apocalypse 1 from Larry

2001-04-03 Thread Nathan Torkington

Larry's approaching perl6 through the Programming Perl book (the Camel).
He's going chapter by chapter through the Camel, writing documents about
the perl6 equivalent concepts.  These missives are known as "Apocalypses",
for reasons best known to Larry. :-)

He's churning through the RFCs, looking through them to deeper issues.
He hopes to emit Apocalypses more-or-less weekly, although some chapters
have fewer RFCs and issues than others.

Enjoy!

Nat
-


Apocalypse 1: The Ugly, the Bad, and the Good

   by Larry Wall
   Apr. 2, 2001

Table of Contents

   o RFC 141: This Is The Last Major Revision
  o RFC 28: Perl should stay Perl
 o RFC 16: Keep default Perl free of constraints such as warnings
   and strict
  o RFC 73: All Perl core functions should return objects
   o RFC 26: Named operators versus functions

   People get scared when they hear the word Apocalypse, but here I mean
   it in the good sense: a Revealing. An Apocalypse is supposed to reveal
   good news to good people. (And if it also happens to reveal bad news
   to bad people, so be it. Just don't be bad.)

   What I will be revealing in these columns will be the design of Perl
   6. Or more accurately, the beginnings of that design, since the design
   process will certainly continue after I've had my initial say in the
   matter. I'm not omniscient, rumors to the contrary notwithstanding.
   This job of playing God is a little too big for me. Nevertheless,
   someone has to do it, so I'll try my best to fake it. And I'll expect
   all of you to help me out with the process of creating history. We all
   have to do our bit with free will.

   "If you look at the history of Perl 6 up to this point, you will see
   why this column is subtitled The Ugly, the Bad, and the Good. The RFC
   process of last year was ugly, in a good sense. It was a brainstorming
   process, and that means it was deliberately ugly-not in the sense of
   incivility, since the RFC process was in fact surprisingly civil, but
   in the sense that there was little coherent design to the suggestions
   in the RFCs. Frankly, the RFCs are all over the map, without actually
   covering the map. There are contradictory RFCs, and there are missing
   RFCs. Many of the RFCs propose real problems but go off at funny
   angles in trying to propose solutions. Many of them patch symptoms
   without curing the underlying ailments.

   I also discovered Larry's First Law of Language Redesign: Everyone
   wants the colon.

   That was the Ugly part. The Bad part was that I was supposed to take
   these RFCs and produce a coherent design in two weeks. I starting out
   thinking I could just classify the RFCs into the good, bad, and ugly
   categories, but somehow most of them ended up in the ugly category,
   because the good ones typically had something wrong with them, and the
   even the bad ones typically indicated a problem that could use some
   thought, even if the solution was totally bogus.

   It is now five months later, and I've been mulling over coherence the
   whole time, for some definition of mulling. Many of you know what
   happens when the size of your Perl process exceeds the size of your
   physical memory-you start thrashing. Well, that's basically what
   happened to me. I couldn't get enough of the problem into my head at
   once to make good progress, and I'm not actually very good at
   subdividing problems. My forte is synthesis, not analysis. It didn't
   help that I had a number of distractions in my life, some of them
   self-inflicted, and some of them not. I won't go into all that. Save
   it for my unauthorized autobiography.

   But now we come to the Good part. (I hope.) After thinking lots and
   lots about many of the individual RFCs, and not knowing how to start
   thinking about them as a whole, it occurred to me (finally!) that the
   proper order to think about things was, more or less, the order of the
   chapters in the Camel Book. That is, the Camel Book's order is
   designed to minimize forward references in the explanation of Perl, so
   considering Perl 6 in roughly the same order will tend to reduce the
   number of things that I have to decide before I've decided them.

   So I've merrily classified all the RFCs by chapter number, and they
   look much more manageable now. (I also restructured my email so that I
   can look at a slice of all the messages that ever talked about a
   particular RFC, regardless of which mailing list the message was on.
   That's also a big help.) I intend to produce one Apocalypse for each
   Chapter, so Apocalypse 1 corresponds to Chapter 1: An Overview of
   Perl. (Of course, in the book, the Overview is more like a small
   tutorial, not really a complete 

Re: Perl culture, perl readabillity

2001-04-03 Thread Dan Sugalski

At 12:00 PM 4/3/2001 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
On Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 09:12:00PM +0200, Kai Henningsen wrote:
  In fact, I've come up with the same idea independently. Except I'd go a
  bit further and claim that only a native English speaker could possibly
  come up with the idea that irregularity is useful.

I'd say that only a linguist could possibly come up with the idea. :)

Nah, there are a lot of different disciplines that would think this. 
Architects, landscape designers, and a variety of mathematicians and 
applied physicists spring to mind... :)

  It's most definitely not.

Then you'll have no problems with these little teasers:

1) Name one perfectly regular natural language. ("Natural" in the sense of
"having native speakers")

2) Explain why, if people *want* regularity, the evolution of natural
languages has tended *away* from regularity in almost all circumstances.

Dunno--the older a language is, the more regular it seems to be. (The rough 
edges get worn off, I assume) While Latin had a reasonably complex set of 
rules, it was more regular than English. Japanese feels the same, though 
I'll grant I've little enough experience with it that my impression might 
be wrong or incomplete.

Irregularity seems to come in with the new, and gets beaten down a bit with 
long usage.

Dan

--"it's like this"---
Dan Sugalski  even samurai
[EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even
  teddy bears get drunk




Re: Perl culture, perl readabillity

2001-04-03 Thread Dan Brian

 In my experience of Japanese (and other languages) it's quite the opposite.
 Speakers get lazy. They cut corners. They omit things. They corrupt verb
 forms. Latin was pretty regular; languages derived from it aren't.

Simon doesn't know anything about Japanese, though. ;)

The evolution of languages isn't exactly stop-and-go. All natural
languages have evolved from something. Irregularities compound.

The exception is word polysemy, which tends to increase with the evolution
of the language. Whether ambiguous contexts are irregular is debatable,
however.




Re: Perl culture, perl readabillity

2001-04-03 Thread Dan Sugalski

At 10:43 PM 4/3/2001 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 05:20:11PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
  Dunno--the older a language is, the more regular it seems to be. (The 
 rough
  edges get worn off, I assume) While Latin had a reasonably complex set of
  rules, it was more regular than English. Japanese feels the same, though
  I'll grant I've little enough experience with it that my impression might
  be wrong or incomplete.

In my experience of Japanese (and other languages) it's quite the opposite.
Speakers get lazy. They cut corners. They omit things. They corrupt verb
forms. Latin was pretty regular; languages derived from it aren't.

Latin wasn't all that regular to start with. I'll grant that it may be an 
outlier on the graph, though, given it was used mainly by the Roman 
Catholic Church for the past millenia or so, putting it in the 
"intellectual" language category for an awfully long time.

The complexities of language seem to get worn down with age and people get 
sloppy with it, but the regularity generally seems to increase because of 
that. The odd forms of words or different cases/tenses/declensions get 
beaten down and more of the language gets wedged into fewer boxes. The 
number of rules for a language seems to tend towards a local minima. (I've 
watched that happen as my kids have learned to talk) Heck, the amount of 
entropy in a language seems to tend towards a local minima.

IANAL, though (and I don't even play one on TV) so I'm not sure these 
observations really hold in the general case. Probably not really 
perl6-language appropriate anymore, either. (I think--might be wrong on 
that one)

Dan

--"it's like this"---
Dan Sugalski  even samurai
[EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even
  teddy bears get drunk