Re: Interfaces

2002-10-08 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 02 Oct 2002 04:12:44 -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote: I like the class Vehicle is interface as a shorthand for declaring every method of a class to be an interface. Perhaps associating a property with a class can be shorthand for associating that property with every method of the

Re: Private contracts?

2002-10-13 Thread chromatic
On Sat, 12 Oct 2002 08:43:46 -0700, Larry Wall wrote: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Graham Barr wrote: : Or even something like : : use Acme[1.0]; Hmm. Looks kinda like a subscript, which could be sliced to give an acceptable version range: use Acme[1;0..]; Might it be possible to say

Re: Generalising properties

2002-10-29 Thread chromatic
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:19:59 -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: So I would like to see able to tag arbitrary information onto just about everything, including files, packages, classes, subroutines, blocks, control structures, statements, lines, expressions, variables and whatever else I've forgotten

Re: perl6-lang Project Management

2002-11-06 Thread chromatic
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 23:18:01 -0800, Allison Randal wrote: If you really want to be involved where the rubber meets the road -- where the abstract design gets tested and every last detail must be fleshed out -- you might contribute to Parrot. It has a good many of the features of the first 5

Re: In defense of zero-indexed arrays.

2002-12-08 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 06 Dec 2002 14:16:43 +, Brad Hughes wrote: In any case, the choice of default base index is less important for Perl than for other languages given how seldom arrays in Perl are accessed by index as opposed to manipulated by push, pop, for $x (@array) loops and such. I slice a lot

Re: Variable Types Vs Value Types

2003-01-08 Thread chromatic
On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 12:21:48 +0100, Rafael Garcia-Suarez wrote: Delegation has drawbacks compared to inheritance : you can't use a object that delegates to class Foo where an instance of Foo is expected. That sounds more like a problem with the polymorphism implementation than an argument

RE: L2R/R2L syntax (was Re: Everything is an object.)

2003-01-11 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:12:12 +, Thom Boyer wrote: 'Course, then I've gotta explain why $x = 7 ~ 63; doesn't evaluate to 9 Surely because you haven't yet overloaded gozinta for the Number class! -- c

Re: A6: objects and/or types (was: P6FC)

2003-03-16 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:46:31 +, Larry Wall wrote: If you say $foo.isa(Even) it doesn't just check to see if $foo is a member of class Int, but it also checks the constraints on type Even, and returns false unless $foo is an even integer. We could still call Even a class if we

Re: A6: Quick questions as I work on Perl6::Parameters

2003-03-25 Thread chromatic
On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:43:00 +, Luke Palmer wrote: Damian wrote: caller :{.label eq 'MAINLOOP}; Errr what is that odd and disturbing notation? I don't recall ever seeing that. It's vaguely sinister. Must be the moustache operator. -- c

Re: Protocols

2003-07-23 Thread chromatic
On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 04:25 AM, Luke Palmer wrote: In Objective-C: id untyped = somefunction(); idFoo typed = otherfunction(); If you send a message to Ctyped which isn't in the CFoo protocol definition, you get warnings. Depending on the implementation, that assignment might

Re: Protocols

2003-07-24 Thread chromatic
On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 08:49 AM, David Wheeler wrote: On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 05:57 PM, chromatic wrote: The first is a deeper question -- besides inheritance, there's delegation, aggregation, and reimplementation (think mock objects) that can make two classes have equivalent

Re: Protocols

2003-07-24 Thread chromatic
On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 11:17 AM, Austin Hastings wrote: No, I think Java interfaces are a kluge to get around copying a broken type system and the lack of multiple inheritance. Multiple Inheritance != Protocols | Interfaces I quite agree, but I've done enough Java to know that if they

Re: Protocols

2003-07-24 Thread chromatic
On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 05:28 PM, Benjamin Goldberg wrote: If this were Java, the way to do this would be to define a Thingie interface, and then an (archetypical) ThingieObject class... any time that we want to actually *create* Thingies, we would use new ThingieObject, but everywhere

Re: Next Apocalypse

2003-09-15 Thread chromatic
On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 17:39, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The easy-to-optimise case should be the easy-to-type case; otherwise a lot of optimisation that should be possible isn't because the programmers are too inexperienced/lazy/confused to put the closed tags in. The thinking at the last design

Re: Next Apocalypse

2003-09-18 Thread chromatic
On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 07:49 AM, Austin Hastings wrote: Sounds like a potential keyword, or perhaps a ubiquitous method, or both. But how to differentiate sealed under optimization versus sealed under inheritance? I don't understand the question. The point is not for module authors

Re: Next Apocalypse

2003-09-18 Thread chromatic
On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 12:33 PM, Gordon Henriksen wrote: Ah, shouldn't optimization be automatic? Much preferrable to provide opt-out optimizations instead of opt-in optimizations. No. That's why I tend to opt-out of writing in C and opt-in to writing Perl. Perl (all versions) and

Re: What to do....

2003-11-14 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2003-11-14 at 22:23, Rod Adams wrote: (If there are others working in the shadows back there, please make yourselves heard.) Allison Randal, Dan Sugalski, Hugo van der Sanden, and I usually help out. Can apocalypses be something more along the line of scratches on the wall, that

Re: roles (Was: enums and bitenums)

2003-12-11 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 18:15, Jonathan Lang wrote: Based on the source material pointed to as your inspiration for roles, I'm a little confused as to how roles and classes could be unified. From what I read in the source material, a key point of a role (well, they weren't actually calling it

Re: Vocabulary

2003-12-16 Thread chromatic
On Tue, 2003-12-16 at 12:06, Michael Lazzaro wrote: My own first instinct would be that the run-time extensibility of a particular interface/class would simply be a trait attached to that class... by default, classes don't get it. That doesn't sound very dynamic. At the post-OSCON design

Re: A modest question

2004-01-06 Thread chromatic
On Tue, 2004-01-06 at 22:26, Austin Hastings wrote: So on the grand balance of utility, what are the metrics that traits are supposed to help improve? Two big ones: - naming collections of behavior that are too fine-grained to fit into classes cleanly - enabling finer-grained

Re: A modest question

2004-01-07 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 00:43, Jonathan Lang wrote: Maybe as an alternative to role Stringify {must stringify();} sub print_it (Stringify $thingie) {print $thingie.stringify();} you might be able to say sub print_it ($thingie must stringify()) {print $thingie.stringify();}

RE: A modest question

2004-01-09 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 16:24, Jonathan Lang wrote: In this example, there's no difference between the Dog and Tree roles; however, this would almost certainly not be the case most of the time - at the very least, a class with a Dog role would have @.legs, while a class with the Tree role would

Re: Traits: to renew OO inheritance in a hacker style discussion

2004-02-12 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-02-12 at 05:52, Aaron Sherman wrote: Perhaps I'm slow, but I don't see the difference between a trait and a Java interface other than the fact that traits appear to be more of a run-time construct. The easy answer is that interfaces completely suck while traits don't. :)

Re: Traits: to renew OO inheritance in a hacker style discussion

2004-02-12 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-02-12 at 11:49, Larry Wall wrote: What I'm currently thinking about is a does predicate that tells you if an object/class does a particular role completely. If you pull part of a role into a class, it returns false, because it doesn't do the complete role. However, if you use

The Problem Roles Try To Solve

2004-02-13 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2004-02-13 at 11:02, Aaron Sherman wrote: On Thu, 2004-02-12 at 14:03, chromatic wrote: The easy answer is that interfaces completely suck while traits don't. :) Ok, so what you're saying is that they're solving for exactly the same thing, but you don't like the Java

Re: Traits: to renew OO inheritance in a hacker style discussion

2004-02-22 Thread chromatic
On Sun, 2004-02-22 at 11:34, stevan little wrote: One thing that I noticed was that the authors seem to not intend Traits to be thought of as being like Classes. As a matter of fact they distinguish Traits from Classes in their Trait Language (contained in the above paper). So the idea of

Re: Perl 6 timeline?

2004-02-26 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-02-26 at 11:50, Mark J. Reed wrote: Cool! But now I'm a little confused - what happened to Apocalypses 8 through 11? :) They were: - 8, References - 9, Data Structures - 10, Packages - 11, Modules Since 12, Objects is more important (and covers

Re: Perl 6 timeline?

2004-02-26 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-02-26 at 13:42, Simon Cozens wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Larry Wall) writes: It's the coherence that I can't delegate, and if I tried to, we would certainly end up with Second System Syndrome Done Wrong, instead of Done Right. You know, it's statements like this that make it

Re: Perl 6 timeline?

2004-02-26 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-02-26 at 09:31, Aaron Sherman wrote: And in it Apocalypse #26 was mentioned. Above, Larry mentions #11. At first the rate of 1 apolcalypse per month seemed to support the idea that Perl 6 would be defined within the next couple of years. However, trending shows that this function

Re: Mutating methods

2004-03-11 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-03-11 at 13:04, Larry Wall wrote: Well, okay, not a boolean. More like a troolean. Unless it's a falselean. -- c

Re: backticks

2004-04-14 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2004-04-14 at 12:24, Juerd wrote: chromatic skribis 2004-04-14 12:07 (-0700): I think %hash`key makes sense. But I'd like to find out if more people like this idea. How do you request a hash slice with backticks? You don't. There are %foofoo bar and %foo{'foo', 'bar'} already

Re: backticks

2004-04-15 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-04-15 at 12:27, Scott Walters wrote: Without commenting on the rest of the proposal, please allow me to clear up one point: * Rather than eliciting public comment on %hash`foo (and indeed %hashfoo) the proposal is being rejected out of hand This whole thread *is* public comment.

Re: backticks

2004-04-15 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-04-15 at 13:37, Larry Wall wrote: Well, I, for one, think chromatic was right on the money. No matter how right my thoughts might have been, my tone *was* rude and that's not right. Apologies to Scott. -- c

Apocalypse 12

2004-04-16 Thread chromatic
Perl.com has just made A12 available: http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/04/16/a12.html Warning -- 20 pages, the first of which is a table of contents. Enjoy, -- c

Re: A12: Conflicting Attributes in Roles

2004-04-21 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 04:19, Buddha Buck wrote: From one C6PAN module: role Dog { has $.collar; ... } From a third C6PAN module: class PoliceDog does Dog does LawEnforcementOfficer { ... } role LawEnforcementOfficer { method arrest { ... } has $.collar;# for

Re: A12: subtypes that lack methods or roles

2004-04-25 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 21:44, Jonathan Lang wrote: OK: I'm planning on creating a widget which must not make use of any of the indicator functionality of the HList; I don't just want to not use the functionality - I want to have its use forbidden (letting the optimizer go ahead and toss out

A Gentle Reminder of P6Stories

2004-04-29 Thread chromatic
Remember, the non-controversial decisions in A12 and the other Apocalypses, Exegeses, and Synopses are prime fodder to add to the P6 Stories wiki at http://p6stories.kwiki.org/. Good stories and, even better, small test cases with code and expected output make the Perl 6 compiler suite *much*

Re: is rw trait's effect on signature

2004-05-06 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-05-06 at 10:39, Aaron Sherman wrote: The simple case is: sub foo(X $i is rw) {...} class X {...} class Y {...} my Y $var = 'something'; foo($var); In this case, something kind of interesting has to happen. Either the signature checking has

Re: is rw trait's effect on signature

2004-05-06 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-05-06 at 11:24, Dan Sugalski wrote: Well... sort of, but only because you've defined that for perl 6 classes automatically do themselves--you've conflated inheritance and interface. Which is fine, except that it falls down in the face of objects from classes that don't do

RE: is rw trait's effect on signature

2004-05-06 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-05-06 at 13:27, Austin Hastings wrote: I think we had this discussion a year or two ago, and Damian was opposed to the notion that providing the correct methods was equivalent to providing the interface or belonging to the class. His reasoning involved Dog and Tree both sharing

RE: is rw trait's effect on signature

2004-05-06 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2004-05-06 at 13:47, Austin Hastings wrote: Then in your example: The class 'Eh' does A but does not inherit, did you mean: class Eh { method A1 method A2 method A3 } Yes. I had thought that Cdoes CLASS (class implicitly= role) had been rejected. I don't remember in

Re: RFC eq and ==

2004-05-17 Thread chromatic
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 13:35, Pedro Larroy wrote: Would it be a good idea to make ==, and other numeric comparators polymorphic so they can be used also for string comparisons? How does the compiler know which is which? Is 10 a string? Is it a number? Is 10base-T a string? Is it a number?

Re: RFC eq and ==

2004-05-17 Thread chromatic
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 13:51, Pedro Larroy wrote: I thought perl internally would know. At least in perl5 it has to know somehow, since you can $var++ when is numeric and also when it's a string, and behaves different in each case. True. Perl 5 scalars do keep track of the context in which

Re: if not C, then what?

2004-06-30 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2004-06-30 at 18:18, Alexey Trofimenko wrote: P.P.S. do we have a way to imply void context on function inside expression, something like Cscalar, C+, C~, C? do? Sort of a 'meh' operator? I wonder (idly) in which circumstances the context determinator couldn't determinate void

Re: String interpolation

2004-07-21 Thread chromatic
On Tue, 2004-07-20 at 19:35, Luke Palmer wrote: The New Way (tm) to do that would probably be sticking a role onto the array object with which you're dealing: my @foo does separator('//') = (1,2,3,4,5); say [EMAIL PROTECTED]; # 1//2//3//4//5 Shh, no one's let slip the idea of

Re: Why do users need FileHandles?

2004-07-22 Thread chromatic
On Mon, 2004-07-19 at 14:04, David Storrs wrote: Second, I would suggest that it NOT go in a library...this is reasonably serious under-the-hood magic and should be integrated into the core for efficiency. You must have amazingly fast hard drives. -- c

Re: Revision of A12's lookahead notions

2004-08-17 Thread chromatic
On Tue, 2004-08-17 at 12:54, Larry Wall wrote: But we'll just have to shoot anyone who makes a wisecrack like: use parens :lisp; Surely that should have its own pragma: use parenths; -- c

Re: Synopsis 2 draft 1 -- each and every

2004-08-20 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 14:26, Austin Hastings wrote: Dan Hursh wrote: generalimpose scalarimpose list ----- D$foo.eat$foo.bite$foo.gobble N$foo.look$foo.peek$foo.peruse hmm, I don't like eat

What Requires Core Support

2004-09-04 Thread chromatic
On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 18:44, John Siracusa wrote: Without commenting on the issue of single-file bundling... To bring it home, I think packaging and distribution is important enough to warrant a standard, core-supported implementation. I think the specially structured dir of files and its

Re: S5: grammar compositions

2004-09-15 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2004-09-15 at 12:47, Larry Wall wrote: Grammar roles? It seems sensible, having said Here's a better method of type checking and code re-use and Here's a generalization of pattern matching to make it more like programming. Not doing it would be like making closures that can't write to

Re: S5 updated

2004-09-22 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 10:49, Luke Palmer wrote: Let me come right round to my point about perl being open source. Someone has to do the work somewhere, and making it standard or core doesn't change that. It just means that it'll take longer. It also means that there's a possibility that the

Re: Improvements to execution and loading of bytecode programs and modules

2004-11-03 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 20:08, Milscvaer wrote: First, Perl ought to allow bytecode, already compiled, to be loaded via a bytecode equivelant to eval(), if this cannot be done already. Please read through the design documents: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/ Many of these ideas have come

Re: Auto My?

2004-12-19 Thread chromatic
On Sun, 2004-12-19 at 20:25 -0600, Rod Adams wrote: One of the other reasons in favor of the idea was aesthetic. # stuff which declares $x, $z, and $q $x = 4; my $y = 7; $z = 12; my $r = 4543; $q = 121; compared to: # stuff which declares $x, $z, and $q $x = 4; $y = 7; $z =

Re: Containers vs Objects.

2005-02-15 Thread chromatic
On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 14:26 -0600, Rod Adams wrote: The obvious statement I expect to here is Perl's always had Arrays and Hashes. While I'm not sure if they were there for Perl 1.0 (I started w/ Perl 4.xx) They were. So I'm interested in hearing what pushes Arrays and Hashes over the edge

Re: Fun with junctions (was Sets vs Junctions)

2005-02-16 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-02-16 at 08:54 -0800, David Wheeler wrote: And what of .c#? It's an alias for .java. -- c

Re: How are types related to classes and roles?

2005-03-04 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 21:12 +0100, Thomas SandlaƟ wrote: The roles themself beeing the least member of these classes---uninstanciable pure behaviour. The intersection type/role AB is multiple inheritance (or is that roling?): I don't understand the question (I don't recognize the words lubs

Decorating Objects with Roles (was Re: Optional binding)

2005-03-08 Thread chromatic
On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 19:40 -0800, Larry Wall wrote: On Mon, Mar 07, 2005 at 05:56:12PM -0800, David Storrs wrote: : Actually, I guess they would have to be...can you apply a role to a : bare type? : : my int does SelectOutputFile; # I would expect this to fail : my Int does

Re: Decorating Objects with Roles (was Re: Optional binding)

2005-03-08 Thread chromatic
On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 17:39 -0800, Larry Wall wrote: On Tue, Mar 08, 2005 at 03:23:14PM -0800, chromatic wrote: : I could make the argument that it should be possible to decorate an : object with a role. If that means generating a new anonymous class just : to have a vtable to munge, so

[Fwd: Re: Moving the p5 standard library to p6]

2005-03-26 Thread chromatic
Forwarded... On Sat, 2005-03-26 at 12:05 +1100, Andrew Savige wrote: Please note that I am not an expert on any of this, I was just wondering whether we are going to clean up the old p5 library interfaces as part of the move to p6. Or must we support the old p5 library interfaces for

Re: Parameter and trait questions - just how 'only' _is_ 'read-only'?

2005-03-30 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 14:29 -0500, Aaron Sherman wrote: What I do not think should be allowed (and I may be contradicting Larry here, which I realize is taking my life in my hands ;) is violating the compile-time view of the static type tree. That is, you can load an object foo at run-time,

Re: Parameter and trait questions - just how 'only' _is_ 'read-only'?

2005-03-30 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 15:27 -0500, Aaron Sherman wrote: Like I said, if you allow run-time munging of the type interfaces, then you can't tell if this is valid or invalid: my X $a; $a.m(1); you have to allow it always, regardless of the definition of X. In fact, you can

Re: Parameter and trait questions - just how 'only' _is_ 'read-only'?

2005-03-31 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 13:11 -0500, Aaron Sherman wrote: I can't answer most of these well. However... One additional wrinkle is that *anyone* is allowed to declare a class non-cooperative (open or non-final) during *any* part of the compilation ... even after it is declared final? I

Re: Truely temporary variables

2005-04-15 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2005-04-15 at 11:21 -0500, Patrick R. Michaud wrote: On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 09:17:13AM -0700, Larry Wall wrote: Maybe we could define an ok operator that suppresses only the *first* warning produced by its argument(s). Then if you get multiple warnings, you at least get some

Re: $*CWD instead of chdir() and cwd()

2005-04-15 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2005-04-15 at 23:52 +0200, Juerd wrote: Well, after failure it can be cwd() but false without breaking any real code, because normally, you'd never if (cwd) { ... }, simply because there's ALWAYS a cwd. Not always -- try removing a directory that's the pwd of another process. -- c

Re: Parameter and trait questions - just how 'only' _is_ 'read-only'?

2005-03-30 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 18:35 -0500, Aaron Sherman wrote: When the Perl 6 compiler sees: my X $a; $a.m(1); What should it do? Options: * Accept the method call regardless of the definition of X * Accept the method call if it matches the signature from X

Re: BEGIN {...} and IO

2005-06-13 Thread chromatic
On Mon, 2005-06-13 at 17:07 +0200, Ingo Blechschmidt wrote: # No problem: my $data = BEGIN { my $fh = open some_file err...; =$fh; }; # Problem; my $fh = BEGIN { open some_file err... }; # Compile-time filehandle leaked into runtime! say =$fh; Perhaps I'm being

Re: ./method defunct

2005-06-18 Thread chromatic
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 02:11 +0200, Juerd wrote: Why exactly is the slash not acceptable for you? Almost everyone has said they like it. I find it ugly enough that I plan to name my invocants explicitly. -- c

Re: AUTLOAD and $_

2005-06-20 Thread chromatic
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 12:11 +0200, Juerd wrote: I think there exists an even simpler way to avoid any mess involved. Instead of letting AUTOLOAD receive and pass on arguments, and instead of letting AUTOLOAD call the loaded sub, why not have AUTOLOAD do its thing, and then have *perl* call

Re: AUTLOAD and $_

2005-06-20 Thread chromatic
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 16:37 -0600, Luke Palmer wrote: On 6/20/05, chromatic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who says AUTOLOAD will always either call a loaded sub or fail? Uh, what else can it do? It doesn't have to load a sub to return a code reference. I think: class NullObject { sub

Re: AUTLOAD and $_

2005-06-21 Thread chromatic
On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 13:35 +, Luke Palmer wrote: I think people are being pretty closed-minded about closures. I'm pretty closed-minded about writing code that does nothing to prevent the language from doing the wrong thing by default. I already have a fantastic way to write code that

Re: AUTLOAD and $_

2005-06-22 Thread chromatic
there a two character combination somewhere? Poster 6: Shouldn't that be a module somewhere? Poster 7: Shouldn't that be a macro? chromatic: It's ugly. I'll never use it. Damian: Good. That's the point. chromatic: That was a straight line. -- c

Re: Documentation trait / Docstring equiverlent

2005-06-30 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 04:33 +, David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote: I'm just wondering if a documentation trait on subs would be usefull. If we are going to have something like p6explain the doc trait could be used as the source for the infomation for it. p6explain would simply have

Re: Quick OO .isa question

2005-07-11 Thread chromatic
On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 15:16 +0200, Ingo Blechschmidt wrote: Bar.new.isa(Object);# true Bar.new.isa(Class); # false Bar.new.isa(Foo); # true Bar.new.isa(Bar); # true I'd like to go on a tangent to suggest that anyone who uses .isa() in actual real code ought to be

More on Roles, .does(), and .isa() (was Re: Quick OO .isa question)

2005-07-11 Thread chromatic
On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 17:47 -0400, Stevan Little wrote: I actually agree with you on that. But I would like to clarify it to say that: Foo.isa(Bar) # Foo.meta.isa(Bar) || Foo.meta.does(Bar) ... meaning that the .isa() which is supposed to be aliased into the class from .meta is

Re: MML dispatch

2005-07-13 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 17:33 -0400, David Storrs wrote: What is a type besides a named blob of methods and, possibly, data? A label that says how the data is stored internally. For example, compare Int and int. The former is a type and a blob of methods and not necessarily

Subroutine and Method Introspection

2005-07-20 Thread chromatic
A12 and S12 describe introspection on objects and classes. The metaclass instance has the method getmethods() which returns method descriptors. The design specifies several traits queryable through these descriptors. Methods (and subroutines) can take other traits, such as is lvalue or even

Re: Exposing the Garbage Collector

2005-07-23 Thread chromatic
On Sat, 2005-07-23 at 20:41 -0700, Brent 'Dax' Royal-Gordon wrote: Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me, that the way to get at all the instances of a class is to ask the Garbage Collector to do the heavy lifting for us, and ideally I'd like to see this exposed at

Re: say's return value

2005-07-30 Thread chromatic
On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 14:56 +0300, Gaal Yahas wrote: (This introduces a potential semipredicate problem when looking at the return value of a printed 0 or while not using fatal, but the code can use a defined guard.) I don't know if returning the printed string is the right approach, but

Re: Hoping that Params::Validate is not needed in Perl6

2005-08-18 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 23:43 -0500, Dave Rolsky wrote: But I'd really like to get this stuff done at compile time wherever possible. If I write this: validate( credit_card_number: $number ); it should blow up at compile time, right? Does that depend on how closed you want Perl 6 to

Re: Parsing indent-sensitive languages

2005-09-08 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 14:59 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote: I agree that simply using terms like this means indentation grammars are problematic -- or does it? One thing that bothers me is that *people* don't seem to have a great deal of difficulty with them. Why not? People can parse

Re: \(...)?

2005-09-19 Thread chromatic
On Mon, 2005-09-19 at 13:01 +0200, TSa wrote: Why shouldn't there be a lvalue traversal that in the end makes ($x, $y) = \($a, $b); actually mean $x = \$a; $y = \$b; Does this not go from one sequence point (evaluate the rhs sufficiently, then perform the lvalue assignments) to

Re: seeing the end of the tunnel

2005-10-05 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 16:26 +0200, TSa wrote: I recently wrote a Perl 6 design TODO, which was surprizingly small, which enumerated the things to be done before I considered the design of Perl 6 to be finished. Larry replied with a couple more items. The type system is not on this list,

Re: Type annotations

2005-10-07 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 12:49 +0200, Juerd wrote: Ashley Winters skribis 2005-10-06 19:30 (-0700): my Array $a = 97; # dies eventually, but when? Runtime -- cannot coerce Int value to Array It is fully determinable at compile time. 97 will never be compatible with Array, so I see

Re: Type annotations

2005-10-07 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 15:22 -0600, Luke Palmer wrote: On 10/7/05, chromatic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:\ If I added a multisub for Array assignment so that assigning an integer value set the length of the array, would 97 be compatible with Array? You're not allowed to overload assignment

Re: Type annotations

2005-10-07 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 17:43 -0600, Luke Palmer wrote: No, you can't overload assignment at runtime because you can't overload assigment at any time, so says the language spec (well, not any formal spec; so says Larry as far as I remember). I'm wearing my just a programmer, not a denizen of

Re: Proposal to make class method non-inheritable

2005-10-12 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-10-12 at 12:00 -0400, Stevan Little wrote: Usefulness aside, why do Roles and Classes need to be seperate beasts? In the current meta-model prototype, the role system is laid atop the class system so that the following is true: Class is an instance of Class Role is an

Closed Classes Polemic (was Re: What the heck is a submethod (good for))

2005-10-12 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-10-12 at 21:50 +0200, Yuval Kogman wrote: This has even more implications with closed classes to which you don't have source level access, and if this can happen it will happen - i'm pretty sure that some commercial database vendors would release closed source DBDs, for example.

Re: Closed Classes Polemic (was Re: What the heck is a submethod (good for))

2005-10-13 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 02:18 +0200, Yuval Kogman wrote: On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 13:08:27 -0700, chromatic wrote: Closed classes should not exist. At least, they should only exist if the person *running* Perl 6 wants them to exist -- never if merely the class writer wants to close them

Re: [P6L] Closed Classes Polemic (was Re: What the heck is a submethod (good for))

2005-10-14 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 18:36 -0700, Chip Salzenberg wrote: On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 06:13:09PM -0700, chromatic wrote: I just don't want people who merely write a module or class to be able to prevent people who actually use that module or class from using, extending, or poking around

Re: Standard library for perl6? (graphical primitives)

2005-10-15 Thread chromatic
On Sat, 2005-10-15 at 12:45 -0500, Bryan Burgers wrote: What I find exciting about parrot is that (it sounds like to me) you'll be able to run a perl6 file anywhere that has parrot, much like Java. I think what Markus is getting at is for there to be a way to display graphics through parrot

Re: Re(vised): Proposal to make class method non-inheritable

2005-10-18 Thread chromatic
On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 10:16 -0400, Stevan Little wrote: On Oct 18, 2005, at 6:56 AM, Miroslav Silovic wrote: Uhm. I'm not sure either. :) The way I read Larry's mail, multimethods use .isa operator to detect whether $foo belongs to Foo. And for every class, Foo.isa(Foo) is true (this

Re: new sigil

2005-10-20 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2005-10-20 at 10:32 -0500, Steve Peters wrote: The idea of punishing programmers who choose to use certain operating system or locales just doesn't seem right to me. Haven't they already acclimated to the punishment of those operating systems already? -- c

Re: Roles vs. Classes (was Re: Ways to add behavior)

2005-10-26 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-10-26 at 20:29 -0400, Rob Kinyon wrote: I would prefer to use roles as they're closed by default, leaving class to be my powertool, if I need the power. I don't understand this desire; can you explain your reasoning? (NB: closed here, as I use it, still *does not* correspond to

Re: Roles vs. Classes (was Re: Ways to add behavior)

2005-10-26 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-10-26 at 19:22 -0600, Luke Palmer wrote: But we find that many programmers make decisions that trade readability and extensibility for an extra 1% of speed, even when they are writing a command-line frontend to MPlayer[1]. If those people are module writers, then we have a bunch

Re: Ways to add behavior

2005-10-26 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-10-26 at 14:52 -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: LW == Larry Wall [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: LW One wants to coin a word like Qlass. Unfortunately qlass is LW too easy to misread as glass. Oy veh, I'm getting notions of LW the qlass is half empty for a partially instantiated

Re: Roles vs. Classes (was Re: Ways to add behavior)

2005-10-26 Thread chromatic
On Wed, 2005-10-26 at 21:58 -0400, Rob Kinyon wrote: Plus, the argument is a straw man. Instead of: class Some::Class is also { } you would do: class My::Version { does Some::Class; } Problem solved. Don't forget the fun of modifying all existing uses of

Re: $1 change issues [was Re: syntax for accessing multiple versions of a module]

2005-10-26 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2005-10-20 at 17:12 -0700, Nate Wiger wrote: If Perl 6 is going to be successful, this means it must change the fewest key things with the most benefits. I think there's an assumption here that not only do I not hold but I do not even understand. Suppose that I am a game developer

Re: implicitly doing a role

2005-11-04 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 13:15 -0500, Austin Frank wrote: If roles are interfaces, do we want any class that provides an interface consistent with a role to implicitly do the role? That is, if a class fulfills all of the interface requirements of a role without actually saying it does the

Implicit Role Declarations (was Re: implicitly doing a role)

2005-11-08 Thread chromatic
On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 13:15 -0500, Austin Frank wrote: If roles are interfaces, do we want any class that provides an interface consistent with a role to implicitly do the role? That is, if a class fulfills all of the interface requirements of a role without actually saying it does the

Re: Hyphens vs. Underscores

2005-11-16 Thread chromatic
On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 05:31 +0100, Daniel Brockman wrote: This is a very valid concern, but the problem will not arise unless people start mixing these two styles --- something which is very obviously not a good idea. That doesn't mean that people will avoid it, by accident or on purpose.

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