Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
02.09.2015, 16:42, "Robert Strahl via perl6-users": > I don't understand why some people feel so strongly that one-liners should > be strict. That would undermine what a one-liner is — a quick way to get > something done. I use perl5 one-liners very frequently for text processing, > especially when stringing / piping together shell code. When I need to re-use > the code, then I put it into a script and make it strict and bulletproof in > other ways. Declaring variables in the one-liner context makes no sense. I agree, and these are all valid con arguments, but so far I did not have a opportunity to hear any arguments for opposite.
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 05:48:07PM +0200, Carl Mäsak wrote: > Good news! I just pushed a change (with backing from other core > developers) that makes -e strict by default! awesome! thank you Carl! -- Marc Chantreux (eiro on github and freenode) http://eiro.github.com/ http://eiro.github.com/atom.xml "Don't believe everything you read on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
Moritz (), Tux (): I could continue with other Perl 5 deficiencies (no strict by default, Using strict *STILL* is not enabled by default for perl6 one-liners either: $ perl6 -e'my Int $this = 1; $thıs++; say $this;' 1 $ perl6 -Mstrict -e'my Int $this = 1; $thıs++; say $this;' ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e Variable '$thıs' is not declared. Did you mean '$this'? at -e:1 -- my Int $this = 1; ⏏$thıs++; say $this; That, IMHO, is a huge deficiency! lack of easy threading, too many globals, obscure regex syntax), but the individual problems aren't the point. My main point is that large parts of Perl 5 are still stuck in the past, with no good way forward. Good news! I just pushed a change (with backing from other core developers) that makes -e strict by default! commit 5fb81fffa90f90515e663a21987cff484e8260b8 Author: Carl Masak cma...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 28 17:45:25 2015 +0200 strict is now on by default, even for -e This should make (most of) p6u happy. Enjoy! :) // Carl
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
Oh dear... can we get non-strict for one liners with -E then? I admit it isn't an issue for me at the moment, as I do my one liners in perl5 currently Maybe I need to think functionally, so variable declaration isn't an issue at all -y On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Carl Mäsak cma...@gmail.com wrote: Moritz (), Tux (): I could continue with other Perl 5 deficiencies (no strict by default, Using strict *STILL* is not enabled by default for perl6 one-liners either: $ perl6 -e'my Int $this = 1; $thıs++; say $this;' 1 $ perl6 -Mstrict -e'my Int $this = 1; $thıs++; say $this;' ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e Variable '$thıs' is not declared. Did you mean '$this'? at -e:1 -- my Int $this = 1; ⏏$thıs++; say $this; That, IMHO, is a huge deficiency! lack of easy threading, too many globals, obscure regex syntax), but the individual problems aren't the point. My main point is that large parts of Perl 5 are still stuck in the past, with no good way forward. Good news! I just pushed a change (with backing from other core developers) that makes -e strict by default! commit 5fb81fffa90f90515e663a21987cff484e8260b8 Author: Carl Masak cma...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 28 17:45:25 2015 +0200 strict is now on by default, even for -e This should make (most of) p6u happy. Enjoy! :) // Carl
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 4:45 AM, Marc Chantreux kha...@phear.org wrote: complete different usage but it would be nice to have a flag for use strict both in perl5 and 6 /me nominates -W as a bigger -w .. oh wait, -W already exists as a depreciated-in-my-view perl5 flag. In that case, I also like -E as run a one-liner, as if it was loaded from a file which would disable laxness in one-liners, for those who are so inclined. This discussion got me looking at http://design.perl6.org/S19.html which may need an update, it says perl6 has no -M but Rakudo supports it; which is correct? Minor note, S19 links to S16-io which no longer exists. That link is in the notes about there being no -0 switch due to a lack of specs in S16. -y
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 10:35:27AM -0400, yary wrote: On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 4:45 AM, Marc Chantreux kha...@phear.org wrote: complete different usage but it would be nice to have a flag for use strict both in perl5 and 6 /me nominates -W as a bigger -w .. oh wait, -W already exists as a depreciated-in-my-view perl5 flag. In that case, I also like -E as run a one-liner, as if it was loaded from a file which would disable laxness in one-liners, for those who are so inclined. This is actually what I've been thinking during this discussion. I'm not really seeing a pressing need for strict in one-liners, but phiosophically, I can understand why one might want to have strict on in all cases. So, if we think this is something that actually needs solving, this mechanism seems reasonable to me. This discussion got me looking at http://design.perl6.org/S19.html which may need an update, it says perl6 has no -M but Rakudo supports it; which is correct? The 5to6.pod document in the doc directory says it does exist. I lean towards feeling the docs should be more correct/reliable than the design documents, as that's where people outside the p6 creation bubble will be looking for info (not that, at the moment, they necessarily *are* more correct/reliable - work in progress and all...). All that said, there doesn't, at a quck glance, seem to be any equivalent to Perl 5's perlrun document, which would detail the command line flags. Maybe I'll take a shot at something like that in the coming days. dha -- David H. Adler - d...@panix.com - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ Your point being... - Homer Simpson
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 02:00:09PM -0400, Brandon Allbery wrote: It used to be, but that was not according to spec. FROGGS++ implemented the lax mode, which is enabled by default in one-liners. Perhaps TimToady wants to invoke rule #2 on this. Personally, I use an alias that has ‘-M strict’ in it. I was thinking -e vs. -E, like perl5 complete different usage but it would be nice to have a flag for use strict both in perl5 and 6 -- Marc Chantreux (eiro on github and freenode) http://eiro.github.com/ http://eiro.github.com/atom.xml Don't believe everything you read on the Internet -- Abraham Lincoln
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Elizabeth Mattijsen l...@dijkmat.nl wrote: It used to be, but that was not according to spec. FROGGS++ implemented the lax mode, which is enabled by default in one-liners. Perhaps TimToady wants to invoke rule #2 on this. Personally, I use an alias that has ‘-M strict’ in it. I was thinking -e vs. -E, like perl5. -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allber...@gmail.com ballb...@sinenomine.net unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonadhttp://sinenomine.net
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
On 26 Aug 2015, at 12:18, H.Merijn Brand h.m.br...@xs4all.nl wrote: On Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:26:23 +0200, Moritz Lenz mor...@faui2k3.org wrote: I could continue with other Perl 5 deficiencies (no strict by default, Using strict *STILL* is not enabled by default for perl6 one-liners either: It used to be, but that was not according to spec. FROGGS++ implemented the lax mode, which is enabled by default in one-liners. Perhaps TimToady wants to invoke rule #2 on this. Personally, I use an alias that has ‘-M strict’ in it. Liz
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
Hi, On 11.08.2015 14:12, Tom Browder wrote: I have seen several lists of new Perl 6 features (versus Perl 5) but they all seem to be lists that intermix features with varying degrees of value to ordinary Perl 5 users. If one wants to sell long-time Perl 5 users (already using the latest Perl 5, Moose, etc.) on the value of Perl 6, what should be on the important feature list? on a more meta level: Perl 6 has the ability to evolve, and lots of things that Perl 5 most likely will never have. Just as an example: when I started to get involved with Perl around 2003 or '04 or so, people seemed to be aware that subroutine signatures were a good thing to have. They probably were aware of that much longer. And yet it took until perl 5.20 in 2014 to get even the most basic subroutine signatures (and still marked as experimental). Another one is the inability to reliably introspect strings for whether they are text or binary data, which means enormous care must be taken to not accidentally mix the two. Again, known for ages that it's a problem, afaict no practical solution in sight. These are just two examples of things that people take for granted in a modern programming language, yet Perl 5 has real trouble with. I could continue with other Perl 5 deficiencies (no strict by default, lack of easy threading, too many globals, obscure regex syntax), but the individual problems aren't the point. My main point is that large parts of Perl 5 are still stuck in the past, with no good way forward. Cheers, Moritz
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 3:26 AM, Moritz Lenz mor...@faui2k3.org wrote: Hi, On 11.08.2015 14:12, Tom Browder wrote: I have seen several lists of new Perl 6 features (versus Perl 5) but they all seem to be lists that intermix features with varying degrees of value to ordinary Perl 5 users. If one wants to sell long-time Perl 5 users (already using the latest Perl 5, Moose, etc.) on the value of Perl 6, what should be on the important feature list? ... [Moritz tells of many good, new features...] Thanks, Moritz! Cheers, -Tom
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 12:18:46PM +0200, H.Merijn Brand wrote: $ perl6 -e'my Int $this = 1; $thıs++; say $this;' 1 $ perl6 -Mstrict -e'my Int $this = 1; $thıs++; say $this;' ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e Variable '$thıs' is not declared. Did you mean '$this'? at -e:1 -- my Int $this = 1; ⏏$thıs++; say $this; That, IMHO, is a huge deficiency! so usefull in most cases of oneliners! i really hope this deficiency is here to stay :) -- Marc Chantreux (eiro on github and freenode) http://eiro.github.com/ http://eiro.github.com/atom.xml Don't believe everything you read on the Internet -- Abraham Lincoln
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:41:21 -0400, David H. Adler d...@pobox.com wrote: The reason for my request is to help with a better introduction in my modest draft tutorial on converting Perl 5 to Perl 6 code at the Perl Monastery. I am comfortable with the example code I use there (which is not currently intended to showcase new features), but I am getting several comments on why one should even bother with Perl 6? In talking to Perl 5 people about my Perl 5 to Perl 6 docuentation, trying to get some feedback on it from people who aren't already doing Perl 6, I get this question a lot. So, yes, some kind of document saying these are reasons Perl 6 is actually useful would be very helpful. dha *THE* killer feature that will be seen by all beginning perl6 programmers is its awesome error messages. It is a shame that -e runs no-strict, but as I understand it, that is still under discussion. $ perl6 -e'use v6; my Int $this = 1; $thıs++; say $this;' ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e Variable '$thıs' is not declared. Did you mean '$this'? at -e:1 -- use v6; my Int $this = 1; ⏏$thıs++; say $this; -- H.Merijn Brand http://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.21 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and openSUSE http://mirrors.develooper.com/hpux/http://www.test-smoke.org/ http://qa.perl.org http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ pgpvuEy_uwLST.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 2:00 AM, H.Merijn Brand h.m.br...@xs4all.nl wrote: On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:41:21 -0400, David H. Adler d...@pobox.com ... *THE* killer feature that will be seen by all beginning perl6 programmers is its awesome error messages. It is a shame that ... Thanks! -Tom
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 4:02 AM, Kamil Kułaga teodoz...@gmail.com wrote: One thing that was not mentioned already is using Rat instead of standard floating point number. It prevents many silly mistakes especially when counting money. Thanks, Kamil. -Tom
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick uberm...@gmail.com wrote: Built-in facilities for the language to parse, transform and extend ... Thanks, Andrew. -Tom
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
One thing that was not mentioned already is using Rat instead of standard floating point number. It prevents many silly mistakes especially when counting money. On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 2:12 PM, Tom Browder tom.brow...@gmail.com wrote: I have seen several lists of new Perl 6 features (versus Perl 5) but they all seem to be lists that intermix features with varying degrees of value to ordinary Perl 5 users. If one wants to sell long-time Perl 5 users (already using the latest Perl 5, Moose, etc.) on the value of Perl 6, what should be on the important feature list? For me, stronger typing, named subroutine arguments, better classes and namespaces, object methods, and eventually better concurrency and compiled program persistence are among goodies long awaited. Thanks. -Tom The reason for my request is to help with a better introduction in my modest draft tutorial on converting Perl 5 to Perl 6 code at the Perl Monastery. I am comfortable with the example code I use there (which is not currently intended to showcase new features), but I am getting several comments on why one should even bother with Perl 6? -- Pozdrawiam Kamil Kułaga
Re: What are Perl 6's killer advantages over Perl 5?
Hi, On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 07:12:00AM -0500, Tom Browder wrote: I have seen several lists of new Perl 6 features (versus Perl 5) but they all seem to be lists that intermix features with varying degrees of value to ordinary Perl 5 users. If one wants to sell long-time Perl 5 users (already using the latest Perl 5, Moose, etc.) on the value of Perl 6, what should be on the important feature list? For me, stronger typing, named subroutine arguments, better classes and namespaces, object methods, and eventually better concurrency and compiled program persistence are among goodies long awaited. Thanks. -Tom The reason for my request is to help with a better introduction in my modest draft tutorial on converting Perl 5 to Perl 6 code at the Perl Monastery. I am comfortable with the example code I use there (which is not currently intended to showcase new features), but I am getting several comments on why one should even bother with Perl 6? In talking to Perl 5 people about my Perl 5 to Perl 6 docuentation, trying to get some feedback on it from people who aren't already doing Perl 6, I get this question a lot. So, yes, some kind of document saying these are reasons Perl 6 is actually useful would be very helpful. Just make them look at Perl6 source code. E.g. on rosettacode. Someone who doesn't see how wonderful Perl6 is, is a lost soul anyway. :) - Fagzal