Re: JavaScript Drops ZWNJ

2006-01-26 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Mostafa Hajizadeh wrote:

 On Thu, 26 Jan, 2006 17:06 Behdad wrote:

  On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Mostafa Hajizadeh wrote:
 
   Hi,
  
   I use JavaScript to check and change elements in HTML pages.
   It works fine, but it drops ZWNJ. (Mozilla/Firefox)  Does
   it have any solution?
 
  It's a wellknown issue:
 
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=274152
 
  You can use zwnj; instead.

 Thanks, but what about texts that are currently in the page
 elements or in variables?

They don't drop the ZWNJ as far as I know.  Only text in string
literals in JavaScript source code suffers.

behdad
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Re: Farsi in opengl

2006-01-07 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Install gtkglext, it's got an example of how using Pango to
render internationalized text in OpenGL.  Simply pass your
Persian text and it will take care of all your rendering.

behdad

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006, Ahmad Mouri Sardarabadi wrote:

 Salam,

 Man darhale neveshtam yeseri barname baraye estefadeye shakhsiyam ke az
 opengl estefade mikonan.
 man tavasote freetype(2) toonestam ke bitmap fonto baraye render dar opengl
 bedast biyaram ama baraye inkar ehtiyaj be estfade az shomareye daghighe
 harh arf az Arabic Presentation Forms B unicode hastam.
 soalam ine ke chetor mitoonam az tarighe digeyi mamande pango ya har systeme
 digeyi betore mostaghim az utf-8 shomareye monasebe fonto dar  Arabic
 Presentation Forms B bedast biyaram betori ke betonam mohtaviyate yek text
 ro az utf-8 dar opengl render konam.

 maslan agar tabeye man
 render_gl(char *font,const unichar *text);

 man az g_utf8_get_char_validated baraye taghire fomat az utf-8 be unicode
 estefade mikonam.
 chegoone agar maslan texte man ba harfe che 0x0686 shoroomishe cheye aval
 0xFB7C ro peyda konam?

 omidvaram ke tozihatam baraye fahme moshkel kafi boode bahse.

 Ammsa

 PS. man dar zamine virayeshe text darin had kamelan bitajrobe hastam
 khaheshmandam ke dar soorate momken tozihat hamrah ba mesal bashand.


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Re: viewing farsi font in console

2005-12-11 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Behnam Esfahbod wrote:

 Mohsen Pahlevanzadeh wrote:
  Dear all,
  I need to my user see farsi fonts in console without running X.
  does  ncursess library has capability of this function?

 No.

The new Debian installer fancies a bidi capable NEWT+slang stack.
No ncurses I'm afraid.


  If it hasn't that,Please guide me that i can do it.

 You should use BiCon (Bidirectional Console) from Arabeyes project that
 uses FriBidi and some of Behdad's Farsi Console.

Yeah, that's probably the easiest way.  You may only need the
font though.


 1-http://www.arabeyes.org/project.php?proj=BiCon
 2-http://www.arabeyes.org/
 3-http://www.fribidi.org/

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Re: viewing farsi font in console

2005-12-11 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Medi Montaseri wrote:

 I remeber being able to do this on Unix/Linux long time
 ago...as far back as 1990sback then on SCO, ATT
 SVR4 x86 (386 PCs) and then Linux...

 See manpages on
 setfont(8)
 unicode_start(1)
 unicode_stop(1)
 loadunimap(8)

Yeah, that's basically it.  And my BiCon package already has nice
Persian fonts and a keyboard map for Linux console.

 And google for hebrew console...that community was
 on top of this issue and I was using their tools and findings
 to solve this problem

Well, that community uses some of my tools these days :).

 my final conclusion was Grahpical Interfaces will win at the
 end...

Yeah, that was my conclusion too.

 And finally Operating Systems are pretty much alike.
 If you can do something in Dos, Windows, you can do
 it in Linux as wellsome would let a userspace app
 take over the kernel and do what ever you want (like DOS) and some only
 demand that you write a device dirver to take over the kernel...

Of course.  An small point, DOS doesn't have a kernel really :).
It may be called a boot-loader to be precise :D.

behdad


 Cheers
 Medi
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Re: Bad Farsi Fonts or something

2005-12-04 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Medi Montaseri wrote:

 Also, I didn't know what to do with the fonts.conf file you pointed out,
 should I
 download and put in it my $HOME/.fonts.conf

Yes, exactly.


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Re: MySQL 4.0, FULL-TEXT Indexing and Search Arabic Data, Unicode

2005-12-04 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, AmirBehzad Eslami wrote:

 Dear Behdad,

   On 25 Nov 2005, you wrote:

  Another options is to get yourself a real search engine, like
  Apache Lucene. I've written my experience using that here:
   
  http://mces.blogspot.com/2005/04/on-lucene-and-its-decency.html

 You always offer the most brilliant solutions!!
 Unfortunately, I have no experience with this mehotd. But I'm still eager.
 I read your weblog and met Apache Lucene homepage.

   I'm impressed. Would you tell us how you have integrated this
 Java-driven package with PHP at http://rira.ir/ ?!!  It works
 really fast.

That's the tricky part, or where the runtime-hell comes in.  What
I did was to write a small java program based on the samples in
Lucene to connect to my database and feed the data into Lucene.
At search time, I have another little Java program that takes the
query string from command line and prints out search results to
standard output.  My PHP script then just fires up a shell script
that in turn runs the Java program, piping the output into PHP...

I don't have access to the Java codes at this time, but the PHP
code involved is available here:

  
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/rira/rira/php/page/search.php?rev=1.1.1.1view=log


If you are developing in .NET, there is a functional port of
Lucene to .NET too.  There is even a port of an older version of
it to Python.

BTW, you need to make sure you compile it with Unicode turned on.
I don't quite remember the details, but there was some.  I also
have a Persian class written for it, but it didn't do much
anyway.  In a few weeks I will get access to rira.ir server and
hopefully move the site to the above sf.net project, so you can
see what's inside.

 Thank in advance,
   Behzad

Cheers,

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Re: Bad Farsi Fonts or something

2005-12-02 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Medi Montaseri wrote:

 Hi
 I am having some problems with my Farsi fonts on my browser and in gedit
 on a Linux box (Fedor Core 4, Gnome )

 My problem is

 Letter Ye is always rendered as though it was an independent or
 detatched letter. For example, in the word MILI (as in mili-second) all
 the
 Ye letters are rendered as it would with MEHDI where ye is not
 connected to de.

Basically, you don't have good fonts, and that's the default on
FC4 unfortunately :(.  You need to install the FarsiWeb fonts
package (available from http://farsiweb.info/) to start with.
There is a fontconfig configuration file like this one:

  http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/fonts-persian.conf

This will be included in fontconfig-2.4 release coming soon.


 Some help is appreciated.
 Thanks
 Medi

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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

2005-10-18 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

To answer the parts that other people didn't answer:

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Max Froumentin wrote:

 Thanks for the responses. Let me comment on each here:

  It is a normal form of an equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a
  Persian speaking country, mathematical notations are expressed the
  same way as in English.

 Even in primary school? When kids learn to write 1+2+3 do they start
 straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of
 right to left text?

Yes, that's what I remember.

 Another example is the division sign. Sometimes you see:
 ½, or 1/2, or 1:2, or 1÷2, or 1
   -
   2

The last two are used in elementary school, but then in higher
levels they fall back to 1/2 and 1
 -
 2

 I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice
 relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I
 wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine
 and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local
 variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg')

I've only seen a Persian operator for 'lim', and again, that's
only used in highschool textbooks, not academia.

 So the stretched 'limit' wouldn't always be stretched?

I think a common practice is to use a fixedsize 'lim' which
happens to be wider than the usual way the word is written.  The
word for 'lim' in Persian consists of only two letters, and that
may not be wideenough to make it clear what's going on, so they
typically use a stretched version.

 Max.

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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

2005-10-17 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Arash Bijanzadeh wrote:

 I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal form of
 an equation in Persian

True.  Although the Persian notation for limit is not that
common, many simply use the Latin lim notation.

As for digits, we use Persian digits (U+06F0..U+06F9) in
mathematics all the time.

behdad


 On 10/17/05, Max Froumentin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  [OK, here we go again. No attachment this time]
 
  After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to
  join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I
  wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-wide
  mathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing in
  the language. Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our
  minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going
  to investigate Hebrew and others.
 
  We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ from
  Arabic. It's at http://people.w3.org/maxf/tmp/limf.png. I don't know
  any of either Arabic or Persian, but I'm told the equation differs
  from arabic in that the numbers are different. The limit operator is
  also special in that it appears to be stretchable.
 
  The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notation
  have any such particularities that would make its layout different
  from other languages, in particular right-to-left ones, and that would
  then require special constructs in the MathML language?
 
  Thanks for any insight,
 
  Max.
 
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Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

2005-10-16 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hi all,

Max Froumentin from the W3 consortium is seeking feedback on
Mathematics in Persian.  His message to the list was bounced for
some reason, so I'm forwarding his message.  Please keep him CCed
when replying.

Thanks,
behdad

=
From: Max Froumentin [EMAIL PROTECTED]

After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to
join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I
wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-wide
mathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing in
the language.  Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our
minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going
to investigate Hebrew and others.

We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ from
Arabic.  See attached image. I don't know any of either Arabic or
Persian, but I'm told the equation differs from arabic in that the
numbers are different. The limit operator is also special in that it appears
to be stretchable.

The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notation
have any such particularities that would make its layout different
from other right-to-left languages, like Arabic, and that would then
require special constructs in the MathML language?

Thanks for any insight,

Max.
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Re: another request for feedback

2005-08-12 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Thanks Connie, I had a joyful afternoon (re)reading the story
with a couple of friends.  I've put a link to it on my homepage.

behdad


On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Connie Bobroff wrote:

 Hi Everyone,

 I always ask for your help in various projects...

 This time it's one of your favorites, a Majid story by Houshang Moradi 
 Kermani.


 I need to know if you see any mistakes in Persian spelling or content in
 general and if there are any technical bugs.  I believe this will only be
 viewable on WinXP + IE6 or Firefox, Win2000 SP2 + IE6, OS X + Firefox and
 certain flavors of Linux.  Others will probably have missing characters or
 problems with diacriticals.

 Please find lots of mistakes before the innocent language learners visit the
 site.  They don't know how the Persian is supposed to look or anything about
 Persian computing.

 Most will probably enter the site here:
 http://persianintexas.org/menu03.html

 and the index page is here:
 http://persianintexas.org/nazem/

 I have built this website from tips and insights from our previous 
 discussions.
 Several of you, especially including but not limited to those with the beh
 component in your name were involved in the production and without whom I 
 would
 be completely lost.  Also, the biggest thrill for me was that Mr. Moradi 
 Kermani
 is just an email away in Tehran and helped a lot.  What a wonderful man!  He 
 is
 right now just writing a few words of encouragement for the language-learners
 which I'll put in the FAQ and then besides a couple small jobs, I'm done and
 you can be sure I'm exhausted!

 Thank you in advance for any and all feedback.

 -Connie




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Re: farsi language auto-detection in web pages

2005-08-10 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

 Hi,
 Thanks for reply,
 What I exatly need is CP1256 detection, and after that detecting
 whether the language is persian or not.

As you can guess, all non-Unicode character sets share the same
8-bit space, so they overlap all the time.  Your only bet at
charset detection is to look at the areas that are left unencoded
in each character set and cross-out charsets as use those
forbidden areas.  As for language detection, that can be used in
charset detection too, you can look for the string SPACE REH
ALEPH SPACE as a good indicator of Persian.


 Regards,

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Re: farsi language auto-detection in web pages

2005-08-09 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

 Hi,

 How can I auto-detect language of a webpage without knowing it's
 charset? (suppose language and charset is not defined in header)
 Is there a simple (not time-consuming) method to detect a page charset?

If it's UTF-8 or UTF-16, kinda easy, not really otherwise.


 Regards,

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Re: Two new fonts from SIL

2005-08-02 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Behnam Rassi wrote:

 Hi,

 SIL International has recently released two new fonts, Scheherazade
 and Lateef, both in two versions of AAT (for Macintosh) and OT (for
 the rest). They are quite good. Check them out at:
 http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?
 site_id=nrsiitem_id=ArabicFonts

Interesting.  Thanks for the link.  The fonts don't look good on
my laptop though, Arabic looking still.


 Cheers,
 Behnam

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Re: URLs to memorize

2005-07-28 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Connie Bobroff wrote:

 In case you need ideas for future enhancements, please consider putting
 an apostrophe checker which will search out unescaped apostrophes in the 
 content
 and add the extra slash before them however leave the apostrophes that are 
 part
 of the js code alone. This apostrophe problem is already a
 big enough headache in javascript but in Persian where we transliterate hamze
 with apostrophe it is that much worse.  Note, I am shamelessly suggesting the
 enhancement without even first having tried out your new editor :)

Not quite what you asked for, but I added a fewture to convert
HTML special characters (') to entity form and back, so you
can escape a bare Persian text and insert it into HTML or
JavaScript.

 -Connie

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Re: jalali

2005-07-16 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

It's completely free.  You can get it in source code or binary
from this page:

  http://www.farsiweb.info/wiki/Main/Products

behdad

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Sajjad Ebrahimi wrote:

 salam
 http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/persiancomputing/2004-May/001214.html
 fekonam inja beshe ye file baraye pocket pc peyda karad?
 foroshiye ya majani ?
 cheshekli mitonam yedone tahiye konam?
 khahesh mikonam javab bedin
 mer30


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Re: cp 1256 to utf8

2005-06-30 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

iconv -f CP1256 -t UTF8 inputfile  outputfile

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, khazaee wrote:

 hello all.
 I want to change the character set of a text file from CP1256 to UTF8,
 which one is better? :
 1) use of high level library like icu or iconv from glibc.
 2) low level transformation and use of wchar_t data type,(byte by byte)
 i mean does icu library or iconv functions do that perfectly?
 Or
 do you have any ideas?
 regards!
 H.khazaee

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Re: New versions of Persian stemmer syntax parser

2005-06-09 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005, Jon D. wrote:

 For anyone who's interested, new versions of a Persian
 stemmer, two-level morphology engine, link-grammar
 syntax parser, and character encoding conversion
 scripts are available for download.  All of it is
 under the Free license GPL v.2

 Web demonstrations for the Persian stemmer and the
 syntax parser are available also:

 http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/stemmer.html
 http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/persianlg.html

Hi Jon,

Can you please educate us on how these are supposed to work?  I
can't get anything out of them.  I choose UTF-8, and type a verb
in the stemmer, I get back the verb verbatim.

Thanks,


--behdad
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Re: ALL COMPUTER BOOKS IN THE WORLD

2005-05-30 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Please do not send stuff like this to this list again.

behdad

On Mon, 30 May 2005, Ali Sadeghi wrote:

 Hi all,
 http://ebuki.apvs.ru/downloads/

 all you need is a russian proxy to download through.
 For example use the ones in:
 http://www.web-hack.ru/proxy/

 Ali


 Regards,
 Ali Sadeghi Ardestani
 Eghtesad Novin Bank - Tehran/Iran
 IT Dept.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Tel: 0098 21 878 8960
 Fax: 0098 21 888 0166

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Re: leap year issue with jalali

2005-03-27 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 No, I don't. But the best is trying to get someone fix the bug from the
 C source and recompile. There are many Windows users out there.

 roozbeh

I'll go a remove.  If anybody cares, somebody would send along.
Ehsan?

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Re: leap year issue with jalali

2005-03-25 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

What do you mean I also checked?  I think you just checked
the jalali.exe.  This is an old bug that have been fixed in C
source, PHP source, PalmOS, etc, but I don't know why Roozbeh
likes to keep he buggy executable around.

Roozbeh, do you mind if I remove it?

behdad


On Sat, 26 Mar 2005, Ali Sadeghi wrote:

 Hi people!
 Please check jalali algorithm with 2005/03/20 and you
 will get 1383/13/01 ? I also checked it with the
 jalali.exe.  The same problem!

 BEWARE!


 Regards,
 Ali Sadeghi Ardestani
 Eghtesad Novin Bank - Tehran/Iran
 IT Dept.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Tel: 0098 21 878 8960
 Fax: 0098 21 888 0166



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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 6 (fwd)

2005-02-25 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:

 I'm not sure how the date data type can be representation agnostic.
 What ever the OS provides (via a system call) is in reference to a
 starting point in some calendar.  On UNIX systems, this is
 traditionally the number of seconds since January 1, 1970, i.e.
 Gregorian.  GetSystemTime on Win32 returns a structure, which
 represents the Gregorian date.

The UNIX epoch can easily defined as the number of seconds since
11 Dey 1348.  The important data is a date in the sense of a
point in the axis of time.  How you write it out, depends on one
speific representation though.

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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 6 (fwd)

2005-02-24 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

 Now something else ,
 For AddDate and DateDiff functions, I need an algorithm which
 calculates the number of leap years between two given Date. Is there
 any such algorithm or at least a documentation for the above
 algorithms (jalali.c) so that i can find it in the code myself? (Or
 AddDate, DateDiff functions ready in ideal case)

 Regards,
 Mohsen A. Momeni

Well, that's why I'm saying your implementation is not what MySQL
people expect.  The date data type is representation-agnostic
itself, and AddDate, DateDiff, etc work with the date data type
(at least in MySQL).  What you need is functions to covert from
internal date representation to Iranian calendar string, and vice
versa.  You don't need (and should not) implement all date
functions again.


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Re: The New Alef

2005-02-24 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 There has been a new Alef around for quite a while. For those who don't
 live in Iran or haven't seen it yet for any reasons, a photo is
 available at:

   http://bamdad.org/~roozbeh/alef.jpg

Smart!  That can be useful in hex numbers written in Arabic
script too.  Indeed they want it to look like one letter, and
don't want the Alef to be read as 1.

 It's used on car plates, but the exact usage is disputed among a few
 friends of mine.

What do you mean exactly?

 roozbeh

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Re: Jalali Calendar in MySQL (was Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5)

2005-02-20 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:

 And if you are using the mysql frontend (i.e. Command line?)
 http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/date-and-time-functions.html has the
 full set of functions for handling  date.

Most of the functions there are calendar agnostic, like DATE_ADD,
et al.

BTW, if you really need Iranian calendar in there, I suggest
writing it as an stored procedure.  Then you don't need
administrator priviledges to install the procedure, any user can
do that.

 cheers,
 Masoud

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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 6

2005-02-19 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

  No.  Wrong.

 So you say we should still fight about our calender name?

I mean yes, if we have not come up with a name yet, we can
continue discussion, of course you are free to call it fight or
whatever.

  No.  They simply are not interested in your functions.

 They were interested, as their first email showed that. They accept it
 but i got no answer after that.

Then your implemention has been poor.

  Again no.  Calendars does not belong to databases.

 I didn't say they belong to databases but having calender functions in
 mysql will make these calcultions much faster in programs instead of
 doing them in php.

No.  A C module for PHP is as fast, if not faster, than doing
them in MySQL, which is apparently the wrongest place you can
implement them.  What about in the kernel then?  Faster?


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Re: Jalali Calendar in MySQL (was Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5)

2005-02-18 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:

 I think it kinda does. After all, if they have some sql
 functions to deal with the dates stored on the tables and
 databases, if some guy (read government office or whatever)
 wants to store persian dates in the db, they have to have two
 conversion functions from Jalali to Gregorian(sp?) and reverse.

Then you have these conversion functions in your programming
language and convert as part or preparing your SQL query.

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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5

2005-02-16 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hi,

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

 Hello,

 About jalali or Iranian calender, i think fighting about what the name
 should be is of no use and will make a lot of problems for us. I know
 everything about them. that Jalali calender is based on calculation
 and iranian calender has a astoronomical basis. But all these
 arguments will lead to our failiur for having a standard calender in
 iran.

No.  Wrong.

 I have added Jalali (Persian , Iranian , ) calender to MySQL as a
 set of functions having J at the beginnig of each of them. But I think
 developers of mysql has read all these arguments in mailing lists and
 may decided to forget about the patch as I have got no aswer till now.

No.  They simply are not interested in your functions.

 I think we have one target and that is having jalali (or ...) calender
 in our databases NO MATTER WHAT THE NAME IS.

Again no.  Calendars does not belong to databases.

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RE: A new Persian Unicode keyboard

2005-02-12 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Well, [softening my throat] like Ehsan already mentioned, then
only trick is to use RTL paragraphs, and not only right-align the
paragraph.  That solves most of the problem.  For the remaining
few cases, these things called LRM and RLM should be used.

behdad


On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

 The problem, as some of you might have guessed, is the direction switching.
 Given an application like MS Word, my keyboard correctly sends the
 characters, and Word gives them the right form. But sometimes some
 characters (mainly the shared chars), and often the blinking caret appear
 on the wrong side of the line.

 What can be done to make the shared characters (Like !) to appear on the
 correct side? The caret problem can be fixed with Word's RTL command. But
 mixing English and Persian letters in the same line often leads to
 unpredictable outcomes.
 The rule of the thumb is, use RTL paragraphs when writing Persian text
 (which might contain English text within it) and use LTR when writing
 English text (which might contain Persian text within it.)

 Is there an algorithm governing these situations that I can use to modify
 the output to remedy this?
 There is an algorithm called Unicode BiDirectional Algorithm, the details of
 which is avaibale on Unicode.org.  As you might have guessed, Word doesn't
 provide a correct implementation of this algorithm (nor do any other text
 editors that I know of to this date.)  There's a library being developed
 called FriBidi, of which Behdad is the project maintainer, IIRC, which might
 help you, but not with Word probably.  I guess Behdad would be able to make
 profound comments on this.
 -
 Ehsan Akhgari
 www.farda-tech.com http://www.farda-tech.com/
 List Owner:  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 MSVC@BeginThread.com
 [Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ]


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RE: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 4

2005-02-12 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Saied Nesbat wrote:

 This sounds like overkill, a roundabout way of doing that has
 to be done a lot simpler. Am I missing something? Since the
 Unicode characters have the information, should Word not at
 least act as a simple box?

Implementing the whole Unicode in Microsoft way means a lot of
code which results in a lot of binaries, so they simply can't
install them all 'just in case'.  You need to explicitly ask it
to install Arabic script support...

 Best regards,

 Saied

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RE: A new Persian Unicode keyboard

2005-02-11 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Saied Nesbat wrote:

 Thanks Behdad!

You're welcome.

 I have gone through your slide presentation online and I am trying to sort
 out things now!

Good.

 So you mean each para should be wrapped in RTL PDF pair? I have experimented
 with outputting RTL, but in some apps (mainly Word) it does not seem to have
 any effect. Is there a setting in word that can remedy this?

No, paragraphs should not be wrapped in anything.  Some systems
automatically detect paragraph direction based on its content
(basically the first alphabetic letter), but apparently Microsoft
systems don't.  So you've got to push a button in Word for that.
I'm sure you can find answers to all your problems here:

http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/persianwp.htm

 Do you know of any tool that correctly implements the protocol, so that I
 can use it for testing?

The gedit text editor from the GNOME project is a good example.
Basically anything using latest GNOME libraries implements this.

 Best regards,

 Saied

 P.s., My friend Farhad Msoudi who just visited Toronto tells me that the a
 huge portion of the CS dept of Toronto university is Iranian.
 Congratulations guys!

Thanks.

behdad




 -Original Message-
 From: Behdad Esfahbod [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:43 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: Persian Computing List
 Subject: RE: A new Persian Unicode keyboard


 Well, [softening my throat] like Ehsan already mentioned, then
 only trick is to use RTL paragraphs, and not only right-align the
 paragraph.  That solves most of the problem.  For the remaining
 few cases, these things called LRM and RLM should be used.

 behdad


 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

  The problem, as some of you might have guessed, is the direction
 switching.
  Given an application like MS Word, my keyboard correctly sends the
  characters, and Word gives them the right form. But sometimes some
  characters (mainly the shared chars), and often the blinking caret
 appear
  on the wrong side of the line.
 
  What can be done to make the shared characters (Like !) to appear on the
  correct side? The caret problem can be fixed with Word's RTL command. But
  mixing English and Persian letters in the same line often leads to
  unpredictable outcomes.
  The rule of the thumb is, use RTL paragraphs when writing Persian text
  (which might contain English text within it) and use LTR when writing
  English text (which might contain Persian text within it.)
 
  Is there an algorithm governing these situations that I can use to modify
  the output to remedy this?
  There is an algorithm called Unicode BiDirectional Algorithm, the details
 of
  which is avaibale on Unicode.org.  As you might have guessed, Word doesn't
  provide a correct implementation of this algorithm (nor do any other text
  editors that I know of to this date.)  There's a library being developed
  called FriBidi, of which Behdad is the project maintainer, IIRC, which
 might
  help you, but not with Word probably.  I guess Behdad would be able to
 make
  profound comments on this.
  -
  Ehsan Akhgari
  www.farda-tech.com http://www.farda-tech.com/
  List Owner:  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  MSVC@BeginThread.com
  [Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ]
 

 --behdad
 http://behdad.org/




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Re: It seems that kompare have problems in FC3 with UTF-8!

2005-01-19 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Hedayat Vatakhah wrote:

Yes, you are right. But, just to be a little more exactly, this
 program also let me to merge preferred differences,
 and the reality is that the main problem is here, because it (in FC3)
 can't save the result in proper UTF-8 encoding
 and the result is not usable. I haven't any problem with it in FC1.
It's a little strange for me that command line programs have not any
 problems with UTF8 while some of GUI programs
 have that. For another example, the replace in files in Quanta+ (in the
 menu it is find in files) have problems for replacing
 Persian characters while sed works well!


This is becuase command line tools are mostly from GNU coreutils
package, which is heavily tested, but GUI tools are... you know.


 Thanks again

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Re: It seems that kompare have problems in FC3 with UTF-8!

2005-01-18 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Tue, 2005-01-18 at 09:03, Hedayat Vatakhah wrote:
  ITNO GOD
  Hi everybody,
  Kompare is a useful program for me.

 May I ask what is Kompare exactly?

No, because you have not SedTFE.  And you even don't need that.
Kompare is the KDE name for Compare, which probably is a GUI
application for showing the diff(1) between two files.


 roozbeh

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RE: openoffice zwnj

2005-01-04 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

 Great to know it's been fixed.  Do you exactly know the fix is included
 since which version of the KDE?  I've noticed that this bug seriously
 affects the usability of KDE for Persian computing.

Don't know numbers, but it was early 2004.  After the thread
about me and XFree86 hit the search engines ;).

 Thanks,
 -
 Ehsan Akhgari

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RE: farsiweb.info

2004-11-01 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

 I'm not sure.  What I can say for sure is the image won't render correctly
 in IE.  Hmm, BTW, at a second look, IE fails to render the layout correctly
 as well!  Of course that's not as bad as how the background image looks.
 List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Humm, would you check http://farsitex.org/?  I think it worked in
IE when I designed it.

Thanks a lot for the feedback.  Behnam, would you please make
sure the design works in IE and Mozilla at least.


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RE: farsiweb.info

2004-11-01 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Connie Bobroff wrote:

 In any case, many people in Iran turn off images anyhow for faster
 viewing so you may like to design the site so that it works both with and
 without images.

You sure?  It was true a few years back, but I don't think
it's still the case.  People download MP3 and watch Flash
animation these days.

 By the way, I also may be lacking perfect sight but I didn't see a link to:

A link to PersianComputing on farsitex.org?  Or farsiweb.info you
mean?  Note that the content on farsiweb.info is just a
reshuffling of the old stuff.  With the new system, we will start
updating the content soon.

 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing

 -Connie

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RE: farsiweb.info

2004-10-31 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Ah, that's a good sign, that none of us at FarsiWeb uses IE
anymore!  BTW, IIRC, 8bit transparent PNG works in IE too.

b


On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

  Hi friends,
 
  The FarsiWeb Project's website http://farsiweb.info/ is now
  up-to-date with a new Wiki system.

 Congrats on the new site!

 I took a quick look, and I have a comment regarding the design.  It seems to
 me that you're using a transparent PNG file as the background for the pages.
 IE doesn't support this feature of PNG files correctly, so the pages render
 half unreadable on IE.  I suggest changing this, and the easiest way would
 be not to use a transparent PNG (no need for that, anyway - just let the
 background be white.)  Fortunately real browsers (Firefox, and Mozilla) do
 render it pretty fine!

 Other than that, the layout seems very nice.  Thanks for your efforts.

 -
 Ehsan Akhgari

 Farda Technology (http://www.farda-tech.com/)

 List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 [ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
 [ WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ]



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Re: Publishing Persian Poems on the Web!

2004-10-23 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hi Sina,

I've got some experience doing that, but I'm not yet convinced
that people should start designing schemas from scratch.  I
believe one should start from Docbook or something like that.

You should consider contacting Omid Milani [EMAIL PROTECTED] or
[EMAIL PROTECTED].  He's THE guy for your work.  He an expert in
XML technology, and has designed Persian schemas for such things
like plays, articles, poetry, etc.

BTW, one experience I've got from working on http://rira.ir/ is
that there's no such thing as a beyt.  I mean, a poem is a
sequence of verses, just that.  There should be no element called
beyt in your schema.  I know it's a bit controversial, I don't
insist on it, feel free.

behdad


On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Sina Heshmati wrote:

 Hi,

 I'm currently involved in designing a new standard to markup
 Persian poems. XML Schema is used to define the markup
 vocabulary. The XML instance of the schema is written in
 Persian, including element and attribute names, etc.

 I've also hacked two style sheet layers (XSLT and CSS) as well.
 However the presentation model is beyond the scope of this post
 and demands a completely separate discussion as well as
 different contributors.

 I ask anyone, who's familiar with the structure of Persian
 poems, and (meta)data associated with them, to participate in
 our new and open standard on the Web. I found this mailing list
 a reliable and convenient place for our further discussions to
 take place.

 Best Regards,
 Sina

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Re: Unicode - ligatures

2004-09-18 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hello,

In short:  You are supposed to ignore both Arabic Presentation
Forms blocks.  They are not part of the Arabic model of Unicode
(except for Rls character of course).

Longer answer:  Many (lazy) implementations, use the Presentation
Forms - B block as a glyph encoding to shape Arabic in the
Unicode namespace and pass the shaped string to the rendering
engine, which by definition, is the place that character to glyph
mapping should have been done.  Fortunately with OpenType fonts,
you don't need to worry about shaping at all.  They define their
supported glyphs and shapes all in the font itself.

About the joining algorithm, no, Unicode joining algorithm does
not support Presentation Forms all!

behdad


On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Peyman wrote:

 Hi,

 I hope somebody in the forum answer my question ASAP:

  What is the use of Arabic Presentation Forms - A in Unicode
 (Range FB50-FDFF).

  I understand we may use some symbols like /Rial/ by a single
 code (FDFC) but what I don't understand is the ligatures. Do we
 need them all If we want to design a Persian editor? Or some of
 them?

  Basically, what is behind the joining algorithm? For example,
 we have the code 067E for /p/. Do we need to implement FB56,
 FB57, FB58, FB59 for initial, middle, final, and isolated forms
 of /p/ in the involved algorithm?

 Peyman

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Re: Persian numbers in Glibc

2004-09-12 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Actually Qt already does that.  Otherwise all Hamed said is
right and precise.


On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

 Hello everyone,

 Does Glibc support persian numbers? i mean does it interpret persian
 numbers as real numbers?
 As i tested ,it's not so , i mean there is no support for persian
 numbers in glibc.am i right?

 Is there any application in linux supporting persian numbers?Should
 this support be added to any application that is supposed to support
 persian language?

 regards,
 Mohsen

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Re: Iranian clipart

2004-09-04 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 11:44, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
* Islamic Republic of Iran official emblem, based on the same
  specification, with a very slight modification to match the
  emblem in common usage:

 Questions: What exactly is that slight modification? How is this
 different from the emblem which was already provided on the FarsiWeb
 website?

the sword tail on the very bottom center of the emblem is
typically drawn as a simple triangle, but FarsiWeb's is not like
that.  Means, old FarsiWeb's is like this:


----
   /  |  |  \
   \/

while mine is:

---  ---
   /   \/   \

Right?

 roozbeh

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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 15, Issue 10

2004-09-03 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Please write in English when posting to this list.  If you like
to answer in any language other than English, exclude the list
address please.

behdad

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Mohsen Saboorian wrote:

  salam 
 Salam,

  man saeid hastam,
  mikhastam beporsam agar dar zabane java bekham ye araye az reshteh ra be
  zabane farsi print konam  chekar bayad bokonam.,,..
 bastegi dare bekhahi tooye console print koni ya tooye ye frame (masalan
 JFrame). tooye console be in asoonia nemitooni chon bayad consolet farsi
 support kone (pas rooye Syste,.out.println() hesab nakon).

 Mitooni be asooni ye String ro az character haye Farsi (masalan ba encodinge
 cp1256 = Windows-Arabic) por koni va ba estefade az Swing ya AWT namayeshesh
 bedi.
 Rahe dige ine ke Stringeto az character haye Unicode por koni. in karo too
 java mishe ba \u anjam dad va bayad jaye X ye adade mabnaye 16 gharar
 bedi.



  merc az komake shoma
 ya Ali.

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Re: Vi/Emacs editor with RTL support

2004-09-01 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Not anything really useful.  Vim has a rightleft mode (:set
rightleft), which is useful for ONLY RIGHT-TO-LEFT text.

Emacs, it's worse:  there's an emacs-unicode branch, an
emacs-bidi branch, and the emacs-head branch.  They are trying to
merge the three of them for a few years now!

behdad

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

 Hi all,

 Sorry if this question is too basic.  Is anyone aware of a version of the vi
 editor (preferrably) or Emacs which have support for right-to-left
 languages, including Persian?  If they already support this, should I do
 anything special to turn RTL support on in those applications?

 Thanks in advance,
 -
 Ehsan Akhgari

 Learn Linux in Persian: http://www.persian-linux.org/

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RE: Vi/Emacs editor with RTL support

2004-09-01 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

 Thanks for your reply, Behdad.

 So, is there any editor you would recommend that has good support for
 bidirectional (Persian and English) text, and preferrably supporting HTML
 (but an editor without HTML support will also be just fine)?  The latest one
 I'm working with is Bluefish, but it has some minor problems, and I'm
 looking to see if there's something better available.


The only editor I use these days is gedit.  It has some syntax
highlighting features.

 TIA,
 -
 Ehsan Akhgari

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Re: utf-8 based Persian collation function

2004-08-23 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

You are quite right.

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, hamzeh khazaee wrote:

 Hi All.
 Dose anybody know that MySQL use of glibc for collation functions or implement  it 
 in itself? (utf-8 based collation function for persian support)
 it seems that MySQL does not use  of glibc collation function (strcoll()) but i'm 
 not sure.
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Re: Behaviour of U+002F in IE and Mozilla

2004-08-18 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 
  The behavior was changed between Unicode 4.0 and 4.0.1!  With the
  latest Unicode version, using Persian digits, in a Persian
  paragraph, something like 1361/07/05 will render 1361/07/05, not
  05/07/1361, which is a good thing.  (Using Arabic digits instead
  of Persian digits most probably result in the other way).

 Do you know which systems actually implement 4.0.1 bidi algorithm? Does
 installing your latest FriBidi library completely address this issue on
 Linux?

No system actually :-(.  No, installing FriBidi only affects
AbiWord...  Oh wait, Pango, so GNOME, now use 4.0.1 bidi data.

 Hooman Mehr

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Re: Behaviour of U+002F in IE and Mozilla

2004-08-17 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote:

 Hi,

 Since the Arabic thousand separator, U+066B, is not commonly in use,
 most of Persian sites use /, U+002F, instead. The behaviour, when it
 is used between numbers, is different in IE (and MS Office) and Mozilla.
 Which one is the correct one?

The behavior was changed between Unicode 4.0 and 4.0.1!  With the
latest Unicode version, using Persian digits, in a Persian
paragraph, something like 1361/07/05 will render 1361/07/05, not
05/07/1361, which is a good thing.  (Using Arabic digits instead
of Persian digits most probably result in the other way).

 Best
 -ali-

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Re: Persian translation of GNOME

2004-08-04 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

 I'd like to help in translating the GNOME 2.8 po files.  I noticed that
 Roozbeh is the leader of the Persian translation team.  I'd like to know how
 I can contribute.  Should I send patches to Roozbeh himself, or do something
 else?  Also, are there any tools which can help in the translation (instead
 of manually editing the po files)?

 Thanks!

Hello,

There are a couple tools to help translation.  KBabel is the one
from KDE project, and there's a gtranslator for more GNOMEi look.
I remember Roozbeh was preparing a guide for Persian GNOME
translators.  There is also a list for that that Roozbeh will
subscribe you eventually.  The translation process is definitely
not as easy as it is for a left-to-right language.  Also we are a
bit picky about words to use, want to conform to the Persian
Academy translations and other sources...  But help is definitely
welcome.

Roozbeh is a bit busier than before these days.  If you didn't
gety ANY feedback on these, come to in September again and I will
use my privileges :-).

Since you are in Iran now, you may also want to join
gnome-ir-list on http://lists.gnome.org/ and help starting GNOME
enthusiasm in Iran; this great desktop has been left in cold
there...

--behdad
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Re: IPA2 Official Web site...

2004-07-29 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

I'm wondering, ..., didn't you really know that IPA already
stands for International Phonetic Alphabet and is widely in use?

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, D.A.S. Moslehi wrote:

 Hello,

 International Persian Alphabet (IPA2)'s official Web site went online.
 http://www.persiandirect.com/projects/ipa2/

 Persian Linguistics Association (PLA) Home
 http://www.persiandirect.com

 Regards,
 DASM

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Bidirectional Layouts in Gtk+ -- Slides

2004-07-19 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hello,

I'm writing this mail from Ottawa, spending the most wonderful
week of the year here, featuring:

  Desktop Developers' Conference 2004
  http://www.desktopcon.org/2004/schedule.php

  Linux Kernel Developers Summit 2004
  http://www.usenix.org/events/kernel04/

  Ottawa Linux Symposium 2004
  http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2004/schedule_static.html

So, everybody's here, you name it, Alan Cox  Telsa, Owen Taylor,
Havoc Pennington, Keith Packard, ... (Linus Torvalds?  I didn't
see him yet, should be)


Ok, to the point.  I talked today about Bidirectional Layouts in
Gtk+.  You can find slides here:

  http://behdad.org/download/Presentations/bidi-layouts/

I've prepared them for 1024x768 screen, and using Mozilla.
Excuse me in advance if you see garbage on other browsers.
Comments are more than welcome.

Cheers,
--behdad
  behdad.org

PS. My other presentations, papers, etc are always at:

  http://behdad.org/download/Presentations/
  http://behdad.org/download/Publications/
  http://behdad.org/download/Conferences/

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Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Farsi in Max OS X]]

2004-07-07 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

AbiWord still has serious problems with Arabic joining.  It's
supposed to be fixed when FriBidi does Arabic joining finally,
which you know...

b

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 -Forwarded Message-
 From: Michael Everson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Roozbeh Pournader [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Fwd: Farsi in Max OS X]
 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:54:27 +0100

 At 19:18 +0430 2004-07-06, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 Your friend could try AbiWord 2.1.2 for OS X
 http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14743

 It is free and is multi-platform and OpenSource.

 -Forwarded Message-
 From: Kit Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Farsi in Max OS X
 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:48:02 +0430
 
 I am doing some work in Afghanistan and would like to be able to
 generate content in Dari on my Mac laptop running OS 10.3.4  So far it
 appears that I cannot use Office X or Filemaker 5.5 and generate Dari
 due to those applications not supporting unicode fonts.
 
 Does anyone have any advice in this matter? If I upgrade to Filemaker
 7.7 and Office 2004, will those applications recognize unicode and will
 I require additional fonts?
 
 Thank you for any help that can be provided.
 
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Educating Google about Farsi

2004-07-04 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hello listers,

I'm setting up a petition against using Farsi, in favor of
Persian.  It's not a regular petition, but a Google petition.
You should have seen a couple of them before.

Here is the petition page:

http://behdad.org/farsi.html

To support the petition, all you need to do is to add a link to
this page in your pages.  Something like this does the job:

Don't just say a href=http://behdad.org/farsi.html;Farsi/a.

Use your imagination. See http://behdad.org/ for an example.

Thanks in advance,
--behdad
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Re: Persian UTF-8 MySql collation

2004-07-04 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sun, 4 Jul 2004, Peter Cruickshank wrote:

 On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:13:02 -0400
 Behdad Esfahbod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Actually there's a middle solution here, which the price is just
  messing a bit with your database schema.  All you need is to
  store the string returned by strxfrm(str) in your database as a
  binary field, and just sort on that column instead of str.
 
  behdad

 That might work for Ehsan, but it sadly wouldn't save much effort for us
 since PHP doesn't do Persian UTF-8 collation (that I've been able to get
 working anyway), or provide access to strxfrm()

To do Persian collation you need to set locale to Persian.
Wrapping setlocale and strxfrm is a ten minute job (if they're
really not in PHP).  Or do you mean you are using PHP on a system
which does Persian collation but does not provide strxfrm?  Then
you better deal with it...  If you have Glibc, as I said, it's a
ten minute job.

 :-(

 - which is why MySql seemed the least bad option.

By no means it's the least bad option, believe me.  It's the
hardest, without Gilbc at least.

 Peter

[Ehsan, you just replied to me.  Answering on list.]

On Sun, 4 Jul 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

  Actually there's a middle solution here, which the price is
  just messing a bit with your database schema.  All you need
  is to store the string returned by strxfrm(str) in your
  database as a binary field, and just sort on that column
  instead of str.

 Thanks for the suggestion.  I didn't think of this before.

 BTW, is there a free Persian collation implementation available?  I have

Well, you may wish to read a couple documents.  Read Unicode
Collation Algorithm for example.  Just read the intro or
something like that.  The point is that Persian Collation is only
an small table feed to the Unicode Collation Algorithm.  So yes,
there is a free Persian collation implementation, Glibc + fa_IR
locale.

 seen Roozbeh's fa_IR LC_COLLATE file, but I'm wonderring is it implemented
 in straight C as well.  And no, using glibc is not an option here.

What you have seen is the binary encoded table.  The source is in
the fa_IR locale source file.

 Thanks!

 -
 Ehsan Akhgari

Guys, both of you, if you don't have Glib, and your system does
not provide what you need, you:

* Either forget about Persian Collation, or
* Implement your own minimal collation, or
* Consider using something like Glibc or uClibc with Persian
  locale as a library.  Not sure how uClibc deals with Persian
  locale.

--behdad
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Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates

2004-06-26 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 Hi Behdad,

 You are right, that was my mistake. I had some wrong perceptions about
 U+060D that made me believe it would belong there. I am starting to
 feel I need to import all those data files into a database for quick
 reference. I am getting tired of having to find information scattered
 across so many different places (book, charts and various data files) I
 still feel there should be a better way for organizing all the
 information in Unicode.

 - Hooman


There are applications out there that do this.  Under Linux,
gucharmap is such a one, but not really that Unicode-oriented.
Under Windows, the unicode.org releases an application for that
but unfortunately I don't recall the name right now, nor I can
find it on their site.  But I'm sure there is, I downloaded it
last month (and couldn't run!).

--behdad
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Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates

2004-06-25 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 Hi Behdad,

Hello,

 Glad to hear the good news. Is there anything that may impact end
 users? If there is, please provide a none-technical overview of the
 changes that will affect normal users of Persian text on computer.

No, not really.

 What I meant about U+060D is that I expected to find something about it
 in /UNIDATA/PropList.txt but it wasn't there. That is the reason I
 asked. Now I have figured it out. Both the applicable defaults and also
 explicitly in UnicodeData.txt. Sometimes I find UCD (Unicode Character
 Database) files confusing. Is there any hope they will be cleaned up
 further? For example, why not explicitly include characters in all
 expected places instead of relying on fallback and default properties?

I'm confused now.  What do you expect in PropList.txt about
U+060D?  If you read UCD.html, it says that files like
PropList.txt just list those code points that hold a true value
for the binary property.  Why they don't list the all??  Why
should the do?  There are more than a million of them, while
poins of interest are usually less than a thousand ones...

behdad

 - Hooman

 On Jun 24, 2004, at 12:17 AM, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

  On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 
  On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:
 
  Excellent news. While talking about clarifications, I couldn't find
  the
  properties for U+060D. Do you have information in this regard?
 
  No idea.  What kind of information are you looking for?  If this
  is what you like to hear, yes using that character instead of
  slash, solves your poblem of entering short dates. :-)
 
  Ok, here comes the more info from Chapter 8 of Unicode available
  online at:
 
  http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.0.0/ch08.pdf#G20596
 
  It says:
 
  Date Separator. U+060D ARABIC DATE SEPARATOR is used in Pakistan
  and India between the numeric date and the month name when
  writing out a date.  This sign is distinct from U+002F SOLIDUS,
  which is used, for example, as a separator in currency amounts.
 
 
  --behdad
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Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates

2004-06-23 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

  Excellent news. While talking about clarifications, I couldn't find the
  properties for U+060D. Do you have information in this regard?

 No idea.  What kind of information are you looking for?  If this
 is what you like to hear, yes using that character instead of
 slash, solves your poblem of entering short dates. :-)

Ok, here comes the more info from Chapter 8 of Unicode available
online at:

http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.0.0/ch08.pdf#G20596

It says:

Date Separator. U+060D ARABIC DATE SEPARATOR is used in Pakistan
and India between the numeric date and the month name when
writing out a date.  This sign is distinct from U+002F SOLIDUS,
which is used, for example, as a separator in currency amounts.


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Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates

2004-06-23 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

  BTW, Behdad is attending the Unicode Consortium's Technical Committee
  meeting right now, and later the ISO JTC1/SC2 ones. I'm sure the UTC
  meeting (which will be the first with a FarsiWeb member present) will
  have good news for us (which may include more changes and
  clarifications to the Bidirectional algorithm).

Yeah, I'm exceptionally happy with the outcome.  Since the
changes are highly technical, I don't go over them in this list.

 Excellent news. While talking about clarifications, I couldn't find the
 properties for U+060D. Do you have information in this regard?

No idea.  What kind of information are you looking for?  If this
is what you like to hear, yes using that character instead of
slash, solves your poblem of entering short dates. :-)

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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-20 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:


 On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

   we are *specifying* a single way to do
  things.

 Why the 2 calendars then?

Because in that case, both are acceptable and widely in use in
Iran.  In the case of putting Kasre in personal names, PUTTING
KASRE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.  Because more than 95% will tell you
they have never seen Kasre in PRINTED in personal names.

 -Connie

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Re: Quran Copyright

2004-06-19 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hi,

The Arabic text is not copyrighted in plain text, but any
annotated version is copyrighted, as well as any translation and
audio.  The rule is:  Everything is copyrighted unless proved
otherwise.

behdad


On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, S N wrote:

 Hello,
  I am trying to find some information on copyright issues
 related to Quran text. I would appreciate any suggestion that
 might point me to the right direction. In developing a software
 containing the Quran text, what should I take into
 consideration in terms of what's subject to copyright laws?
  I don't think the Arabic text is copyrighted. What about any
 translations? How about audio (recitations)?
  I see various Arabic Texts, translations, and recitations
 available on the Internet, but none of them seem to be
 copyrighed.

 As I mentioned above, any help is greatly appreciated.

 Regards,

 Saeed Nadjariun
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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-18 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:


 On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

  Come on Connie, you're still to provide a real example, from the
  books or streets whatever.

 The streets stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun
 intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published
 books:


I'm not convinced with your examples.  I don't accept them as
authentic.  Let's see inside:

 http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg

While it looks like they have put all Kasre's, but there's none
after Moini, which is evidently pronounced in more places that
the one after Rahim.

 http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg

Naaser-e Khosro is a WEIRD. I have never heard anyone pronounce
it like that.  Everyone just says naaser-khosro just like it's
a single word.  And again, it's not first-last name combination.

 http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg

I pretty share Mr Khanban's opinion here.  To me, ma'soome-ye
ma'dan-kan looks like anything but personal name.  What about
ma'soom-e haftom?

 -Connie

The bottom line:  Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are
people printing that thing in reality.  I don't like to argue
about how widely it's used anymore.  If someone has an evidence
of Persian Academy putting this Kasre, please bring the issue up
again for our reconsideration.

Thanks,
--behdad
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Re: khatt e Farsi

2004-06-18 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:

 Hi folks,

  What I want to conclude on khatt e Farsi debate considering
 member's ideas (at least for myself) is:

  1- For Arabic Script equivalent in Unicode locale for our
 language, alefba ye arabi seems acceptable to me. Script has
 two translations as Behdad mentioned to me 1-/khatt/
 2-/alefba/. However, because of addition of Persian specific
 characters /p/,/g/,/zh/, and /ch/ we'd better call it
 alefbaye farsi-arabi which is equivalent to what Conie said
 Perso-Arabic Script. Iranians have contributed to this
 alphabet any way. khatte arabi has lots of cultural and
 national issues, one of which ignoring our linguistic heritage,
 the efforts our ancestors did to adapt the new writing system
 to our language.

Did I said that?  alefbaa is simply Alphabet.


 2- For our writing system we use khatt e Farsi. It may be
 translated to Persian Script but should not be used for Unicode
 locale description. khatt is not merely writing styles, it
 has language specific rules and structures. No Arab is able to
 read our khatt correctly unless (s)he has knowledge of
 Persian language.

No matter an Arab can read it or not, but it's the same script.
Reading deals with language.  A German can't read English text
either unless he knows the rules, same for a Frenchman, ...

 After resolving this issue, I try to go through the nice draft
 and give my suggestions if any.

 Good luck,

 Peyman

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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-18 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

 On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

  The bottom line:  Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are
  people printing that thing in reality.

 Behdad,

 I'm so glad you also now see that to *forbid* marking ezaafe in personal
 names is absurd.

Well, not quite that.  First, we never wanted to *forbid* that,
just that we say the right way is not to put.  Second, my
expression is quite like this: Thanks, Connie, you showed us
that there are people printing Arabic Yeh instead of Persian Yeh
in reality.  Can you deduce from this sentence that using Arabic
Yeh instead of Persian Yeh should not be forbidden?  (And in fact
a few people like Dariush Ashoori do that intentionally.)

 Have a really nice day!

You too.

 -Connie

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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-14 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:


 On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

   Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan
   a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though.
 
  Eagerly waiting for them.

 As I said, I'm not even looking in books till this evening, however, even
 though someone was recently saying Google can't handle harakat, I decided
 to try my luck and the first name I tried, Shirin-e Ebadi gave me this:
 http://www.kanoon-nevisandegan-iran.org/Shirin.htm
 (look in the second line of text)

 Another:
 http://www.vajehmagazine.com/archive/no_2/dialog.asp
 (line 15: Sohraab-e Sepehri)

 There are zillions. How many examples will you guys be needing?

I don't see any zillions, hardly a handul of them for your two
examples.  Compare with... errr..

 -Connie

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Personal names survey

2004-06-12 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hi Connie,

To be honest, I have NEVER seen anyone put Kasre in personal
names.  I just tried all books in my small shelf and NONE of them
had kasre on the cover page.  Note that all of these books have
been bought in the past year in Tehran (Enghelaab).  Here is the
list of names I checked for curious:


Nasim Daavari
AbooToraab Khosravi
NikAahang Kowsar
Seyyed Ebraahim Nabavi (3)
Jey Di Salinjer (8)
Ahmad Golshiri
Hooshang Golshiri (6)
Mostafaa Mastoor (4)
Mishel Foko
Maani Haghighi
M. Aazaad va Said Tavakkoli
Asadollaah Amraaii
Reymond Kaarver (4)
Farzaane Taaheri
Ja'far Modarres Saadeghi
Shirin Ta'aavoni (Khaaleghi)
Meelaad Zakariaa (:D)
Mohammad Najafi
Itaalo Kaalvino (3)
Mohsen Ebraahim
Seyyed Mohammad Ali Jamalzaadeh
Kort Vone-gaat Joyner
Eyn. Alef. Bahraami
Negaar Saadeghi
Ali Abdollaahi
Hermaan Hese
Keykaavos Jahaandaari
Haaynrish Bol (3)
Naataali Choobineh
Ahmad Shamlou (5)
Fedriko Gaarsiaa Lorkaa
Abdolkarim Soroush (2)
Iniaatsio Siloneh (2)
Mehdi Sahaabi (2)
Mohammad Ghaazi
Simon Dobovaar
Roman Gaari
Soroush Habibi
Tooraj Rahnamaa
Farzaad Hemmati
MohammadRezaa Farzaad
Feredrish Vilhelm Niche
Dariush Ashouri
Abbaas Ma'roufi
Zoyaa Pirzaad (2)
Simin Daaneshvar
Bozorg Alavi
GholaamHossein Saa'edi
Saadegh Hedaayat (2)
Noam Chaamski
Koorosh Safavi
Ahmad Kasravi
MohammadRezaa Baateni
MohammadRezaa Mohammadi-Far (9)
Aandri Taarkofski
Hooshang Hesaami
YaarAli PoorMoghaddam (5)
...


So, here it is.  Do you still say all the time?  If you still
insist on that, I'm afraid your opinion should not be counted,
because apparently it's not the practice in Tehran.


behdad




On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

 On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

   Many
  other things may also be optional (like how to write ordibehesht,
  zi-hajje, or hejdah), but we are only allowing one,

 There is no comparison between these and the personal name topic.
 You are giving incomplete and wrong information.
 And you have every right to do so too so don't let me stop you. However,
 now that I've pointed it out, I know that even though I'm not going
 to say another word on this topic, you'll fix it. How do I know? I've come
 to know your ways very well after so many years. You'll see.

   all the time. Sorry!
 
  Then you need to define all the time. I don't see a Kasra in the
  author's name on this book that is sitting on my desk.

 Well, all the time does not, in fact, mean all the time in English.
 It just means all the time. You know, a synonym for sometimes!
 Why do you have to always be so hard on the poor molla from Qazvin?

 -Connie
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Re: khaat e Farsi

2004-06-11 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:

 Conclusion: You can say that the origin of our alphabet is
 Arabic but you can not claim that our writing system is Arabic.
 Our writing system is Persian khaat e farsi. It is what
 my teacher Dr. Safavi as a linguist says in his book and what I
 also say as a linguist.

We have been all talking about the script (which you call it
alphabet), not writing system.  And if they call both of them
khat-e farsi in Persian, that may be the source of the problem.

 Just let me know if more linguists are needed to testify :)
 however, what linguists believed and struggled to say has been
 ignored extensively during past years. Dr Bateni proposed a
 minor change to our writing system long ago in order to better
 serve the Persian language; and they ignored him and fired him
 from the Tehran university because of political and religious
 red lines.

 Peyman


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Re: khaat e Farsi

2004-06-10 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

The book can very easily be biased.  The sentence ...
dastkhosh-e taghiraati besiaar jaaleb shod, ke neshaangar-e
aagaahi-e iraaniaan az daanesh-e zabaansheniaasi ast. is far
from justified.

Don't know why, but it reminds me of the Persian vs. Farsi
problem...


On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:

 The attached .jpg is a text from the book pishineye zabane
 farsi written by Dr. Safavi.

 Peyman

--behdad
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Re: khaat e Farsi

2004-06-10 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Thanks a lot Hooman for clarification.

Also about the attachment we saw, note that Naskh, Nasta'liq,
Koofi, etc are all different calligraphic styles of the same
Arabic script.  So even the attachment saying khatt-e naskh ...
khatt-e faarsi naam gerefti is completely non-sense here.

There are much more important things that define the script, not
the number of letter, calligraphic styles, pronounciations, etc.
The fact that you can read what's written in those 20 countries
without any training, and that there exist situations that you
simply can't tell between them, is what matters IMO.

And note that it's quite natural that most of us have not ever
heard such a grouping before, but all linguists will tell you
this is the Arabic (or Perso-Arabic) script.


behdad

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Re: Mirroring in Unicode

2004-06-10 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Hi Ordak,

This is not a problem in the Unicode Bidi Algorithm, not even in
Microsoft's implementation of the algorithm.  And mirroring seems
to be working quite well.  The problem is in the higher level
protocols of your system, which simply does not recognize
right-to-left paragraphs.

So your paragraph direction is left-to-right, and that's why
you see it like that.  Microsoft systems have no way of
auto-detecting paragraph directions.  In notepad you can set the
whole document direction to rtl or ltr.  In MS Word you can set
direction for individual paragraphs.

GNOME has recently applied a marvelous patch to autodetect
paragraph directions in the most sophisticated way, so we're just
having fun with our text editors ;-).

behdad


On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 I noticed that certain mirrored characters appear semanticly wrong on
 my Windows XP machine. I have no idea if it is a problem of Unicode
 BIDI specs or is due to Windows XP imeplementation. I describe the
 problem here, hoping people who know Unicode better pinpoint the
 source of it.

 I if type in:  (farsi), that is the sequence T A R SP ( f a r s i )
 (capital stands for RTL text), the result is RAT (farsi)

 However, if I type in  () that is the sequence T A R SP ( F A R S 
 I )
 the result is  ISRAF) RAT)

 Obvisouly the parenthesis are wrong in the second example. Now, if
 this is a unicode spec problem, I think they need to fix this. How the
 above text appears on other platforms?

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-09 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hi all,

Well, it depends on your point of view.  Instead of bringing the
Pashto or Ordu case, lets have a look at the western equivalent.
They all call it Latin Script (khatte laatin), right?  It's not
about language or font-style.  And in computer software that's
what really matters.

Moreover from another point of view--the Unicode standard--we are
using the Arabic script, there's no such thing as Persian script
encoded in the Unicode standard.

behdad

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:

 Hi,

 The name of the script, as in attachment, seems wrong. According to the
 constitution, the name of the language and script is Farsi (Persian).
 Look at
 http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-2.html and
 http://www.moi.gov.ir/ghavanin/asasi.htm#three

 I know that Persian script comes from Arabic and many may know it as
 Arabic, but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script called
 Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?

 Best
 -ali-

 Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
 specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
 to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
 the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:
 
http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
 
 Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
 get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
 maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
 [EMAIL PROTECTED], or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
 to us at the following address:
 
Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
PO Box 13445-389
Tehran, Iran
 
 Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free
 documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the
 license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are
 able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain
 conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is
 copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to
 do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the
 information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in
 proprietary software.
 
 The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of
 Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of
 Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping
 in the funding.
 
 I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar,
 Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing
 community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the
 main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me.
 
 Roozbeh Pournader
 Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
 
 
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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-08 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 22:50, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
  Over our dead body!  The whole world is still to solve that
  cursor movement problem, and you expect...

 I expect to solve that ourselves (say, FarsiWeb and FriBidi teams), at
 least for the perspective of Persian and Iranian users. Is it *that*
 hard?

So don't say it this way that they are doing this great project
which will save the humanity blah blah...  You still get excited
by those words?

 We don't need to pass over our own dead bodies. They will fund, we will
 solve their problem.

IRI is IRI, period.  By the way, yes, it IS that hard, the cursor
problem at least.

 roozbeh

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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-08 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 Let me inject my foolish questions in the middle of this hot flaming
 discussion. What is the cursor problem exactly? And why is it hard to
 solve? Is there an FAQ on open problems in Persian Computing?

Hi there,

Well, the cursor problem is not Persian-specific, but
bidi-specific.  The problem is that in a text editor with mixed
right-to-left and left-to-right, you have a cursor and Left and
Right arrow to navigate in the text.  Now design the movement and
cursor shape such that it behaves in an expected/easy to
learn/predictable way.

About a list of open problems, no, there's no such thing yet, but
Roozbeh and I compiled a similar list sometime back that I don't
have it anymore.

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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-08 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:

 And, if someone starts a list, please add the problem of selecting a
 mixed text (english/persian) with a mouse. No matter what you do, or how
 experienced you are, you'll always get surprised.

Yeah, that's known as the twin of the cursor problem.

 Roozbeh, is it possible to create a wiki for persian computing?
 so people would describe their problems /known bugs there? or
 am I just talking from _the_ unpleasant organ of my body?

No, you are talking about a very pleasant organ of your body ;-).
The wiki is already planned for FarsiWeb, we can open a section
to public.


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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-08 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 13:44, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
  So don't say it this way that they are doing this great project
  which will save the humanity blah blah...  You still get excited
  by those words?

 I am excited, since I saw some output from the people involved: A
 commercial probabilistic English to Persian translation engine, a tagged
 corpus of pronunciations for lots of standard Persian, an OCR that
 worked wonderfully for handwritten disjoint Persian letters, and a
 script that inserted all the kasre-ye ezaafes automatically (which
 worked not only on whole sentences, but even on things like book
 titles).

 Let's just say this: Isn't a database of famous people and places' names
 and their Persian translation not exciting if released as Open Source,
 something that tells you Democritus is zimeghraatis and Casablanca is
 daar ol-beyzaa? Specially if someone already has it?


These indeed look exciting, but in my laptop, not theirs.


 I get excited when I see people who have done something that stays with
 us. I get excited when they mention they'll be doing everything Open
 Source without anybody pushing them. And it was not only me.


Sure, if it really stays with *us*.  They'll be doing is what I
asked if you still get excited about.  Man, how many yours you
have been in this business?


  IRI is IRI, period.

 Does that make everybody living in IRI a fool?!


No, but any project run by IRI a foolish dumb one with no results
wasting oil money.  You know I'm so disappointed about the
National Persian Linux project.


  By the way, yes, it IS that hard, the cursor
  problem at least.

 I know. But it's not something unsolvable by the FarsiWeb team, at least
 theoretically. You don't agree?!


I'm afraid not.  I'm afraid one of these days I theoretically
prove it can't be solved.  But of course that would be
theoretically, not practically.  (that bidi is not reversible
simply means you can't get a 100% expected cursor position, huh?)

 roozbeh


BTW, guess enough of this thread.  Find another interesting thing
to continue this beautiful month.  :-)


Ok, Professor Yarshater, the author of the great Encyclopedia
Iranica[1] is going to be around in two weeks.  I may get the
chance to conduct a short interview with him.  So, ideas about
what to ask, what to focus, is appreciated.

[1] http://www.iranica.com/

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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-08 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:19, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:
  Roozbeh, is it possible to create a wiki for persian computing?

 That is *planned* for FarsiWeb's website. I'm sure Behnam Esfahbod and
 Elnaz Sarbar will announce here the good news about the new FarsiWeb
 website, when it became ready.

 roozbeh

Oh, so it's a Who answers first competition? :D.  az khodam bepors ;-).


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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-08 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:33, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
  About a list of open problems, no, there's no such thing yet, but
  Roozbeh and I compiled a similar list sometime back that I don't
  have it anymore.

 And I don't even remember doing it! :'-(

 When was it?

:)).  Well we have done it a few times, but I meant the tentative
list we prepared for that Persian Linux project, but that ain't
nothing.

 roozbeh

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Persian in Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1)]

2004-06-08 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Any volunteer to import FarsiWeb's locale document into CLDR
please?  The current Persian data in CLDR is absolute junk.

b

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 -Forwarded Message-
 From: Rick McGowan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: New versions of the Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1)
 Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 09:03:48 -0700

 The Unicode Consortium announced today the release of new versions of the
 Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1) and the Locale Data Markup
 Language specification (LDML 1.1), providing key building blocks for
 software to support the world's languages. This new release contains data
 for 247 locales, covering 78 languages and 118 countries. There are also 36
 draft locales in the process of being developed, covering an additional 17
 languages and 7 countries.

 For more information, see http://news.google.com/news?q=CLDR

 Regards,
   Rick McGowan
   Unicode, Inc.


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Re: UI problems in editing BiDi texts.

2004-06-08 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hi Ordak,

The message you sent is not complete, right?  And you know, this
problem cannot be solved without implementation.  Because the
Unicode bidi algorithm we are implementing is such a beast with
those things called directional embeddings and blah blah.  BTW,
please go on and elaborate, we get the idea.

Thanks
behdad


On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 Following up the old thread, here is my attempt to understand the
 problem. We may then agree on a desired behavior, and then on an
 implemenation.

 The problems appear when typing a text in a BiDi enabled editor. it
 seems to three categories of concren.

 1) When typing a bilingual text, the cursor jumps unexpectedly. An
 example, is when I type HERE IS SOME RTL TEXT, (where UPPERCASE
 stands for RTL characters), in notepad or any input line, the cursor
 (denoted by |) and text appear as follows:
 |
 |EH
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-08 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

 On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:

  We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents;
 There is a big difference between *we never write* and
 *we sometimes write*. Obviously, you DO mark the ezafeh in
 certain situations.
 In this case, if the draft says says that one may not
 mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either
 that's a new rule or the draft is wrong. I see that written, especially
 for authors on book titles all time.

No this is not a new rule, nor the spec is wrong.  They *never*
write that in Iran.  You may write mohsen-e rezaai only for
example to distinguish it from mohsen-e rafsanjaani, but this
way the two parts of the name are appearing as two different
phrases, not one.

 -Connie

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Kasre Ezafe in proper names, Was Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran

2004-06-08 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

 Well, you were very helpful with the ghash-gir topic so what is
 your problem here?  Here, I will ask this: Do you agree that
 sometimes you say, behdaad-e esfahbod and other times you say, behdaad
 esfahbod? (Note, I said *say*, not *write* for now.) And my next
 question is going to be, when?

Ok, as I said in another mail, you say behdaad-e esfahbod when
you want to differentiate from behdaad-e pournader.  Just that.


 That should keep you busy for a while!

 -Connie

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Re: IRI funded projects like Persian Linux (Was Re: something else)

2004-06-08 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:51, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

  Man, how many yours you
  have been in this business?

 I can't remember. Many. And seeing how little amount of output I have
 produced, I'm clearly a waster of my time, it seems.

Come on.  This is one of those tricks of yours ;-).  I mean how
many people you have seen *interested* in doing Open Source and
left without warning...

  No, but any project run by IRI a foolish dumb one with no results
  wasting oil money.

 The project won't be run by IRI. It will be run by an NGO.

I don't get all this NGO thing.  The money it comes from oil,
passing a handful of hops, divided by two a handful of times...


  You know I'm so disappointed about the
  National Persian Linux project.

 That project is generally wasting oil money, I agree. Better work can be
 done much cheaper with a much better quality.

 BTW, the Persian Computing community may be interested to see the
 technical output of certain projects there. I personally appreciate any
 discussion of the following documents here on this mailing list:

 Good (a specification and implementation for Persian fonts):
   http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/10/opentype.zip

Very good.  Contains a list very good reference font for Persian
font designers.

BTW, their patched Pango is next to useless to me, since there's
no patch provided, no information about when they did check out
Pango, etc.  Roozbeh, can you ask them for a set of patches
instead?  I can probably help feeding the patches to Owen Taylor.


 Bad (a specification for the Iranian calendar):
   http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/13/PersianCalendar3.pdf
   http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/13/PersianCalendar4.pdf


Not even worth the bandwidth! :(.


 Ugly (Compilation of some non-standard Persian fonts *released* by a
 project who is supposed to write a specification about requirements of a
 Persian keyboard driver for Linux):
   http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/6/Farsi_Font_Linux_2.zip

No comment.

  I'm afraid not.  I'm afraid one of these days I theoretically
  prove it can't be solved.

 I'd be happy enough with that. I'll call that a solution.

I know you will always be happy with this discoveries of mine
:-).

  (that bidi is not reversible
  simply means you can't get a 100% expected cursor position, huh?)

 Can't get the idea. You need to elaborate. But it's OK with me if you
 want to close the thread.

So I promise to go back to the joining code after this last reply :D.
I was just saying that since bidi is not reversible, you can't
predict the next cursor position, either in your logical, or
visual string.  Think a couple of seconds and you get the idea.
Remember Gaspar Sinai's concerns about bidi in Yudit?  Nothing
really new,  all I say is that there's no *perfect* solution out
there.  But that means nothing with the mess we have right now.


On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:55, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
  Well we have done it a few times, but I meant the tentative
  list we prepared for that Persian Linux project, but that ain't
  nothing.

 Yeah, that was not about Persian Computing. That was about
 internationalizing and localizing GNU/Linux software for Persian.

I believe the GNU/Linux part has just been the medium.  But Ok,
it was not about details, but the big picture.  So, we are all
waiting for the wiki.

BTW, I'm living with this song of Bob Dylan these days:

http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/hattie.html

TC
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-07 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Thanks a lot Roozbeh for making the release.

Just the first point to discuss:  People use sadom-e saaniye,
not milli saanie.  You can hear it in IRI news too.

Also, tak tak should be written using ZWNJ, no matter what
orthography regulations you use.

More later.
behdad


On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
 specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
 to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
 the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:

http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf

 Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
 get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
 maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
 [EMAIL PROTECTED], or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
 to us at the following address:

Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
PO Box 13445-389
Tehran, Iran

 Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free
 documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the
 license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are
 able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain
 conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is
 copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to
 do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the
 information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in
 proprietary software.

 The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of
 Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of
 Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping
 in the funding.

 I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar,
 Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing
 community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the
 main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me.

 Roozbeh Pournader
 Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.


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Re: [History] My Story, part 1 (1236 words)

2004-06-07 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hi Hooman,

Thanks for the very interesting story.  Although your story
started roughly when I was born, but a great sense of deja vu
still roams around yours.  More comments below:

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 It was the second semester and we had a basic programming course on
 FORTRAN 66. We were punching cards and putting our deck of cards in the
 queue to be batch processed by Control Data CDC-6000 mainframe

Did they show you that CDC-6000 in Sharif Computing Center?  It's
still there and we had a great time discovering different
technologies inside that.

 The main difference between Pishkar/Sayeh glyph set and Iran System
 gyph set was that Iran System was strictly mono-spaced and one byte per
 glyph but Pishkar/Sayeh used special tail glyphs to better display wide
 glyphs (using two glyph parts). The reason that ultimately Iran System
 prevailed was its relative simplicity from a programmer's point of
 view. From a user's perspective, Pishkar/Sayeh solution was preferable
 because it was much more readable.

Yes, I remember using that.  It was far more readable than Iran
System.

 - Hooman Mehr

 P.S.: Am I too far off topic? Too self centered? Please provide
 feedback.

No you are exactly on the track.


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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-07 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 21:20, C Bobroff wrote:
  Now, do you have any more questions before [hopefully] heading off to bed?

 OK, my mom just called. She was a little upset. ;-)

 BTW, wait for the news from the next cool thing, called tarh-e jaame'-e
 gostaresh-e kaarbari-e zabaan-e faarsi. The guys involved are wonderful
 (incomparable to any other such meetings I've attended), and they are
 planning to create things much better than your Sokhan Dictionary in the
 process, like a Persian equivalent of the Collins Cobuild dictionary.
 And at the same time, things like, let's say, a Unicode compliant text
 editor whose cursor doesn't jump around unexpectedly, and a standard
 about how to markup synchronous text, speech, and translations and then
 a tool to convert it to a web page (like what Connie does sometimes
 manually). And guess what? All the output will be Open Source!

Over our dead body!  The whole world is still to solve that
cursor movement problem, and you expect...

 Keep a look here for saner announcements. I need to rush home.

 roozbeh

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-07 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

 On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf

 Congratulations on getting a new typist who is not allergic to
 Hamzeh's!
 But where did all the Kasreh's marking Ezafeh's go this time? And why no
 ZWNJ on plural -Ha's?

Well, Roozbeh should give the answer, but my guess:  It's typeset
in Persian Academy's orthography.

 Is that really true you aren't supposed to put a written Kasreh after
 given names? I know it's definitely not ok (spoken or written) with
 Rezaa ending in long aa but with Mohsen ending in a consonant? I
 believe it is common to both write and pronounce the -e there between
 given and family name. Please inform me.

No, Kasreh Ezafe is neither used in written names, nor in spoken
formally.

 By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian and
 it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and all
 the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards
 from left to right.  I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It ends up
 in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets!

No idea.

 -Connie

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RE: Misinformation!

2004-06-04 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Thanks for you note.

There's a difference in the case of C++ standard and web
standards:  Writing non-standard C++ code only produces
compile-time problems, but if you happen to compile the code, it
works correctly (or supposed to do so).  But it's quite a
different case in web.  30-40 percent is low enough to get
ignored, counting that the other way you are sacrificing the
other 60-70% for not being able to find the document by searching
in Google.  And note that even with Win9x and a recent IE, and
updated fonts, there's no problem.

About using HTML entities, no matter what the encoding of the
page is, HTML entities generate Unicode characters.  It's quite
common to see people exporting Persian documents in MS Word, and
get an HTML page encoded in MS Arabic encoding, with Persian Yeh
and Keh encoded in HTML entities.

behdad

PS.  BTW, I just found that using Harakat (kasre, fathe, ...)
also prevent a hit in Google search :(.  That's quite expected,
but perhaps I should reconsider my habbit of putting those tiny
marks everywhere.

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

  Unfortunately this kind of misinforming is quite popular in weblogs,
  where people only care about being visible to more people.

 I confess that I'm one of those who use this technique on their web sites.
 I don't believe it's correct, and I don't think of it even as a semi-elegant
 solution.  It's a solution which just works on the largest number of
 platforms.  By inspecting the web server logs, I notice that still an
 average of 30-40 percent of the visitors are using Win9x.  Hopefully one can
 start dropping support for Win9x users as their number is constantly
 decreasing, but right now if I choose the standards compliant route of using
 FARSI YEH everywhere, those Win9x-ers will not be able to browse my sites.

 I have a high respect and tendency to the standards.  I'm mostly a C++
 programmer, and I'm one of those preachers of the C++ Standard.  However,
 today's C++ compilers are still not fully compliant to the C++ Standard, so
 whenever someone asks me for advice on how to accomplish a certain task on a
 non-conformant compiler, I show them the non-standards way, and also mention
 the standards way, so that they know what the *right* way is, and also what
 the way to do their job right now is.  I see little difference in the web
 standards land as well.

 Of course this 'solution' (if it can be called so) poses other problems,
 such as the inability of correctly indexing of such words with both forms of
 YEH by search engine spiders such as Google's, which must be addressed
 separately.  Also, if you choose to use the FARSI YEH form everywhere, then
 again such problems will occur (such as a Win9x-er can neither correctly see
 your pages nor fine them in Google; if they query for a word containing
 YEH.)

  They even go on and use HTML entities (like #1626;) instead of UTF-8,
  just because if the user's browser is set to something other than auto
  and UTF-8, the page is still rendered correctly...

 This one is silly, and I don't see how this can solve any problem.  The
 browsers are required to be able to correctly resolve such numerical
 entities only if the page's encoding is already UTF-8, and if it is so, why
 not use UTF-8 encoded characters in the first place?  Also, some agents have
 difficulties interpreting such numerical forms.  Furthermore, maintaining
 them is impossible (not hard), and even they can't be treated as text by
 most software packages (for example, they can't be searched for by many
 programs.)  And the last, but not least, for a regular Persian document,
 they're likely to increase the document size by more than two times.

 They have their own usage, of course, but I don't see any sense in using
 them instead of UTF-8 characters for regular web pages.

 -
 Ehsan Akhgari

 Farda Technology (http://www.farda-tech.com/)

 List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 [ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
 [ WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ]



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Re: Misinformation!

2004-06-04 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hi there,

Well, this approach has been investigated by some people already.
Another approach that is easier to implement is use a javascript
to translate the page on the browser side.  For people using PHP,
it's a couple on lines to open an output buffer that does the
translation, and I'm sure we've seen that before in this list.

But to the main question, unfortunately no, Unicode does not
define any kind of loose searching.  There are some loose
equivalency data in Unicode database, but that apparently does
not include cases like Arabic and Persian Yeh.  We at FarsiWeb
are developing an standard for loose searching in Persian, but
you know that's nothing to be implemented by Google.  It's
generally a tough problem.  You can do much better in
language-specific area, but a global loose searching scheme, I
guess, typically gives a worse precision/recall, so will be
avoided by search engines.

behdad


On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 Here is a solution (in fact a hack) that if implemented correctly, can
 resolve some of the issues till people and Google start using correct
 software:

 With a little tweaking, the web servers can translate the correct
 Unicode to the incorrect unicode desired so much by the Win9X users.
 That is, the web severs looks at the browser request, and if it can
 detect Win9X, translates all U+06CC's in the document to U+064A (and
 all other required translations). The same technique could be used to
 fool google into generating correct search results. That, is the web
 server generates a Win9X friendly version of the document and appends
 it to the original document. You can also allocate tags that the user
 of the web server can disable or enable some of these features. This
 may even make one gain some advatnage over other web hosting
 companies.

 Of course, the solution above is only a transient one, and it is up to
 people to upgrade their Win9X machines to something that is
 Unicode-compliant, also it is up to Google to program their systems
 such that it can understand that both U+06CC and U+064A are the same
 shape and hence should be regarded the same for searching unless user
 requests otherwise. This is the same as case-insensitive search that
 is usually implemented by mapping all upper and lower case characters
 -- in documents and queries alike -- to uppercase.

 Behdad, does Unicode consortium provide a search collation table in
 addition to the collation table used for sorting? Or can the same
 table be used for this seach purposes as well?

 On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 08:50:41 -0400, Behdad Esfahbod
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Thanks for you note.
 
  There's a difference in the case of C++ standard and web
  standards:  Writing non-standard C++ code only produces
  compile-time problems, but if you happen to compile the code, it
  works correctly (or supposed to do so).  But it's quite a
  different case in web.  30-40 percent is low enough to get
  ignored, counting that the other way you are sacrificing the
  other 60-70% for not being able to find the document by searching
  in Google.  And note that even with Win9x and a recent IE, and
  updated fonts, there's no problem.
 
  About using HTML entities, no matter what the encoding of the
  page is, HTML entities generate Unicode characters.  It's quite
  common to see people exporting Persian documents in MS Word, and
  get an HTML page encoded in MS Arabic encoding, with Persian Yeh
  and Keh encoded in HTML entities.
 
  behdad
 
  PS.  BTW, I just found that using Harakat (kasre, fathe, ...)
  also prevent a hit in Google search :(.  That's quite expected,
  but perhaps I should reconsider my habbit of putting those tiny
  marks everywhere.
 
 
  On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
 
Unfortunately this kind of misinforming is quite popular in weblogs,
where people only care about being visible to more people.
  
   I confess that I'm one of those who use this technique on their web sites.
   I don't believe it's correct, and I don't think of it even as a semi-elegant
   solution.  It's a solution which just works on the largest number of
   platforms.  By inspecting the web server logs, I notice that still an
   average of 30-40 percent of the visitors are using Win9x.  Hopefully one can
   start dropping support for Win9x users as their number is constantly
   decreasing, but right now if I choose the standards compliant route of using
   FARSI YEH everywhere, those Win9x-ers will not be able to browse my sites.
  
   I have a high respect and tendency to the standards.  I'm mostly a C++
   programmer, and I'm one of those preachers of the C++ Standard.  However,
   today's C++ compilers are still not fully compliant to the C++ Standard, so
   whenever someone asks me for advice on how to accomplish a certain task on a
   non-conformant compiler, I show them the non-standards way, and also mention
   the standards way, so that they know what the *right* way is, and also what
   the way

Re: Persian-English Dictionary

2004-06-03 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Just my last words:

* Like Mr Khanban, as I wrote in my long report before, I checked
it with the one-volume Aryanpur dictionary and all 20 entries I
checked matched perfectly.

* Even if people have changed 90% of it, the rest 10% is
copyrighted by Aryanpurs.  Copyright holders accumulate, not
replaced.

* Every individual is responsible to make sure he's not
infringing anyone's copyright.  In other words, you are
responsible to check the software you are handed in is done so
legally.

* No I'm not joining the joy in sharing the Aryanpur dictionary.

Thanks
behdad



On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:

 Hi,

 I just repeat an old story again. I don't want to prove or disprove or
 claim anything.

 About ten years ago, there was a dictionary in DOS environment written
 by Bahman Sabouri (if I recall correctly) with a database claimed to be
 based on Aryanpour dictionary. I can accpet that claim because I checked
 many of its entries against a one-volume Aryanpour dictionary and it
 seemed to be the right source (One-volume Aryanpour dictionary by
 AmirKabir publishing co.). It has the ability to add words to the
 database. By the time I had that copy of the software, the database had
 some extra words added by previous users. I decoded the database and
 created a text file. Then I started to modify it and correct mis-spelled
 words and typos and anything I thought must be changed. I didn't intend
 to do anything with it at the time. I did it just out of curiosity and
 challenge. Masood Hashemi was and is a friend of mine and was our FoxPro
 master in the department. We decided to use that data for a FoxPro
 dictionary and he did the job. Because I was the one who somehow had
 provided the data and he was the programmer, both of our names were in
 the program as the authors. I saw a copy of that program a few years ago
 in Shiraz, in one of my visits to Shiraz medical university.

 Now, if we accept that the data in Masood Hashemi's online dictionary is
 the same data, which is a strong guess, then by this short history you
 know exactly how that was provided. I should add that at the time of
 that DOS software, we were not aware of any possible copy right on this
 data, as I believe neither was the original author. Or maybe the fact
 was that no one cared about it, even AmirKabir publishing co. who was
 the Aryanpour publisher. I am not sure, anyway.

 Best
 -ali-

 Pedram Safari wrote:

 
 In any case, I would like to testify again that the program is written
 by Masood Hashemi, so there is no copyright infringement if his share in
 this work, and his willingness to make it available to the public, is
 acknowledged and appreciated. There has been no official claim yet by
 anyone on the source of the database (I think Majid Khanban said that he 
 supervised a project by Masood Hashemi and someone else from which this database 
 came out, but he couldn't recall the name of the other person, am I right, Majid?). 
 Neither any official claim by anyone on the dictionary content, unless you, 
 Behdad, are Aryanpours' official attorney.
 
 As I had promised before, I would give appropriate credits in my
 dictionary page to the person who could produce convincing proof of
 his/her involvement in that project.
 
 



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Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-02 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

 Also I just heard from Ali Samadi that the Iranian Mac User group (in
 Persian) is actually at:
 http://www.irmug.org
 (I think I had a mistake earlier.)

 -Connie

Hi Connie,

I appreciate it if when you are mentioning this Iranian Mac
Users Group  on any of your pages, you also mention there that
their dictionary available for download is infringing copyright
of the Aryanpours, and the credits went to Masoud Hashemi are not
justified.

I guess I did my part on showing the community, including Dr
Pedram Safari, that the claim by Masoud Hashemi regarding
authoring the dictionary which is apparently Aryanpour, is not
justified.  Whether people remove the dictionary from their pages
or not is up to them.


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Re: LeapYears of Iranian Calendar

2004-05-24 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

So, to conclude, I think we better don't touch the 33
implementations we have until we've got a real calendar.  Just
talking about FarsiWeb of course.  Other people are free about
what they choose.

behdad


On Mon, 24 May 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 I did some more research on the accuracy of different leap year
 algorithms. My conclusion is that unless there is an implementation of
 an astronomical algorithm, we SHALL use the 33 year period, as it
 gives the best estimates for near future and near past. That is, use
 the following:
 bool isLeapYear = ((y*8+29)%33)  8;

 I used the following table of vernal equinox times for years 1788-2011:
 http://www.newscotland1398.net/equinox/vern1788.html
 I computed the length of year for each year. and unfortunately, I
 could not find any simple curve to fit the length of years.
 Assuming that the real vernal equinox does not differ from the table above
 by more than +/- 10 minutes, and that the noon will be at 12:04:20,
 I am convinced that this formula is correct at a minimum from 1178 to 1468.
 At the same time, the Birashk's method and hence Omid K. Rad's implementation
 are only correct from 1244 to 1402.

 Another way to interpret this email is that Birashk's method fails to
 correctly predict the year 1403, and hence if we use that mehtod, all
 dates in year 1404 will be off by one day. On the other hand, using
 the 33 year period mentioned above works fine until year 1468.

 So, for all applications that need to convert near-term dates, my
 recommendation is to use a 33-year implemntation, like the one found
 at http://www.farsiweb.info or
 the one at http://www.payvand.com/calendar/.

 --
 ODC
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Re: LeapYears of Iranian Calendar

2004-05-20 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Thu, 20 May 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 Ordak's 2820 year method:
 bool isLeap2820ODC = ((683*year+542) % 2820)  683;

 in comparison to:

 Birashk's 2820 year method:
 bool isLeap2820Birashk = ((year % 2820) == 474) ||
  (((31 * ((year+2345) % 2820)) % 128)  96);

I second that.  Here is my version, in a desktop calculator
friendly (and macrowize side-effect-less) way:

#define is_persian_leap(y) y)-474)%2820+2820)%2820*31%12831)


 The discrepancies will be in:
 years that Ordak considers leap but not Birashk
 603, 731, 859, 1787, 1915, 2043, 2171, 2299, 2427, 2460, 2555, 2588,
 2683, 2716, 2811, 2844, 2939, 2972, 3067, 3100, 3133, 3195, 3228,
 3261, 3295

 and
 years that Birashk considers leap but not Ordak
 602, 730, 858, 1788, 1916, 2044, 2172, 2300, 2428, 2461, 2556, 2589,
 2684, 2717, 2812, 2845, 2940, 2973, 3068, 3101, 3134, 3196, 3229,
 3262, 3294

 Caveat:
 According to:
 http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/TropicalYear.html
 The length of year is decreasing each year. According to graphs in
 http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/calendrics/
 The real length of vernal equinox year (Iranian year) is increasing
 each year (from 351 BC to 3175 A.D.) According to Iranian tradition,
 vernal equinox should happen before noon (I think it means
 astronomical noon). So, there is not much we can do with simple
 algorithms other than trying to approximate the real world, and
 understanding the fact that ALL calendar algorithms are only
 APPROXIMATIONS.

 --
 ODC

Well, so what do you suggest?  Working on an approximate
astronomical algorithm or go with Birashk's?

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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-18 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Hi Ordak,

Lemme welcome you to our list.  Comments below.

On Tue, 18 May 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 - As the lunar calendar in Iran is observation based, there is no way
 to have an exact conversion for a date in future to/from lunar
 calendar. However, it is possible to do so for past dates. What I
 suggest is that the implementation SHALL convert dates precisely for
 past dates, and do a best guess conversion for future dates. Hence,
 the conversion algorithm (or a related resource) needs to be updated
 at most 12 times a year, and in case of Iran, only at the beginning of
 Ramadhan and Shawwal. This update could as well be propagated through
 a network protocol like NTP (Network Time Protocol).
 Also, the conversion shall try to conform to the official published
 Iranian calendar for future dates in the same year. For future years,
 it should calculate the lunar calendar using astronomical methods.

That has been our (FarsiWeb's) idea too.  BTW, the protocol
better be XML-RPC over HTTP.

 - Mordad vs. Amordad. I have seen both in calendars, but I guess I do
 not count, as I have been out of Iran for a long time now! Anyway, I
 have only seen Amordad in day planners marketed at the higher end. So,
 in my opinion, Mordad or Amordad are both fine. Although I prefer to
 see Mordad myself. But, I think this should be a user option. And does
 not need to be implemented at the convesion level Omid is working on.

I still vote for Mordad.  Using Amordad is like writing
Ordi-Behesht instead of Ordibehesh.  The fact is that, languages
change over time.  It's like using Shaksepearean English.

 - b.z vs. asr. I do not know the flexibility of the API, but it would
 be nice if we can have three designators, sobh, asr and shab. sobh is
 for 6:00 am to 11:59pm. asr for 12:00 am to 5:59pm, and shab for
 6:00pm to 5:59am.
 The time ranges are not exact, but they are close to what you hear if
 you want to set appointments in Iran.

Exactly.  In fact I have proposed this one:

00:00-00:59: Nimeh-shab
01:00-06:59: Bamdad
07:00-11:59: Sobh
12:00-12:59: Zohr
13:00-18:59: Asr
19:00-23:59: Shab

 - Jalali vs Iranian. I strongly prefer Jalali, as it refers to a
 spcific method of keeping dates regardless of the country it is used
 in. For example, if were still under Qajar rule or Pahlavi rule, then
 we would have either used Hijri-Qamari calendar or Shahanshai, still
 both would have been considered Iranian calendar. So, in a country
 which has recently changed its official calendar a few times, we
 better stick to a name that will be in place regardless of the
 government. I am under the impression that the current calendar is use
 is techincally Birashk's calendar. Birashk perfected the old Jalali
 Calendar (which had 33/128 year periods vs 33/128/2820 year periods of
 Birashk).

I'm still against Jalali, because as Roozbeh mentioned, the
Jalali calendar has been different in number of months.  To be
exact, we should call it Birashk, but since it's highly
unprobable that the Iranian calendar changes again, I say lets
stick with Iranian Calendar.

About Shahanshahi era, a good converter can assume years
2500-2600 are in this era (Hint Hamed).

 - Birashk's book. He had published a book on his work, if memory
 serves me, it was called 'taarikh-tatbighi-ye Iran'. He had a few
 examples of different date conversions, using a rather large table for
 lookups. That table could be used as a test vector for the date
 conversion utility. I once did my own derivations to derive his table,
 and except one entry, my code and his table conformed. I never figured
 the source of the discrepancy.

I just ordered the book.  Will let people know when I get my
hands to it.

 --
 ODC

 PS. I hope no one gets offended by my chouce of pseudonym.

Looks like we have found a great man.  Would you mind introducing
yourself and telling us more about your background?

Later,
--behdad
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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-17 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 P.S.: Although Hijri calendar (and definition of the prayer times) look
 very strange and primitive, there is a very good philosophical reason
 behind it which makes sense once you know it. Do you know the reason or
 want to know it?

Yeah, the reason is to synchronize sleeping time of all people,
so people like me do not wake up 4PM when all offices close!

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Re: Miscellaneous web issues

2004-05-17 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sun, 16 May 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

 2. When viewed on WinXP/Mozilla1.7a, the ZWNJ's completely throw off my
 mouseover javascript program. It can not find words with ZWNJ. And look
 what happens if you mouseover the Tajik eqivalent: it displays the Persian
 word ok but no ZWNJ. This problem not seen with IE. I left out all harakat
 just so it would work in Mozilla (and Macs) so I'm sorry to see this
 new problem.

I've observed a very similar bug that should be the same as what
you explain:  ZWNJ put by JavaScript in UTF-8 format in the page
is completely thrown away.  As a solution, if you replace all
ZWNJs with \u200C in your JavaScript source, it works.

[BTW, your Herat#1 and Herat#2 MP3 files seem silent to my
player.]

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Re: Miscellaneous web issues

2004-05-17 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sun, 16 May 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

 1. When viewed on WinXP/IE6, look what happens when you mouseover the
 Persian words at the end (i.e. left margin) of each line. You also pick up
 the space to the right of the first word in that line. Similarly, if you
 attempt to mouseover the first word in the line and are just a little off
 the word to the right, you unfortunately will pick up the last word in the
 line.  Is this a bug or just my usual crazy coding style? This problem not
 seen with Mozilla. Also not with left to right languages.

Remove all leading and trailing spaces in your spans and it
should work.  BTW, RTL paragraphs are a must.

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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-16 Thread Behdad Esfahbod

Iranian guys, would you please do a short statistical survey?


On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 On Sun, 15 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

   It is still Amordad; I was going to point it out here
   to discuss, as I did not find about it in the archives. -Omid
 
  The answer is really simple:  Have you ever seen Amordad
  printed *anywhere*?  That's like using Pahlavi instead of
  Modern Persian.

 In fact I myself use 'Mordad' ordinarily, because I'm simply used to it.
 But since I was drawn to this calendar thing I realized that the correct
 word is actually 'Amordad' whose initial ALEF is dropped over a
 not-so-long time, because of the simplicity to pronounce. The initial
 ALEF in Persian was used to negate a noun, thus Amordad which means 'the
 month of no-death' or 'the month of life' has now altered to Mordad
 meaning 'the month of death'. It was interesting for me when I found
 that many *printed* almanacs observe to use the original word and I had
 never noticed that. My mind always saw 'Amordad' and read 'Mordad'. So I
 was thinking why not have another exception in our literature such as
 the VAAV in words 'khaahesh' and 'khaahar' that is written but not read.
 Write 'Amordad' and read 'Mordad' to have the modern word while not
 corruptting the old good meaning.

 I don't have many calendars in hand here, but when I was in Iran I found
 many calendars that use 'Amordad' instead of 'Mordad'. I took a photo of
 the only Iranian calendar I have here for you too see an instance.

 Omid


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RE: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-16 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 On Sun, 15 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

  So we've reached a consensus on using Iranian Calendar for
  the term referring to the solar calendar in action in Tehran,
  right? So we forget about Jalali name, and call it Iranian
  Calendar, quite like Chinese, Japanese, and other countries.

 Iranian Calendar is okay IMHO, but I like the Persian Calendar
 better for the name of the calendar system, since it covers more
 countries. In Iran we use the Iranian subtype of the Persian calendar,
 and in Afghanistan the Jalali subtype is used. I don't know about
 Tajikistan.

 Fortunately in .NET it is possible to define subtypes for a calendar
 system provided that they use the same algorithm but differ in day
 names, month names, date patterns and so on.

But the Iranian and Afghan Calendars do not use the same
algorithm.  The Afghan algorithm is more or less the Gregorian
one...  Just keep in mind, the whole complexity of the Persian
Calendars is the leap-year calculation.  When Iran and
Afghanistan have two completely different leap-year calculation
algorithms, I see absolutely no point in merging them and then
sub-typing...


 Omid

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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-16 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hi Hooman,

Thanks for the question.  I go with Iranian Islamic Calendar.
I think Primary/Secondary and Solar/Lunar are both very bad
names.  And Islamic makes sense since that's what this calendar
is called in English, so ours is the *Iranian* Islamic Calendar.
And then Iranian Calendar and Iranian Islamic Calendar should
be clear enough that which one's primary and which secondary.


behdad

On Sun, 16 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 Hi Behdad,

 I have a question (targeting you and everybody else working on Persian
 locale projects such as .Net)

 The lunar Hijri calendar used in Iran is also an official calendar and
 is calculated independent from other Hijri calendars used in other
 islamic countries. It is an important calendar, since it determines
 half of the holidays on our calendar. We also know that it has slightly
 different month lengths than other Hijri calendars.

 Are you going to identify and support that calendar as well? Then what
 would you call it in English? The answer to this question may affect
 Iranian Calendar term as well.

 If you ask me, we can keep Iranian Calendar and call the Hijri
 calendar Iranian Secondary Calendar or Iranian Religious Calendar
 or something like that. I think we should avoid solar / lunar
 designations in the English name to make it more meaningful and less
 confusing for none-Iranians. With the same logic one may suggest using
 Iranian Primary Calendar instead of Iranian Calendar to emphasize
 the fact that more than one official regional calendar exists in Iran.

 My final verdict? I need to sleep on it for a while.

 Hooman Mehr

 On May 15, 2004, at 2:36 PM, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

  Hi,
 
  Just trying to close an item in the long open agenda of the list.
  So we've reached a consensus on using Iranian Calendar for the
  term referring to the solar calendar in action in Tehran, right?
  So we forget about Jalali name, and call it Iranian Calendar,
  quite like Chinese, Japanese, and other countries.
 
  As for the rules, we at FarsiWeb have found enough evidence that
  the 2820-year periodic calendar of Birashk.  We will later
  release the codes for that and replace our different ports.
 
  Please send your comments.
 
  Hamed, you are supposed to work on this, right?
 
  Thanks,
 
  --behdad
behdad.org
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RE: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-16 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sun, 16 May 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

 On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

  Iranian Calendar is okay IMHO, but I like the Persian Calendar
  better for the name of the calendar system, since it covers more
  countries. In Iran we use the Iranian subtype of the Persian calendar,
  and in Afghanistan the Jalali subtype is used. I don't know about
  Tajikistan.

 Omid, I still vote for Iranian Calendar because within that huge
 geographic expanse, there are various non-Persian speaking groups.
 Iranian is a little more broader term with a geographic sense as well.
 It is also used by linguists, for example to describe dialects spoken
 outside the borders of modern Iran to differentiate between the related
 Indian subset of Indo-Iranian.  Iranian is also not perfect, but as
 you say, you can subset your .NET categories.

Would you please tell me why Iranian is not perfect?

 I'm perhaps reacting to more of the fallout from this Farsi vs.
 Persian mess. One hears even more improvements/abuses of Persian in
 the English language, as in, for example:

 Daddy, look over there. There's some Persians speaking Farsi!

:

 -Connie

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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-16 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sat, 15 May 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Sat, 2004-05-15 at 14:36, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
  Just trying to close an item in the long open agenda of the list.
  So we've reached a consensus on using Iranian Calendar for the
  term referring to the solar calendar in action in Tehran, right?

 I don't know. I know that we can't reach consensus on other things, and
 I also know that consensus doesn't matter that much here. As people
 define consensus, it is like at least 75% of the talking part of the
 community. Here, most of the community don't talk at all, and I'm sure
 that if you take a poll, from those who vote some will still insist on
 Jalali, or Solar Islamic, or Hejri-e Khorshidi, or Persian. They
 will mention personal preference if you ask the reason. ;)

You are self-conflicting yourself.  I define consensus as 100%
vote of the talking community, and again I say we have reached a
consensus here.

 What we should look for, is clear and reasonable objection. There hasn't
 been any such objection for Iranian calendar.

  As for the rules, we at FarsiWeb have found enough evidence that
  the 2820-year periodic calendar of Birashk.

 I didn't get you. Would you please reword?

Oops, I close the sentence in the middle.  I just meant that
2820-Birashk is the best system to implement.

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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-16 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sat, 15 May 2004, Hamed Malek wrote:

 On Sat, 2004-05-15 at 14:36, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
  Hi,
 
  Just trying to close an item in the long open agenda of the list.
  So we've reached a consensus on using Iranian Calendar for the
  term referring to the solar calendar in action in Tehran, right?
  So we forget about Jalali name, and call it Iranian Calendar,
  quite like Chinese, Japanese, and other countries.
 
  As for the rules, we at FarsiWeb have found enough evidence that
  the 2820-year periodic calendar of Birashk.  We will later
  release the codes for that and replace our different ports.
 
  Please send your comments.
 
  Hamed, you are supposed to work on this, right?
 Yes. And I think except the original code, we can prepare GUI for it in
 some desktop environments like GNOME.

Sure, the following ports are expected.  I have put in
parantheses the status of the old Jalali code in every platform:

  * C (released on farsiweb.info)
  * PalmOS (released on farsiweb.info)
  * PocketPC (released on farsiweb.info)
  * Win32 (released on farsiweb.info)
  * PHP (released on farsiweb.info and iranphp.net)
  * Perl (in CPAN)
  * Java (I did, never released due to license problems)
  * ICU (Roozbeh should have something)
  * JavaScript (never released for no reason, but accessible from
my weblog source)
  * .NET (someone sent us, never released due to license problems)
  * GNOME (someone sent us, never released for no reason)
  * TeX (released in FarsiTeX)
  * LaTeX (Roozbeh should have)
  * libical (not done)

People, any other requests?

 Hamed

I will appreciate if you go on and do the ports too :-).

--behdad
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