Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-20 Thread C Bobroff

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

  we are *specifying* a single way to do
 things.

Why the 2 calendars then?
-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-17 Thread C Bobroff
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote:

 http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg
 
 Only one name comes with ye badal az kasre, which is a bit odd. It
 might be a typo in her name or in her ID.

Concerning the Hamze Above instead of Kasre, I was just wanting to show
that the -e  (ezaafe) is written as well as spoken.  The ezafe on words
ending with unpronounced Heh (as in Ma`sumeh) is marked  either as
Heh+Hamze Above or Heh+ZWNJ+Yeh and in words ending with pronounced Heh
(as in Roozbeh) is marked with Kasre. Again, in the case of personal
names, the ezaafe is sometimes pronounced and sometimes not pronounced.
This is also sometimes optionally reflected in the writing.

I was told to give examples of the ezaafe written in personal names. I
don't think that was supposed to be limited to only when ezaafe is marked
with kasre. I might have misunderstood your comment though!

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-17 Thread C Bobroff
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote:

 Sure. No argument about that. ye badal az kasre is used, as we all
 know, when the first word ends in aa, oo, unpronounced Heh, ...

Ok, I'm going to update my website with info on marking the ezaafe
one of these days. I'll submit it for flame-testing when done. Hang on for
that.

 BTW, talking about unpronounced Heh, recently I found out that in the
 first year of school, they don't call it like that any more. They call
 it e-ye aakher.

I believe in other languages (maybe Kazakh??) there is some Unicode debate
going on right now about this letter which can appear in the middle of a
word in those languages. This may be part of the ae problem. I'm not
sure.

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-14 Thread C Bobroff

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

  Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan
  a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though.

 Eagerly waiting for them.

As I said, I'm not even looking in books till this evening, however, even
though someone was recently saying Google can't handle harakat, I decided
to try my luck and the first name I tried, Shirin-e Ebadi gave me this:
http://www.kanoon-nevisandegan-iran.org/Shirin.htm
(look in the second line of text)

Another:
http://www.vajehmagazine.com/archive/no_2/dialog.asp
(line 15: Sohraab-e Sepehri)

There are zillions. How many examples will you guys be needing?

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-14 Thread C Bobroff

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 I don't see any zillions, hardly a handul of them for your two
 examples.  Compare with... errr..

I meant on the internet there are zillions. I chose only two which is now
two more than the total you admit to having seen in your entire
life.

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-14 Thread C Bobroff
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.

Do a google search for pashto perso-arabic to see that many authors
think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script.

Then do a google search for pashto arabic script and you'll see with
just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic
script or called *Perso-Arabic.*

If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply Arabic script.

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-14 Thread C Bobroff

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 Come on Connie, you're still to provide a real example, from the
 books or streets whatever.

The streets stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun
intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published
books:

http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg
http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg
http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-14 Thread C Bobroff

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 don't pronounce them, but I agree that there are times that we do
 and there should be some trick in there.  Still looking for the
 trick.

ok, please figure out when you do and when you don't say the exact same
name. That's what I'm after more than anything!

-Connie
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Re: OT: On computing, in Persian

2004-06-14 Thread C Bobroff

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 There is a chance that you are encountering a Tahoma's hinting bug that
 drops the bottom Noghte of Peh in certain sizes.

You were right. So there WAS another Yeh problem!
-Connie
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Re: khaat e Farsi

2004-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

As far as I know, more are returning
 to the Persian codes since standard software support is getting better.
My point was that they are using the Arabic counterparts of Persian
letters when that is not *technically* absolutely necessary right at this
moment.
So, on a happy note, one can say that religious/political motives have
taken a back seat in favor of ease of communication/web accessibility
issues.
-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
Hi Michael again after a long time,
You've unfortunately been CC'd in the middle of a conversation on *locale
requirements* not unicode level encoding.
You are correct and encouraged to put Persian in with Arabic for unicode
purposes.

At the level of the current conversation, however, modern standard Persian
is written in the *Perso-Arabic script.* Urdu is also written in the
Perso-Arabic
script. (Urdu is NOT written in the Perso-Arabic-Urdu script.) Arabic is
written in the Arabic script. Various North African
languages and dialects are written in a modified Arabic script.

Please don't consider the letter Beh. Think about the Yeh, the Keheh,
numbers 4,5,6, Heh+Hamzeh Above, ZWNJ, some punctuation, sorting.  I'm not
talking about calligraphic styles here.  It is ok to just say Arabic
script if you are simply differentiating it from Japanese and Latin. But
at the level of Locale specs, you need to be more precise so as to reflect
the additions and modifications of the original Arabic script from which
it was derived.

Since this locale information is being written in Persian, it can be
assumed that the Persian readers know the script they are reading the info
in has some additions and modifications. However, for an internatinal
audience,  (not the unicode level), it is necessary to make it clear that
modern Persian is not written in the same exact script as modern Arabic.
I don't think it is *too much* wishful thinking that non-Persian experts
will want / need to consult this document.

Again, you got dragged into something without context. That's why Im not
replying to you point-by-point.

-Connie

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Michael Everson wrote:

 At 15:43 +0430 2004-06-13, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
 I wish to restate my position. I'm CC-ing Michael Everson, a Unicode
 expert in script naming. Michael, would you please tell us if Connie is
 right here?
 
 On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:49, C Bobroff wrote:
 Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.
 
   No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in Perso-Arabic
   script.

 Not since the 19th century.

You can also say a modified form of the Arabic script but that
is what is meant by Perso-Arabic script. Just Arabic script only
applies to the Arabic language.

 This is not correct.

 What Ms Bobroff is doing is confusing character and glyph, I believe.
 It us true that the Arabic script has many variant styles, but this
 does not mean that those styles are or should be encoded as different
 characters. The ARABIC LETTER BEH which is used in Arabic, Persian,
 Urdu, Pashto, Sindhi, Kurdish, Kashmiri, Malay, Balochi, Uzbek,
 Kazakh, Uighur, etc. is the SAME intrinsic character in all of them.
 It has right-to-left directionality. It has a nominal, initial,
 medial, and final form which connects to other letters.

 Arabic script can be written or otherwise displayed in a number of
 styles, such as Kufi, Nastaliq, Naskh, and Maghrebi. But all
 varieties are ways of writing the same essential characters, and
 because of that, it is correct to speak of only one script.
 --
 Michael Everson * * Everson Typography *  * http://www.evertype.com

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft (fwd)

2004-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
(I'm forwarding this on behalf of someone with mailer problems.)

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:58:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Arash Zeini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Connie Bobroff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

In a message dated Sunday 13 June 2004 04:43, Michael Everson wrote:

     Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.
 
   No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in
  Perso-Arabic script.

 Not since the 19th century.

    You can also say a modified form of the Arabic script but that
    is what is meant by Perso-Arabic script. Just Arabic script
  only  applies to the Arabic language.

 This is not correct.

Hi Connie,

This is Arash Zeini. I have a problem with my SMTP server and hence can
not send email from my regular account. So I am not posting this to the
ML, but feel free to forward my comment below it to the list.

I have not been following the discussion very tightly, but I think that
Mr. Everson misunderstood the context of the discussion. I can confirm
that you are right. In linguistic circles Perso-Arabic script is used to
refer to the modified Arabic script used in Iran to write Farsi (Persian).

Greetings,
Arash




__
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/

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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Elnaz Sarbar wrote:

 They are hard because they have really never seen anyone puts Kasre in
 personal names. Neither do I. It is sometimes pronounced but almost
 never written.

OK, a sane person enters.

Since you have at least *heard* it, please see if you can find a pattern
as to WHEN it is said.  Really, the speech-to-text people may thank you.
For example, how is it that the same person, in the same speech will say,
Ahmad Shamlu mord. Then a few seconds later say, Ahmad-e Shamlu,
nevisandeh-ye borzorg...
What are the conditions involved? I suspect it follows strict natural laws
of linguistics, and of course influenced by mood and style.
I just want to know what they are!

-Connie
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Re: OT: On computing, in Persian

2004-06-13 Thread C Bobroff

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 used a really weird language that may be interesting for some members
 here.

Very weird indeed!
BTW, what's with this new usage of replacing Peh with Yeh. Do we not
have enough Yeh problems as it is?

http://www.sharghnewspaper.com/830323/idea.htm#s68703


-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-13 Thread C Bobroff

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 You would say Omar Khayyam and also say Hafez-e Shirazi.

Hehe. I've recently seen Omar-e Khayyam in the middle of some text (not on
the decorative front cover) written with Kasre. Too bad I forgot where it
was...
-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 Rule 1: The following rules only apply when first name is followed by last name
Most scientific.

 Rule 2: Do not add ksare ezafe at the end of names foreign origin,
 even if they come from a Persian speaking country, e.g. Ahmad Shah
 Masoud.
Evidence from the streets does not support you.

 Rule 3: Do not add kasre ezaafe at the end of first names ending with
 vowels, e.g., Ali, Minoo, Saba, Reza, Kaveh. However, adding a YEH +
 KASRE is sometimes done only for dramatic effects. For example,
 pronounce Ali Heydari as written, but it is acceptable (but not
 customary) to pronounce as Ali Ye Heydari.

Yeh+kasre is ok in non-dramatic situations, too.
You're definitely correct about the Alif-ending first names.

 Rule 4: Do pronounce a weak, almost unnoticeable kasre ezafe at the
 end of first names ending with a consonant.
Ezafeh in general (not just in names) is not allowed to be stressed ever.
This is one of the properties of the Ezafeh.

Nice of you to work on the problem, Ordak. It seems the same people who
saved a lot of money not making a Persian font also saved even more money
by not making a complete documented linguistic description of Persian nor
any [good quality] textbooks and [complete] grammars. Great that so much
money was saved!

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-12 Thread C Bobroff
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

  Many
 other things may also be optional (like how to write ordibehesht,
 zi-hajje, or hejdah), but we are only allowing one,

There is no comparison between these and the personal name topic.
You are giving incomplete and wrong information.
And you have every right to do so too so don't let me stop you. However,
now that I've pointed it out, I know that even though I'm not going
to say another word on this topic, you'll fix it. How do I know? I've come
to know your ways very well after so many years. You'll see.

  all the time. Sorry!

 Then you need to define all the time. I don't see a Kasra in the
 author's name on this book that is sitting on my desk.

Well, all the time does not, in fact, mean all the time in English.
It just means all the time. You know, a synonym for sometimes!
Why do you have to always be so hard on the poor molla from Qazvin?

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-12 Thread C Bobroff
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

  Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?

 Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.

No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in Perso-Arabic
script. You can also say a modified form of the Arabic script but that
is what is meant by Perso-Arabic script. Just Arabic script only
applies to the Arabic language.  Your Persian-knowing readers of the draft
will know what you mean if you just say khatt-e `arabi however, I
recommend you put Perso-Arabic script (in English)  or modified Arabic
script  so that if the draft gets translated into some other language,
the people less familiar with Persian will understand and that will make
its way back into the translation.

-Connie
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Re: khaat e Farsi

2004-06-11 Thread C Bobroff
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 I am confused! [snip]

Gang, I'm afraid this conversation is like a boat which has come loose
from its moorings and is now lost on the high seas straying where the four
winds will take it.

I believe Roozbeh, while typing the document was attempting to translate
Perso-Arabic script into Persian. Not an easy job.  I recommend for the
final draft, you say khatt-e 'arabi and then in parentheses or footnote,
just put the English (Perso-Arabic script). I don't think that for the
purposes of this draft you need to get into the history of the
calligraphic styles and orthographic conventions.

-Connie

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Re: khatt e Farsi -- was khaat e Farsi

2004-06-11 Thread C Bobroff
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:

  The first time we
 tried to approach High Council of Informatics showraaye aaliye
 anformaatik to discuss a Unicode proposal, they were against using
 Unicode, just because the letters were named Arabic letter  They
 were of course mistaken, and it took a long time and effort to achieve
 their support.

Really? Amazing story. Thank you for the bit of history.

Well, if it is too unpalatable to say khatt-e 'arabi, then just say
Perso-Arabic script in English or don't say it at all. I don't think
there is too much danger of people thinking we're speaking of Cuneiform
(khatt-e mikhi) which is what in other contexts may spring to mind if you
say khatt-e farsi.  By all means, get the draft written so that the
technical problems may be solved!

I think Behdad is sitting somewhere right now wondering if he should add
this topic to the Persian vs.  Farsi war!

-Connie

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-10 Thread C Bobroff
I just got this calendar from Iran in the mail:

http://students.washington.edu/irina/cal.jpg

I guess this  orientation is more popular than I thought. I find
it too hard to use since I'm used to the more common arrangement (i.e.
across the top and then top to bottom) but obviously people do like and
prefer this other way.

Good thing you included both in the draft!

-Connie

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-09 Thread C Bobroff
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 08:42, C Bobroff wrote:
  No kidding, you really typed all those Hamzeh's all by yourself??

 Yes. Why are you wondering?
Never mind! I don't want to appear as if complaining!

  And my next
  question is going to be, when?

 I'm not sure. It really depends on the mood or the speed of speaking.

Ok, I think that's as precise as we're going to get for now. I admit, I
hear it more in slow, deliberate, formal speeches than in everyday
conversation. (Besides Behdad's example of usage in response to which?)
And it's definitely seen in written form, especially on book covers.
I think I better scan one to keep on hand!


  That should keep you busy for a while!
 You were wrong. ;)
Yes, I guess so!
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PDF

2004-06-08 Thread C Bobroff
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 Correction: Found the Reader!
You certainly did! I'm glad I asked.

 Go to: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
 Select: English (Middle Eastern)
 Select your platform (It is available for Windows and Mac OS X) and the
 rest is as it should be.

It forced me to first remove my more recent non-Middle Eastern version but
I don't mind, it's worth it!

 Connie, try it with the PDFs that you have to see which one works.

It works great on this one, for example:
http://persianacademy.ir/books/Dastoor-e%20khatt.pdf

The text can be copied and pasted into Notepad with no directional
problems.

However, it still does not work on many such as:
http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf

What ends up in Notepad as only garbage.

Obviously, it matters what software was used to create the PDF and I can't
tell from the properties info  what the Persian Academy used.


 Also
 can you come up with a cleaner version of this conversation an put it
 on your pages?

OK!

-Connie

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-08 Thread C Bobroff
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:

 We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents;
There is a big difference between *we never write* and
*we sometimes write*. Obviously, you DO mark the ezafeh in
certain situations.
In this case, if the draft says says that one may not
mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either
that's a new rule or the draft is wrong. I see that written, especially
for authors on book titles all time.

-Connie
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Re: Kasre Ezafe in proper names, Was Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran

2004-06-08 Thread C Bobroff

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 Ok, as I said in another mail, you say behdaad-e esfahbod when
 you want to differentiate from behdaad-e pournader.  Just that.

Akh! banging head on computer Good night, I'm going homeMaybe a sane
person who knows the -e is used all the time in names will reply during
the night.

-Connie
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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-07 Thread C Bobroff
 On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 08:20, C Bobroff wrote:
  I just thought the typist had used MS Word, then exported to Excel and
  then to some publishing program.

 I'm sure both MS Word and MS Excel would crash under the weight of so
 much text.


Who said they didn't break it up into smaller files?

-Connie
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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-07 Thread C Bobroff
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 Who is to decide about what is bad? Are we professional linguists or
 dictionary writers?

We can we directed by others to edit. I'm just saying the online
version has this potential, unlike the printed version.

-Connie
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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-07 Thread C Bobroff

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 And managed all the numbering and sorting and all that by hand?
They would have done that BEFORE exporting to their publishing software.

Now, do you have any more questions before [hopefully] heading off to bed?

-Connie
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Re: [History] My Story, part 1 (1236 words)

2004-06-07 Thread C Bobroff
Thank you, Hooman. [BTW, some of you may want to note the spelling of
Hooman] Part 1 was great!  I especially appreciated the Pre-history
section in Tabriz.  As you know the Iranian Autobiography as a genre is
very rare so what you're giving us is a real treat. I know it's difficult
to expose yourself like this, but I can only encourage you to keep
providing the whole story and not hold back any details.  In fact, I may
have to keep a copy for my virtual Persian Computing Museum. (I just
received my first printed Arabic Yeh exhibit this morning as a matter of
fact.) In a few years, kiddies will sit down to type Persian and not
realize how lucky they are.  I've also all along been noting the painful
story of those who brought printing and the press to Iran in their day.
Please do continue the story as you have time and inclination. And thank
you for getting after the other old-timers as well. I've been trying to
tell them how important it is to document every detail for years!  This is
truly one of THE MOST IMPORTANT threads on this list. Thank you again and
again for sharing your story!
-Connie

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 Hi everybody, especially Connie,

 First of all, apologies for not being around for a while. I was kind of
 busy with miscellaneous obligations...

 I promised Connie to write something about the history of my
 involvement with Persian computing. This is the first part in a series
 of posts. It acts as an introduction to establish the context and
 background. As such, it is not fully about Persian computing per se.

 OK, here begins my story as a life in the history of Persian computing:

 1. Pre-history

 In the early eighties, during my high school days in Tabriz, I was
 obsessed with thinking about the meaning of life and my mission in
 life, playing with cats, studying geometry and modern physics
 (Einstein, Heisenberg, etc.), shooting with my air rifle, throwing
 knives at any wooden target, touring the city on my bicycle, building
 shelves and cabinets for the family and friends, building and tweaking
 hand-made Hi-Fi for my sister, building small steam engines with my
 cousin, trying to build gunpowder-propelled model rockets with my best
 friend, and other weird stuff. Those days I was totally unaware of
 girls, my appearance and my (lack of) social behavior. Back then, I
 barely knew computers existed, they where completely absent from my
 world.This period of my life coincides with the period of war,
 full-scale embargo, terrorist attacks, and the government treating
 anybody who wasn't an insider like the enemy.

 I barely thought about what career I would like to pursue, but was
 inclined to become a mechanical engineer. Then I graduated high school
 in 1984 and immediately took the university entrance exam and landed in
 Sharif University of Technology as a student of civil engineering. It
 was quite a surprise and disappointment for me. I disliked civil
 engineering, but I did a foolish thing and put it as my first choice
 because of the pressure from teachers, friends and family. I was quite
 confident that I wouldnt be accepted in Sharif University. I was
 really surprised when I learned that I had the 14th grade for the
 position. I expected the others to do far better than me.

 So, when I arrived at my dorm room, I wasn't very enthusiastic. What I
 found there didn't help either. I found a stinky mess in the room with
 three depressed guys who were hit by the Cultural Revolution and
 closing of the universities for almost two years, not to mention mostly
 arbitrary changes to the course syllabus and the fact that the room was
 designed for two students not four. I was dragging my foot when it came
 to studying civil engineering and was in the verge of dropping out of
 school and going to the war front when I discovered the joy of
 programming and computers.

 It was the second semester and we had a basic programming course on
 FORTRAN 66. We were punching cards and putting our deck of cards in the
 queue to be batch processed by Control Data CDC-6000 mainframe
 remaining from the seventies. We would get the printout of the program
 source and its output a few hours later. All of my programs ran
 correctly in the first try and my teacher kept all of my projects as
 outstanding examples of good solutions and stylish programming. He kept
 asking me whether I had prior experience with computers and refused to
 believe that I didn't.

 After that course, my life was changed forever. I started spending most
 of my time in the computer science department, computer lab, and its
 library. I continued the rest of my days in the university barely
 passing my courses in civil engineering and focusing my energy on
 programming and computer science instead. For those who don't know: I
 didn't have the choice of changing my study, because of the very
 limited capacities and the sheer resistance of the authorities thinking
 they are saving me from ruining my 

RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-06 Thread C Bobroff

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 MS Word?!! You really believe a professional publisher can prepare
 Persian print quality books in MS Word?!
I just thought the typist had used MS Word, then exported to Excel and
then to some publishing program. That was in response to Behdad
mentioning typing. I didn't think there would be any typing involved.
Don't know about Zarnegar.

-Connie

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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-06 Thread C Bobroff
On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 new parts are not comparable in quality to Moin's work, with wrong
 etymologies, bad definitions, etc.

That would be a problem. However, the bad entries can be edited out as
they are discovered.

 I don't agree. I believe the publisher has long time commercial interest
 in this (and won't be able to understand that this will actually help
 his sales, too).

I wonder!

 full, but that thing is clearly called ghash-gir if someone knows the
 device and its name.
Thank you for clearing that up!

 No one cares for that, in a dictionary. A good dictionary should have
 all the Academy-approved words, but it should list all the words in
 usage, approved by the slow Academy or not.

They can also be added as they get approved.

-Connie
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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-05 Thread C Bobroff

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

 I volunteer to implement a web interface for the dictionary,
Excellent!
You'll have to make it so that whether the user types in bi[ZWNJ]kaar,
bikaar, or bi kaar, the word will be found!

  but I think we'll need other
 people's help as well, because I would guess the whole data would be *huge*.
Will this require separate dedicated server(s)?
(I'm thinking about Behdad and the Persian Digital Library here...)

-Connie
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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-05 Thread C Bobroff
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 There are many claims that this doesn't add anything to the Mo'in
 Persian dictionary,
How is that possible when it's physically twice as big?
And now Pedram informs us it has a different approach, namely
*definitions* rather than *synonyms*.

 and is a real waste of paper and shelf space.
Waste is what's in our favor here! Sokhan stands to lose no money if
they just hand over the data and all rights.  It will be good publicity
for them!

 I've
 heard oral critiques by Dr Masoumi-Hamedani (head of the Persian
 Academy's Language and Computer group) and Mr Pourmomtaz (a linguist,
 and the head of tarh-e jaame'-e kaarbari-e zabaan-e faarsi). I'm not
 into the game of ethymology etc, but can ask the people who claimed such
 for more details, if you insist.

I'm sure it has a million defects. For example, I found one word
ghash-gir meaning book-end and tried to use that on my Iranian friends
but they'd never heard of it. (I'm not sure if the word was incorrect or
you don't have book-ends in Iran! You know, the support you put at the end
of your shelf to keep your books from toppling over...) I don't know if
all the modern words have been approved by the Academy. Even so, it's
wonderful!


 This was funded by a private publisher, as far as I know.
No publisher could have afforded that without subsidy.
In any case, they'd better do something with it soon, whether sell to
someone who can afford it or give to us for free.  Dictionaries get
superceded rapidly so they'd better hurry!

-Connie
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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-03 Thread C Bobroff
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Pedram Safari wrote:

 I do not know about pronunciation, but the dictionary at
 http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/dictionary/
 (which was discussed above) is transliteration-based (using the so-called
 mikhi alphabet, available on the right side of the page), if that is
 what you want. It is platform-independent, as well as use-to-use
 (clickable).

Pedram,

Thanks but it's not what I need.

First of all, I've actually been a *user* of this dictionary especially a
few years ago when it was one of the ONLY online Persian dictionaries and
I don't remember it ever being down or not working!  I even had to write a
report for some governmental agency on the state of online Persian
materials in which I explained that on one hand this sort of dictionary is
really only for Persian speakers wanting to learn English. Think of it: no
vowels (harakat), no tashdid's. Is it not absurd that a dictionary should
have half the letters missing?!  On the other hand, due to the lack of
textbooks with proper lists of vocabulary, the poor beginning students of
Persian are forced to waste their time flipping through paper dictionaries
which leads to fatigue and they don't have any energy left to actually
*learn* the words. Therefore, I concluded this dictionary is much better
than nothing at all.  My professor even asked me to find out exactly which
dictionary it was and that's how I came to know it was the Aryanpour
Concise English-Persian dictionary and had that answer at the ready when
Behdad asked the other day!

Now,I wonder if some of you who are so experienced technically could do
another dictionary project? At least as far as getting the data up in a
legal way and then others could make the interface according to the needs
of the target audience and connect with English and other languages.
For example, I  think this very nice dictionary is a complete waste as it
is available only in printed form in unmanageable 8 volumes:
AUTHOR   Anvari, Hasan
 TITLEFarhang-e bozorg-e Sokhan / beh sarparasti-e Hasan Anvari
 PUBL INFOTehran : Sokhan, 1381 [2002]
ISBN 9646961983 (set)

It is in very clear typesetting, has latin transliteration, many idioms
(estellah), examples of how to use in sentences, new words, dialect
variations, etc.

I'm sure this dictionary must have been funded by the Iranian government
and no profits expected. I'm shocked to see that less than a dozen US
universities have purchased it. I should think the author and publisher
would be very happy to see it put online and all the efforts go to some
use.  Surely they will agree if their name is kept with the data!  As for
the technical part, I no longer have any doubts as to the abilities of the
members of this group, especially after hearing the keyboard hack job for
the sake of the ZWNJ earlier today!

Thoughts?

-Connie
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Re: Misinformation!

2004-06-03 Thread C Bobroff

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 I recently came across this article
 http://www.khabgard.com/?id=844986758 which is endorsed by some other
 weblog authors. The author encourages using adifferent Yeh characters
 for middle and end placements.

Oh my!
I think someone was listening to the discussion on this list back in Nov
2003 with subject, What the hell is this Yeh and Keheh problem? and
took all that as a nice How to and increased the problem!
-Connie
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Re: Macs. Was Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 12, Issue 34

2004-06-02 Thread C Bobroff
Thank you, Eva. I have wasted no time adding your additional tips to my
Persian Mac info page in English:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/mac.html
I did edit out the Dear fiends part although I'm afraid your
subconscious has discovered the true nature of the folks here :)

Hope you inspire others to also send in more tips to help the friends
and fiends alike!

Also I just heard from Ali Samadi that the Iranian Mac User group (in
Persian) is actually at:
http://www.irmug.org
(I think I had a mistake earlier.)

-Connie

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Eva Braiman wrote:

 Dear fiends,

 Thanks so much for the posting on Mac Persian word processing for the
 mac. I have had great success using all the tips I have gotten from
 this list.

 For example, I was able to salvage a Farsi manuscript with the
 following steps:

 1. Take a DOC file created on an old Windows 98 (Arabic) machine
 running Parsa 99 and Zarnigar 97, copy it to the Mac (OSX 10.3.4)
 2. Open the DOC file in Word (where the characters turn to gibberish)
 and save the file as an RTF
 3. Using Mellel, with Persian ISRI keyboard and B Yagut font, import
 the RTF file and it looks nearly (a few yeh and alignment problems, but
 no big deal) perfect!

 Yay!

 Eva Braiman
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Re: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-02 Thread C Bobroff
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 their dictionary available for download is infringing copyright
 of the Aryanpours

What I understood from that discussion was that a lot of online
dictionaries are using Aryanpour data with no mention of the name
Aryanpour. Others mention Aryanpour but no sign that the Aryanpour estate
is getting any royalties or even that permission was asked or granted to
use their data. Then I even noticed this one:
http://www.aryanpour.com
where I'm not even sure any Aryanpour data was used!

Since the Aryanpour family was in the dictionary business before anyone
could foresee the computer age and with Iranian copyright laws being what
they are, I'm not sure even that legally speaking, these people are
breaking any laws. This data falls into a grey zone.

Now, morally speaking, I must say in principle, it is horrible to take
someone else's labor without permission, especially when the Aryanpour
family is still around and still making dictionaries.  I would like to
know if they care or are they so big and famous that this is of no
concern? Or maybe they are wringing their hands in despair that no one
cares and then they'll thank you, Behdad!  Why doesn't someone go knock on
their door and ask for an official statement! I am sure curious to know!

I don't think the Iranian Mac Users Group is any more or less guilty than
all the others using the Aryanpour data and unless the Aryanpour family or
their lawyers issue a directive, I can't do anything but urge people to
say where they got the data and also join in this and other discussions
because we are now entering the age of the database when all kinds of
things are going to go online and I'm sure everyone would like to feel
good about what they're doing. I think it's a good thing that nowadays
there are EULA's, etc where the owner can explicitly say what may or may
not be done with the property.

By the way, does anyone know of a Persian online dictionary which gives
any sort of pronunciation or transliteration info in Latin script? I mean
besides the Steingass and besides this one:
http://iranianlanguages.com/dictionary.php?eng-per which is obviously
being developed with much care and attention to quality but still seems to
not have a very large word base.

-Connie
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Re: Mac info for Persian

2004-05-25 Thread C Bobroff
Thanks to three Mac users on this list, I was able to collect some basic
info on Persian Mac computing here:

http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/mac.html

I hope this will fill an information gap for the users as well as provide
a place in English for the Apple people to see that they do have a few
Persian customers who are suffering from neglect. More feedback is
encouraged and I'll update as needed.

I also took the opportunity to throw in a gratuitous, not-so-nice
provocation which is aimed not only to excuse the Mac browsers for their
shortcomings but also to encourage someone here to make a perfect, model
testpage for Persian browsing. Since [most] webmasters want their site to
actually work on all computers, we have no testpage. This is what I said:

It is important to keep in mind that there are almost no real Persian
websites one can use as a test for the browser.  That is because most
webmasters have dumbed down their site to make it work on Win9x and also
to compensate for buggy fonts and general lack of complete Persian fonts.
Therefore one rarely finds ZWNJ, Hamza above Heh, Persian numbers, small
vowels, Persian Yeh, Persian Kaf, etc.

-Connie



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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

2004-05-21 Thread C Bobroff
Well, I thought I was done with the Weft demo page,
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/weft.htm and could now
catch up on my non-computing activities. Picked up reading Jamalzadeh's
Dar al-Majanin where I'd left off months ago. What did I run into after
just 2 pages? I looked at the sky. It had become an expansive garden
(i.e., the same Hafez that was the content of the WEFT demo) LOL, this is
some sort of conspiracy! Anyhow, I had to then return to the webpage and
add Jamalzadeh's edition.  This gave me the chance to add another FarsiWeb
font, Roya. Also took the opportunity to throw in a couple Heh+Hamza Above
(U+0654) demo's. The positioning is not altogether bad. Of course, not
like U+06C0 but still, not bad. The harakat (short vowels, fatha, kasra,
dumma, etc) are positioning a bit too distant from the mother ship but I
threw a few in for good measure. Of course, these positioning issues will
depend on the OS and browser as well as the font.

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

2004-05-20 Thread C Bobroff
On Thu, 20 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 I'll write some crime stories. But don't expect anything this week, I
 am very busy.

OK! But if we are to properly judge your confession of past crimes, be
sure to not leave out any details and please start from the beginning. You
know, the glaciers were receding, the dinosaurs suddenly vanished,
then...?

Just deliver in small morsels as time permits!
-Connie
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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

2004-05-20 Thread C Bobroff
On Thu, 20 May 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

   BTW, why the
 Shift-Space combination does not work?
Because the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator
http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx
thought the space bar is reserved for only spacing characters.
Roozbeh said he sent MS a list of such bugs. Until they fix that,
shift-b is not bad for ZWNJ.

-Connie
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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

2004-05-19 Thread C Bobroff
On Wed, 19 May 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

 Interesting.  Sorry for my ignorance, but is that keyboard available
 publicly?

You can re-live its creation here in the archives:
http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/persiancomputing/2003-June/000538.html

And you can download it here:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/farsitools/persiankeyboard.zip?download

A PDF file with the layout is here:
http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/persiancomputing/attachments/20030612/2e85a1ad/PersianKL_preview.pdf

I've also repeated the above here if you don't like ZIP files or have some
other problem.
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/kb.htm

Roozbeh, is it not time to remove the experimental from its name?

 Why not?  The \u syntax allows you to represent Unicode characters in
 JavaScript.
Now I know.

 Well, on Mozilla1.2.1 that I tested it on, if you replaces ZWNJ in the
 description of the Tajik array indices with #8204; then it seems to work
 happily.  Try giving it a test.

Done! Beautiful!
I hope the Mozilla users appreciate all this trouble.

Thanks again for all your help!

-Connie

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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

2004-05-19 Thread C Bobroff
On Wed, 19 May 2004, Behnam wrote:

 The Unicode character is U-2011, Non-Breaking Hyphen. If you don't have
 it on your keyboard, you may be able to use this information to type it
 with other tools or utilities.

As Ordak D. Coward reports, Ctrl-Shift-Hyphen instead of hyphen does
the trick in Word.  (I checked.)  I never thought  of using Help. What a
novel idea!
U+2011 should definitely be part of the custom Perso-Arabic
transliteration keyboards. (Hint to Peter)

 Or you can drop the Al- altogether. If I remember correctly, his
 street name in Iran was Biruni short and simple!

Yes, you have to keep the audience in mind and pick from Abu Rayhan,
Biruni, al-Biruni. Worse with (al-)Ghaz(z)ali.

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

2004-05-19 Thread C Bobroff
Dear Hooman,

 I may move these stories to my pending
 weblog which hopefully will open in the next several days.

Why should you move to your weblog?  I can't think of a better
place for the story of Persian computing than PersianComputing.

 One more thing, the reason that I may seem talented for story telling
 is that I am an INFP (http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP.html), so
 be-warned.
Glad to know just what we're up against here!

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

2004-05-19 Thread C Bobroff

On Wed, 19 May 2004, Behnam wrote:

 I don't see its use in Perso-Arabic script.
I meant both Latin input and output here.

The punishment for misunderstanding the question is that you have to
answer some Mac questions! (New form of flaming, hope you like it!) I'm
getting 1 or 2 Mac users per week asking for info on how to type Persian
and I just am not sure what the state of the technology is so can you
please give the definitive guide? (And anyone else who can please
contribute, also, so there is one place with the basic info.)
See my next post.
Thanks in advance!
-Connie

 On 19-May-04, at 5:38 PM, C Bobroff wrote:

  U+2011 should definitely be part of the custom Perso-Arabic
  transliteration keyboards. (Hint to Peter)

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Mac info for Persian

2004-05-19 Thread C Bobroff
Hello Mac expert(s),

Below are some Persian Mac questions. Any answers you can supply would
be greatly appreciated. You can also add your own questions or re-word!
Thank you!

WORD-PROCESSING

1. Is it possible to type complete and correct Persian including ZWNJ and
punctuation in a text editor/word processor that comes with the Mac
itself? If yes, on which versions of Mac?

2. What is the font situation like? Additional fonts available online? For
purchase? Free?

3. Is the default keyboard ok? Can you customize it? Is there also a
phonetic input option?

4. What, why and where are Nisus Writer and Melal (and others)? Can they
be used as/instead of  an upgrade with older versions of Macs that don't
do Persian text correctly? (Links to these products?)

5. Are there Mac support groups? Is there a way to contact Apple Persian
support for feedback on Word-processing issues? Other helpful links?

WEB VIEWING

1. Is it possible to see Persian websites correctly? Even harakat,
punctuation, ZWNJ? On which Mac/Browser(s)?

2. Is the default font ok? Easy to specify your own if not?

3. Support groups? Apple support? Other useful links?



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Re: Mac info for Persian

2004-05-19 Thread C Bobroff
On Wed, 19 May 2004, Behnam wrote:

 That's alright. I don't like to make a fool of myself if it's not in
 public!
I feel the same way!

  answer to your specific
 questions, I'll send them later.
Thank you for your blurb. But you sound very pessimistic when the
screenshot you sent me (privately) of the Tajik page was in fact, quite
nice.
There is no hurry on the specific questions. Whenever you feel like it, if
ever...
-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-18 Thread C Bobroff

On Tue, 18 May 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 - Birashk's book. He had published a book on his work, if memory
 serves me, it was called 'taarikh-tatbighi-ye Iran'.

Looks like the English version of this book is on sale if you're
interested:
http://www.mazdapublishers.com/Comparative-Calendar.htm

-Connie
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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-18 Thread C Bobroff

On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 But since I was drawn to this calendar thing I realized that the correct
 word is actually 'Amordad'

Recommend you avoid correcting anything. Once you make a decision to
correct one thing, you'll end up having to correct more and more and
then it will get out of control. If you have an option for variants, fine
but the one in the main entry should be the default, standard word in use
right now at the time you are collecting data. Your job is to DEscribe,
not PREscribe.
-Connie
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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

2004-05-18 Thread C Bobroff
It appears taking a break is the best cure. Some progress:

On Tue, 18 May 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

  Why it doesn't work in Notepad?

You're right. It DOES work in Notepad and it had worked the very first
time I'd try to replace ZWNJ with \u200c. The reason I didn't know it had
been a success is really anti-climactic: Although I'd cleared my cache on
IE, I had not checked the little optional box for Delete all offline
files. Only because some others have been emailing feedback concerning
the content did I realize that the page was operational on other
computers. The old .js file must fall into the offline file category
because that did the trick. Also, although my eyes were telling me it had
worked, I'd assumed the Find/Replace process had deposited some invisible
junk characters screwing up the direction. An imagined problem!

Note that
 on Windows XP, you can't type ZWNJ inside the Find/Replace dialog box - you
 need to copy/paste it from inside the Notepad text editor window.  Another
 reason why not to use Notepad.

Find/Replace  [the invisible] ZWNJ in Notepad is no problem becuase
I have the Persian Experimental Keyboard and ZWNJ is
right on Shift-b. Although I can't actually SEE that I've typed ZWNJ
in the Find box, it really is there. So now in my .js array, I have a few
Persian words with \u200c right in the middle of the Persian script.
It doesn't seem like the browsers should be able to handle that but
now I see it's not a problem. Only thing I have to remember is to re-open
the Notepad file in a non-WYSIWYG editor and delete that BOM creature.

Mozilla is now able to find my words containing ZWNJ which
was the whole point of this exercise.

One small problem still remains: in Mozilla, if you click on any Tajik
word, it shows you the Persian counterpart in the popup.
But Mozilla is not able to display the ZWNJ so that is ignored.
I'm not sure what to do to solve this.

 BTW, FrontPage 2003 can open the .js file (using File | Open, or drag and
 drop) and render the UTF-8 characters without converting them to numeric
 entities just fine.

ok. That's definitely a 2003 improvement.

 In the JS code, try to replace the trailing ZWNJ-raa and ZWNJ-o with nothing
 using a regex.
I'll look into this possibility.


 HTH,
Most definitely. Thanks!
-Connie

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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

2004-05-18 Thread C Bobroff
On Tue, 18 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 On a second thought, I got reluctant
 to discuss this matter on the list. It would be way off topic.
 Moreover, I am afraid that whatever I say could be interpreted as
 political statement  or religious evangelism and start flamewars.

Looks like Fortune smiled upon you and you managed to post without
getting flamed.
So, with this newly acquired confidence and since you have some talent in
story-telling, are you going to please tell us about your past crimes
soon?  Nimrooz, etc? I mean, from the beginning and please don't skimp on
the details. I think I'm not the only one who would love to hear it!

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

2004-05-18 Thread C Bobroff
Actually, all this off-topic mix of calendars and philosophy
has reminded me that when I was writing something (in English) a few
months ago on Al-Biruni, whenever his name came up at the end of the line
in Word, it would wrap and so the Al- would be on one line and the
Biruni would go down to the next.  This seemed not very respectful to
break up a great man's name like that! Is there any way to type a hyphen
that will resist break-up during wrapping?

-Connie

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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-17 Thread C Bobroff

On Mon, 17 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 P.S.: Although Hijri calendar (and definition of the prayer times) look
 very strange and primitive, there is a very good philosophical reason
 behind it which makes sense once you know it. Do you know the reason or
 want to know it?

Please continue. We are listening. You have a very nice narrative style!
-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-17 Thread C Bobroff

On Mon, 17 May 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:

 Shaahanshaahi calendar was introduced in 1355 and abolished in 1357.
 It was simply a map:
 Add 1180 to Iranian calendar.

But is that the official name? I might have just made that up.
Abbreviations??

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-17 Thread C Bobroff
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 Of course, it is possible to find the exact date, for example by looking
 at the archive of Ettela'at or Kayhan newspapers, and see when the
 date in their title changes. Unfortunately, I don't have access to them
 at the moment, maybe later.

ok, the info is online at Encyclopaedia Iranica:
http://www.iranica.com/articlenavigation/index.html
search under calendars--Islamic period
page 672
(you can't seem to go there directly as they have a pdf file for each
page)

Here's the relevant part:

On 24 Esfand 1354 Sh. / 14 March 1975 the
Majles approved a new era based on the supposed year of accession of the
first Achaemenid king, Cyrus the Great (559 B.C.); thus, 21 March 1976
became the first day (Nowruz) of the year 2535 in the Shaahanshaahi era.
The month names of the Persian solar Hejri calendar were retained wihout
change.  Official documents and publications were dated according to the
new calendar.  This caused much confusion and created widespread
discontent, particularly among the clergy.   Eventually, on 5 Shahrivar
1357 Sh./27 August 1978, the government, in the face of the coming
revolution, reverted to the solar Hejri calendar.  This calendar is
reckoned from 1 Farvardin, 119 days before 1 Moharram of the Arabian lunar
year in which the hejra took place.  The Julian date corresonding to the
first day of the solar Hejri era is 19 March 622.  Taqizadeh gives 17
March 622 (1937-39, p. 916), which was apparently the date arrived at by
the Persian commission for calendar reform in 1304 Sh./1925.


Wow, 3 whole years it lasted! However, must have been a productive 3 years
as I do come across publications with the Shahanshahi date now and then.
I still think it's worth mention in your documentation.
Looks like it was abbreviated with Shin.
-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-16 Thread C Bobroff

On Sun, 16 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 The lunar Hijri calendar used in Iran is also an official calendar and
 is calculated independent from other Hijri calendars used in other
 islamic countries. It is an important calendar, since it determines
 half of the holidays on our calendar. We also know that it has slightly
 different month lengths than other Hijri calendars.

Are there any online or downloadable calendars or converters for the
lunar Hijri system used in Iran? I'm only hearing about this different
month lenghts business today...

-Connie
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RE: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-16 Thread C Bobroff
On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 Iranian Calendar is okay IMHO, but I like the Persian Calendar
 better for the name of the calendar system, since it covers more
 countries. In Iran we use the Iranian subtype of the Persian calendar,
 and in Afghanistan the Jalali subtype is used. I don't know about
 Tajikistan.

Omid, I still vote for Iranian Calendar because within that huge
geographic expanse, there are various non-Persian speaking groups.
Iranian is a little more broader term with a geographic sense as well.
It is also used by linguists, for example to describe dialects spoken
outside the borders of modern Iran to differentiate between the related
Indian subset of Indo-Iranian.  Iranian is also not perfect, but as
you say, you can subset your .NET categories.

I'm perhaps reacting to more of the fallout from this Farsi vs.
Persian mess. One hears even more improvements/abuses of Persian in
the English language, as in, for example:

Daddy, look over there. There's some Persians speaking Farsi!

-Connie
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RE: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-16 Thread C Bobroff
On Sun, 16 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 Would you please tell me why Iranian is not perfect?
Because it's hard to please everyone at all times. Maybe some Baluchi
tribesman won't appreciate being lumped with Iranian. Maybe someone from
Afghanistan, not having heard this discussion and how hard it is to
find a name will say, Oh, so those guys at Sharif think we are now a
subset of Iran, eh? (I think that's why Omid was going with Persian!)
And then there are the people who will also use this .Net data who know
nothing about the region at all and all these names are a big blur...
There is Iranian in the modern sense and then there is the broader,
historic Iranian and someone who thinks the naming decision was made
carelessly and without taking cultural sensitivites in mind, will find
some way to make a fuss.  Whatever you choose, better put a lengthy
footnote and disclaimer.
That said, I truly do think Iranian is best.

  Daddy, look over there. There's some Persians speaking Farsi!
 :

I thought you'd like that!

-Connie
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RE: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-16 Thread C Bobroff

On Sun, 16 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 Something no
 body said is the Tajik people.  I've heard they use the same
 calendar, is it right?

Hang on a few days. I'll ask. -Connie
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RE: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-16 Thread C Bobroff

On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 http://emr.cs.iit.edu/home/reingold/calendar-book/second-edition/CIIT.ht
 ml

Thanks. I took a look. Perhaps the Islamic calendars should provide the
time as well as the date and also say which time zone/region the calendar
is referring to.
I guess this Calendar topic is quite complex!
-Connie
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Miscellaneous web issues

2004-05-16 Thread C Bobroff
Thanks to Peter, I finally got the Tajik project going (although under
construction!) here:
http://depts.washington.edu/yekruz/dialects/dialectsOfPersian.html

I've had a lot of problems and I'm throwing them at you for your kind
perusal and discussion of any points:

1. When viewed on WinXP/IE6, look what happens when you mouseover the
Persian words at the end (i.e. left margin) of each line. You also pick up
the space to the right of the first word in that line. Similarly, if you
attempt to mouseover the first word in the line and are just a little off
the word to the right, you unfortunately will pick up the last word in the
line.  Is this a bug or just my usual crazy coding style? This problem not
seen with Mozilla. Also not with left to right languages.

2. When viewed on WinXP/Mozilla1.7a, the ZWNJ's completely throw off my
mouseover javascript program. It can not find words with ZWNJ. And look
what happens if you mouseover the Tajik eqivalent: it displays the Persian
word ok but no ZWNJ. This problem not seen with IE. I left out all harakat
just so it would work in Mozilla (and Macs) so I'm sorry to see this
new problem.

3. To make the javascript arrays, I had to put a Persian word running from
right-to-left inside brackets [ ] running from left to right and this I
did in MS Notepad. Somehow, whether I copied or pasted or if I switched
language in the process some sort of invisible characters would be added
or else the brakets would end up like this: [ [ with the 2nd one running
in the opposite direction.  I had to keep re-doing and re-doing this,
almost going crazy in the process. Maybe if brackets [ ] were in the
Persian font, it would have been easier. I don't know. Punctuation in
bidirectional situations is troublesome.

4. Notepad also deposits 3 junk characters at the top, an i with 2 dots, 2
right-angle brackets and an upside-down question mark, however you can't
*see* them while in Notepad so you have to open the file in another text
program to delete them.  These 3 junk characters prevent the webpage from
working in certain browers.  Notepad is otherwise great because the latest
one is WYSIWYG and makes Persian data-entry easy and these 3 junk chars
are a small price to pay for that luxury. However, I'm open to a better
tool.

5.  Since -raa and -o are considered 2 separate words in Persian
script but hook up to the previous word in Tajik script, I had to employ
the ZWNJ just to have a one-to-one correspondence between languages for
the purposes of this project. I was wishing I had Behdad's beloved U+202F,
the Narrow No-Break Space for this operation!

6. I embedded the fonts again.  Looks beautiful on WInXP/IE6 and limited
others. I presume it looks terrible on the rest. Still thinking about what
to do about that. Behnam, how's the Tajik looking on your Mac?

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-15 Thread C Bobroff
On Sat, 15 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 So we've reached a consensus on using Iranian Calendar for the
 term referring to the solar calendar in action in Tehran, right?
Iranian Calendar does sound like the best choice.

Can you please be sure to mention in the documentation somewhere also
about the Shaahanshaahi calendar and how to convert and what's its
official name was and abbreviations, if any? That will be nice if that
system also makes its way into online conversion tools. It's a real
problem in places like Academic libraries when someone is, for example
told to catalog a book and there is something like 2536 which appears to
be a date, yet there is often no abbreviation or calendar  designation and
the poor cataloger has to run around looking for an expert and waste a lot
of time.

-Connie
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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

2004-05-10 Thread C Bobroff
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:

 No, I did not have any additional fonts on my machine: the machine was
re-installed 2 days before the experiment, with Win98SE, plus all available
updates, plus NetScape Communicator 4.8 and ORinoco wireless drivers.
None of these include Koodak font, do they? :-)

Thanks for the clarification, Masoud.  I've been studying your exhibits.
Very interesting that your Tahoma in English gives all the English
letters correctly. For example, the two letters in the name Hafiz should
not be available in your version of Tahoma. So you either are benefiting
from the updates or from my font via Weft. But why could it not have
also given you the corrected Yeh in Persian? Since your machine can handle
the Yeh in Koodak, it is not that it can't display the unicode character
or that there is some shaping problem.

Anyone have any ideas?
-Connie

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RE: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-10 Thread C Bobroff

On Sun, 9 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However,
 in certain cases such as in the month calendar headers it is acceptable
 to use the first letter of weekdays. The direction is also from right to
 left.

Maybe you should also mention the style in Behdad's middle picture. The
one with the days of the week on the side. Maybe some segment of the
population is accustomed to seeing that style. You might mess up their
life if you take away what they're comfortable with! (Of course,
this is beyond the abbreviation question.)  -Connie
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WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

2004-05-07 Thread C Bobroff
We've had a few discussions about WEFT before in the past but never really
explored it completely.  Therefore, I made this demo page in both
English and Persian and embedded Tahoma, Koodak(by FarsiWeb) and Arabic
Typesetting:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/weft.htm

Can you please check if Weft has worked? Do you see my fonts correctly?
Is the Yeh (medial form) showing up correctly in all fonts, especially on
Win98? Is the load time any longer than usual? If you have the old, buggy
Tahoma font, is my corrected font showing up instead?  If you have the old
Sinasoft or Borna Koodak, is my FarsiWeb Koodak showing up?

Please report your findings! Be sure to mention which version of Windows
and IE. By the way, you have to uninstall these fonts if you have them,
otherwise, the test is not too helpful :)

As you may know, Weft only works on Windows and IE so don't bother to
check on anything else.  Also please don't look at the source code! I was
in a great hurry and yes, it's a mess.  Anyone who is qualified is welcome
to redo it if too unbearable.  I would appreciate that!

Thanks!
-Connie
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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

2004-05-07 Thread C Bobroff
On Fri, 7 May 2004, Arash Zeini wrote:

Hi Arash,

You must have an older version of Tahoma on your computer.  I think these
Latin characters with diacritics were only recently added to Tahoma. (They
seem to have forgotten z with line underneath even in the latest which is
a problem for Persian transliteration.) Or maybe the reason was something
else?  Even when I was trying to create a PDF file from the webpage, Adobe
showed unknown character boxes for those same characters you mentioned
even though they were displayed just fine on the the webpage. I had to
waste a lot of time making a screenshot jpeg then converting to pdf!

Of course, Weft is not supposed to work on Konqueror/KDE.  Perhaps it is
possible to add the missing features.  I know it used to be possible to
use Weft on Netscape until they voluntarily stopped supporting whatever
necessary component was involved in implementing Weft. Whether this was a
technical or commercial decision, I don't know.

-Connie

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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

2004-05-07 Thread C Bobroff
On Fri, 7 May 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:

 IE6.0 on Win2K: OK
Noted.

 Mozilla1.7RC1 on Win2K: OK (but the font of Arabic typesetting is very big!)
I see you've sent a followup. That's right, Weft is not supposed
to work on anything but Win and IE so no point checking really.
By the way, Arabic Typesetting is REALLY small compared to the core fonts
so I had to increase the size.  It's not meant for web use, only print.
But because of the size incompatibility, that makes it easy to see if
Weft is or is not working because the lines will wrap if your default
font appears. They designed Arabic Typesetting at a super small size
because the small vowels sometimes get cut off.)


 And I suppose the English translation of Bushaq poem is written in
 Koodak font (not in Tahoma as it says).
No Latin subset exists in the Koodak font.
I was forced to use Tahoma :(

 Another point is: why is it  instead of  and  instead of ?
I just quoted the book verbatim.
Ka's is sometimes seen written with a hamzeh as in Arabic.
I checked the meter (vazn) and could not see any reason why Haafez should
put the hamzeh in daas since the meter is not affected although the poet
certainly has the right to make this common orthographic variant all he
pleases.
The Khanlari edition of his Divan has no hamzeh. I tell you what, Ali,
I'll ask the author of the book I'm quoting and get back to you on this
point! Thank you for spotting that. That's interesting.

-Connie

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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

2004-05-07 Thread C Bobroff
On Fri, 7 May 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Fariborz,

  (I know you really don't want to hear
 from eye-rain-ians ).

If you're referring to seeing too much rain around here this morning,
you're absolutely right :)

 What I've found
 useful -- especially for testing -- is VMWare.

The reason I prefer the human testers is because Weft is very sensitive
and we've seen that even on the same version of Windows and IE, Weft
can behave differently. VMWare will  give only one scenario and that
too, probably in ideal conditions. It makes a difference if the user has
enforced internet settings or if the machine is in kiosk mode, etc.  I
think it would be more useful to get a wide range of responses.

(Not saying I won't try it out anyhow so thanks for the idea!)

 P.S. Mac OS X users can use VirutalPC for PC virtual machine
 on a Mac.
Maybe our Mac expert in Toronto will have something to say on this.
Behnam?

-Connie

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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-04 Thread C Bobroff
On Mon, 3 May 2004, Jon D. wrote:

 http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajmcyr.ttf
 http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajtcyr.ttf

Thanks, Jon.  I guess these are hacked Monaco and Times New Roman
although I didn't look too carefully.

Meanwhile, Peter has sent me a keyboard and wonderful documentation which
I'm still trying out.  It does look like MS Arial Unicode and TITUS  can
handle the few extra Tajik characters although both fonts are more about
function than appearance and not so practical for webuse. That's
why people resort to hacking, I suppose.

Still, they are a lot  better than nothing and maybe I can get back on the
project I'd shelved earlier. Too bad I didn't ask here earlier!

Thanks again for checking.
-Connie

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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-02 Thread C Bobroff

On Sun, 2 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 [3.2.3]
 There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, it
 is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the month calendars as
 ^^
Common?
How about, acceptable or something like that?

-Connie
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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-04-30 Thread C Bobroff
Peter,

Please send me your Tajik keyboard and we can discuss it further off the
list.  I don't think Arial Unicode MS will do but TITUS may work. I'll
have to check.  My particular project was for the web so even if we do
find a font, it will boil down to the eternal question of whether to
embed, use graphics or force the user to download the font (or some
combination thereof.)

-Connie

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote:

 Arial Unicode MS should do, plus (probably) Code2000 by James Kass or
 (possibly) Bitstream TITUS Unicode -- I've to check the latter ones. I am
 quite certain that there are a couple of Russian-made (not hacked) fonts
 around, too.

 Peter


 -Original Message-
 From: C Bobroff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:16 PM
 To: Linguasoft
 Cc: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'PersianComputing'
 Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo


 On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote:

  It's very easy to type Tajik using a Phonetic (i.e., mnemonic) Cyrillic
  keyboard.

 With which font though? I could only find hacked fonts.

 -Connie


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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-27 Thread C Bobroff

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

  I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided.

 Good you finally got it... ;)

Thank you for your vigilance ...and patience, Behdad.

-Connie
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Re: IranL10nInfo

2004-04-27 Thread C Bobroff
 Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET

Omid,

Thanks and good idea.

Why not also include Afghan and Tajik data?  No one is looking out for
them. For example, I recently tried to figure out the date in Afghanistan.
There are dozens of online converters but all they've done I think is take
FarsiWeb's Jalali converter and change Esfand to Hut, etc with no
attention to the different way the leap year is calculated making the
calendar useless.  (Luckily someone finally provided me with a trustworthy
off-line calendar.) Then I tried to type a paragraph in Tajik and the best
font I could find was a hacked Times New Roman which was unusable.  A side
benefit to taking the other Persians into consideration is that it
brings up issues of Iran Persian which might have otherwise gone
unnoticed.

Just a humble suggestion.

-Connie

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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-27 Thread C Bobroff

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 Oh! I am late to vote!

No hurry, votes can be added any time. All I ask is that voters
actually be living in Iran. If anyone else still wants to submit their
vote, please do so.

 It is very common to use the first letter of weekdays in month calendars.
Interesting that we have the full spectrum now from never to
very common.

-Connie
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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-27 Thread C Bobroff
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 Seems like I still should clarify some things for you :).
You've indeed clarified the conflicting results of the vote.  I shall
update my info accordingly.

 So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys
 use it in Sharif University :P.
OK, but kindly don't involve Roozbeh in any  flamefests until AFTER he's
done with the fonts.  Then you may have a go at him all you like :)

 If you find anyone who claims
 letter form is used in Persian for anything other than what I
 described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P.

 Ok, time to go,

OK, some other time we can discuss use of ZWJ  tatweel  isolated letter
plus period used for abbreviations/short forms in Persian dictionaries.
(There's usually a chart in the front of the book.)
Something to look forward to in the future.

-Connie
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Re: Nested RTL Lists in Mozilla

2004-03-06 Thread C Bobroff


On Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Behnam Esfahbod wrote:

 In new mozilla release (1.7a), the bug for alignment of nested
 right-to-left lists has fixed.  Now all type of lists (ol|ul) work
 properly in RtL direction.

 Test Page: http://bamdad.org/~behnam/test/list.fa.html

But the numbers in the list are still not in Persian...

-Connie
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Re: English-Persian dictionary on your site (fwd)

2004-03-04 Thread C Bobroff

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 that have access to Aryanpour hardcopy can spend a few minutes to
 confirm that the dictionary at http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/dictionary/
 contains the Aryanpour data.

Aryanpur Kashani, Abbas. The Concise English-Persian dictionary.

-Connie
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Re: PersoArabic font challenge

2004-03-02 Thread C Bobroff
 A comment on Tom Milo: he is an expert in the script, but not in Unicode
 really. What he says and writes are wonderful stuff (specifically the
 calligraphy parts), but don't trust the accuracy of what he says about
 Unicode or other standards.

I appreciated the mention of ae (as opposed to heh).  That's so
interesting.  Did Persian (unicode) ever use ae? Was it then deprecated?

-Connie
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Re: AR-EN Morphoanalytical Dictionary

2004-03-02 Thread C Bobroff
By the way, who ARE the Aryanpour brothers?  We see their data in online
dictionaries all over the place.  Do they not know or care? Of course,
the printed versions keep getting reprinted so they get some benefit. But
what is their story? Have they ever spoken on this subject?
-Connie
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Re: persian font Footnote

2004-01-11 Thread C Bobroff
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Payam Poursaied wrote:

 would someone please help me to create persian font footnote? [MS word]
 in the body of text, it is displayed by persian digits, but in the
 footnote section it appears in latin digits

Payam,
This is a bug but I can think of two solutions for now.

If you have gobs of footnotes, go into the control panel and globally
change all your digits to Iran style. (See archives for exact method,
someone just 2-3 days ago asked about page numbers and it came up in that
discussion.) When you're done with the document, change system back to
whatever you had before.

Or,

If you have only a few footnotes, just choose SYMBOL when it prompts you
for what kind of style of footnotes you want.  You can select font (for
example Tahoma) and fontsize and then the symbol which in this case is
actually a number.  Unfortunately, I don't know of any way to align it on
the right margin.

There may be other, equally non-standard methods, of course.

-Connie
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Re: Using of U+066C as a number-separator

2004-01-11 Thread C Bobroff
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 Other people like Connie are
 sacrificing their life to get our comments and translate it into
 pages that the other 90% can understand.

Speaking of which, I'm just today attempting to make a Persian keyboard
for fingers which are used to typing English. (Peter Hauer already make
the nice Keyman keyboard and that's great expecially for Win9x users but
we also need one which works system-wide, not just in word-processing
programs. The MS layout created keyboards only work on Win2000 and later.)

Hopefully I'll get this done by the time the new fonts are past beta
stage.

Anyhow, I  need some help. I'm just cheating by using Farsiweb's
Persian experimental standard keyboard and rearranging things. Please
tell me why you have included the following. Are they used for Persian?
U+0060 Grave Accent
U+003b Western Semicolon
U+003F Western question mark
U+0027 Apostrophe

I decided to put the Arabic numerals as well as Persian. I think that will
be useful in some cases. What do you think? (Don't worry, they're hard to
reach--Shift+Cntrl+Alt!)

By the way, this is very hard making all these executive decisions and
I've ended up doing some crazy things. Like the 4 key was already maxed
out for Persian 4, Rial, $ and Arabic 4 so I put the Euro on Cntrl+Alt+e.

And I think I've put the ZWNJ on a total of 3 different keys, just for
good measure!  Someone stop me! Out of control!!


 And this ignorance thing is gonna kill us some day or another.
Just think of the sheer amount of time wasted on cross referencing and
explaining to people who really have no clue what these two names mean and
all the misunderstandings. The damage can not be exaggerated.

I heard a news report on Bam where the reporter seemed to not be sure if
the country was called Iran or Iraq. Maybe just like the Farsi or Persian
thing??  Utter confusion!

-Connie
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Re: Using of U+066C as a number-separator

2004-01-11 Thread C Bobroff
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 We did that because we wanted to allow all the ASCII printable
 characters. The real need was for things like XML, where some of these
 characters are part of the syntax. The user will want to enter Persian
 XML without ever switching to a Latin layout.

Glad I asked before deleting!
I don't know about these things.

 Why should one object to additions? You can go and add Koranic marks or
 Urdu letters also.

ok! Thank you for your blessing. It is indeed a shame to allow keys to go
unused.

-Connie
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Re: Using of U+066C as a number-separator

2004-01-11 Thread C Bobroff
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 Put them in if you have the space. They'll prove to be necessary. It's
 not XML only. It's everything that is considered *rich text*, a text
 file that is supposed to mean more than the exact text. HTML, XML, TeX,
 ...

Sure, I'll put them.

I wish there was a way to put 2-3 characters on a single keystroke with
this tool. How have they managed that with Rial on the normal keyboards?

-Connie
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Re: New beta release of Persian Fonts

2004-01-08 Thread C Bobroff

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 You can download your copy from:

   http://www.farsiweb.info/font/farsifonts-0.2.zip

I can't download.
I'm getting an alert box that says The Compressed (zipped) Folder is
invalid or corrupted.

Is it just me?

-Connie
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Re: Writing Farsi with a german Word

2004-01-07 Thread C Bobroff
Thomas,

When you're in Word, just go
Tools  Options  Complex Scripts  Context

Context means it will see that you're typing Persian and change the
numbers accordingly to Persian.

There's a bug with page numbers if you want to read about it:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/numbers.htm

Someone also recently mentioned the following method which I haven't tried
so I can't say if it works.  It may change all your numbers to Persian in
a more permanent fashion. Maybe someone else here can comment:

1. Control panel

2. Regional and language options

3. `Select an item to match its Preferences' to Farsi

4. Click `Customize'

5. The last option: `Digit substitution' to `National'

6. Confirm all

-Connie

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Re: Writing Farsi with a german Word

2004-01-07 Thread C Bobroff

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 18:36, Thomas Speck wrote:
  When I start Word 2003, and change the language to farsi, i can type in
  farsi, but the numerals appear in western typeset.

 That's a misfeature in MS Windows keyboard layouts.

I think it's supposed to be a feature. Some people prefer Western-style
numerals even if the text is in some other language. (Not saying this
should be the default.)  I think they forgot how to use their own
numbers.  As Peter pointed out, Persian speakers seem to be fast
forgetting how to read Nasta`liq.

-Connie
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Re: Writing Farsi with a german Word

2004-01-07 Thread C Bobroff
 Well, almost nobody can read even the text of their (the Calligrapher
 Association's) arm... ;)

Likely a feature, not a bug.

-Connie
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Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect (second e-mail)

2004-01-07 Thread C Bobroff
Behzad,

You are a wonder with scanner and hi-liter! Thank you and good job!!
I'll let you know when the museum exposition is ready for your perusal.
(Certain others may like to note how promptly Behzad has sent that when
I'm still waiting for printed wedding invitations, flyers, invoices, etc
with the Arabic Yeh and Kaf for the other museum exhibit announced a long
time ago)

 Please kindly find the scanned page of the book (Persian Manual of Editing,
Is there a date on there? 138??

 Now I'm a little bit worry about a Comma vs. Reh War!
Just be glad you weren't around for the Heh+Hamza vs Heh+Yeh War.  Now
THAT was bloody.

 A professional in Persian language [Mr. MohammadReza Mohammadifar],
He DOES have a Heh+Hamza right there on the cover of his book so he can't
be TOO bad! (Now I'm going to get flamed...)

But why is he using the word, kaamaa? I thought it's virgul in
Persian?

-Connie
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Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect (second e-mail)

2004-01-07 Thread C Bobroff

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
  As a webmaster, I rather to use 'Reh', which consists with Web Usability Rules.

 Which Web Usability Rules??

Presumably he doesn't like the users to see a  box or ??? or ,.
The old font problem as usual! That is the source of all our problems!

-Connie
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Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect

2004-01-07 Thread C Bobroff

On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

  Please quote
 the exact Persian text (in faargilisi if necessary).

By the way,  what is the difference between faargilisi and finglish?

-Connie
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Re: Writing Farsi with a german Word

2004-01-07 Thread C Bobroff
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 No.  That is simply a bug.  People started to forget Persian
 numerals just after microsoft did this.  To back my opinion just
 note that in the old Dos era everyone used Persian numerals.  And
 the simple reason that MS did this bug *intentionally* is that
 their application does not parse Persian numeralas as numeric
 data, so if you type 12 with Persian digits in a font-size box in
 Office, it would give error.  So if they were to put Persian
 digits on keyboard, people need to switch to English to write any
 number (see what happenes in Excel).  And if they where to allow
 (let people know it's possible) to type Persian digits, people
 would request Persian digits in their Excel spreadsheets that was
 not possible.  So they simply removed Persian digits from the
 keyboard, and as there was no Persian costumer, they predicted no
 one is gonna ask them...


Behdad,
So many excellent points you have raised here! And how true!

-Connie
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Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect

2004-01-07 Thread C Bobroff
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 Historically (I see you are interested ;)
snip
 Well, that's almost it.

Yes, that is interesting!  Let us know if there's more!
-Connie
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Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect (second e-mail)

2004-01-07 Thread C Bobroff
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 I tried to convince him to refine his work based on better references,
 but he didn't seem interested enough.
OK, one whole person gave him feedback.

 told me. I have his email address, if you want to try it yourself. He
 happens to read his emails, contrary to many other Iranian experts.
No thanks!

 You mean on the mailing list? No, I just checked, and he's not here, nor
 on any other mailing list on lists.sharif.edu.
You never know who's hiding behind all those hotmail and yahoo addresses!

-Connie
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Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect

2004-01-06 Thread C Bobroff
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 Reh is a workaround for the decimal separator (U+066B). This is the
 first time I'm seeing it recommended for a thousands separator.

Perhaps due to English (American???) influence? Otherwise, Persian has
borrowed punctuation from French where, in the case of numerals, the
comma and decimal point are used exactly opposite of English usage. That's
a nice coincidence that Reh resembles both a comma and the real Persian
decimal separator.
And now that you mention it, I recall the Arabic font-makers were having a
lot of trouble reaching a concensus as to what the decimal separator
should look like. (I don't remember the details, though.)

Speaking of comma (060C), are there any guidelines for Persian texts about
putting a space between the preceding word and the comma?  Again, I don't
remember exactly where I read that space or no space made a sylistic
difference.

 Anyway, it's not always a workaround. Iran University Press insist on
 using a Reh form for the decimal separator although they use
 TeX-e-Parsi which has a different glyph than Solidus (/) for the
 decimal separator.

Extremely cool!  I will take a closer look next time I'm reading.  Behzad,
If you find the time and energy to scan and send a jpeg of
the passage you quoted, I'll add that to the museum.  It has great
historical value.

-Connie
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Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect

2004-01-05 Thread C Bobroff
 As described in the book Nogh-teh GozAri (The official Persian Manual of Editing, 
 Vol.5, Punctuaion Book) written by Mohammad-RezA Mohammadi-Far, page 460:

 It is not correct to use comma (,) or U+06CC to separate every group of thousands 
 in numbers. Instead, the editor must use the Persian letter 'Reh (U+0631)'.

BEHzad,

Really? I thought the Reh was just a workaround for fonts lacking both
, and U+066C.  I didn't think it was something that should be
prescribed.

Do you have the publisher and date of publication of this manual?  This is
very interesting.

-Connie

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A nice announcement to start off the newly merged lists

2003-12-30 Thread C Bobroff
Check this out:
http://www.arabeyes.org/ace.php?ace=pournaderlang=en
-Connie
-

It is Arabeyes.org's utmost pleasure to note that Roozbeh Pournader
is this Quarter's featured ACE.

Do please read his interview (available in both English and Arabic)
to get a better glimpse into an individual who is not only very well
versed in all issues Open Source and Arabic but is also a pillar in
the community that has been an outspoken driver behind many scenes.
Roozbeh's efforts and assistance have NOT gone unnoticed and so the
entire Arabic Linux/Open Source community commends him on his continued
drive and perseverance.

+ Mentioned URLs:
  - http://www.arabeyes.org
  - http://www.arabeyes.org/ace.php
  - http://www.arabeyes.org/ace.php?ace=pournaderlang=en
  - http://www.arabeyes.org/ace.php?ace=pournaderlang=ar

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Re: [PersianComputing] An alphabetician on radio...

2003-11-22 Thread C Bobroff
 2) One of the callers says Farsi in a question, then immediately
 corrects himself with Persian!

TOO immediately. Sounded like he thinks Farsi-Persian is the complete,
proper name of some language! (Can't blame him!)
-Connie
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[PersianComputing] Fontsize Format Won't Work on Win2000 for Persian

2003-11-09 Thread C Bobroff
Many people with Win2000 have been complaining they can't adjust font size
or formatting once they enable Persian.  Since I never experienced this
problem I couldn't figure it out.  Well, one person has found the
solution:  Insert the Office CD! (Looks like more than one Mr Connie
Genius in the world.)  This is what happens when you're using someone
else's computer and you didn't personally enable right-to-left options on
day one.  Also it's strange that Win2000 doesn't prompt you to insert
the disk.  Of course, if you are engaging in a little, beh estelah,
copyright infringement and don't have the original disk, then this won't
help you.  Probably there are other ways to fix it but at least here is
one. Hope it helps someone. (I'm appending her emails below.)

-Connie

Forwarded Message--
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:30:10 +0200
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: font sizes in office 2000

Hi Connie - I've solved the font size problem! As I thought, it wasn't a
windows problem, but an office one.
To enable the font size changing function, you have to have installed
the second office2000-CD. Then you'll find the option microsoft
office tools in the programmes section of the start menu. One of
those office tools is office language settings. You click that, insert
CD1, then you choose Arabic as your favourite language. Then it
should work... maybe you can send this to those other people who
have my problem and see if it works for them as well?



Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:20:19 +0200
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: C Bobroff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: font sizes in office 2000

Hi Connie - it really was no trouble at all! You're welcome to post my
text,
but please put in that the option to choose Arabic as favourite language
appears only when you click apply first. Maybe it is not even necessary
to choose it as favourite, maybe it's enough just to enable it... I don't
know. As I wrote to you, I reinstalled windows and everything, now the
Persian problem is solved, but others have crept up.. so I don't know if
my
computer is working as it should be working. People should just try out.

*happy* greetings:-)
Antonia


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Re: [PersianComputing] Dictionary AND text translator

2003-11-01 Thread C Bobroff
 Pars Translator as English to Persian (Farsi) translation and dictionary is
 not new. We begun this services last year and this software has a 7 years
 market. Anyway, we are looking for interested group to have a joint project
 for Persian (Farsi) to English translator (text).
 Regards,
 Pars Translator Group,
 Ebadat A.R.

Ok, well, I seem to be the last to have found out.  You've made a really
cool tool. Congratulations!
When you get the Persian to English part running, please announce it here.
I can't do ALL your advertising for you, after all!!
-Connie


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[PersianComputing] Dictionary AND text translator

2003-10-31 Thread C Bobroff
I think this is new:

http://www.parstranslator.net

I tried the online service and it was quite fine.  I don't know about the
downloadable one.

-Connie
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