Re: Similar Unicode characters

2006-01-01 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sat, 2005-12-31 at 09:19 +0330, Mohsen Saboorian wrote:

 Is there any other similarities (mainly about Arabic letters) in other
 languages: e.g. Urdu.

Yes, both Pashto and Urdu have such problems. They both use the Persian
Kaf (KEHEH), and Pashto uses both the the Arabic Yeh (YEH) and the
Persian Yeh (FARSI YEH). Urdu also has an alternative Yeh, YEH BARREE,
while Pashto has two additional Yehs, making the number of different
Yehs used in the language four or five (depending on if you count the
YEH WITH HAMZA or not.) Their situation is worse than Persian, since:

1) Higher level Urdu computing experts are somehow undecided about which
codes to use for Kaf.
2) Since Pashto uses both Persian and Arabic Yehs, which look the same
in medial form, different computing experts have come to different
conclusions about which code to use. See Everson and Pournader,
Computer Locale Requirements for Afghanistan, p. 5, available from
http://evertype.com/standards/af/

The situation of Kurdish is also interesting, as most Iranian users use
the Persian Kaf (at least in typography), while most Iraqi users use the
Arabic Kaf.

Roozbeh


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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

2005-10-18 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 18:33 +0330, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
 About tg vs tan: for a while, tg, cotg, and cosec were used.
 Then the academic community switched to tan, cot, and csc but the
 high school trigonometry textbooks remained with tg and family. After
 a while, the high school textbooks also switched. Now the common form
 used in all levels of education is tan and family.

Ah, something else. When the tg and family were the default, all such
trigonometric operators were typeset in italic type, not roman.

roozbeh


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Re: DocBook RTL document?

2005-07-23 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Thu, 2005-07-21 at 13:28 -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 I have no idea what engine they are using to produce PS or PDF.

Well, xmlto uses TeX for that. Sebastian Rahtz's PassiveTeX, IIRC.

roozbeh


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Re: ALL COMPUTER BOOKS IN THE WORLD

2005-06-04 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
Thanks for the notice. I removed the offending message from the
archives. Please make sure you don't quote the problematics parts in
your replies next time.

roozbeh


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Re: Persian Javascript Input under Firefox/Mozilla

2005-03-07 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 02:36 -0600, Pooya Karimian wrote:
 I have put together a javascript code based on Roozbeh Pournader/Behdad
 Esfahbod code to emulate Persian keyboard layout under
 Mozilla/Firefox/Internet Explorer.

Ah, it was never my code. I don't know how much Behdad worked on it, but
the only part I really did was making the keyboard layout compatible
with ISIRI 2901.

 There are also some small changes in the keyboard layout based on Behnam
 Esfahbod's suggestions.

I would appreciate to know the details.

roozbeh


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The New Alef

2005-02-23 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
There has been a new Alef around for quite a while. For those who don't
live in Iran or haven't seen it yet for any reasons, a photo is
available at:

http://bamdad.org/~roozbeh/alef.jpg

It's used on car plates, but the exact usage is disputed among a few
friends of mine.

roozbeh


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Re: The New Alef

2005-02-23 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2005-02-23 at 07:57 -0600, Connie Bobroff wrote:
 Quoting Roozbeh Pournader [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
  There has been a new Alef around for quite a while. 
 
 Why do you say new? Alef is always written out that way as in
 numbered lists, 

Umm..., because they connect the Alef to the Lam at the top and cut the
Feh short? I have never seen it like that in a numbered list.

roozbeh


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Re: FW: Re: Nesef Font

2005-02-22 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2005-02-21 at 01:15 -0700, Soran M. wrote:
 Does you Nesf2 font support Kurdish letters also that are not part of the 
 Arabic/Farsi alphabet?

No.

 If not, do you have any plans to do so?  Do you have any fonts that support 
 all Kurdish letters and Farsi letters.

No, there is no plan to extend Nesf or Nesf2 by the FarsiWeb project in
any way, or fix its known bugs.

But it is among the long term goals of the FarsiWeb project to add
support for other Iranian languages (including Kurdish) to the
farsifonts package which currently only supports Persian and Arabic.

roozbeh


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Re: It seems that kompare have problems in FC3 with UTF-8!

2005-01-18 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2005-01-18 at 09:03, Hedayat Vatakhah wrote:
 ITNO GOD
 Hi everybody,
 Kompare is a useful program for me.

May I ask what is Kompare exactly?

roozbeh


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Re: openoffice zwnj

2005-01-03 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sun, 2005-01-02 at 20:45, Mohammad Norouzi wrote:
 I have a big problem with typing farsi in the OpenOffice
 when I type zwnj some character like | appear that should not.
 Is there anyone who has the same problem or know the solution ??
 Is that a bug of oppenoffice ?

That's a famous bug that will happen in applications. KDE also had that
bug for quite a time until Behdad fixed it. The bug is because the
application or the rendering engine asks the font for a glyph for the
character, where it shouldn't. The application or the rendering engine
should not pass ZWNJ (and a few other invisible Unicode characters)
down.

I don't know if the bug is still present in latest versions of
OpenOffice.org, but it won't hurt checking and reporting the bug.
Please give me a URL to your bug report when you did it.

Roozbeh


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Re: Iranian clipart

2004-09-04 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 11:44, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
   * Islamic Republic of Iran official emblem, based on the same
 specification, with a very slight modification to match the
 emblem in common usage:

Questions: What exactly is that slight modification? How is this
different from the emblem which was already provided on the FarsiWeb
website?

roozbeh


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Re: Bidirectional Layouts in Gtk+ -- Slides

2004-07-19 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-07-20 at 05:18, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
  http://behdad.org/download/Presentations/bidi-layouts/

WOW! That is absolutely amazing. How was it received?

roozbeh


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[Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Farsi in Max OS X]]

2004-07-07 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
-Forwarded Message-
From: Michael Everson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Roozbeh Pournader [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Farsi in Max OS X]
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:54:27 +0100

At 19:18 +0430 2004-07-06, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

Your friend could try AbiWord 2.1.2 for OS X
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14743

It is free and is multi-platform and OpenSource.

-Forwarded Message-
From: Kit Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Farsi in Max OS X
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:48:02 +0430

I am doing some work in Afghanistan and would like to be able to
generate content in Dari on my Mac laptop running OS 10.3.4  So far it
appears that I cannot use Office X or Filemaker 5.5 and generate Dari
due to those applications not supporting unicode fonts.

Does anyone have any advice in this matter? If I upgrade to Filemaker
7.7 and Office 2004, will those applications recognize unicode and will
I require additional fonts?

Thank you for any help that can be provided.

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Re: Persian UTF-8 MySql collation

2004-07-05 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 19:41, C Bobroff wrote:

 If you're talking about sorting, it was recently pointed out (see
 archives) that Windows server 2003 can sort Persian properly.

I would appreciate if someone can volunteer to run a test data set
FarsiWeb has on it. I'm 100% sure they won't support Hamzas or Harakat
properly.

roozbeh


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Re: Persian UTF-8 MySql collation

2004-06-29 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
You can do proper Persian sorting using either glibc (available in all
GNU/Linux distributions), or ICU (available from
http://oss.software.ibm.com/icu/). There is no other software known to
the community that does Persian Unicode software properly without using
either of those.

roozbeh

On Thu, 2004-06-24 at 21:15, Peter Cruickshank wrote:
 Hello
 
 I'm a new subscriber to the list, so please forgive me if I'm asking an old
 question. I did look at the archives for last few months though and didn't
 see any discussion of this issue:
 
 The subject kind of explains it all - I'm part of a team adapting an open
 source MySql based content management system (Back-End - 
 www.back-end,org) to work with Persian content. A big stumbling block is
 getting UTF-8 collation working. We don't want to be reinventing wheels
 here - so it would be great to hear if someone has already built a UTF-8
 collation file and is willing to share it?
 
 Any help or pointers will be greatly appreciated!
 
 Thanks
 
 Peter

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Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates

2004-06-28 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
Hooman,

There is this application called Unibook that may help you NOT write the
software for browsing the database. Depends on your needs of course:

http://www.unicode.org/unibook/

roozbeh

On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 06:38, Hooman Mehr wrote:
 Hi Behdad,
 
 On Jun 26, 2004, at 1:50 AM, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 
 
  I'm confused now.  What do you expect in PropList.txt about
  U+060D?  If you read UCD.html, it says that files like
  PropList.txt just list those code points that hold a true value
  for the binary property.  Why they don't list the all??  Why
  should the do?  There are more than a million of them, while
  poins of interest are usually less than a thousand ones...
 
  behdad
 
 You are right, that was my mistake. I had some wrong perceptions about 
 U+060D that made me believe it would belong there. I am starting to 
 feel I need to import all those data files into a database for quick 
 reference. I am getting tired of having to find information scattered 
 across so many different places (book, charts and various data files) I 
 still feel there should be a better way for organizing all the 
 information in Unicode.
 
 - Hooman
 
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Re: Khotot project needs update

2004-06-22 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-06-22 at 09:08, Nadim Shaikli wrote:
 --- Munzir Taha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Nadim, please update the pages to reflect the last changes:
  
  For the farsifonts:
  There is a 0.4 release at
  http://www.farsiweb.info/font/farsifonts-0.4.zip
 
 I have no means to know this and I'd requested we be told (via a private
 mail or a mail to Arabeyes' general list) when such releases do happen.

Well, me telling you the latest is 0.4 started that thread. I will
definitely keep you posted on new releases, but that, I had already
told.

roozbeh


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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-21 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-06-21 at 04:34, C Bobroff wrote:
 On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
 
   we are *specifying* a single way to do
  things.
 
 Why the 2 calendars then?

Behdad gave some reason. The other is: because there may be other
restrictions. So we are practically saying if you want to do it
vertical, do it this way, if you want to do it horizontal, do it that
way. If you don't care about horizontal or vertical, we will give you a
preferred way.

roozbeh


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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-19 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sat, 2004-06-19 at 00:32, C Bobroff wrote:
 I'm so glad you also now see that to *forbid* marking ezaafe in personal
 names is absurd.

Connie, Please! You really don't see the point? We are not documenting
practice in the locale spec, we are *specifying* a single way to do
things. People are very welcome to ignore the specification and do
whatever they like to do, if they don't claim they follow it.

roozbeh


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Re: khatt e Farsi

2004-06-19 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Fri, 2004-06-18 at 21:49, Peyman wrote:

 After resolving this issue, I try to go through the nice draft and
 give my suggestions if any.

We would appreciate suggestions, independent of whether this issue gets
resolved or not.

roozbeh


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Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates

2004-06-19 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sat, 2004-06-19 at 18:41, Hooman Mehr wrote:
 [...] The best solution in my opinion is to provide exact format strings (as 
 arrays of Unicode characters with specific placeholders for date 
 elements). This will avoid any possible ambiguity in the specification.

That will be specified in a coming appendix, which will have the locale
data for ICU and GNU C library.

Anyway, the situation is worse than what you may guess. The Unicode
Consortium has changed the bidirectional category of a few characters,
including Slash, in Unicode 4.0.1. For Slash and its brethren, it's not
just Neutral or things like that. We are having stuff like European
Terminators and Common Separators in the Unicode Bidi algorithm.

 I sincerely hope that you won't tell me that you expect the users to 
 type 1383 then / then 1 then / then 12 to enter a date in short format, 
 because it would be unnatural and none obvious (although currently it 
 may be the only way to get a correct result with the available software 
 applications).

I'm not implying anything about users here. We are specifying how the
final text should be displayed. We have not specified how to encode it
(of course that doesn't mean one is allowed to encode it however he
likes). If we do that, we may not remain conforming to Unicode if
Unicode changes yet another bidirectional category in a later version.

 As I have seen, you have defended going back to using the correct yeh 
 and correcting the faulty software/fonts, so I hope you choose the 
 right thing to do this time as well.

I always do the right thing, don't I? ;-)

 Alright I know, you may say: It is impossible any other way!  What is 
 the solution?

I say: the answer is too technical to be included in the locale
specification. There will be different answers for different situations,
in different contexts, or in different Unicode versions.

BTW, Behdad is attending the Unicode Consortium's Technical Committee
meeting right now, and later the ISO JTC1/SC2 ones. I'm sure the UTC
meeting (which will be the first with a FarsiWeb member present) will
have good news for us (which may include more changes and clarifications
to the Bidirectional algorithm).

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-15 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 23:39, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.

I believe national requirements of a government counts, whoever the
author.

roozbeh



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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-15 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
I don't know how you got to the page, but it is about the the Arabic
*language* in Iran. The (almost) correct Persian page is at:

http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=fa_IR

(which is done partially by me.)

roozbeh

On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 05:01, Ali A. Khanban wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Have a look at:
 http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=ard_=en_US_r=IR;
 
 Maybe we need to submit the draft version to correct this. Anyway, as 
 long as there is a note, it should be OK to refer to script as Arabic, 
 though I still prefer something like Perso-Arabic.
 
 Best
 -ali-
 
 C Bobroff wrote:
 
 On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
   
 
 Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.
 
 
 
 Do a google search for pashto perso-arabic to see that many authors
 think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script.
 
 Then do a google search for pashto arabic script and you'll see with
 just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic
 script or called *Perso-Arabic.*
 
 If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply Arabic script.
 
 -Connie
   
 

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Re: OT: On computing, in Persian

2004-06-14 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 01:54, C Bobroff wrote:
 BTW, what's with this new usage of replacing Peh with Yeh. Do we not
 have enough Yeh problems as it is?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm seeing Peh's fine in the
article.

There is a chance that you are encountering a Tahoma's hinting bug that
drops the bottom Noghte of Peh in certain sizes. Are you seeing the
article in Tahoma? Do the Yeh's change back into Peh's if you resize the
document?

roozbeh


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Re: Personal names survey

2004-06-13 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 04:52, C Bobroff wrote:
 You have! You just didn't notice. You also put them (i.e. pronounce the
 ezaafe) in personal names when speaking which you also don't notice.

Like in feredrish-e niche, or reymond-e kaarver? ;)

roozbeh

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OT: On computing, in Persian

2004-06-13 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
The Shargh newspaper has a weird article about Linux and GNU. It's
off-topic here (it's in Persian and on Computing, just that), but it
used a really weird language that may be interesting for some members
here. It also mentions a few ideas about localization at the end. It's
titled Linux is a User of Philosophy:

   http://www.sharghnewspaper.com/830323/idea.htm#s68703

The credit to find it goes to Hamed Malek (a silent lurker here). I
don't read the andishe page in Shargh.

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-12 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 21:03, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 They all call it Latin Script (khatte laatin), right?

BTW, while khatte laatin is OK, khatte laatini is preferred.

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-12 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 21:28, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 Again, I'd like to know if other Arabic-based scripts, such as Pashto 
 and Ordu, call themselves Arabic script in their locale.

There doesn't exist a standardized locale for Urdu (or any non-standard
one I may know of), but Pashto has one (which I helped prepare and is
approved by their ministry of communication), and calls the script
Arabic.

roozbeh


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Re: khaate farsi

2004-06-12 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 21:46, Peyman wrote:
 The attached .jpg is a text from the book pishineye zabane farsi
 written by Dr. Safavi.

The text speaks about styles, not scripts. In other words, the text
you forwarded is one level lower in the tree. In other words, the Arabic
script may be written in different styles, Kufi, Naskhi, Suls, Nastaliq,
... The Persian that Dr Safavi specifies is in that classification.

 PS: Sorry if the jpg quality is not good because the list doesn't
 accept files bigger than 40KB

You can put them somewhere on the web and send a URL for files larger
than 40KB.

roozbeh


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Re: khaat e Farsi

2004-06-12 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Thu, 2004-06-10 at 10:26, Hooman Mehr wrote:
 If we don't like the Arabic word, we may substitute something like
 Islamic and call it Islamic Script. I don't mean to give it any
 religious weight, but just substituting the physical origin (Arabia)
 by culture that carried along this script into our country and a lot
 of other countries and caused a single writing system to become a
 family of closely related writing systems. 

Well, usually the script is religion-based. Currently, Latin usually
means christian or secular, Cyrillic means communist, Arabic means
Muslim, Hebrew means Jewish, ... But sorry, we don't want to invent
anything here.

 I suggest Roozbeh ask more expert (linguist) opinion to see if they
 have a Persian term for the above concept -- at least within their
 professional linguist circles.

Already done. They prefer to call this the Arabic script, to
differentiate it with writing the language in the Latin script, for
example.

BTW, experts don't necessary mean linguists here. There are also the
adibs, which sometimes have different opinions. Some of the adibs
may prefer khatt-e faarsi, I'm sure.

 This confusion among some potential audience of the document also
 indicates that you may need to add a footnote to explain the meaning
 of Arabic Script as intended in the locale document.

Thanks to the finding of Ali Khanban, we will put that footnote, also
referring to the text of the constitution and clarifying the context.

roozbeh

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Farsi vs Persian (Re: khaat e Farsi)

2004-06-12 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Thu, 2004-06-10 at 12:32, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 Don't know why, but it reminds me of the Persian vs. Farsi
 problem...

BTW, I just got my hand on the proceedings of The First Workshop on
Persian Language and Computer, which took place on May 25 and 26 in the
Faculty of Literature and Humanities of Tehran University. Most of the
articles contain the word faarsi in the Persian title, and not a
single one of the 58 refers to it as Farsi in the English title. They
all call it Persian.

This is good news. Almost no one is *that* ignorant.

roozbeh


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OT: GNOME/GNU (was Re: Mirroring in Unicode)

2004-06-12 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
 our target system (GNOME/GNU/Linux)

GNOME is a GNU project, of course.

roozbeh


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Re: khaat e Farsi

2004-06-12 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 20:09, Ordak D. Coward wrote:
 I am confused! Why people spell khaat with two a's? First I though
 it is a typo, but it seems everybody is writing it like that.

They perhaps wish to write it with two ts, but miss and type two a.s

 In my
 opinion, this by itself makes Kufi a different 'script' than modern
 Arabic.

Then you may also wish to differentiate Gothic from normal Latin. But
sorry, Unicode doesn't differentiate these, nor should good software.
The logic is the same, the semantics are the same, so we can call it the
same script (in Unicode terms).

 Now, I guess my original suggestion of Naskh is technically correct,
 if the following can add any weight to that choice:
 http://www.ancientscripts.com/arabic.html
 http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=56293

No, Nastalig is OK for Persian, so is Tahriri. We shouldn't require
Naskh, or restrict Persian writing to Naskh.

roozbeh


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Re: khaat e Farsi

2004-06-12 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 20:31, C Bobroff wrote:
 I believe Roozbeh, while typing the document was attempting to translate
 Perso-Arabic script into Persian. Not an easy job.

No, I was translating Arabic script into Persian.

roozbeh


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Re: khatt e Farsi -- was khaat e Farsi

2004-06-12 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 21:06, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 Well, I am afraid that may cause some problems in the future, especially 
 some ugly political ones. Let me tell you a story. The first time we 
 tried to approach High Council of Informatics showraaye aaliye 
 anformaatik to discuss a Unicode proposal, they were against using 
 Unicode, just because the letters were named Arabic letter  They 
 were of course mistaken, and it took a long time and effort to achieve 
 their support. I am sure Roozbeh still remembers those times.

Sure I do. But the times are now different. There are new organizations,
like the Language and Computer Council at the Persian Academy and the
Technical Council of the Persian Language at Supreme Council of ICT. 
These new councils, filled with linguists and technologists, now
understand the issue: they need a better name than just khatt-e
faarsi, and they call it khatt-e arabi.

They have also seen what Unicode has done for them on the web, and now
see that names of technical things better be not a matter of
nationalistic pride.

 Now, first of all, we do not talk about script family. Everyone agrees 
 that Persian script belongs to the Arabic scripts family. We just say 
 Persian script, and in a note we explain that this script belongs to 
 the Arabic scripts family. Please note that unlike western scripts that 
 can be called Latin script, there are many national and political 
 barriers and dilemmas, which prevent the nations on this side of the 
 world to call their script Arabic script. Choosing a very liberal, and 
 somehow radical, approach at the moment doesn't solve all of them!

Well, it all seems that we are talking about different things when we
use the term script. I guess if we define the thing we are talking
about in the document, things may get much easier.

 Secondly, as I mentioned before, we clearly have in the constitution 
 that the name of both language and script are Farsi. If we provide a 
 document that will become official and in which refer to our script as 
 Arabic (no matter how we explain it in a note), that surely will have 
 some side-effects.

This document is not official. It is a recommendation of Sharif
FarsiWeb, Inc., and will only be a requirement of the Persian Linux
project at the High Council of Informatics.

roozbeh


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Re: khaat e Farsi

2004-06-12 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 09:01, Peyman wrote:
 Conclusion: You can say that the origin of our alphabet is Arabic but
 you can not claim that our writing system is Arabic. Our writing
 system is Persian khaat e farsi. It is what my teacher Dr. Safavi as a
 linguist says in his book and what I also say as a linguist.

Well, I wish to emphasize that our writing system should be described as
Arabic in certain contexts, like when used in internationalized
computer systems.

Since you are a linguist, I wish to refer you to a linguistic text,
Daniels and Bright's The World's Writing Systems, Oxford University
Press, 1996, ISBN 0195079930. Please read Section 50, Arabic Writing.

 Dr Bateni proposed a minor change to our writing system long ago in
 order to better serve the Persian language; and they ignored him and
 fired him from the Tehran university because of political and
 religious red lines.

Please provide details. Linguistic details, at least.

roozbeh


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Re: khaat e Farsi

2004-06-12 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sat, 2004-06-12 at 19:04, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 Since you are a linguist, I wish to refer you to a linguistic text,
 Daniels and Bright's The World's Writing Systems, Oxford University
 Press, 1996, ISBN 0195079930. Please read Section 50, Arabic Writing.

... and section 62, Adaptation of Arabic Script.

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-09 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 08:42, C Bobroff wrote:
 No kidding, you really typed all those Hamzeh's all by yourself??

Yes. Why are you wondering?

 Do you agree that
 sometimes you say, behdaad-e esfahbod and other times you say, behdaad
 esfahbod? (Note, I said *say*, not *write* for now.)

Yes.

 And my next
 question is going to be, when?

I'm not sure. It really depends on the mood or the speed of speaking.

 That should keep you busy for a while!

You were wrong. ;)

roozbeh


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Re: IRI funded projects like Persian Linux (Was Re: something else)

2004-06-09 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 09:37, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 Come on.  This is one of those tricks of yours ;-).

Ah, I really didn't get you.

 I mean how
 many people you have seen *interested* in doing Open Source and
 left without warning...

Many. But I can't generalize such a rule to *every* case.

 I don't get all this NGO thing.  The money it comes from oil,
 passing a handful of hops, divided by two a handful of times...

Ah. Let's get away from this. I understand your position, and I don't
disagree with it, but let me be hopeful. It may be more productive for a
little while.

 BTW, their patched Pango is next to useless to me, since there's
 no patch provided, no information about when they did check out
 Pango, etc.  Roozbeh, can you ask them for a set of patches
 instead?

Mehran Mehr and Soheil Hassas Yegane are members of this list. I hope
they'll answer.

 I can probably help feeding the patches to Owen Taylor.

All but one of the patches are already in Pango. The other patch was
something Owen didn't like and said he'll do in another way. It's in his
TODO for next minor release of Pango.

roozbeh



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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-08 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 22:50, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 Over our dead body!  The whole world is still to solve that
 cursor movement problem, and you expect...

I expect to solve that ourselves (say, FarsiWeb and FriBidi teams), at
least for the perspective of Persian and Iranian users. Is it *that*
hard?

We don't need to pass over our own dead bodies. They will fund, we will
solve their problem.

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-08 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 07:41, C Bobroff wrote:
 On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
 
 http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
 
 Congratulations on getting a new typist who is not allergic to
 Hamzeh's!

It's the same old one. Roozbeh Pournader himself.

 But where did all the Kasreh's marking Ezafeh's go this time? And why no
 ZWNJ on plural -Ha's?

I tried doing it in the Academy's style, since we referring to the
Persian Academy's style as normative. I personally hate that, and so do
most of FarsiWeb staff, but we needed to be compliant here. Call that an
experience...

The Academy's style only puts kasre-ye ezaafes when there is a clear
ambiguity. And it writes -haa without a ZWNJ.

 Is that really true you aren't supposed to put a written Kasreh after
 given names? I know it's definitely not ok (spoken or written) with
 Rezaa ending in long aa but with Mohsen ending in a consonant? I
 believe it is common to both write and pronounce the -e there between
 given and family name. Please inform me.

Please note that the specification doesn't discuss pronunciations at
all. That only happens in one case (toman), where it better serves as a
footnote. At the same time, the Academy doesn't like the Kasras, so...

If that doesn't answer your question, please ask it in a different way
;)

 By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian and
 it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and all
 the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards
 from left to right.  I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It ends up
 in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets!

I don't know what may be the problem. I would be enlightened if you tell
about PDF tricks you may know that can solve that kind of problems.

roozbeh


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Re: [History] My Story, part 1 (1236 words)

2004-06-08 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 10:08, Hooman Mehr wrote:
 The spelling used by Roozbeh is the 
 official spelling used on someone's passport -- if he does not insist 
 otherwise.

I'm very sorry. I forgot that you spell it with oo.

 I insisted on Hooman spelling and got it even on my 
 passport.

So do I, with Roozbeh (but not with Pournader, which I prefer the
way it is).

roozbeh

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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-08 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 13:44, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 So don't say it this way that they are doing this great project
 which will save the humanity blah blah...  You still get excited
 by those words?

I am excited, since I saw some output from the people involved: A
commercial probabilistic English to Persian translation engine, a tagged
corpus of pronunciations for lots of standard Persian, an OCR that
worked wonderfully for handwritten disjoint Persian letters, and a
script that inserted all the kasre-ye ezaafes automatically (which
worked not only on whole sentences, but even on things like book
titles).

Let's just say this: Isn't a database of famous people and places' names
and their Persian translation not exciting if released as Open Source,
something that tells you Democritus is zimeghraatis and Casablanca is
daar ol-beyzaa? Specially if someone already has it?

I get excited when I see people who have done something that stays with
us. I get excited when they mention they'll be doing everything Open
Source without anybody pushing them. And it was not only me.

 IRI is IRI, period.

Does that make everybody living in IRI a fool?! 

 By the way, yes, it IS that hard, the cursor
 problem at least.

I know. But it's not something unsolvable by the FarsiWeb team, at least
theoretically. You don't agree?!

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-08 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:15, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 Th attachment should be a type, I guess.

Yes, it is a typo.

 Does that mean we should send our comments only to the above email and 
 not to this list?

That means we appreciate it if it is sent to that email address. You're
welcome to discuss any on-topic matter on the list of course.

roozbeh


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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-08 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:24, Ordak D. Coward wrote:
 What is the cursor problem exactly?

Have you tried typing multilingual text in an editor like MS Windows'
Notepad? The cursor, the selection, etc, are very hard to handle easily.
You'll get mad very soon.

 And why is it hard to solve?

Because:
1) You need to remain Unicode compliant w.r.t bidi algorithm.
2) You need to edit everything, from normal text to marked up XML or
LaTeX, and expected behavior is different with different kinds of text.
3) Different users have different expectations, so you need lots of
configurability for different kind of users in different locales.

 Is there an FAQ on open problems in Persian Computing?

No. Unless you start one.

roozbeh


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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-08 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:19, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:
 Roozbeh, is it possible to create a wiki for persian computing?

That is *planned* for FarsiWeb's website. I'm sure Behnam Esfahbod and
Elnaz Sarbar will announce here the good news about the new FarsiWeb
website, when it became ready.

roozbeh


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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-08 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:55, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 Well we have done it a few times, but I meant the tentative
 list we prepared for that Persian Linux project, but that ain't
 nothing.

Yeah, that was not about Persian Computing. That was about
internationalizing and localizing GNU/Linux software for Persian.

roozbeh


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[Fwd: New versions of the Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1)]

2004-06-08 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
-Forwarded Message-
From: Rick McGowan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: New versions of the Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 09:03:48 -0700

The Unicode Consortium announced today the release of new versions of the  
Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1) and the Locale Data Markup  
Language specification (LDML 1.1), providing key building blocks for  
software to support the world's languages. This new release contains data  
for 247 locales, covering 78 languages and 118 countries. There are also 36  
draft locales in the process of being developed, covering an additional 17  
languages and 7 countries.

For more information, see http://news.google.com/news?q=CLDR

Regards,
Rick McGowan
Unicode, Inc.


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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-07 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 08:20, C Bobroff wrote:
 I just thought the typist had used MS Word, then exported to Excel and
 then to some publishing program.

I'm sure both MS Word and MS Excel would crash under the weight of so
much text.

roozbeh


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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-07 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 08:26, C Bobroff wrote:
 That would be a problem. However, the bad entries can be edited out as
 they are discovered.

Who is to decide about what is bad? Are we professional linguists or
dictionary writers?

roozbeh


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Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

2004-06-07 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:

   http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf

Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
[EMAIL PROTECTED], or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
to us at the following address:

   Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
   PO Box 13445-389
   Tehran, Iran

Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free
documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the
license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are
able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain
conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is
copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to
do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the
information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in
proprietary software.

The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of
Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of
Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping
in the funding.

I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar,
Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing
community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the
main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me.

Roozbeh Pournader
Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.


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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-07 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 18:55, C Bobroff wrote:
 Who said they didn't break it up into smaller files?

And managed all the numbering and sorting and all that by hand?

roozbeh


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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-07 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 19:24, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:
 Yeah, that and the fact that you really should have TONS of memory if 
 you want to have it all in one file, plus a dual processor (2000+ Mhz) 
 machine ;-)

And even then, the quality will be incomparable with something typeset
with, say, TeX-e-Parsi.

roozbeh


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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-07 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 21:20, C Bobroff wrote:
 Now, do you have any more questions before [hopefully] heading off to bed?

OK, my mom just called. She was a little upset. ;-)

BTW, wait for the news from the next cool thing, called tarh-e jaame'-e
gostaresh-e kaarbari-e zabaan-e faarsi. The guys involved are wonderful
(incomparable to any other such meetings I've attended), and they are
planning to create things much better than your Sokhan Dictionary in the
process, like a Persian equivalent of the Collins Cobuild dictionary.
And at the same time, things like, let's say, a Unicode compliant text
editor whose cursor doesn't jump around unexpectedly, and a standard
about how to markup synchronous text, speech, and translations and then
a tool to convert it to a web page (like what Connie does sometimes
manually). And guess what? All the output will be Open Source!

Keep a look here for saner announcements. I need to rush home.

roozbeh


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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-07 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 21:43, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:
 I bet you've never used MSFT word, have you? I had to use it for the 
 reports/thesis I did at Sharif (circa 1997-8). There is this feature 
 called 'Master Document' that is basically a binder for all kinds of 
 word files, and can handle the chapter/page numbering and such. (I am 
 talking about Word 6.0, the later versions should still have this feature).

I use MS Word 2003 regularly. It's bad and sad, I can't have good change
control with it, and I need to boot into MS Windows to use it, but it's
working fine. I can't get fancy typesetting or automatic index
generation with it, but it's generally OK for something like a report or
a specification. But I won't try typesetting books in it. Even
TeX-e-Parsi wasn't enough when I last typeset a book. It choked when I
was using an automatically generated table of contents with a multiple
numbering scheme for pages and non-standard footnotes. I needed to
prepare the table of contents in a special separate run.

I was not talking about small documents. I was talking about typesetting
a whole seven-volume dictionary, with complex text and requirements.

 Fortunately, I have a good pen now. I just use it to write :-)

But unfortunately, you've forgotten where that Meem thing was on the
Persian keyboard, Huh?

roozbeh


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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-07 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 21:41, Behnam wrote:
 But for mortal 
 writers it's too complicated to master.

The writer is not supposed to master TeX. The publisher is.

roozbeh


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Re: Nazanin

2004-06-06 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sun, 2004-06-06 at 09:53, C Bobroff wrote:
 For making documents to print on paper or to be used as graphics, your
 best bet is still Borna Rayaneh:
 http://www.bornaray.com/en_fonts.asp?fn=per_fontsrfn=en_fontsparent=fontslistGrand=Main

I really believe that the current FarsiWeb fonts are much better than
Borna ones in standards conformance and quality. The variety is less, of
course.

 Note: these fonts are in the beta-testing stage and are not
 perfect yet even though the Farsiweb staff has hundreds of thousands of
 staff members on the job. (Just kidding, I think there are 2 or 3 people
 total??)

Less than that. Staff were working on that, but the fonts will not be
changed much more. Apart from fixing bugs (that Behnam Esfahbod and I
will do), there is some legal cleanup, adding history, etc.

 The greatest mystery of all: How can it be that the Iranian community in
 the United States which is the richest and most prosperous immigrant
 community of all has not bothered to get together and have a proper
 Persian font made and instead are waiting for Microsoft to provide it?

Maybe them not spending for such projects has made them the richest? ;)

roozbeh


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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-06 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sat, 2004-06-05 at 20:41, Pedram Safari wrote:
 The problem with encoding Persian into computer is rather fundamental
 though, as there is no standard yet, not even for use in every-day life,

You raise a valid point, but please note that this is not about
encoding, but about *orthography*. Every publisher has the same
problems, even if he doesn't use a computer to typeset his text.

 Please see a very well written article by Dr Masoumi-Hamedani in
 a recent issue of Nashr-e Danesh for this matter (don't have the exact
 reference).

We can try to scan the article and post the link to the list. BTW,
Dr Masoumi-Hamedani has changed his stance on the matter recently, it
seems. I heard this from him last Monday, but he didn't have the time to
elaborate on the matter then. I can't get his exact opinion either,
since he should be in France now and he's not coming back until about
two months later, it seems.

 for example Hezareh, as it has more 
 diversity in selecting word equivalents, and is more comprehensive.

I agree that Hezareh is a good superset of Aryanpour. But the
equivalents Persian terms are not always as good as Bateni.

roozbeh


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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-06 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sun, 2004-06-06 at 09:59, C Bobroff wrote:
 I think we all agree the Sukhan dictionary is going to waste in print
 form.

Well, as I mentioned already, there are people who believe it is a
complete waste by itself, not only in print form ;)

* Get it typed.
 Can I not assume it was originally typed in MS Word and the data can be
 uploaded in minutes?

MS Word?!! You really believe a professional publisher can prepare
Persian print quality books in MS Word?! There *have* been claims that
MS Word 2003 does *something* for the first time in MS Word history that
one can publish a professional-looking book with lots of efforts with it
(I actually heard this from a publisher), but that's all.

The books are usually prepared using software developed in Iran, like
Zarnegar. In case of dictionaries, usually very specialized software is
used to create a, say, Zarnegar document which can then be typeset.

roozbeh


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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-06 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sun, 2004-06-06 at 10:04, C Bobroff wrote:
 On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
 
  There are many claims that this doesn't add anything to the Mo'in
  Persian dictionary,
 How is that possible when it's physically twice as big?

Well, I was not talking literally. Doesn't add *much* may be better
wording. The claim is that the work is based on Moin's heavily, and the
new parts are not comparable in quality to Moin's work, with wrong
etymologies, bad definitions, etc.

 And now Pedram informs us it has a different approach, namely
 *definitions* rather than *synonyms*.

I can't confirm the definition vs synonyms part. I need to go ask, or
check. I don't have either Moin's or Sokhan. We use Sadri-Afshar's
Farhang-e Faarsi-e Emrooz mainly in FarsiWeb, since it has the modern
sense of the words (but is sometimes inadequate, specially when decoding
legal texts).

 Waste is what's in our favor here! Sokhan stands to lose no money if
 they just hand over the data and all rights.

I don't agree. I believe the publisher has long time commercial interest
in this (and won't be able to understand that this will actually help
his sales, too).

 It will be good publicity
 for them!

It will be.

 I'm sure it has a million defects. For example, I found one word
 ghash-gir meaning book-end and tried to use that on my Iranian friends
 but they'd never heard of it. (I'm not sure if the word was incorrect or
 you don't have book-ends in Iran! You know, the support you put at the end
 of your shelf to keep your books from toppling over...)

Don't test these things on those Iranian friends next time, then. They
seem to not have heard many other things also ;-)

BTW, the word is the only one I know for a book-end. And no, I
personally don't use the thing because my shelfs are always more than
full, but that thing is clearly called ghash-gir if someone knows the
device and its name. I don't know any other Persian word for it.

 I don't know if
 all the modern words have been approved by the Academy.

No one cares for that, in a dictionary. A good dictionary should have
all the Academy-approved words, but it should list all the words in
usage, approved by the slow Academy or not.

 Dictionaries get superceded rapidly ...

Not in Iran. Even if we want to be inclusive, there are only a few
usable Persian dictionaries: Dehkhoda's, Sokhan, Amid's, Moin's, and
Emrooz. That's all! And the only ones that *may* get updated are Sokhan
and Emrooz.

roozbeh


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Re: Misinformation!

2004-06-05 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 18:03, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 Behdad, does Unicode consortium provide a search collation table in
 addition to the collation table used for sorting? Or can the same
 table be used for this seach purposes as well?

Well, I'm not Behdad, but I guess I have some answers.

The first answer is: no, the Unicode Consortium doesn't provide any
collation table for sorting. The second answer is: Yes, you can use the
same table for searching. For example, you can use the data to ignore
secondary and tertiary differences in you string comparison for a loose
matching. But please note that the table is just there for the cases
that you don't know anything about the locale. For Persian, the table
needs to be tailored heavily.

roozbeh


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Re: Misinformation!

2004-06-05 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 20:04, Ordak D. Coward wrote:
 Is there a trustworhty easy-to-read document somewhere on the Internet
 that mentions all this issues that I can refer people to it?

I don't know easy to read may mean. Perhaps Connie's pages are the
best for that. For the more technical type, there is always ISIRI 6219.

roozbeh


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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

2004-06-05 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 07:46, C Bobroff wrote:
 Now,I wonder if some of you who are so experienced technically could do
 another dictionary project? At least as far as getting the data up in a
 legal way and then others could make the interface according to the needs
 of the target audience and connect with English and other languages.
 For example, I  think this very nice dictionary is a complete waste as it
 is available only in printed form in unmanageable 8 volumes:
 AUTHOR   Anvari, Hasan
  TITLEFarhang-e bozorg-e Sokhan / beh sarparasti-e Hasan Anvari
  PUBL INFOTehran : Sokhan, 1381 [2002]
 ISBN 9646961983 (set)
 
 It is in very clear typesetting, has latin transliteration, many idioms
 (estellah), examples of how to use in sentences, new words, dialect
 variations, etc.

There are many claims that this doesn't add anything to the Mo'in
Persian dictionary, and is a real waste of paper and shelf space. I've
heard oral critiques by Dr Masoumi-Hamedani (head of the Persian
Academy's Language and Computer group) and Mr Pourmomtaz (a linguist,
and the head of tarh-e jaame'-e kaarbari-e zabaan-e faarsi). I'm not
into the game of ethymology etc, but can ask the people who claimed such
for more details, if you insist.

 I'm sure this dictionary must have been funded by the Iranian government
 and no profits expected.

This was funded by a private publisher, as far as I know.

roozbeh


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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

2004-06-05 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 21:08, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
 I did this, and installed the new DLL on my system, and it works beatifully.
 It's the same keyboard layout, only Shift+Space inserts a ZWNJ instead of a
 space.  I thought I would submit it to sourceforge so that everyone can use
 the new tool.  Roozbeh, let me know if it would be okay for me to send the
 files to you to get them into the sourceforge, or if I should do something
 else.

I would appreciate if you send me the exact process you used and the
DLL, so we can publish it on the FarsiWeb website on SourceForge.

roozbeh


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Re: LeapYears of Iranian Calendar

2004-05-25 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-05-25 at 01:40, Ordak D. Coward wrote:
 I downloaded and tested a few dates with the Win32 executable of
 Jalali (the one at sourceforge). The bad news is that, the conversion
 is not correct.
 The conversion is wrong for 20 March 2005, and similarly a few other
 dates that should convert to 30 Esfand Year YYLP, instead all such
 dates convert either to 1 Farvardin YYLP or 1 Esfand YYLP, depending
 on how the date os set to 20 March 2005. The good news is that, the
 jalali.c source does convert such dates correctly.

Thanks for telling us. We forgot to update the MS Windows executable.

roozbeh


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Re: LeapYears of Iranian Calendar

2004-05-25 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-05-25 at 05:03, Ordak D. Coward wrote:
 Farsiweb should prepare -- if that is in the scope of FarsiWeb's work
 -- a draft of a recommended practice for implementing date conversion
 involving calendars used in Iran. This document will of course change
 over time, as long as better conversion methods are derived.

This is in the interest of FarsiWeb, but we don't have the time
currently. It seems that you have done some deep looking into the
subject. Why don't you write it? I'm sure you can write it from a better
perspective, and both the FarsiWeb staff and the PersianComputing
community can provide you with comments.

Both FarsiWeb and Connie can provide hosting or links, I'm sure.

roozbeh


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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

2004-05-25 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-05-25 at 17:43, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
 Would there be any way to assign ZWNJ to Shift+Space by coding the
 keyboard layout tool manually?  If you can send me the C/C++ source file
 off-list, I'll try to investigate it further.

There is no C/C++ source file. The source is a data file that MSKLC
compiles into the DLL. If the data file contains ZWNJ on shift-space, it
fails to compile. Microsoft developers confirmed that this is a bug.

roozbeh


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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

2004-05-25 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-05-25 at 17:43, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
 Well, maybe you're right, but I don't see how a text editor is supposed to
 know the encoding of a file without some kind of mark. 

Does Latin-1 (an old encoding of text files for Western Europe, also
called ISO 8859-1) had a mark to distinguish it from, say, CP1256 (an
old MS encoding for Arabic language)? Did ASCII have a mark? No. Text
files are text files. They are not supposed to have marks to distinguish
their character set.

The character set of a text file should be in the metadata (file name,
file system, environment variable, HTTP header, MIME header, ...) or it
should be auto-detected (UTF-8 is really easy to detect, since it has a
very regular mathematical pattern, UTF-16 is also easy to detect, since
it's recommended that it has a BOM), or it should be specified by the
user when he is opening a file.

 Plain text files have no means of
 identifying the character encoding,

That is somehow true. Plain text files have *sometimes* no means of
identifying the character encoding *by themselves*.

 so a single text file can be interpreted
 as UTF-7, UTF-8, UTF-16, UTF-32, etc. if there's nothing to declare the
 exact character encoding used.

UTF-7 is deprecated. UTF-16 and UTF-32 *do* have BOM marks in the
standards defining them, so it's OK if they use a BOM. UTF-8 doesn't
have that. Nor does ASCII, CP1256, Latin-1, etc.

 The point here is that, protocols which do not allow BOM are those who
 provide other means of specifying the character encoding.

The point is that Notepad doesn't add a mark to Latin-1 or CP1256, why
should it add one to UTF-8?!

 A certain byte
 stream can have multiple interpretations depending on what content encoding
 you use to interpret it, and there must be some way to cut off this
 confusion.

Yes, by either Metadata, auto-detection, or specific selection.

roozbeh


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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-24 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sun, 2004-05-16 at 16:02, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 I don't have many calendars in hand here, but when I was in Iran I found
 many calendars that use 'Amordad' instead of 'Mordad'. I took a photo of
 the only Iranian calendar I have here for you too see an instance.

Ah, that's an Eghbal calendar. They compute the calendar themselves
and specially have certain calendars for astrology uses. I won't
consider that an authoritative calendar.

Anyway, since we are going to recommend one thing, FarsiWeb will stick
with mordaad in written form. We understand the problems, but it looks
unavoidable. I will personally try to raise the issue in the next
Persian Academy meeting I attend.

roozbeh


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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

2004-05-24 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 23:13, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

 and Notepad is not an HTML editor

What is notepad? A text editor? Text editors should not insert a UTF-8
BOM either. The problem is that Microsoft sometimes invents non-standard
things and then pushes it so hard that Unicode adds it to parts of the
standard (or an FAQ). Microsoft conventions for .txt files in the
Unicode FAQ looks sarcastic to me.

roozbeh

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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

2004-05-24 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-05-19 at 10:25, C Bobroff wrote:
 Is there any way to type a hyphen
 that will resist break-up during wrapping?

Use the Insert | Symbol menu in MS Word for lots of other things also,
copyright symbols, non-breaking spaces, longer dashes, ...

roozbeh

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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

2004-05-24 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-05-19 at 14:05, Hooman Mehr wrote:

 The fact that Iranian authorities in this regard act as if they are 
 directly appointed by God is another story...

Don't get hot, please.

roozbeh

PS: Where is this admin hat? I left it just here last time! :'-(

roozbeh

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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

2004-05-24 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Thu, 2004-05-20 at 01:48, C Bobroff wrote:
 Roozbeh, is it not time to remove the experimental from its name?

No. This has not become a national standard yet. When it becomes a
national standard (and possibly changing a little at the time), we'll
remove experimental from the name.

roozbeh


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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

2004-05-24 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Thu, 2004-05-20 at 16:07, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
  You can re-live its creation here in the archives:
  http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/persiancomputing/2003-June/0
 00538.html
 [snip]
 
 Thanks for the links.  Seems like a very handy keyboard.  BTW, why the
 Shift-Space combination does not work?

Bug in Microsoft keyboard layout creation tool. Use Shift-B
temporarily.

roozbeh


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Re: LeapYears of Iranian Calendar

2004-05-24 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-05-24 at 10:28, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

 Another way to interpret this email is that Birashk's method fails to
 correctly predict the year 1403, and hence if we use that mehtod, all
 dates in year 1404 will be off by one day. On the other hand, using
 the 33 year period mentioned above works fine until year 1468.

That's it! I was waiting for someone to raise this. :)

roozbeh


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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-24 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 04:47, hameed afssari wrote:

 Microsoft Lunar Hijri calendar is based on Calculation of Saudi
 Arabian Authority and not Kuwait ...

I can't confirm that. Please see

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar

where it specifically mentions that: Microsoft uses the Kuwaiti
algorithm to convert Gregorian dates to the Islamic ones. It is based
on statistical analysis of historical data from Kuwait. 

roozbeh


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Re: Hooman Mehr (was: Iranian Calendar)

2004-05-24 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-05-19 at 19:46, Hooman Mehr wrote:
 One more thing, the reason that I may seem talented for story telling 
 is that I am an INFP (http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP.html), so 
 be-warned.

Ah, I can't confirm that, since it's too psychological. But Hooman talks
a lot! ;)  I can't forget him and Mehran Mehr (of CyberMehr) *standing*
and talking for around six hours, perhaps to see who resigns first! (And
he is wise, deep, and experienced, no one can deny that.)

Let me start with my story about Hooman. It was before FarsiWeb was born
(it was 1998 or 1997, I guess), when we still worked on FarsiTeX, and we
were trying to add a new font to FarsiTeX. A colleague, Hadi Karimi, had
found about Hooman and his company, Quartz Computer, and we went and met
him there. It was a long and productive session, when we learned about
Multiple Master fonts (and how they are different from METAFONTs),
Adobe's localization process, The euro conversion and its implication of
existing software, Unicode's lack of Subscript Alef for Persian, etc.
Hadi got page-size prints of the Azin font, and I got a good perspective
of Persian computing issues as Hooman looks at them.

And ah, I knew him before that. His name was mentioned in ISIRI 2901 and
ISIRI 3342, and he had written the most sensible article in the issue of
khabarnaame-ye anformaatik which was about the ISIRI 3342 standard. He
clearly mentioned there that ISIRI 3342 doesn't conform to the
requirements of the ISO 8859 set of standards, something that I found
about its importance years later.

I didn't meet him again until 2003, when he came to Sharif trying to
find the FarsiWeb people. I was very very busy at the moment, and not
knowing him, was trying to get rid of him! When he only told me his
name, I canceled everything else I was doing at the moment. It ended a
long frustration period of mine which I was thinking there is no person
I can learn from in the field who is still in Iran.

roozbeh


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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-17 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 01:41, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 You are self-conflicting yourself.  I define consensus as 100%
 vote of the talking community, and again I say we have reached a
 consensus here.

Take a poll, then.

roozbeh


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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-17 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sun, 2004-05-16 at 00:33, C Bobroff wrote:
 Can you please be sure to mention in the documentation somewhere also
 about the Shaahanshaahi calendar and how to convert

We don't know that. Exact questions are: when exactly did the calendar
become official? And when did it cease to be the official calendar?

Can you help in that?

roozbeh


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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-17 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 15:39, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 Shaahanshaahi calendar was introduced in 1355 and abolished in 1357. 

When exactly? I know that not all of 1357 was known as 2537.

roozbeh


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RE: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-17 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sun, 2004-05-16 at 18:15, Omid K. Rad wrote:
 In Iran we use the Iranian subtype of the Persian calendar,
 and in Afghanistan the Jalali subtype is used.

I don't get you. Afghanistan clearly doesn't use a Jalali subtype.
Their current leap year algorithm is synced with the Gregorian system,
so it's far from being a Jalali calendar.

 Fortunately in .NET it is possible to define subtypes for a calendar
 system provided that they use the same algorithm but differ in day
 names, month names, date patterns and so on.

This is the whole point: the algorithm is different for Iran and
Afghanistan.

roozbeh


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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-17 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sun, 2004-05-16 at 18:56, Hooman Mehr wrote:
 I think we should avoid solar / lunar 
 designations in the English name to make it more meaningful and less 
 confusing for none-Iranians.

I don't agree. One can't reduce confusion by being less specific. People
who work on calendars already know that the lunar Islamic calendar is
uses different rules in different countries. The Iranian Hejri-e
Ghamari calendar is exactly a certain localization of the calendar
others have. It's the new name that will create the confusion.

roozbeh


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RE: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-17 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 02:13, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 I've heard they use the same
 calendar, is it right?

I've heard that they celebrate Nowrooz, like the Azerbaijani people, but
that's all. They use the Gregorian calendar.

roozbeh


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Re: Iranian Calendar

2004-05-17 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 11:55, Hooman Mehr wrote:
 It comes upwith an initial estimate (or best guess) of the *adjusted*
 calendarwhich is usually only re-adjusted for Ramadan.

... and Shawwal.

 This pre-adjustedcalendar is not the same as the basic table in MSDN,
 nor the mostlyobservational Hijri calendar meant by MSDN and common in
 Saudi Arabia.

The Microsoft Hijri base calendar is acutally based on the Kuwaiti one.
I guess I saw it on the Wikipedia, but I can find the reference if it
proves to be important.

 Please note that a good calendar software service in an
 operatingsystem or application should be able to tell you precisely
 what wasthe date say 100,000 days ago at a specific location (within
 the rangeof validity of the calendar, of course) or what date it
 estimates tobe at a specific location 100,000 days in the future.

I don't agree. An operating system rarely allows any date calculation
for 270 years into the past or the future. Even for Gregorian.

roozbeh


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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

2004-05-17 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 17:44, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
 Those are the BOM marks for UTF-8.  Notepad injects them under your nose,
 and that's one of the reasons I avoid Notepad.  Frontpage text editor does
 not have that problem.
 
 A small note: what Notepad does here is *correct*, because it can instruct
 other editors about the content encoding of the file.  It just doesn't work
 with web documents, and that's expected, because Notepad has not been
 designed for creating web documents.

An important note: what Notepad does here is only acceptable. It's not
even recommended. HTML 4 clearly doesn't allow a UTF-8 BOM appear before
the HTML tag. Notepad is supposed to be a text editor. A text editor
shouldn't insert markup by itself. BTW, ISIRI 6219 strongly discourages
the use of a BOM in UTF-8 files.

roozbeh


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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-11 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-05-10 at 00:40, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 On SuHumm, after finishing the
 sentence, I go back to vote for Jalali!  As it avoid binding
 yet another meaning to the Persian/Iranian word, and we don't
 have to go on tell everybody that this Farsi Calendar is the
 same as the Persian Calendar or Iranian Calendar, which in
 turn used to be known as Jalali Calendar or Jalaali Calendar
 by MS...  Poof, Jalali Calendar is such a cute name, not?

It has a serious problem: there already exits a Jalali calendar that is
different from this calendar we are talking about. It uses the same leap
year rules, but each month is 30 days, with 5 or 6 additional days added
at the end [Mosahab Persian Encyclopedia, Vol 1, Page 657, taghvim-e
jalaali entry].

roozbeh


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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-11 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-05-10 at 02:09, Omid K. Rad wrote:
 I totally agree with you that the name Jalali keeps away all that
 confusion and debate around Farsi/Persian/Iranian and also
 Shamsi/Khorshidi.

There remains another confusion also: that the Afghan calendar is
different from the Iranian one in leap year calculation. And since the
origin of both is the Jalali calendar 

 But as far as I'm advised, the Jalali Calendar
 refers to an era other than the Hejrie Shamsi which is in use today,
 and the calculations are not exactly the same. This is what some people
 have told me, I don't know about the details though. Can anybody clarify
 please?

I confirm. The leap year calculation rule is supposedly that same, but
the lengths of the months is different.

roozbeh


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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-11 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-05-10 at 22:50, hameed afssari wrote:
 1. Jalali is the offical calendar of Afghanestan (although they may be
 using different month name).

They use different month names, yes, but they officially call it the
same as Iran: Hejri-e Shamsi or Hejri-e Khorshidi. That can be
confirmed by looking at any calendar published in Afghanistan.

To find some information about the calendars of Afghanistan, please see
page 23 of the CLRA report:

http://evertype.com/standards/af/af-locales.pdf

 2. By calling it Persian or Iranian Calendar you are be default
 limiting it's use to a country or region and that is not correct.

Actually, that will make it very correct. The actual computation of the
leap year in this calendar is based on the Iranian coordinates. To quote
the text of the official Iranian law of 1925, the first day of the
year, is the day that sun passes the spring equinox point between the
noon of that day and the noon of its previous day. You can see that it
refers to *noon*, which is defined differently in different parts of the
world. Iraj Malekpour, the previous guy in charge of the official
calendar of Iran, used the noon of the 52.5 degree meridian
(nesf-on-nahaar) that defines the official time of the country. I don't
know the current practice.

roozbeh


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RE: FW: IranL10nInfo - First Week of The Year

2004-05-08 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Thu, 2004-05-06 at 01:05, Omid K. Rad wrote:
 Thank you for the link. I found out that Unicode introduces another
 similar way.

Ah, it's not Unicode that does that. It's the Common Locale Repoistory
Project or something like that does that. Unicode has just agreed to
take that project under its umbrella, but the process is still
incomplete.

 BTW, this XML scheme that Unicode suggests seems so suitable:

Suitable for what? For specifying Iranian Persian requirements?

roozbeh


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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-02 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sat, 2004-05-01 at 19:38, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 the *correct* way is to order from right to left.

I confirm. The screenshot I sent was just for making people see
something. The preferred direction is right to left and then top to
bottom.

roozbeh


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Re: FW: IranL10nInfo - First Week of The Year

2004-05-02 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sun, 2004-05-02 at 04:31, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 Im going to find the regulation that is used in Iran to determine the first week 
 of the year.

There is no regulation or practice for that, as far as I know. I'd love
to be proved incorrect. (Well, actually the first week of the year
doesn't start until Farvardin 14 here in Iran!)

 To decide on the first week of the year weve got three rules (don't tire out 
 yourself with these, just read on):
 [...]

Are those the only ones .NET allows? The POSIX standards allow four
more. The general idea is identifying a certain day of the week that its
occurence marks a first week of the year. Considering Saturday as the
first day of the week, your FirstDay is equivalent to POSIX's Friday,
your FirstFourDayWeek is equivalent to Tuesday, and your
FirstFullWeek is equivalent to Saturday.
 
roozbeh


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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-01 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Fri, 2004-04-30 at 13:47, Linguasoft wrote:
 The Cyrillic alphabet uses two graphemes d+zh to
 represent the sound of Perso-Arabic jeem. Similar as dj used in French
 transliteration of Arabic, etc.

I can't agree. The spelling is clearly  which you can see has
only six letters. No digraph for the sound:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajik_language

roozbeh


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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-04-29 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 20:05, C Bobroff wrote:
  About your suggestion, however, we (i.e. our team) have no idea about
  Afghan and Tajik languages.
 It's all one language, different conventions.

For example, Tajiki is written in the Cyrillic alphabet instead of
Arabic. ;)

roozbeh


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BBC Persian on Internet and the Persian Language

2004-04-29 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
There is a debate story by BBC Persian on the Internet and the Persian
Langauge here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/interactivity/debate/story/2004/04/040428_mf_bt_weblanguage.shtml

roozbeh


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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-29 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 09:06, C Bobroff wrote:
 OK, but kindly don't involve Roozbeh in any  flamefests until AFTER he's
 done with the fonts.

Not much has happened with the fonts since last year (1382), and the
latest version is 0.4. BTW, we need volunteers for tracking bugs in the
fonts.

As for me, I've been busy with the Academy stuff, specifications for
Persian locale information and collation, and committee work for the
FarsiLinux Technical Committee.

roozbeh


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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-27 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 08:10, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 First one is the concept of an abbreviation:  I'm strongly with
 the idea that a single letter is not called an abbreviation.  I
 doubt if anyone disagree on this.
 
 Ok, let's see what we have in English:
 
 Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ...
 Sun, Mon, Tue, ...
 S, M, T, ...
 
 January, February, March, ...
 Jan, Feb, Mar, ...
 J, F, M, ...
 
 Let's call the first representation the long form, the second
 the short form, and the third the letter form.  Now, again, I
 doubt if anyone disagree here that the entries in the short
 form are called abbreviations, neither the long form, nor the
 letter form.
 
 And where are they used:
 
 * long form, in long date representations.  Using the usual
 sample:  Tuesday, 21 September 1982.
 
 * short form, in a compact representation and in width-limited
 fields: Tue, 21 Sep 1982.
 
 * letter form, used ONLY in a two dimensional representation of
 a calendar.  Like this:
 
  September 1982
   S  M  T  W  T  F  S
 1  2  3  4
5  6  7  8  9 10 11
   12 13 14 15 16 17 18
   19 20 21 22 23 24 25
   26 27 28 29 30
 
 Infact, when space allows, a two letter variant looks even
 better:
 
  September 1982
   Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
 1  2  3  4
5  6  7  8  9 10 11
   12 13 14 15 16 17 18
   19 20 21 22 23 24 25
   26 27 28 29 30
 
 But you never see: T, 21 S 1982, do you?  (mister Jones :P).
 So, the point is that, the letter form (or biletter form) is
 not an abbreviation, and is an straight *mechanical* derivation
 of the other forms, to fulfill the space requirements.  Again,
 note that it's simply S, not S., ie. no abbreviation.

I copy everything to this point. I agree completely now. (I believed
otherwise about two months ago or something like that, until Behdad
convinced me.)

 * short form, we don't have short forms in Persian.  There is
 an strong reason for that:  We don't have upper and lower case
 letters.  Why can we have these abbreviations in English?
 Because Sat is completely different from sat.  But that's not
 possible in Persian.  In Persian the only way to make
 abbreviations is to pick the first letters of a phrase, like
 h.sh. for hejrie shamshi.

I can't agree. There are other ways, like what Mosahab Persian
Encyclopedia has done. I'll get one of FarsiWeb staff to scan a page.

 * letter form, is again used quite like the English case, ie.
 in two dimensional printed calendars, but NOT anywhere else.

Agreed.

 So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys
 use it in Sharif University :P.

Hmmm... They use it where you say they use it. On tables.

 If you find anyone who claims
 letter form is used in Persian for anything other than what I
 described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P.

I copy you.

roozbeh


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Re: GNOME Language and Culture capplet

2004-04-04 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Thu, 2004-04-01 at 09:20, Behnam Esfahbod wrote:
 Good news from GNOME 2.8:
 
 GNOME Language and Culture capplet (aka gnome-localization-preferences) 
 http://carlos.pemas.net/blog/200401030430.html

But GNOME system configuration tools (which this is one of) are not
included in many Linux distributions, like Fedora :(

roozbeh


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Re: Salaam (Q. reg. Persian Fonts)

2004-03-17 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-03-17 at 15:01, Behnam Esfahbod wrote:
 Hi.
 
 You can use http://www.farsiweb.info/font/farsifonts-0.2.zip as they 
 are full unicode-compatible and have more glyphs than bornas.

The latest version (0.4) of that, is available from:

http://www.farsiweb.info/font/farsifonts-0.4.zip
 ^^^
roozbeh


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Re: Salaam (Q. reg. Persian Fonts)

2004-03-17 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
Hi Siamak, and welcome to the list.

As one of the moderator of the mailing list, I would appreciate if you
use plain text emails instead of HTML ones. Not everybody can read HTML
email.

Roozbeh

On Wed, 2004-03-17 at 04:37, Siamak Moghbel wrote:
 Doostane Aziz,
 I was wondering if someone could send me a link where I can download
 Persian Fonts (preferability: khate nastaligh)
 I would greatly appreciate your help in this matter,
 Thanks,
 Siamak
 
 Cisco Systems, Inc.
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 ':||:'   ':||:'
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First Kurdish daily

2004-03-06 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
IRNA reports that the first Kurdish daily newspaper in Iran, called
aashti () has started publication today (March 6, Esfand 16).
Congratulations.

roozbeh


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