[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
There is a difference. Dead keys are typed before the base letter. These are typed after the base letter. Correct. A Unicode wordprocessor package in the creation of which I participated some 10 years ago called the latter variety accent modifier keys (which isn't very clear either). The question remains why you provide direct keyboard input for combining hamza madda. Are there any letter combinations other than with alef/ya/waw that can be created via combination? We want, say, modern Baluchi script as written in Iran. LoC will probably provide us with every Arabic letters that has ever been used in any Baluchi. I see your point. The best approach would probably be to ask a local publisher who publishes newspapers or magazines in these languages. But many of them may use patched fonts or simplications or other workarounds (I've seen accents added in handwriting for Pashto and even Dari!), so there is no guarantee of standard usage as well unless someone in your country eventually comes up with an official standard and provides workable technical solutions. As to Kurdish written in Arabic script, there may be variations due to the same reason. For example, I have seen texts where three dots are used in lieu of the caret-alike symbol that seems to be the one used in standard Kurdish (and in prestigious Kurdish dictionaries that I've consulted). My own experience comes mainly from occasional typesetting for the local Kurdish community here in C.Europe (among them, some well-known writers from Iraqi Kurdistan), but I can by no means guarantee that the Kurdish they write is identical with the Kurdish written in Iran... Let me give you an example. There is a certain character in Unicode, a Hah with two vertical dots over it, and it was mentioned as being a Pashto letter. We found that it's not used in modern Pashto at all. Unicode experts said that it comes from the librarians, so it should be used in older orthographies. [...] The same is true for traditional Urdu or Sindhi orthographies (e.g., letters with four dots), and I am sure you'll find the same phenomenon in many other languages (just think of Traditional Chinese versus Simplified Chinese which are now getting confused in Unicode so that the borderline can no longer be clearly drawn). In other words, whether you want these special characters for occasional use in a keyboard layout is a question where you draw the borderline... Best regards, Peter ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Linguasoft wrote: The question remains why you provide direct keyboard input for combining hamza madda. Are there any letter combinations other than with alef/ya/waw that can be created via combination? Yes. Heh. (I've seen accents added in handwriting for Pashto and even Dari!) Well, I've seen a whole Dari book typeset with a Pashto typewriter and then an additional slash added to each and every Gaf by hand. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: [PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
Remember that accents are different from HARAKATs. We only discussed combining symbols (hamza madda), not short vowels. Peter ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, C Bobroff wrote: If you don't redefine your concept of easy, Well, honestly the way it is now in MS software (or even Linux) is not good enough even for experts. IMO, all OS-es should come automatically with all languages enabled, or, at the minimum, come with an automatic update the first time the user opens a document in, say, Chinese or switches to a, say, Pashto keyboard layout. people are going to say it's too hard to bother with this script and that's why they advocate romanizing Persian. I don't care if they can do that properly. If they suggest a sane mechanism for latinizing Persian. The point is: nobody has ever come up with a real suggestion, one that considers all the invovled details. They usually just publish a table and stop there. I may even jump on the train if they come up with a reference dictionary and a software to convert the older documents. Do you know just to enable FA input on a Windows machine is asking too much for newbies? It is. That is the reason the newbies should have these automatically installed for them when they buy the machine. Or they should employ someone to do that for them!!! The golden rule is: If you are a newbie, know it, don't nag to others that you have a right to be ignorant, and ask or pay for expert advice. That's what is already happening in the law world, or the automechanic world, or ... I was even joking with someone at MS that a first-time user should be able to sit down at the comptuer and say, Please activate Persian and automatically FA will be enabled, Word will fire up, nastaliq font ^ No, no Nastaliq font. It's not the default for Persian anymore. People have a hard time reading Nastaliq for anything longer than a few words. at reasonable fontsize selected and RTL/right-aligned mode on and on-screen keyboad at your service! Even this probably won't be sufficient... It won't be. The system should start the Persian support at the first moment the user starts talking Persian to the microphone. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
I may help you with information from ALA-LC (American Library Association/Library of Congress) containing exact lists of characters, alongside with standard transliterations, for all languages you are interested in. For whatever they're worth, they're here as PDF files: http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/roman.html -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] Re: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
Oops! 2. This is a Windows feature: Ctrl+Shift will act like AltGr/right Alt. If you have shortcut keys assigned to them, they may start to act in a weird way. The truth is Ctrl+Alt act as AltGr (right Alt). -- Behnam Esfahbod ..[ http://esfahbod.info | behnam(a)esfahbod.info ] ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
Dear Roozbeh, Thanks for your efforts to provide us with an experimental version of the new standard keyboard layout for Persian ! I tried the keyboard in Word2000/Win2000, using Arial Unicode MS which displays all glyphs that can be generated via the keyboard except Riyal sign and Subscript alef. I am not quite sure in which context standalone versions of maddah, hamzah above and hamzah below are used, but assume they are there because they are in the Unicode standard. Standard shortcuts of Word for C, R, and T also work with the Persian keyboard. What does not work is Word's AutoCorrect option for smart quotes, i.e. neither quotation mark (U+0022) nor apostrophe (U+0027) are converted into their smart equivalents; I wonder if this feature is keyboard-(dll)-related but if it is, I suggest to implement it as well as many users, especially in bilingual context, may want to use typographically correct English quotation marks. How would you input ZSNJ, and RTL/LTR markers with the new keyboard? (These special characters aren't mentioned in keyboard.png as well.) I also wonder whether there is any accepted standard to show alef maqsura on keytops. In keyboard.png, you use an initial shape of ya without dots which may be misleading; how about using isolated ya without dots but with a superscript alef (I remember this was a keytop inscription on a keyboard for an Arabic/Persian typesetting machine that I use many years ago...) Are there any decisions as to support other regional languages such as Kurdish or Azeri? If the ultimate goal is to support several languages using an extended Arabic glyphset via one and the same keyboard, my feeling is that some Shift or Alt key positions may have better been reserved for special characters of these languages, or defined as deadkeys to create certain accented characters (as in case of the US International keyboard). Best regards, Peter E. Hauer Linguasoft Vienna, Austria -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roozbeh Pournader Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 2:56 PM To: The FarsiWeb Mailing List; Persian Computing list Subject: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows Using Microsoft's new keyboard creation tool, we created a keyboard layout based on the latest committee draft for the future national Iranian keyboard layout. You can download it at: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/farsitools/persiankeyboard.zip?downlo ad Important Note: This only works for Windows 2000, Windows XP, and Windows Server 2003. More Important Note: Please provide feedback, if you have any. Otherwise this may become a national standard and then suddenly you may start to nag ;-) Installation Instructions = 1. Download the ZIP file, and unpack it. 2. Go to the directory where you have unpacked the ZIP file, and double-click the file called 'Persian.msi' (or right-click on it and choose 'Install'). Follow the instructions. 3. Go to the keyboard layouts section of your Control Panel, and choose the Farsi layout to edit. In the small Windows that pops up, choose Farsi in the first dropdown dialog, and Persian experimental layout in the second. Press OK a few times. The new Persian layout should now replace the old MS layout. Known bugs == 1. Shift-Space doesn't work. You should use Shift+B for inserting Zero Width Non-Joiner. 2. This is a Windows feature: Ctrl+Shift will act like AltGr/right Alt. If you have shortcut keys assigned to them, they may start to act in a weird way. ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
Standard shortcuts of Word for C, R, and T refers to copyright, registered, and trademark signs ... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Linguasoft Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 4:25 PM To: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'The FarsiWeb Mailing List'; 'Persian Computing list' Subject: RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows Dear Roozbeh, Thanks for your efforts to provide us with an experimental version of the new standard keyboard layout for Persian ! I tried the keyboard in Word2000/Win2000, using Arial Unicode MS which displays all glyphs that can be generated via the keyboard except Riyal sign and Subscript alef. I am not quite sure in which context standalone versions of maddah, hamzah above and hamzah below are used, but assume they are there because they are in the Unicode standard. Standard shortcuts of Word for C, R, and T also work with the Persian keyboard. What does not work is Word's AutoCorrect option for smart quotes, i.e. neither quotation mark (U+0022) nor apostrophe (U+0027) are converted into their smart equivalents; I wonder if this feature is keyboard-(dll)-related but if it is, I suggest to implement it as well as many users, especially in bilingual context, may want to use typographically correct English quotation marks. How would you input ZSNJ, and RTL/LTR markers with the new keyboard? (These special characters aren't mentioned in keyboard.png as well.) I also wonder whether there is any accepted standard to show alef maqsura on keytops. In keyboard.png, you use an initial shape of ya without dots which may be misleading; how about using isolated ya without dots but with a superscript alef (I remember this was a keytop inscription on a keyboard for an Arabic/Persian typesetting machine that I use many years ago...) Are there any decisions as to support other regional languages such as Kurdish or Azeri? If the ultimate goal is to support several languages using an extended Arabic glyphset via one and the same keyboard, my feeling is that some Shift or Alt key positions may have better been reserved for special characters of these languages, or defined as deadkeys to create certain accented characters (as in case of the US International keyboard). Best regards, Peter E. Hauer Linguasoft Vienna, Austria -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roozbeh Pournader Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 2:56 PM To: The FarsiWeb Mailing List; Persian Computing list Subject: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows Using Microsoft's new keyboard creation tool, we created a keyboard layout based on the latest committee draft for the future national Iranian keyboard layout. You can download it at: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/farsitools/persiankeyboard.zip?downlo ad Important Note: This only works for Windows 2000, Windows XP, and Windows Server 2003. More Important Note: Please provide feedback, if you have any. Otherwise this may become a national standard and then suddenly you may start to nag ;-) Installation Instructions = 1. Download the ZIP file, and unpack it. 2. Go to the directory where you have unpacked the ZIP file, and double-click the file called 'Persian.msi' (or right-click on it and choose 'Install'). Follow the instructions. 3. Go to the keyboard layouts section of your Control Panel, and choose the Farsi layout to edit. In the small Windows that pops up, choose Farsi in the first dropdown dialog, and Persian experimental layout in the second. Press OK a few times. The new Persian layout should now replace the old MS layout. Known bugs == 1. Shift-Space doesn't work. You should use Shift+B for inserting Zero Width Non-Joiner. 2. This is a Windows feature: Ctrl+Shift will act like AltGr/right Alt. If you have shortcut keys assigned to them, they may start to act in a weird way. ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Linguasoft wrote: Thanks for your efforts to provide us with an experimental version of the new standard keyboard layout for Persian ! You're welcome Peter. But please don't propagate it much, since that may be changed. I tried the keyboard in Word2000/Win2000, using Arial Unicode MS which displays all glyphs that can be generated via the keyboard except Riyal sign and Subscript alef. Rial sign is Unicode 3.2. Subscript Alef is Unicode 4.0. Microsoft has not enough time to implement them for you. I am not quite sure in which context standalone versions of maddah, hamzah above and hamzah below are used, but assume they are there because they are in the Unicode standard. They are not the standalone ones. These are *combining* Maddah, Hamza Above, and Hamza Below. But since these were only encoded in Unicode 3.0, and Windows/Office 2000 only handles pre-2.1 characters properly, they appear as standalones ones to you. Try the keyboard with SC Unipad, for example, and you'll see. Standard shortcuts of Word for C, R, and T also work with the Persian keyboard. Interesting news. I didn't know about them at all. What does not work is Word's AutoCorrect option for smart quotes, i.e. neither quotation mark (U+0022) nor apostrophe (U+0027) are converted into their smart equivalents; I wonder if this feature is keyboard-(dll)-related but if it is, I suggest to implement it as well as many users, especially in bilingual context, may want to use typographically correct English quotation marks. We have no clue how to fix that even if that is a desired effect. For me, that would be undesired. The quotation mark and the apostrophe (and a few others) were only added to help manual entry of rich text (like TeX, XML, and HTML) in a text editor without having the need to switch the layout very often. How would you input ZSNJ, and RTL/LTR markers with the new keyboard? (These special characters aren't mentioned in keyboard.png as well.) What is ZSNJ? If you mean ZWNJ, it is Shift+B. I also don't know what you mean by RTL and LTR markers. If you mean the Bidirectional control characters, they are at AltGr+9,0,I,O,P,[,]. I also wonder whether there is any accepted standard to show alef maqsura on keytops. In keyboard.png, you use an initial shape of ya without dots which may be misleading; how about using isolated ya without dots but with a superscript alef (I remember this was a keytop inscription on a keyboard for an Arabic/Persian typesetting machine that I use many years ago...) In a Persian context, you should only use Alef Maksura (a.k.a the dotless Arabic Yeh) only in initial and medial form. This is required when one needs to type a few Koranic quotes. An isolated Yeh without dots with a superscript Alef over it should be typed using the Persian Yeh and then a superscript Alef (D, Shift-V). Are there any decisions as to support other regional languages such as Kurdish or Azeri? The general attitude in the commitee is to support those languages if enough information is provided. We need to know about the exact list of characters each need, and their estimated frequency/importance. If the ultimate goal is to support several languages using an extended Arabic glyphset via one and the same keyboard, my feeling is that some Shift or Alt key positions may have better been reserved for special characters of these languages, or defined as deadkeys to create certain accented characters (as in case of the US International keyboard). We are not trying an extended Arabic set. But we'd love a layout that is able to support all major minority languages of Iran, although optimized for Persian. We may even try to create layouts optimized for them if we can find the expertise. But we are not interested in Pashto, Sindhi, or Urdu at all, while we are very interested in Azeri, Kurdish, Baluchi, ... roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, C Bobroff wrote: In a textbook, you might want to say, This here is a maddah. In the past, I wanted to show what a superscript alif compared to fatha looks like and was not able to You should put them either over a space, or a Tatweel (U+0640, the base line extender that looks like a '_'). roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
Depends on how you define easy. Try! If you don't redefine your concept of easy, people are going to say it's too hard to bother with this script and that's why they advocate romanizing Persian. Do you know just to enable FA input on a Windows machine is asking too much for newbies? You should see the emails filled with anguish I get. Your instructions are no good! The farsi editor isn't downloading, etc. And these newbies are the same ones most apt to have great content worthy of the technology too but they just get too frustrated at the word-processing stage and give up. I was even joking with someone at MS that a first-time user should be able to sit down at the comptuer and say, Please activate Persian and automatically FA will be enabled, Word will fire up, nastaliq font at reasonable fontsize selected and RTL/right-aligned mode on and on-screen keyboad at your service! Even this probably won't be sufficient... -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
